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VintageDUG
08-27-2012, 5:56 PM
I think I might have bought an evil illegal pistol. After I bought the M&P 9MM I wanted the M&P 22 for practice. I went to my local shop at the end of June and started my ten day wait. The first thing I learned was the magazines were tough to find. I managed to round up five extras and the 22 quickly became a favorite gun. Friends love it, my wife loves it, my son wouldn't put it down. We have put several thousand rounds through it so far.

Today I met up with another Calgunner to PPT a gun I found in the classifieds. Since his FFL of choice was also a range I brought the 22 and a couple other handguns with me to shoot. After the paperwork was complete we got a lane and started putting holes in paper. The seller had just freed a new 1911 so he let me try it out. He expressed interest in the 22 so I let him give it a try. He mentioned how hard they are to find and how lucky I was to get one. He then explained the differences between the standard 22 and the CA compliant version. He then noticed that mine appeared to have a threaded barrel.

On the way home I remembered that the gun came with a small wrench that I thought had no use. At home I tried and it did fit the slots on the barrel. The end unscrewed and it appeared to my noob, untrained eye that a silencer or some other device could be screwed on.

I started researching via Google and I noticed that the CA version of the gun had "CA" on it. I also could not find an exemption for a rim fire pistol for a threaded barrel and a removable mag. So I called the shop that sold me the gun. They seemed a little shocked and asked me to bring it in. We we headed that way anyway, so I grabbed my paperwork and the gun and we stopped in.

We were left at the counter for a long time while records were pulled, phone calls were made, etc, etc. They discovered they had sold four of the threaded barrel versions. They sent me home without the gun and promised to call tomorrow after they make more calls and come up with a fix.

Who knows what the fix will be. I'll update when I get more info.

Chaos47
08-27-2012, 6:10 PM
You are correct there is not exemption for a rimfire pistol to have a threaded barrel and a removable magazine.

Might want to delete this thread as you just admitted to having possession of an illegal "assault weapon" and that the shop is selling off roster "assault weapon" pistols...

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.
(2) In addition and consecutive to the punishment imposed under paragraph (1), any person who transfers, lends, sells, or gives any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle to a minor in violation of paragraph (1) shall receive an enhancement of one year.
(3) Except in the case of a first violation involving not more than two firearms as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), for purposes of this section, if more than one assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is involved in any violation of this section, there shall be a distinct and separate offense for each.
(b) Any person who, within this state, possesses any assault weapon, except as provided in this chapter, is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. However, a first violation of these provisions is punishable by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500), if the person was found in possession of no more than two firearms in compliance with subdivision (c) of Section 12285and the person meets all of the following conditions:
(1) The person proves that he or she lawfully possessed the assault weapon prior to the date it was defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5.
(2) The person has not previously been convicted of a violation of this section.
(3) The person was found to be in possession of the assault weapon within one year following the end of the one-year registration period established pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12285.
(4) The person relinquished the firearm pursuant to Section 12288, in which case the assault weapon shall be destroyed pursuant to Section 12028.

VintageDUG
08-27-2012, 6:16 PM
You are correct there is not exemption for a rimfire pistol to have a threaded barrel and a removable magazine.

Might want to delete this thread as you just admitted to having possession of an illegal "assault weapon" and that the shop is selling off roster pistols...

The shop has the gun, they admitted it was a mistake and they are calling the other three buyers. They plan on making this right, but they don't know as of right now what the "fix" is. They have to make more calls. Possibilities are modding the barrel, replacing the barrel or a new gun.

I have no worries.

bill_k_lopez
08-27-2012, 6:29 PM
Might want to delete this thread as you just admitted to having possession of an illegal "assault weapon" and that the shop is selling off roster pistols...


They discovered they had sold four of the threaded barrel versions. They sent me home with the gun and promised to call tomorrow after they make more calls and come up with a fix.


Lets analyze the facts.

