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View Full Version : 22LR is just a little bit more powerful than a pellet air rifle


sonicenergy
09-04-2012, 5:50 PM
i just shot my 22LR PISTOL, phoenix arms hp22a WITH CCI MINIMAG at a distance aboout 5 yard, target is 5 pieces of solid wood floor stacked together. the bullet cannot even go through it..... even my air rifle can do this.... anyone test it before?

UPDATE... I think my word make you guys confuse, I meant, the 22LR bullet went through 3 pieces of wood, my air soft bullet can go through 1 piece of wood, I just talk about this to one of my friend, and we just realize that my air soft rifle is 1200fps, and the .22lr CCI MINI MAG IS ABOUT 1235 FPS, so, the 22LR is just a little bit more powerful than my air pellet rifle

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004V956P0/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=19396421016&hvpos=1o4&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16813995112016871737&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&ref=asc_df_B004V956P0

Crosman Optimus .177 Caliber/1200 FPS Break Barrel Pellet Air Rifle with Hardwood Stock

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21603Li9FEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/63200.jpg

repubconserv
09-04-2012, 5:54 PM
post a vid if you can

The only explanation I can think of is it is a pistol barrel and less velocity... though I dont know too much about that... try 22 rifle and see if you get similar results

Merc1138
09-04-2012, 6:05 PM
First, unless you've got like a 14"+ barrel on that pistol, you're not going to get the full velocity out of .22lr.

Second, yeah. It's not super powerful, it's .22lr. What is it you're expecting it to do?

roushstage2
09-04-2012, 6:41 PM
A 92 year old man in Kentucky killed a home invader yesterday with a single .22LR round. It is a bit more powerful than air soft, yeah. It's not a .30-06, but it'll still do damage. Are you shooting through those 5 pieces of wood with an air soft pistol too, or a rifle? As others have said, it's probably the short barrel that's doing it.

trob
09-04-2012, 7:12 PM
My dad shot himself in the thigh with a 22lr and it broke his femur in 2 places....I'd like to see your airsoft do that.

nick
09-04-2012, 7:17 PM
You seriously want him to shoot your father.in the thigh with his airsoft gun? :p

XVIga_Rob
09-04-2012, 7:36 PM
Try another pistol, with the same ammo, yardage, & target. Results will vary.

ejhc11
09-04-2012, 7:39 PM
Your air rifle would over penetrate body tissue and the assailant would just hack you to death before you know it. The CCI minimag shot at body tissue would not go thru but would wreak a larger wound channel to slow the assailant down, giving you a few precious extra seconds to think about your next move.

MyOdessa
09-04-2012, 7:40 PM
I am not sure about air soft, but there are air rifles more powerful, then .22LR. You only need 10" barrel on .22LR to get almost all velocity.


22LR Barrel Length vs. Velocity.

Barrel length vs velocity seems to always be a topic of interest to most hunters. But with the 22LR cartridge, rifle length barrels can actually reduce the velocity potential of this round.

In the VOL. 9, NO. 4 issue of GUNS & AMMO magazine, Bob Milek wrote an article titled: BARREL LENGTH VS VELOCITY, where he took a number of barrels and guns and cut down the barrels in one inch increments, measuring the velocity loss at each step of the process for a number of centerfires as well as the 22LRs. It's a very interesting article. Here are the velocities recorded for the 22LR starting at 14 inches and going down to 4 inches.

14" = 1,105 fps.
13" = 1,106
12" = 1,110
11" = 1,089
10" = 1,114
..9" = 1,077
..8" = 1,063
..7" = 1,057
..6" = 1,024
..5" = ..959
..4" = ..927 fps.

The 11 inch velocity was an anomoly which turns up from time to time in nearly all firearms testing. As can be seen, any barrel length between 6 and 10 inches will produce very acceptable velocities and energies with the 22LR. Different brands of ammo will produce some minor velocity variations, but not enough to make all that much of a difference in performance. The above tests were conducted with Winchester HV Solids.

In the 1986 issue of SHOOTING TIMES, in an article titled: T/C's SENSATIONAL NEW SHOOTING SYSTEM, the following velocities were recorded for 22LR high velocity loads.

10" = 1,229 fps ...4 group R-P 36-Gr HP REM HV
10" = 1,498 fps ...9 group CCI 32-Gr HP STINGERS
10" = 1,417 fps 1.1 group W-W 29-Gr HP EXTREEMES

In the same article the following comparison was made for different firearms, action types, and barrel lengths with 22LR ammo, given with R-P HV HP ammo:

Colt New Frontier..Sa Revolver.. 4 3/4" ..996 fps
S&W Mod 17 K-22....Da Revolver.. 6".... 1,092 fps
Ruger Single 6.....Sa Revolver.. 6 1/2" 1,028 fps
S&W Mod 41.......Auto Pistol.... 7 3/8" 1,087 fps
S&W Mod 17 K-22....Da Revolver.. 8 3/8" 1,049 fps
Sako Mod 78......Bolt Rifle.... 22 1/2" 1,219 fps
T/C Contender. S/Shot Pistol....10".... 1,229 fps
REM. Factory Data.... Test BL...18 1/2" 1,280 fps

An interesting point is that revolvers, irrespective of barrel length, showed much less velocity loss than is usually attributed to them compared to the closed breach auto or T/C Contender firearms.

MasterrEugene
09-04-2012, 8:27 PM
try testing your 5 boards test with a rifle chambered in 22lr. it is my understanding that 22lr rifles are more powerful than 22lr handguns, but someone please correct me if i'm wrong.

