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halfflash
08-29-2012, 8:26 AM
Hi all,
I'm sure that this has been addressed before, but I wasn't able to find the answer here, so a redirect would be great :)

I went to my first IPSC match last month (had a blast, and now I'm hooked), but I saw all of the open class shooters with full capacity magzines, way more than 10 rounds in a 9mm. I was under the impression that these were illegal in CA. Can some one explain to me how the law is circumvented?

707electrician
08-29-2012, 8:29 AM
They are legal if you owned them prior to 2000

Merc1138
08-29-2012, 8:30 AM
It's not being circumvented. Read the sticky thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409

halfflash
08-29-2012, 8:45 AM
So if I'm reading it right, I would have to go out of state, buy new magazines, disassemble them, bring them home, reassemble them, they they are legal to use in CA. BUT if I were caught at a range and questioned by a LEO, I'd probably be ok, because it's legal to own and use them.

But if I were caught bringing the mags into the state fully assembled, it's a felony. But if I were not caught at the boarder, and a LEO couldn't prove how I got the mags, I'd be ok? If thats true, it seems a little childish of CA to make a law like that.

Back to the competition, there were LEOs shooting along with us, and it seemed like no big deal. Like an unwritten rule, at IPSC 9mm guns get full capacity magazines.
Is that accurate?

HighLander51
08-29-2012, 8:45 AM
Hi all,
I'm sure that this has been addressed before, but I wasn't able to find the answer here, so a redirect would be great :)

I went to my first IPSC match last month (had a blast, and now I'm hooked), but I saw all of the open class shooters with full capacity magzines, way more than 10 rounds in a 9mm. I was under the impression that these were illegal in CA. Can some one explain to me how the law is circumvented?

They are not illegal to own them, or use them. By the way, you shot a USPSA match, not IPSC. USPSA is the US division of IPSC. I would shoot at least 2 dozen more matches in your division ( Production or Limited 10) and take at least 2 competition shooting classes before jumping to Limited or Open. There is way, way more to playing the game than magazine capacity.

RazzB7
08-29-2012, 8:49 AM
So if I'm reading it right, I would have to go out of state, buy new magazines, disassemble them, bring them home, reassemble them, they they are legal to use in CA. BUT if I were caught at a range and questioned by a LEO, I'd probably be ok, because it's legal to own and use them.

But if I were caught bringing the mags into the state fully assembled, it's a felony. But if I were not caught at the boarder, and a LEO couldn't prove how I got the mags, I'd be ok? If thats true, it seems a little childish of CA to make a law like that.

Back to the competition, there were LEOs shooting along with us, and it seemed like no big deal. Like an unwritten rule, at IPSC 9mm guns get full capacity magazines.
Is that accurate?

Under that scenario, you would be "manufacturing" a high capacity magazine, also illegal

Lifeon2whls
08-29-2012, 8:51 AM
So if I'm reading it right, I would have to go out of state, buy new magazines, disassemble them, bring them home, reassemble them, they they are legal to use in CA. BUT if I were caught at a range and questioned by a LEO, I'd probably be ok, because it's legal to own and use them.

But if I were caught bringing the mags into the state fully assembled, it's a felony. But if I were not caught at the boarder, and a LEO couldn't prove how I got the mags, I'd be ok? If thats true, it seems a little childish of CA to make a law like that.

Back to the competition, there were LEOs shooting along with us, and it seemed like no big deal. Like an unwritten rule, at IPSC 9mm guns get full capacity magazines.
Is that accurate?

Really???

You need to do some more reading if those are the conclusions you came to. You'll find yourself in some serious trouble.

You can buy parts kits online and have them shipped to your house. YOU CANNOT ASSEMBLE THEM INTO FULL CAPACITY MAGAZINES.

SA227driver
08-29-2012, 8:52 AM
So if I'm reading it right, I would have to go out of state, buy new magazines, disassemble them, bring them home, reassemble them, they they are legal to use in CA. BUT if I were caught at a range and questioned by a LEO, I'd probably be ok, because it's legal to own and use them.

But if I were caught bringing the mags into the state fully assembled, it's a felony. But if I were not caught at the boarder, and a LEO couldn't prove how I got the mags, I'd be ok? If thats true, it seems a little childish of CA to make a law like that.