The store ordered gun from distributor/dealer
Distributor/dealer sent the wrong guns to store
Store sold multiple customers the wrong gun w/illegal California features.

All of which is very easily proven by ATF/DOJ going through the FFL's bound book - not really a big deal.

And you think ATF is going to come down on buyer who willingly took the gun back to the store and showed them these mistakes???

---

How hard is this to fix? They'll either have you send the guns back to S&W to get the right barrel on them, or they'll just replace the firearm. If the store is a stand up place they'll pay for any new DROS fees (which I'm sure they will).

N O T A B I G D E A L....

LOW2000
08-27-2012, 6:29 PM
Red loctite IIRC was the "fix" applied to the P22 when Walther had to recall all of the CA models.

VintageDUG
08-27-2012, 6:46 PM
I forgot to mention - the gun did come with the correct ten round magazine.

And if Red Loctite is the fix, do I need to get a repair order or something in writing saying that was what was done?

LOW2000
08-27-2012, 7:06 PM
No, If the shop sold you, and the other buyers, a gun that had a single shot exemption conversion done, since the threaded barrel version isn't rostered, and you have since changed that gun to a normal pistol with a red loctited on barrel (permanent), then everything *should* be kosher.

Quiet
08-28-2012, 7:14 AM
Red loctite IIRC was the "fix" applied to the P22 when Walther had to recall all of the CA models.

And a different barrel cap, one which did not have the wrench flats on it.

No, If the shop sold you, and the other buyers, a gun that had a single shot exemption conversion done, since the threaded barrel version isn't rostered, and you have since changed that gun to a normal pistol with a red loctited on barrel (permanent), then everything *should* be kosher.

Will also need to use a different muzzle device (barrel cap), one that does not facilitate it's removal (no wrench flats).

With the wrench flats on the barrel cap, a person can still remove it even with it being red loctited.

VintageDUG
08-29-2012, 2:47 PM
Spoke to the selling shop today. Only resolution is a full refund, including DROS. They offered to put me #1 in line for a CA version when/if they get some at the same 375 sale price.

So I'm not out that much even though I bought four extra mags and a set of sights. I can easily resell the mags or use them in a CA version when I get one (and I WILL get one).

Also, I did put several thousand rounds through it, so I guess it's all good.

I strongly urge anyone who has one in CA that does not say CA on the slide to check and see if the barrel is threaded.

SLYoteBoy
08-30-2012, 9:49 PM
Im sure even without wrench flats , it still can be removed. Didn't even know they made a M&P pistol in .22 , I thought the M&P 22 was the AR style 22LR Rifle.

VintageDUG
08-31-2012, 8:23 AM
The M&P 15-22 is the rifle. The M&P 22 is the handgun made by Walther that is designed to look and feel like the S&W M&P handgun line. There are three SKUs for the handgun. A 12 round threaded barrel, a 10 round threaded barrel and a 10 round, non threaded barrel with CA on the side designed for sale in CA.

jimster716
08-31-2012, 10:50 PM
The M&P 15-22 is the rifle. The M&P 22 is the handgun made by Walther that is designed to look and feel like the S&W M&P handgun line. There are three SKUs for the handgun. A 12 round threaded barrel, a 10 round threaded barrel and a 10 round, non threaded barrel with CA on the side designed for sale in CA.

Just picked mine up today outta jail. No threaded barrel and 10rd but no CA designation.

Quiet
09-01-2012, 6:41 AM
Just picked mine up today outta jail. No threaded barrel and 10rd but no CA designation.

If the barrel cap has wrench flats on it (see pic), it has a threaded barrel.

http://www.recoilsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/mp22-theaded-barrel.jpg

VintageDUG
09-01-2012, 9:21 AM
I talked to S&W customer service a few days ago and they told me all CA versions have "CA" engraved on the slide because it is a different slide. And of course a different barrel.