Bartin
09-04-2012, 8:57 PM
It depends on the firearms and projectiles in question. The CCI mini mag (in a rifle) will outperform any air gun that I have handled.

It really doesn’t matter what propels the projectile, all that matters when it comes to ballistic performance is weight, shape and speed. If you dropped a 500 grain 50bmg round off the empire state building it would wreak havoc when it hit the deck.

Ignoring air resistance, a 500 grain bullet dropped off the empire state building would reach the pavement with ~102ft/lbs of energy, the equivalent of the muzzle energy of a 36 grain .22lr bullet being fired at ~1130ft/s

Adding drag a 500 grain bullet dropped off the empire state building would reach the pavement with ~52ft/lbs of energy, the equivalent of the muzzle energy of a 36 grain .22lr bullet being fired at ~810ft/s which actually isn't that much and likely wouldn't "wreak havoc".

courage1
09-04-2012, 10:34 PM
lol comparing a toy to a firearm

Vampyredark
09-04-2012, 10:46 PM
I like what courage1 said. Anyway, my grandpa killed a bear with a 22lr. He is not a liar either. I am guessing he had a 10/22 but still....
People underestimate that a 22 bullet is not deadly - it is. All bullets have one purpose, which is to destroy/cause damage to what it hits. Nothing more. From shooting targets (plinking) to firing it at people in war, it has one purpose.

stevec223
09-04-2012, 11:12 PM
sounds like a awesome airsoft....where can i get one of those ?????

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:37 AM
sounds like a awesome airsoft....where can i get one of those ?????

please see UPDATE

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:39 AM
I am not sure about air soft, but there are air rifles more powerful, then .22LR. You only need 10" barrel on .22LR to get almost all velocity.

MY AIR RIFLE RATES 1200FPS, THE 22LR AMMO RATES ABOUT 1235FPS

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:42 AM
I THINK even I use RUGER 10/22, the power from a 22LR CCI MINI MAG still almost the same as a 1200FPS air rifle, because they rate the almost the same

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:44 AM
lol comparing a toy to a firearm

A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

courage1
09-05-2012, 2:46 AM
you do realize an airsoft is different then a pellet gun right? and its still comparing toys to a firearm.

Ed_Hazard
09-05-2012, 2:48 AM
A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.


Try the test at 30yds and see which does what.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:48 AM
you do realize an airsoft is different then a pellet gun right? and its still comparing toys to a firearm.



A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:51 AM
Try the test at 30yds and see which does what.

I think the firearm will be more powerful anyways, because the bullet of 22LR has more mass and velocity THAN THE .177 Caliber Pellets

Ed_Hazard
09-05-2012, 2:53 AM
I think the firearm will be more powerful anyways, because the bullet of 22LR has more mass and velocity THAN THE .177 Caliber Pellets

Bingo.

At relatively short distance the air rifle might seem powerfull, but it's effective range is much less than that of the 22lr.

courage1
09-05-2012, 2:56 AM
A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

it is a toy. and just some helpfull criticism if you would spell even halfway decent people would be able to understand you

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 2:58 AM
Bingo.

At relatively short distance the air rifle might seem powerfull, but it's effective range is much less than that of the 22lr.


I see, but that is fun to know too, at relatively short distance, a small 22LR pistol has similar power to a air pellet rifle.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 3:07 AM
it is a toy. and just some helpfull criticism if you would spell even halfway decent people would be able to understand you

I don't understand you. The 1200 FPS pellet air rifle is not a toy. Maybe our definitions of toy are different. I think that something that it can easily cause injury or death is not a toy. well, it could be a toy, but adult toy.

courage1
09-05-2012, 3:10 AM
I don't understand you. The 1200 FPS pellet air rifle is not a toy. Maybe our definitions of toy are different. I think that something that it can easily cause injury or death is not a toy. well, it could be a toy, but adult toy.

you can get hurt on anything in life. my dirtbike is a toy and i can die on it. an air rifle is a toy. it isnt a real firearm

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 3:15 AM
you can get hurt on anything in life. my dirtbike is a toy and i can die on it. an air rifle is a toy. it isnt a real firearm

OK, WHATEVER, it is a gun forum, not a debate arena.

Lurch762
09-05-2012, 3:16 AM
UPDATE... I think my word make you guys confuse, I meant, the 22LR bullet went through 3 pieces of wood, my air soft bullet can go through 1 piece of wood, I just talk about this to one of my friend, and we just realize that my air soft rifle is 1200fps, and the .22lr CCI MINI MAG IS ABOUT 1235 FPS, so, the 22LR is just a little bit more powerful than my air pellet rifle

The flaw with your conclusion is you are looking only at the velocity of the round and not the bullet weight. The formula for bullet energy is: bullet weight (in grains) x velocity˛ / 450400. So if your air rifle can give you 1200fps velocity and a typical .177 caliber pellet is 8 grains, that gives you a muzzle energy of 25.57 ft-lbs. The CCI mini mag is about 1260fps from a 16" barrel so lets guesstimate that you'd get about 900fps from the 3" barrel on your HP22A. So a 36 grain bullet travelling 900fps would give you a muzzle energy of 64.74 ft-lbs. That's more than 2.5x the energy as your air rifle. Hardly "just a little bit more".

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 3:23 AM
The flaw with your conclusion is you are looking only at the velocity of the round and not the bullet weight. The formula for bullet energy is: bullet weight (in grains) x velocity˛ / 450400. So if your air rifle can give you 1200fps velocity and a typical .177 caliber pellet is 8 grains, that gives you a muzzle energy of 25.57 ft-lbs. The CCI mini mag is about 1260fps from a 16" barrel so lets guesstimate that you'd get about 900fps from the 3" barrel on your HP22A. So a 36 grain bullet travelling 900fps would give you a muzzle energy of 64.74 ft-lbs. That's more than 2.5x the energy as your air rifle. Hardly "just a little bit more".