Back to the competition, there were LEOs shooting along with us, and it seemed like no big deal. Like an unwritten rule, at IPSC 9mm guns get full capacity magazines.
Is that accurate?

Re-read the stickie. The bold statement would be you committing a felony. Assembling "parts" kits is considered "manufacturing".

Outside of finding standard capacity mags in the desert, storage locker, etc;if you didn't have them before the year 2000 ban then you can't have assembled standard capacity mags now.

There is a statute of limitations on the California "high capacity" mag law and burden of proof falls to the State.

halfflash
08-29-2012, 8:56 AM
Highlander, thanks. I'm going to shoot a lot more limited 10 for now. But I want to get a 9mm for funzies, and eventually shoot production. And thanks for the correction on IPSC and USPSA.

I know this has been asked and answered many times on cal guns, but it's still confusing to a new comer. I appreciate your patience.

Renaissance Redneck
08-29-2012, 9:02 AM
Some recent discussions on this forum have also highlighted a deficiency in the original "Hi Cap Mag Sticky". The deficiency is that "nuisance" laws about high cap mags are not mentioned in the original posts.

In Cali, high capacity magazines are classified as nuisances, and they can be impounded by LE and destroyed, without actually charging the possessor with a crime. That would also include mags that are beyond the statute of limitations, where the possessor could not be charged with a crime, but the mags could still be confiscated. While theoretically the nuisance laws should be ignored when one owns a mag legally possessed since before 2000, tell that to the officer that took away the magazine to have it destroyed.

Just a "heads up". I'll try to find the pertinent laws when I get some time.

JTROKS
08-29-2012, 10:24 AM
The LEOs can buy all the hi-cap mags they want. They are exempt.

In my situation I shot USPSA since the early 90s and all the equipment including the hi-cap mags were grandfathered. Some of the competitors you see with brand new mags were more than likely reconditioned with mag kits like I have that had done a few grandfathered mags that developed cracks. You cant build, buy or bring in any new hi-cap mags to be used unless you're LEO. There are Limited 10, revolver and production class for folks jumping in the game with legally owned hi-cap mags.

HighLander51
08-29-2012, 10:58 AM
Highlander, thanks. I'm going to shoot a lot more limited 10 for now. But I want to get a 9mm for funzies, and eventually shoot production. And thanks for the correction on IPSC and USPSA.

I know this has been asked and answered many times on cal guns, but it's still confusing to a new comer. I appreciate your patience.

We run every Saturday at Norco, come hang out with the crew, start time is 0800.

http://nrg.jvdynamics.com/nrg/

Lead Waster
08-29-2012, 11:10 AM
Also, lots of LEOs shoot USPSA, so it could be that they are the ones you see with the 10+ magazines.

Since there is the production division and limited 10 division, there is no need for anything over 10 rounds to be competitive in USPSA. That's the beauty of the divisions and classes, they group SIMILAR equipment together so you are not disadvantaged.

It wouldn't surprise me that the Glock shooters have grandfathered 10+ mags either, since they were so popular even in the 80's and 90's when the standard mags were larger. I remember that before the CA ban, but during the federal AW ban, you could buy 10+ magazines, but not import them or make them (or something like that) so people were selling their 10+ mags for over $100 a piece (legally!)! Now they can make use of those $100 mags!

Gary13
08-29-2012, 11:13 AM
So, a minor now getting into the sport could never shoot Limited as they could not have purchased mags prior to 2000, unless they were really smart and purchased just the mags know that they eventually would want to shoot Limited. Therefore, most competitors will eventually die off and there will be very few competing in this class in the future.

Correct?

HighLander51
08-29-2012, 11:25 AM
So, a minor now getting into the sport could never shoot Limited as they could not have purchased mags prior to 2000, unless they were really smart and purchased just the mags know that they eventually would want to shoot Limited. Therefore, most competitors will eventually die off and there will be very few competing in this class in the future.

Correct?

Show up at a USPSA match, and see how many Limited and Open shooters are less than 30 years old.... Besides it doesn't matter, if you shoot Production, Single Stack, of Limited 10 you are only competing against other shooters in division.