Your explanation does make sense. But my conclusion is, my 22LR pistol can break 2 more piece of solid wood.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 3:29 AM
I just found this from the internet

1200 fps to 1600 fps with .22 bullets.Your air gun may be fast at the muzzle but the weight of the projectile(bullet) makes a big difference.Velocity and Bullet diameter and bullet weight have always been a subject at most campfires.You can launch a bullet at 4000 fps,light bullets lost velocity faster than heavier bullets.Etc,Shoot a popcorn out at 4000 fps and how far does it travel?How much power does it have at 10 feet?Most air rifles I know that shoot 1400fps are .177 cal.The .177 cal will scare off a coyote and may die from the pellet months later.Quit messing around and get a .223 cal center fire.Keep your pellet gun for practice on rats,mice and paper targets.

Trakker
09-05-2012, 4:40 AM
It's also about energy and momentum transfer
Bean bag round dump a lot of energy but won't penetrate. Same with paintballs, they sting and bruise.

Make the projectile smaller but same weight it will penetrate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JMP
09-05-2012, 4:47 AM
That isn't an "airsoft" rifle; it is an air powered pellet gun. No, it isn't a toy.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 5:21 AM
That isn't an "airsoft" rifle; it is an air powered pellet gun. No, it isn't a toy.

sorry, it was my misunderstanding, I though all air gun called airsoft...:mad:
but it is ok, you know what I am trying to say. I meant, pellet air rifle.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 5:22 AM
That isn't an "airsoft" rifle; it is an air powered pellet gun. No, it isn't a toy.

AGREED, IT IS NOT A TOY, IT COULD REALLY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

MyOdessa
09-05-2012, 7:18 AM
AGREED, IT IS NOT A TOY, IT COULD REALLY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

Please stop typing in all caps. It is considered to be impolite.

CSACANNONEER
09-05-2012, 7:29 AM
MY AIR RIFLE RATES 1200FPS, THE 22LR AMMO RATES ABOUT 1235FPS

You do realize that velocity alone does not equal power, don't you? You're arguement is completely flawed because, you don't understand physics or the language you are trying to speak. So, instead of getting your panties in a bunch, why not listen and learn a little bit? I'll be waiting for your post explaining how a 40 grain projectile with a MV of 1235fps is only slightly more "powerful" than an 8 grain projectile starting with a MV of 1200fps. To me, it appears that the peleet gun is just a little over 20% as "powerful" as a .22lr at the muzzle. Of course, when you factor in friction losses, the "power" of the projectile from the airgun quickly becomes even less than the .22lr as the distance from the muzzle increases.

TacticalPlinker
09-05-2012, 7:37 AM
it is a toy. and just some helpfull criticism if you would spell even halfway decent people would be able to understand you

I don't think the OP speaks English. His posts read like spam e-mail or something from an online translator.

I'm sure the facts behind his lack of grammar would lend explanation to his misunderstanding of ballistics, and the difference between firearms and plastic toys.

daveinwoodland
09-05-2012, 7:44 AM
.22 lR testing to 400 yds. Don't think my .22 pellet rifle would match it.

OUM1r_444CY

ParanoidCivilian
09-05-2012, 7:48 AM
The OP and this thread should be buried with his toy.

bruceflinch
09-05-2012, 8:10 AM
^ :iagree:

Bangzoom
09-05-2012, 8:21 AM
i had to um..deal with an opossum in a shed once...he was wedged under a floor board so i could not clearly see its vitals...took alot of shots with a 22 air rifle to deal with it...i should have just gotten a 22 with sub sonic and been done with it in one shot

having said that there are many real good air rifles out there...i saw a vid on youtube of a guy who put a shot right through a wild boar with one...not all air rifles are toys...even Lewis and Clark carried one and hunted big game with it

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 8:49 AM
I don't think the OP speaks English. His posts read like spam e-mail or something from an online translator.

I'm sure the facts behind his lack of grammar would lend explanation to his misunderstanding of ballistics, and the difference between firearms and plastic toys.

If you really care about this, you should go to the Shakespeare's forum. If my thread make you feel like reading a spam e-mail, you can simply close the window and click on different thread posted by the one who can speak perfect English. Picking English grammar error and discuss in a gun forum is probably not the right thing to do here.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 8:56 AM
The OP and this thread should be buried with his toy.

Why don't you bury yourself first?
P.S If you really want to bury this thread, then don't reply. Your response moves this thread to the top again.

therealnickb
09-05-2012, 8:56 AM
MY AIR RIFLE RATES 1200FPS, THE 22LR AMMO RATES ABOUT 1235FPS

How much do the bullet and pellets weigh?

Plus, diameter affects penetration right?

TKM
09-05-2012, 8:59 AM
Troll is how old?

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 9:06 AM
How much do the bullet and pellets weigh?

Plus, diameter affects penetration right?

I already realize the difference during the discussion. Someone already post his calculation on the amount of energy each bullet carries. 22LR carries 2.5 times then .177 pellet.

But from my realistic comparison, such difference only breaks 2 more pieces of hard wood floor. (.177 pellet did 1 piece and .22LR did 3 pieces)

incredablehefey
09-05-2012, 9:08 AM
Im just wondering what language the op speaks natively?

therealnickb
09-05-2012, 9:08 AM
I already realize the difference during the discussion. Someone already post his calculation on the amount of energy each bullet carries. 22LR carries 2.5 times then .177 pellet.

But from my realistic comparison, such difference only breaks 2 more pieces of hard wood floor. (.177 pellet did 1 piece and .22LR did 3 pieces)

2.5 x vs 3 to 1. You are in the ball park right?

Bangzoom
09-05-2012, 9:09 AM
are we talkin 3/4 inch oak flooring? or the new cheap crap?

Merc1138
09-05-2012, 9:24 AM
I already realize the difference during the discussion. Someone already post his calculation on the amount of energy each bullet carries. 22LR carries 2.5 times then .177 pellet.

But from my realistic comparison, such difference only breaks 2 more pieces of hard wood floor. (.177 pellet did 1 piece and .22LR did 3 pieces)

As people have tried pointing out to you..

First, you will not get full velocity of .22lr out of a handgun. Not all of the powder has burned to propel the bullet forward by the time the bullet has left the barrel. This is why velocity goes up as barrel length increases. You're not getting 1235fps out of minimags with a 3" or 5" barrel on your hp22a.

Second, if you're shooting CCI minimag hollowpoints, you won't get as much penetration as a solid/pointed round. They're supposed to work that way.

Third, as CSACANNONEER pointed out, that .177 airgun is going to lose power as the distance increases. From what I've read you tried this at 5 yards, try it again at say... 20-50 yards and see what happens.

You've got a good mindset of being willing to try something to learn, however you should also listen to what people are telling you.

Meety Peety
09-05-2012, 10:24 AM
Damn, you guys got trolled by someone who barely even speaks English. This is a victory for trolls everywhere.

JMP
09-05-2012, 10:54 AM
This thread makes the 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 threads look intelligent.

roushstage2
09-05-2012, 11:01 AM
This thread makes the 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 threads look intelligent.
Bigger is better :43:

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 11:25 AM
Bigger is better :43:

i wish .50BMG is legally allowed in CA

CasperSYTFU
09-05-2012, 11:29 AM
Couple posts talking about .22 for self defense.

I'm sorry but a .22 would be the last firearm I reached for in my closet in a bad situation.

Survival situation outdoors... absolutely. But not "bump in the night" situations.

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 11:35 AM
Couple posts talking about .22 for self defense.

I'm sorry but a .22 would be the last firearm I reached for in my closet in a bad situation.

Survival situation outdoors... absolutely. But not "bump in the night" situations.

Is it because you think 22LR is too weak to stop the enemy? My opinion is the accuracy of 22LR is better and if you shot enough rounds to enemy, you can still stop him. If I am facing a death threat I will pick up my 22LR and keep shooting like a full auto gun until enemy is down..

sonicenergy
09-05-2012, 11:37 AM
Couple posts talking about .22 for self defense.

I'm sorry but a .22 would be the last firearm I reached for in my closet in a bad situation.

Survival situation outdoors... absolutely. But not "bump in the night" situations.

I never face a survival situation. So I have no idea. What pistol will you recommend for bump in the night situation ?

mosinnagantm9130
09-05-2012, 1:01 PM
:facepalm: = This whole thread

i wish .50BMG is legally allowed in CA

It is

CSACANNONEER
09-05-2012, 1:14 PM
i wish .50BMG is legally allowed in CA

Your wish came true. 50BMGs can be 100% legal in CA. I own two of them. This is another example of you not knowing what you are talking about.

CasperSYTFU
09-05-2012, 1:15 PM
:facepalm: = This whole thread

Exactly. I tried to not even reply but couldn't help myself :(

Izzy43
09-05-2012, 2:33 PM
I see, but that is fun to know too, at relatively short distance, a small 22LR pistol has similar power to a air pellet rifle.

Please go back and read thru your posts in this thread. You have contradicted yourself several times. There is no way on God's earth that a .17cal, 8 grain pellet fired from an air rifle is going to outperform or even be equal to a .22lr 36gr HighVelocity bullet fired from a handgun. Are air rifles powerful and can they cause injury or even death, yes they can. That's not the question that you asked in your original post.

Use Google and search for ballistics data on pellets and .22lr ammunition and you will learn why I say what I say is true. Learn about different bullet types and how they perform in penetration and expansion tests. All available on the internet. Get informed, you'll be a better shooter.

Edit: I have attached two ballistics charts for you to study. CCI-1 is the one for CCI Mini-Mags, 36gr bullet. Pellet-1 is for a .17cal, 8grain pellet fired at 1200fps. Note the energy of these two when compared at the muzzle and at 50yds. That should tell you which of these is more powerful..Even comparing the energy of a pellet at the muzzle of an air rifle (1200fps) to the energy of the .22lr from a handgun (assume 1000fps, such as it is around 50yds from a rifle) the .22lr from a handgun still has at least 3X the energy of the pellet. Try your penetration test using a hollow point pellet and see what the results are compared to a .22lr hollow point bullet. Then try a solid pellet compared to a solid .22lr bullet, I think you will see quite a different result.

courage1
09-05-2012, 5:54 PM
I don't think the OP speaks English. His posts read like spam e-mail or something from an online translator.

I'm sure the facts behind his lack of grammar would lend explanation to his misunderstanding of ballistics, and the difference between firearms and plastic toys.

thats what i was thinking..

D-rek07
09-05-2012, 9:36 PM
Please go back and read thru your posts in this thread. You have contradicted yourself several times. There is no way on God's earth that a .17cal, 8 grain pellet fired from an air rifle is going to outperform or even be equal to a .22lr 36gr HighVelocity bullet fired from a handgun. Are air rifles powerful and can they cause injury or even death, yes they can. That's not the question that you asked in your original post.