Gary13
08-29-2012, 11:35 AM
Show up at a USPSA match, and see how many Limited and Open shooters are less than 30 years old.... Besides it doesn't matter, if you shoot Production, Single Stack, of Limited 10 you are only competing against other shooters in division.

At our local match there are quite a few younger shooters, including some children of Limited shooters. Some of these shooters will most likely follow their parents and want to shoot Limited(there is one girl, approx age 10, that competes with a full competition rig costing 3x or more than my set up), or already do, but legally they can not.

I know it does not matter for me as I only shoot Production, Single Stack, and eventually Limited 10, and I have no desire to compete in Limited.

JaeOne3345
08-29-2012, 11:44 AM
So, a minor now getting into the sport could never shoot Limited as they could not have purchased mags prior to 2000, unless they were really smart and purchased just the mags know that they eventually would want to shoot Limited. Therefore, most competitors will eventually die off and there will be very few competing in this class in the future.

Correct?

Or they found magazines somebody left on accident and never could locate the owner after a few attempts. Nothing wrong with possession.

CSACANNONEER
08-29-2012, 11:51 AM
Of course, youngsters can compete with mags borrowed from their parents or other shooters as long as the owner is present.

Lead Waster
08-29-2012, 11:55 AM
So if a minor's parents were LEO or otherwise legally owned 10+ mags, can they borrow the magazines for the duration of the match?

I wonder if an "Open 10" division would make any sense. I mean, they still get the fancy optics and compensated guns, but with only 10 rounds maybe?

Some guys shoot Open guns because they have bad eyesight and optical sights make it easier for them, but might not be able to legally own 10+ mags.

In anycase, L-10 adds an interesting division.

In fact I think that it's more fun to have to reload during a match. If I ever get good at production and/or L-10 I'' try out Single Stack (8 rounds for .45) or revolver! Part of the fun for me is the reloading and planning out the stage based on 10 round magazines. Otherwise, you can just run through the whole stage.

CK_32
08-29-2012, 12:01 PM
If you have them use em...

If not SOL. No aquireing them now.

Shouldn't be a problem to borrow someone's or another competitors for the match it self tho. As long as they are actuall pre 2000

CSACANNONEER
08-29-2012, 12:05 PM
Anyone can borrow a high cap mag as long as the owner is present.

Lead Waster
08-29-2012, 12:19 PM
Anyone can borrow a high cap mag as long as the owner is present.

... and I can't imagine a minor's parent saying "OK, son/daughter, here is gun and three 25 rounds magazines. Have fun! I'll be at the mall and come pick you up after!"

Anyway, this is only an issue in a few magazine-capacity-limited states. Realistically, it's hard to get a double stack open gun in CA anyway. I suppose you can do an Open Glock if you've got the mags.

drunktank
08-29-2012, 12:26 PM
Kids who have that much time and money invested in gear tend to have parents who shoot with them - not the type to just drop them off at the range, in my humble opinion.

drunktank
08-29-2012, 12:27 PM
Are everyone's posts italicized for some reason? Or was there something in my water!?

Lead Waster
08-29-2012, 12:31 PM
Are everyone's posts italicized for some reason? Or was there something in my water!?

There is something in your water. Only the quoted text comes up italicized on my browser. Are you sitting a little lopsided maybe? :p

Sakiri
08-29-2012, 12:56 PM
Really???

You need to do some more reading if those are the conclusions you came to. You'll find yourself in some serious trouble.

You can buy parts kits online and have them shipped to your house. YOU CANNOT ASSEMBLE THEM INTO FULL CAPACITY MAGAZINES.

Could you purchase high cap mags that are already "blocked" to only hold 10, and then remove the block?

I know it says "permanently altered" or whatever, but that definition has never been given as to what a permanent block *is*.

Chaos47
08-29-2012, 12:59 PM
Could you purchase high cap mags that are already "blocked" to only hold 10, and then remove the block?

I know it says "permanently altered" or whatever, but that definition has never been given as to what a permanent block *is*.

No. That is still manufacturing.

zfields
08-29-2012, 12:59 PM
Could you purchase high cap mags that are already "blocked" to only hold 10, and then remove the block?