Use Google and search for ballistics data on pellets and .22lr ammunition and you will learn why I say what I say is true. Learn about different bullet types and how they perform in penetration and expansion tests. All available on the internet. Get informed, you'll be a better shooter.

Edit: I have attached two ballistics charts for you to study. CCI-1 is the one for CCI Mini-Mags, 36gr bullet. Pellet-1 is for a .17cal, 8grain pellet fired at 1200fps. Note the energy of these two when compared at the muzzle and at 50yds. That should tell you which of these is more powerful..Even comparing the energy of a pellet at the muzzle of an air rifle (1200fps) to the energy of the .22lr from a handgun (assume 1000fps, such as it is around 50yds from a rifle) the .22lr from a handgun still has at least 3X the energy of the pellet. Try your penetration test using a hollow point pellet and see what the results are compared to a .22lr hollow point bullet. Then try a solid pellet compared to a solid .22lr bullet, I think you will see quite a different result.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the second chart for .17HMR?
Edit: It is only titled .17HMR

roushstage2
09-05-2012, 11:23 PM
It is .17HMR. Here's a bit of a lengthy article on BB ballistics though: http://www.beemans.net/airgun%20ballistics.htm

durandal
09-06-2012, 12:13 AM
A 1200 FPS AIR RIFLE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A TOY, IT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

That is incredibly annoying.

stevec223
09-06-2012, 1:00 AM
ok heres the picture.....a airsoft rifle or pistol shoots plastic balls about 3-400 fps---a plastic toy......a crosman pellet rifle shoots .177 0r .22 cal. lead ect pellets around 1000 fps---not a toy.....a .22 cal rifle or pistol shoots rimfire ammunition---not a toy.....sorry for misunderstanding....i still want a airsoft for cat patrol...lol...cheers..

NulodPBall
09-06-2012, 1:06 AM
AGREED, IT IS NOT A TOY, IT COULD REALLY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

SonicEnergy: you might want to edit your update and remove the word "airsoft" from it. I believe that's why people are using the word "toy" because an airsoft BB is plastic, and is usually shot out of a "toy" gun, even if that gun is worth $600.00.

Have fun and don't poke your eye out :) (movie reference)

NulodPBall
09-06-2012, 1:09 AM
ok heres the picture.....a airsoft rifle or pistol shoots plastic balls about 3-400 fps---a plastic toy......a crosman pellet rifle shoots .177 0r .22 cal. lead ect pellets around 1000 fps---not a toy.....a .22 cal rifle or pistol shoots rimfire ammunition---not a toy.....sorry for misunderstanding....i still want a airsoft for cat patrol...lol...cheers..

LOL: My airsoft is actually for rabbit control...I don't want to have to skin them, I just don't want them to eat my plants. My dog takes care of the cats :) (I think it's actually the local coyote population that keeps loose cats from returning home)

Izzy43
09-06-2012, 6:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the second chart for .17HMR?
Edit: It is only titled .17HMR

I used the .17hmr but modified the bullet weight to 8grains and velocity to 1200fps so basically its the ballistics for a pellet.

Ogre8472
09-06-2012, 9:30 AM
Izzy did a great job in his post so please read it carefully!

The bc of must pellets is much closer to .0190 or lower. In his post he did a great job bring the specs to as close as possibe to the real thing.


LOL: My airsoft is actually for rabbit control...I don't want to have to skin them, I just don't want them to eat my plants. My dog takes care of the cats :) (I think it's actually the local coyote population that keeps loose cats from returning home)

How on earth do you hunt rabbits with an airsoft gun?!? Like Izzy said after reading this thread most people in here think an airsoft gun and pellet gun are the same.:facepalm:
They couldnt be more different.

An airsoft gun shoots 6mm plastic ball that the manufacturers call "bbs" the look like real firearms but are ment to have "war games" without killing each other.

http://www.crosman.com/mediacenter2012/Airsoft/Marines/MCKT02.jpg

Pellet guns, rifles or pistols use rifled barrels to sent a pellet to a target. BBs....the real bbs are made from metal like copper or zink alloys the travel 500fps or faster.

This is a pellet for hunting.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/ogre8472/2012-05-11_20-01-22_530.jpg

D-rek07
09-06-2012, 12:38 PM
How on earth do you hunt rabbits with an airsoft gun?!? Like Izzy said after reading this thread most people in here think an airsoft gun and pellet gun are the same.:facepalm:
They couldnt be more different.

I don't think he is trying to kill them. That's why he said he doesn't want to skin them, he only wants to scare them off.

Sardine
09-06-2012, 3:50 PM
Looks to me like you don't have an air soft to begin with. Me crosmans in 177 or 22 cal generate up to 1200 fps same as der 22lrs. They are not toys, these crosmans, it says that on the box. difference is the weight of the projectiles. That's why the lr goes deeper.

MasterrEugene
09-06-2012, 5:09 PM
you can get hurt on anything in life. my dirtbike is a toy and i can die on it. an air rifle is a toy. it isnt a real firearm

I think that's beside the point. The notion of getting too comfortable with anything resembling a firearm with said capability can be dangerous. I'm sure you don't need me telling you, but accidents do happen. Not too tremendously long ago i read about a boy being shot by a pellet rifle and dying. This being a firearm forum, many of the members may tend to use the same firearm rules with even pellet rifles, and rightly so.

stix213
09-06-2012, 6:17 PM
MY AIR RIFLE RATES 1200FPS, THE 22LR AMMO RATES ABOUT 1235FPS

The mass of the projectile is just as important as FPS. Mass of a 22LR will be considerably higher than your air rifle pellet.