I know it says "permanently altered" or whatever, but that definition has never been given as to what a permanent block *is*.

Well, if its "permanent", it cant be undone. They don't need to clarify obvious words.

Merc1138
08-29-2012, 1:00 PM
Are everyone's posts italicized for some reason? Or was there something in my water!?

Maybe your monitor is crooked? Try checking the cable to make sure that isn't at an angle either.

p7m8jg
08-29-2012, 1:05 PM
Or they found magazines somebody left on accident and never could locate the owner after a few attempts. Nothing wrong with possession.

Now that raises an interesting issue: If you find a high capacity magazine somewheres and keep it, are you breaking the law?

I guess there is that Penal Code section about keeping found property, but you wouldn't run afoul of the Penal Code section on hi-cap magazines since you didn't import, manufacture, purchase, etc....

JeremyS
08-29-2012, 1:10 PM
Gotta say, we should all stop calling standard capacity magazines "hi cap" just because CA and "the media" does. For most of these guns, 10-round magazines are reduced/restricted capacity and the >10 are just standard magazines. My gun normally comes with 19-round magazines, which I wouldn't call hi-cap. That makes 10 reduced and the extended 32-rounders hi cap :p

So... "How are standard capacity magazines being used in competition instead of CA 10-round reduced capacity ones?" ...is the question... :)

p7m8jg
08-29-2012, 1:13 PM
Actually, that's not a bad idea....

Range Rat
08-29-2012, 1:14 PM
This question seems best asked at the compitition.

Merc1138
08-29-2012, 1:21 PM
Gotta say, we should all stop calling standard capacity magazines "hi cap" just because CA and "the media" does. For most of these guns, 10-round magazines are reduced/restricted capacity and the >10 are just standard magazines. My gun normally comes with 19-round magazines, which I wouldn't call hi-cap. That makes 10 reduced and the extended 32-rounders hi cap :p

So... "How are standard capacity magazines being used in competition instead of CA 10-round reduced capacity ones?" ...is the question... :)

It's actually a bad idea because they are defined as "large capacity" in the CA penal code that applies to us, and "hi cap" is just quicker to type. This comes up over and over again on the forum, and until the definition gets removed from the CA penal code, all it's going to do is create confusion.

JeremyS
08-29-2012, 1:35 PM
Yes, obviously CA considers them "large capacity" or "hi capacity" and that's the problem. They're standard capacity. We shouldn't bend to CA's idea of what large capacity means and people should be reminded that it's not >10 that's "large," it's <10 that's "reduced."

Merc1138
08-29-2012, 1:43 PM
Yes, obviously CA considers them "large capacity" or "hi capacity" and that's the problem. They're standard capacity. We shouldn't bend to CA's idea of what large capacity means and people should be reminded that it's not >10 that's "large," it's <10 that's "reduced."

And "standard" capacity for say, a 1911 may mean 7 or 8 rounds which is not what the CA penal code clearly defines as "large capacity". It's a bad idea when it does nothing to help our cause and adds confusion that could result in people getting nailed with a felony.

Standard capacity 1911 .45acp magazine, not an issue to import/manufacture/sell/etc

"standard capacity" glock 17 magazine is a problem(and is legally defined as large capacity) unless you refer to something like the factory 10 round mags.

HighLander51
08-29-2012, 2:06 PM
This question seems best asked at the compitition.

Nobody asks about big sticks at matches, and nobody tells either. Somebody may ask what brand of extensions you are running, and if you like them better than their brand, that's about it.

Open G24 on the left is running an OEM GLock stick at 22 rounds, and the Open G17L on the right a 17 plus 10 Taylor Freelance.

http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image34614.jpg

JeremyS
08-29-2012, 2:11 PM
It's a bad idea when it does nothing to help our cause and adds confusion that could result in people getting nailed with a felony.
I think it helps the cause. It's the same thing as avoiding falling into the trap of saying "assault weapons," and "assault clips" (or just "clips" in general when speaking of magazines), and "cop killer bullets," and whatever other examples could make up a long list. We all fall into the habit of just using the common terms that we hear on the news every day, but they're crafted to add evil, dangerous connotations to these normal things. "hi capacity magazine" has a stigma to it that makes it sound like something evil is being done. I'd just as soon avoid that phrase and call it what it is: a standard mag and a CA reduced mag.

I understand you not wanting to confuse gun owners who may not know better. BUT... we should all know the truth of the matter is not that rogue companies are making hi-cap mags and CA is saving us all from this, but that the norm is the larger capacity and the exception is CA's restriction. The phrasing of it makes it sound like it's the other way around and it just isn't.


Now that raises an interesting issue: If you find a high capacity magazine somewheres and keep it, are you breaking the law? What you do is you keep your mush shut and you don't say a darn thing. There are plenty of ways in which you could legally possess and use a standard capacity magazine in CA. To be prosecuted for breaking the laws related to >10-round mags, the state would have to prove that you imported, manufactured, sold, etc. That's difficult unless you incriminate yourself. Maybe you had it since before the ban, maybe you found it in the woods, maybe maybe whatever. It's legal to have and use and that's all anyone needs to know. Just make sure the state couldn't prove otherwise if it actually wanted to.


My $0.02...

Gryff
08-29-2012, 2:34 PM
Now that raises an interesting issue: If you find a high capacity magazine somewheres and keep it, are you breaking the law?

I guess there is that Penal Code section about keeping found property, but you wouldn't run afoul of the Penal Code section on hi-cap magazines since you didn't import, manufacture, purchase, etc....

In terms of the mag ban, it is legal to keep a standard capacity mag that you find. But there are laws in many cities covering the disposition of found property. Usually, if it is of significant value, you need to turn it in to the authorities and then claim it later if the original owner is not located. Obviously, they would not give them back to you.

But if you were to find few enough that "significant value" doesn't apply, you're fine to keep them.

Merc1138
08-29-2012, 2:51 PM
I understand you not wanting to confuse gun owners who may not know better. BUT... we should all know the truth of the matter is not that rogue companies are making hi-cap mags and CA is saving us all from this, but that the norm is the larger capacity and the exception is CA's restriction. The phrasing of it makes it sound like it's the other way around and it just isn't.



Again, a standard capacity magazine is not always >10 rounds. A large capacity magazine as defined by the PC is >10 rounds.

As often as people get confused by the laws in this state(this thread being an obvious example of that), furthering the confusion by changing already legally defined terms does not accomplish anything for us.

JTROKS
08-29-2012, 3:23 PM
Although I have the open and limited class guns and the hi-cap mags, I can also purchase hi-cap mags legally. For some reason my interest is in Single Stack division. Holsters and mag pouches with the procedures for carrying them can be my regular CCW gear. I shoot my SA 1911 9mm and 10 round mags are max capacity per rules. Major power factor is 40 and up with 8 round max capacity. There are some big name incentives out there to promote the division.

CSACANNONEER
08-29-2012, 3:58 PM
There is a LEGAL DEFINITION of "high capacity magazine" in Ca. Since we are talking legalities, we should probably use the legal terms. When talking about magazines in a conversation which doesn't involve legalities, "normal capacity" could work. But, there is no standard definition of "normal capacity". Hell, M16s were originally issued with 20 round mags. How about M1 Carbines? Would 15 round mags or 30 round mags be "normal capacity"? Would a Drum on a Suomi qualify or would it have to be a stick mag? Yea, the whole "normal capacity" argument is pretty flawed.

Sakiri
08-29-2012, 4:05 PM
Well, if its "permanent", it cant be undone. They don't need to clarify obvious words.

Most of the alterations that I've personally seen are capable of being undone.

Much like the stuff done for SSE.

PA requires shotguns be plugged so they can't hold more than 3 shells. The plug is supposed to be permanent. Most of them are just removable plastic plugs.

Every mag I've seen from the Clinton AWB had modifications to plug them that were able to be easily removed.

How, exactly, is it possible to make it permanent without preventing the mag from being disassembled? Disassembling isn't illegal. Reassembling is... but if it can be taken apart, there is no permanent block.

Semantics I argue. I have no need for more than a 10 rd mag, but I grow annoyed with guns manufactured that come "standard" with 13 round mags and such.

California is so stupid sometimes.