A typical .45ACP will be pushing only around 850 FPS, but I'd rather be standing in front of your pellet gun, for example.

Fadedline
09-06-2012, 6:27 PM
Darn, my 45acp is only 850fps. It's weaker than your pellet gun. :D

NulodPBall
09-06-2012, 11:47 PM
I don't think he is trying to kill them. That's why he said he doesn't want to skin them, he only wants to scare them off.

+1. I speak English :)

I think I know what the OP meant originally, and I think he understands his mistake but he really should edit some of his original airsoft references so people stop "banging" on him for the holes in what he posts.

vintagearms
09-06-2012, 11:50 PM
Bigger is better :43:

Not always. Shot placement is where its at!

roushstage2
09-06-2012, 11:57 PM
We were talking about the OP trolling, so I took the opportunity...
Here we are, lol :)

johnny1290
09-07-2012, 12:40 AM
oh my god. Why did I read this to the end?

This is a victory for all trolls LOL

I've got a phoenix arms .22. The barrel is what, 3"? Judging by a lot of posts I'm surprised people are even old enough to own a gun around here. Maybe I was more stupider when I was 22 than I remember, also.

Lurch762
09-07-2012, 5:10 AM
If I could just get a wet noodle up to 1400fps, I'd have the ultimate HD weapon.

TKM
09-09-2012, 4:36 PM
Looks to me like you don't have an air soft to begin with. Me crosmans in 177 or 22 cal generate up to 1200 fps same as der 22lrs. They are not toys, these crosmans, it says that on the box. difference is the weight of the projectiles. That's why the lr goes deeper.

Sock puppet with a hole in the toe.

courage1
09-12-2012, 3:49 PM
I think that's beside the point. The notion of getting too comfortable with anything resembling a firearm with said capability can be dangerous. I'm sure you don't need me telling you, but accidents do happen. Not too tremendously long ago i read about a boy being shot by a pellet rifle and dying. This being a firearm forum, many of the members may tend to use the same firearm rules with even pellet rifles, and rightly so.

i know man. he was talking about a airsoft gun at the beginning thats why i was saying toy because an airsoft is a toy.

i know pellet rifles can be dangerouse.

oh and im guessing the guy that posted this whole thing is a troll..

Chaos47
09-12-2012, 5:20 PM
A projectile has many factors acting upon it traveling thru air.
Air Resistance, Gravity, Momentum are the three greatest.

Posters have been mentioning Velocity (FPS) and Mass but what they are missing is Momentum.

Ρ=mv
momentum = mass * velocity

The greater the mass the greater the momentum.
Two objects traveling at (nearly) the same velocity but with different masses will have different momentum.

Also the 35 feet per second really isn't a trivial difference if you take a second and think about it.

The object with the smaller mass has a smaller momentum, ie the pellet so it will not penetrate as far.

For example:
Bullet:
Ρ=40gr * 1235f/s
Ρ= 49400 grft/s

Pellet:
Ρ=7gr * 1200f/s
Ρ= 8400 grft/s

So 49400 - 8400 = 41000 grains feet per second more momentum the bullet has then a pellet.

We can not find the actual impact force because we do not know how much the projectile is accelerating /decelerating.

But I think that the difference in momentum between the two helps show the bullet has much more force. (Almost 6 times as much momentum)

:beatdeadhorse5:

Merc1138
09-12-2012, 5:23 PM
Haven't missed momentum at all. If momentum = velocity x mass, then discussing velocity x mass = discussing momentum. It's up to the airgun guy to remember all of the details from science class :p

Chaos47
09-12-2012, 5:37 PM
Plenty of people have mentioned mass.
And plenty have mentioned velocity.

Not one of you, including you Merc has brought the two together to talk about momentum...

Talking about them separately does not mean you all have been discussing momentum all along by accident.


Edit: I will admit that CSA got closest to it and I think he was hinting at it with this post:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9268101&postcount=38

Merc1138
09-12-2012, 5:53 PM
Plenty of people have mentioned mass.
And plenty have mentioned velocity.

Not one of you, including you Merc has brought the two together to talk about momentum...

Talking about them separately does not mean you all have been discussing momentum all along by accident.


Edit: I will admit that CSA got closest to it and I think he was hinting at it with this post:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9268101&postcount=38

You missed my point. I'll flip it the other way around and maybe you'll get it this time.

If mass x velocity = momtenum. Then discussing mass x velocity = discussing momentum.

Izzy43
09-12-2012, 6:24 PM
Are not we really discussing Energy of the projectile? If so then: Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450 (in ft/lbs). There are 450450 grains in 1 lb.

This would reveal the energy (power) of the projectile (bullet/pellet) as it exits the barrel (barrel length being equal) of the two projectiles in question.

Pellet: 7grs * 1200fps ^2 / 450450 = 22.38 ft/lbs
.22 bullet: 40grs * 1200fps ^2/450450 = 127.88 ft/lbs

As I believe that energy will bleed off at the same rate over distance for both projectiles it is easy to see that the bullet will retain much more energy for a longer distance (time).

Or am I off base here?

Bartin
09-12-2012, 6:40 PM
Are not we really discussing Energy of the projectile? If so then: Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450 (in ft/lbs). There are 450450 grains in 1 lb.

This would reveal the energy (power) of the projectile (bullet/pellet) as it exits the barrel (barrel length being equal) of the two projectiles in question.