/rant

CSACANNONEER
08-29-2012, 4:08 PM
At least we can still own and use our +10 round mags. Other states with "high capacity" mag laws have required ALL non LEO residents to turn theirs in or ship them out of state. Look at HI, NJ, NW, MA, etc. Hell, even some cities in CO have mag restrictions.

halfflash
08-29-2012, 5:51 PM
So if you happen to have "hi capacity" mags, you can have them, and use them, or loan them out. Even if you miraculously found them. So what is stopping people from buying them elsewhere and just saying they were found in a foot locker?

Sorry officer, I found these 4 glock hi cap mags in my friends garage. And to take any legal action, you have to prove that I purchased, imported, or manufactured them.
I understand that this is illegal, but I'm sure it's done.
I don't see the point of this law, when there are so many ways around it, and no real way to enforce it.

Gryff
08-29-2012, 6:13 PM
You're expecting politicians to be intelligent?

Merc1138
08-29-2012, 6:18 PM
So if you happen to have "hi capacity" mags, you can have them, and use them, or loan them out. Even if you miraculously found them. So what is stopping people from buying them elsewhere and just saying they were found in a foot locker?

Sorry officer, I found these 4 glock hi cap mags in my friends garage. And to take any legal action, you have to prove that I purchased, imported, or manufactured them.
I understand that this is illegal, but I'm sure it's done.
I don't see the point of this law, when there are so many ways around it, and no real way to enforce it.

It's a law written by politicians, it doesn't have to make sense. If you're just realizing this, you'll be in for a shocker when you start looking at a lot of the every day laws most people follow for no reason other than their existence.

hkdad
08-30-2012, 11:11 AM
Just show up at your local uspsa match. Talk to the shooters and ask how it works. I'm pretty sure you will "find" some mags on the dirt which will make it legal since you "found" them... ;)

Press Check
08-30-2012, 12:44 PM
Hypothetically, if LE found one or several 19-round magazines in your possession, there is in fact nothing that could be done, regardless of the pistols manufacture date. LE would have to prove that you manufactured (assembled) the magazine, or imported them into California, which would be nearly impossible. Hypothetically, even if they found a receipt for a rebuild kit, since magazines are not serialized, they could not prove that the assembled magazine was the rebuild kit on the receipt.

Californian's are not required or obligated to divulge how they came to acquire or possess any magazine, but if someone felt compelled to do so, you obviously found the magazine abandoned at the range, abandoned on BLM land, or abondoned at a USPSA match. In short, somewhere that you'd find said magazine. Otherwise, and again, since possession and use is not a crime, you need not respond at all.

At the end of the day, while LE may deduce that someone assembled a standard-capacity magazine, you need far more than an assumption, no matter how plausible the assumption is, to convict someone of a crime in California.

For those inquiring about lending or borrowing, the PC specifies that you are not to lend these magazines. While the borrower will not be convicted of a crime, the lender will. Never say that you borrowed the magazine, or that someone sold you the magazine.

Renaissance Redneck
08-30-2012, 1:18 PM
Hypothetically, if LE found one or several 19-round magazines in your possession, there is in fact nothing that could be done, regardless of the pistols manufacture date.
.

I'm afraid that may not be correct. As I stated above in this thread, and has been discussed recently in other threads, there are nuisance laws about "high capacity" magazines that seem to have been "buried" in the codes. Apparently a re-numbering of existing statutes have caused these laws to be brought to the forefront. According to California law, high capacity magazines are nuisances, and can be confiscated and destroyed, even if no charges can be filed against the possessor. There are exceptions in the law, but unless you qualify for these exceptions, your mags can be taken. If you "found" the mag, or the mag was brought into the state beyond the statute of limitations, and exceptions don't apply (such as if you are LE, or the mags were possessed before 2000), then they can be taken from you. Pretty scary.

Penal Code 32390
Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.

Penal Code 18010
(a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of, importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale, giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a nuisance under any of the following provisions:
(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.
(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state.

halfflash
08-30-2012, 1:22 PM
I think this law is a nuisance, does that mean it can be destroyed aswell? No? Crap...

Quiet
08-30-2012, 1:23 PM
Now that raises an interesting issue: If you find a high capacity magazine somewheres and keep it, are you breaking the law?

I guess there is that Penal Code section about keeping found property, but you wouldn't run afoul of the Penal Code section on hi-cap magazines since you didn't import, manufacture, purchase, etc....

No. You will not be violating any CA laws.

However, if a LEO discovers you acquired them after 01-01-2000 via a non-exempt method, as described in Penal Codes 32400-32450, then those large capacity magazines are legally considered nuisance items and can be legally confiscated by law enforcement. [PC 32390]

Summary:
You will not be charged with a crime, but you will not be able to legally keep them.


Penal Code 32310
Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, commencing January 1, 2000, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 32390
Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.

Penal Code 18010
(a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of, importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale, giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a nuisance under any of the following provisions:
(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.
(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state.

Renaissance Redneck
08-30-2012, 1:25 PM
This is quoted from another thread (by an attorney):

"Thus, the moral of the story is that while you cannot be criminally prosecuted for mere possession of a large-capacity magazine, if you are found in possession of such a magazine by an LEO, unless you can establish that you come within one of the aforementioned exceptions, you can kiss your large-capacity magazine goodbye."

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9173525#post9173525

Press Check
08-30-2012, 1:26 PM
I'm afraid that may not be correct. As I stated above in this thread, and has been discussed recently in other threads, there are nuisance laws about "high capacity" magazines that seem to have been "buried" in the codes. Apparently a re-numbering of existing statutes have caused these laws to be brought to the forefront. According to California law, high capacity magazines are nuisances, and can be confiscated and destroyed, even if no charges can be filed against the possessor. There are exceptions in the law, but unless you qualify for these exceptions, your mags can be taken. If you "found" the mag, or the mag was brought into the state beyond the statute of limitations, and exceptions don't apply (such as if you are LE, or the mags were possessed before 2000), then they can be taken from you. Pretty scary.

Penal Code 32390
Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.

Penal Code 18010
(a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of, importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale, giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a nuisance under any of the following provisions:
(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.
(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state.

Completely aware of the Nuisance Laws, but my post is addressing the legal aspect of legal possession and use, not confiscation, which I think would be the very least of anyone's concerns.

Renaissance Redneck
08-30-2012, 1:27 PM
, does that mean it can be destroyed aswell? No? Crap...

Yes. Also quoted from the attorney I referenced above: "That section provides that weapons (in this case a "large-capacity magazine") that is subject to confiscation as a nuisance, and that are not available to be sold to the public generally, are to "be destroyed in the month of July, next succeeding, or sooner, if necessary to conserve local resources, including space and utilization of personnel who maintain files and security of those weapons."

Renaissance Redneck
08-30-2012, 1:43 PM
Completely aware of the Nuisance Laws, but my post is addressing the legal aspect of legal possession and use, not confiscation, which I think would be the very least of anyone's concerns.

I'm not trying to bust your b@lls on this, as we are certainly on the same side on this issue. But possession IS the central part of this issue as I discuss it. Law enforcement MAY confiscate the mags if you are found in POSSESSION of them, plain and simple. It seems that it is UP TO YOU to prove you own the mags as a member of the "protected" class of possessors. In this case, there is no "presumption of innocence", and LE doesn't have to PROVE anything (beyond a reasonable doubt, or otherwise), because they are not charging you with a crime. That's how I understand it.

You did say: "Hypothetically, if LE found one or several 19-round magazines in your possession, there is in fact nothing that could be done", and that seems to be incorrect.

Now, it doesn't appear that this portion of the law has been "tested" in a court yet, nor anybody had their mags taken, so who knows how it will turn out. But I ask you this; say you are at a range, and a LEO confiscates your high cap mags, and you are not exempt from the law, what are you going to say to him/her? You might tell him/her that possession is NOT against the law (and you'd be right), but he/she says "tough luck; they are a nuisance, and I'm keeping them anyway" (and he/she would ALSO be right!) . Where does one go from there?

EDIT: and by the way, the nuisance laws by their very nature and wording, DO seem make it illegal to possess high cap mags (unless you are exempt). This is entirely at odds with what many folks are saying on the subject, and most opinions in the high-mag sticky. Folks keep saying "possession" is NOT illegal. But the law clearly says this: "any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010 . . . . [and] shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state."