Pellet: 7grs * 1200fps ^2 / 450450 = 22.38 ft/lbs
.22 bullet: 40grs * 1200fps ^2/450450 = 127.88 ft/lbs

As I believe that energy will bleed off at the same rate over distance for both projectiles it is easy to see that the bullet will retain much more energy for a longer distance (time).

Or am I off base here?

you covered it. You don't see a lot of discussions involving grains feet per second. Not sure how Chaos missed that

orangeusa
09-12-2012, 6:41 PM
If you really care about this, you should go to the Shakespeare's forum. If my thread make you feel like reading a spam e-mail, you can simply close the window and click on different thread posted by the one who can speak perfect English. Picking English grammar error and discuss in a gun forum is probably not the right thing to do here.

Why don't you bury yourself first?
P.S If you really want to bury this thread, then don't reply. Your response moves this thread to the top again.

You are not playing nice. Retrieve your airgun and leave the range.

.

orangeusa
09-12-2012, 6:43 PM
You nailed it. You can do it energy or power (energy x time ). Either will show a 22LR blows away airsoft.

22 WMR, on the other hand... is something to behold. :)

Are not we really discussing Energy of the
projectile? If so then: Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450 (in ft/lbs). There are 450450 grains in 1 lb.

This would reveal the energy (power) of the projectile (bullet/pellet) as it exits the barrel (barrel length being equal) of the two projectiles in question.

Pellet: 7grs * 1200fps ^2 / 450450 = 22.38 ft/lbs
.22 bullet: 40grs * 1200fps ^2/450450 = 127.88 ft/lbs

As I believe that energy will bleed off at the same rate over distance for both projectiles it is easy to see that the bullet will retain much more energy for a longer distance (time).

Or am I off base here?

doctor_vals
09-12-2012, 7:00 PM
I like what courage1 said. Anyway, my grandpa killed a bear with a 22lr. He is not a liar either. I am guessing he had a 10/22 but still....
People underestimate that a 22 bullet is not deadly - it is. All bullets have one purpose, which is to destroy/cause damage to what it hits. Nothing more. From shooting targets (plinking) to firing it at people in war, it has one purpose.

Ask Russians who was shot in Chechnya by 22lr rifles.
It was very silent, because it was during war time and on distance about 100 yards nobody know from where it came from.
A lot of solders were killed and wounded.

And yes air rifle more powerful than air pistol; 22lr rifle more powerful than 22lr handgun.

PhysicsAngel
09-12-2012, 7:42 PM
Are not we really discussing Energy of the projectile? If so then: Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450 (in ft/lbs). There are 450450 grains in 1 lb.

This would reveal the energy (power) of the projectile (bullet/pellet) as it exits the barrel (barrel length being equal) of the two projectiles in question.

Pellet: 7grs * 1200fps ^2 / 450450 = 22.38 ft/lbs
.22 bullet: 40grs * 1200fps ^2/450450 = 127.88 ft/lbs

As I believe that energy will bleed off at the same rate over distance for both projectiles it is easy to see that the bullet will retain much more energy for a longer distance (time).

Or am I off base here?

Izzy43, I'm sorry to say your equation for energy is incorrect. I'm not sure where you got it, but it seems like the website gave you incorrect information. I've never used this formula and working out the units does not give the units for energy. Where did you get the formula? Was it by chance this site, http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
If so, their logic is flawed. I see that they tried to correct the units by dividing by (450,435) ft/lb, however it doesn't fix the units. Mass is never given in pounds since pounds is a unit of weight. Mass and weight are two completely different things, mass is how much "stuff" is there and weight is the effect of gravity on a mass.

The formula for energy depends on what energy you are looking at. Seeing as this post is about projectile motion I'm guessing that you want to look at kinetic energy, the formula is: KE = 1/2(m)(v^2). Momentum is the easiest way to look at it. Really what's coming into play are forces and you can not figure out the force without knowing the acceleration of the object (in this case we have a negative acceleration). If we had two chronographs, one at the end of the barrel and one at the point of impact then we would have a way to figure out the acceleration. We could calculate how much the projectile has slowed during its transit and we would know the time it took the projectile to travel the distance from the barrel to the target and therefore could calculate the acceleration (change in velocity over time). Force could then be found because F = ma.

Bartin
09-12-2012, 8:05 PM
Izzy43, I'm sorry to say your equation for energy is incorrect. I'm not sure where you got it, but it seems like the website gave you incorrect information. I've never used this formula and working out the units does not give the units for energy. Where did you get the formula? Was it by chance this site, http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
If so, their logic is flawed. I see that they tried to correct the units by dividing by (450,435) ft/lb, however it doesn't fix the units. Mass is never given in pounds since pounds is a unit of weight. Mass and weight are two completely different things, mass is how much "stuff" is there and weight is the effect of gravity on a mass.

The formula for energy depends on what energy you are looking at. Seeing as this post is about projectile motion I'm guessing that you want to look at kinetic energy, the formula is: KE = 1/2(m)(v^2). Momentum is the easiest way to look at it. Really what's coming into play are forces and you can not figure out the force without knowing the acceleration of the object (in this case we have a negative acceleration). If we had two chronographs, one at the end of the barrel and one at the point of impact then we would have a way to figure out the acceleration. We could calculate how much the projectile has slowed during its transit and we would know the time it took the projectile to travel the distance from the barrel to the target and therefore could calculate the acceleration (change in velocity over time). Force could then be found because F = ma.

The equation Izzy uses is roughly correct when using the standard calculation for kinetic energy. Saying there are 450,450 grains in 1lb is the incorrect statement, there are 7,000 grains/lb.
450,450 is ~1/2 (1ft*lbft/ ((grains/lb)* (acceleration due to gravity))) so multiplying that by (m)(v^2) gives you kinetic energy.

Here's the full formula for kinetic energy at the muzzle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy#Calculating_muzzle_energy) that converts weight into mass and grains into lbs. All units cancel properly leaving an energy expressed in ft/lbs of force. Definitely capable of being calculated with the provided data.

Izzy43
09-12-2012, 8:46 PM
Izzy43, I'm sorry to say your equation for energy is incorrect. I'm not sure where you got it, but it seems like the website gave you incorrect information. I've never used this formula and working out the units does not give the units for energy. Where did you get the formula? Was it by chance this site, http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
If so, their logic is flawed. I see that they tried to correct the units by dividing by (450,435) ft/lb, however it doesn't fix the units. Mass is never given in pounds since pounds is a unit of weight. Mass and weight are two completely different things, mass is how much "stuff" is there and weight is the effect of gravity on a mass.

The formula for energy depends on what energy you are looking at. Seeing as this post is about projectile motion I'm guessing that you want to look at kinetic energy, the formula is: KE = 1/2(m)(v^2). Momentum is the easiest way to look at it. Really what's coming into play are forces and you can not figure out the force without knowing the acceleration of the object (in this case we have a negative acceleration). If we had two chronographs, one at the end of the barrel and one at the point of impact then we would have a way to figure out the acceleration. We could calculate how much the projectile has slowed during its transit and we would know the time it took the projectile to travel the distance from the barrel to the target and therefore could calculate the acceleration (change in velocity over time). Force could then be found because F = ma.

I used the formula from this website: http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html

My intent was to show the difference in energy at the muzzle comparing the weight of the two projectiles, 7 and 40 grains. Given that number (energy at the muzzle) it is obvious which projectile will have the greatest impact on the same material at the same distance.

The original post stated that the distance of the shot was 5 yds and I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that there would not be much energy lost from the muzzle to that distance. I was attempting to show the OP that his statement that a .22lr was a little more powerful than an air rifle was not factual. Probably a moot point anyway as the original poster seems to have left the scene.

otteray
09-12-2012, 9:34 PM
sorry, it was my misunderstanding, I though all air gun called airsoft...:mad:
but it is ok, you know what I am trying to say. I meant, pellet air rifle.

And that, folks, is why we don't call magazines "clips.":oji:

Sosoomi
09-12-2012, 10:18 PM
Wow... I wasn't very good at physics but lets assume a scenario whereby Man A has a ..22LR and Man B has a pellet gun... A rifle..I'll be generous....we will issue googles and a football helmet to both 'players'. This is a two stage competition so each fires 2 rounds at 25 yards and two rounds at 50... At each other..:-)

Now the question... Who wants to be Man A and who wants to be Man B....

Remember this is just a scenario for discussion only.... Kids...drunks...and the terminally stupid, please don't try this...

To start it off... I'll wanna be Man A...

You?

Hoshnasi
09-12-2012, 10:18 PM
I acknowledge my humble .22lr is deadlier to small game than my Benjamin .22 air rifle. However, I use 15 gr hunting pellets and boy do they work well on small game up to 60 yards.

I do like hunting with that air rifle though cheap pellets and very quiet.

shovelon
09-13-2012, 8:25 AM
Wow... I wasn't very good at physics but lets assume a scenario whereby Man A has a ..22LR and Man B has a pellet gun... A rifle..I'll be generous....we will issue googles and a football helmet to both 'players'. This is a two stage competition so each fires 2 rounds at 25 yards and two rounds at 50... At each other..:-)

Now the question... Who wants to be Man A and who wants to be Man B....

Remember this is just a scenario for discussion only.... Kids...drunks...and the terminally stupid, please don't try this...

To start it off... I'll wanna be Man A...

You?

This thread just keeps on giving.

Awesome!

:44:

JMP
09-13-2012, 11:40 AM
Let's apply some logic here.

According to this thread
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=619327

.22lr = .223 Rem

Since pellet gun = .22lr

Transitively,

Pellet gun = .223 Rem :shrug: :facepalm:

orangeusa
09-13-2012, 11:55 AM
Wow... I wasn't very good at physicsEnglish. We will issue googles...

Wazza google?

EDIT: Somebody gave this thread 1 star! :)

Sosoomi
09-13-2012, 1:31 PM
[QUOTE=orangeusa;9320015]Wazza

OMG......GOGGLES....

So I take it you are selecting the pellet gun? :p

Falstaff
09-13-2012, 2:01 PM
OP fails to realize that a .22 LR bullet weighs about 3 times as much as a pellet and that just because a projectile achieves the same velocity it doesn't mean it has the same energy...

However , some of the pcp air rifles are getting to the point where they rival firearms performance.

appagohm
09-14-2012, 4:51 AM
A air rirfle is still a gun. One is powered by compressed air and other is powered my a powder creating compressed air...... the idea is about the same.

e=mc^2 (lets not get into KE, wind friction, and other variables). Say we have equal velocity, there is still a X factor... mass. a 22lr bullet will have alot more mass creating more energy.

Real world example:

say you get hit by a baseball going 50 miles... that would hurt

Say you get hit by a Car going 50 miles...... that would kill.

billmaykafer
09-14-2012, 5:45 AM
a mosin nagant M91-30 with 7.62X54R at $.18 cost of 1 bullet will go thru 5 layers. i call my 1941 Izhevsk "air soft" cause i dig sarcasim. cheaper than buying a 10/22 also.