No matter the semantics, it certainly sounds to me like you can't possess those mags. Otherwise, how can they take them?

1911Luvr
08-30-2012, 1:53 PM
Or they found magazines somebody left on accident and never could locate the owner after a few attempts. Nothing wrong with possession.

I've actually acquired a few mags this way, but unfortunately some were for for guns I did not own at the time. I've also seen old broken magazines discarded because (I assume) the person didn't know they could rebuild them. In this instance dumpster diving could payoff! lol

Lead Waster
08-30-2012, 2:38 PM
Well what if, you kept the (legally owned) competition high caps in disassembled state when you were not at the match? So once it's over, you take them apart, stick them in your range bag and head home. Then for some reason, you find a cop looking through your range bag. He sees the magazine parts. Can he take them as a nusance? Or is he then just illegally confiscating parts from you?

Paperchasin
08-30-2012, 2:44 PM
Well what if, you kept the (legally owned) competition high caps in disassembled state when you were not at the match? So once it's over, you take them apart, stick them in your range bag and head home. Then for some reason, you find a cop looking through your range bag. He sees the magazine parts. Can he take them as a nusance? Or is he then just illegally confiscating parts from you?

If the magazine is not assembled, it is not a magazine.

Press Check
08-30-2012, 3:55 PM
I'm not trying to bust your b@lls on this, as we are certainly on the same side on this issue. But possession IS the central part of this issue as I discuss it. Law enforcement MAY confiscate the mags if you are found in POSSESSION of them, plain and simple. It seems that it is UP TO YOU to prove you own the mags as a member of the "protected" class of possessors. In this case, there is no "presumption of innocence", and LE doesn't have to PROVE anything (beyond a reasonable doubt, or otherwise), because they are not charging you with a crime. That's how I understand it.

You did say: "Hypothetically, if LE found one or several 19-round magazines in your possession, there is in fact nothing that could be done", and that seems to be incorrect.

Now, it doesn't appear that this portion of the law has been "tested" in a court yet, nor anybody had their mags taken, so who knows how it will turn out. But I ask you this; say you are at a range, and a LEO confiscates your high cap mags, and you are not exempt from the law, what are you going to say to him/her? You might tell him/her that possession is NOT against the law (and you'd be right), but he/she says "tough luck; they are a nuisance, and I'm keeping them anyway" (and he/she would ALSO be right!) . Where does one go from there?

EDIT: and by the way, the nuisance laws by their very nature and wording, DO seem make it illegal to possess high cap mags (unless you are exempt). This is entirely at odds with what many folks are saying on the subject, and most opinions in the high-mag sticky. Folks keep saying "possession" is NOT illegal. But the law clearly says this: "any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010 . . . . [and] shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state."

No matter the semantics, it certainly sounds to me like you can't possess those mags. Otherwise, how can they take them?

Trust me, you're not busting my balls.

If confronted, and confiscated, more power to LE, and the very least of my concerns. Again, my post addressed the legal aspect of possession and use. In short, to dispell the myth that possession and use of standard capacity magazines is illegal. Civilians assume that you cannot legally own and use them when you certainly can, which is why these threads surface at least once a week.

The bottom line is, who cares if they are confiscated? Most people are far more concerned with being charged with a crime that simply does not exist under the current PC.

Regarding what to say if questioned by LE? As I pointed out, you're under no legal obligation to speak with LE under any circumstances. Unrelated to this specific topic, but civilians have a habit of assisting LE in their own arrests by simply answering what appear to be seemingly harmless questions.

I shoot at Angeles Range, and anyone who shoots there, knows that the range is crawling with on and off duty LE, especially on Thursdays, and that never stopped me from firing 19 consecutive rounds when I owned an XDM. The point is, generally, the only time that LE would care about your magazines is if they were used in the commision of a crime, although I've heard of shooters being hassled on BLM land.

spetsnaz
08-31-2012, 4:42 PM
Just saw some guys at the local outdoor range shooting 30 round mags out of their ak's/ar.

Makes me really want to pick up some parts kit