Then again, S&W customer service also told me the sights from a 9MM M&P would not fit on the .22, but they do. So your mileage may vary.

redcliff
09-01-2012, 9:22 AM
For those saying Red Loctite is ok to affix a barrel nut, can you back that up? My understanding of the P22 modification was that it was an EPOXY used, not red loctite.

VintageDUG
09-01-2012, 11:50 AM
If the 10 and 12 round threaded barrel versions of the gun are NOT approved for sale in CA, how will modding it with loctite, epoxy, welding, etc suddenly make that gun legal? I thought you had to do a single shot exception or something?

The shop that sold me the gun (and then gladly took it back) told me the serial number is attached to the SKU and only one of the three SKUs for this gun is on the approved list.

If someone knows any easy way around this, please advise because I would like to get another one legally without waiting 4-6 months.

firebert
09-02-2012, 6:09 AM
Do they weld the end cap on after the barrel is installed?

If it's anything like the Walther P22 the only difference is the thread protector cap on the end of the barrel is epoxyed on and does not have flats for a wrench.


If someone knows any easy way around this, please advise because I would like to get another one legally without waiting 4-6 months.

EDIT: See the very next post


But this also brings me back to this thread. -->http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=589010
Synopsis: OP's dad in another state wanted to give his son (OP) who resides in CA a M&P22 as a gift. OP spoke to the CA DOJ and was told epoxy was an acceptable method for permanently attaching the barrel cap rendering it a non-threaded barrel. The pistol's cap/thread protector was epoxed on and shipped to a CA FFL for DROS. However DROS will not go through because the SKU on the pistol was flagged as a "illegal assault weapon" by the CA DOJ system.



So now I'm confused as to why did the DROS go through at VintageDUG's LGS? Did S&W accidently send CA dealers threaded barrel M&P22 with CA Roster SKU's? hmmm..

I tell you.. living in this state is one headache after another sometimes.

firebert
09-02-2012, 7:00 AM
Ok I found this to be relivent to making a threaded barrel M&P22 legal:


DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

JUN 18 1998 F:FPD:FTB:RAT
3311


Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of March 31, 1998, in which you ask
about permanently attaching a muzzle device to various firearms.

A muzzle device, such as a muzzle brake or barrel extension, which
is attached to a barrel by means of welding or high temperature
silver solder having a melting point of at least 1,100 degrees
Fahrenheit, is considered to be part of the barrel for purposes of
measurement. A seam weld extending at least one-half the
circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around
the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose.

A firearm having a muzzle brake, cap, or barrel extension
permanently attached by those same methods to cover the threads on
a barrel, would not be considered to have a threaded muzzle.
Please note, however, that any muzzle device or barrel extension
which functions as a flash suppressor or grenade launcher would
still constitute one of the qualifying features of a semiautomatic
assault weapon as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. section
921(a)(30(B). Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable
method for permanently attaching a muzzle device.

- 2 -

Mr.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If you have further questions concerning this matter, please
contact us.


Sincerely yours,

[signed]

Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

So it seems the easiest way is to get some 1100 deg silver solder paste. Unthread the cap, apply the paste to the threads, replace the cap, and heat it with a MAP Gas torch to permanantly attach the cap. I believe any gunsmith should be able to do that as silver solder is commonly used to attach front sights to barrels.

VintageDUG
09-02-2012, 8:32 AM
I don't know why my DROS went through. I wish I had a copy of the paperwork. The SKU on the case was for the threaded barrel, ten round version, not the CA version.

I'll miss that 22, but I have a Hi Point .380, a S&W M&P 15 ORC and a S&W M&P 15-22 waiting in jail to take my mind off of it.

Quiet
09-02-2012, 8:58 AM
Sometimes when a new handgun that is in demand gets placed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, some CA FFL dealers transfer non-approved versions.

This is done in error, by seeing it's approved and transfering them before realizing there is a CA specific version.

This has happened several times since the creation of the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.
Examples... Glock 21SF, Kahr Arms P-380, SIG P-238, S&W M&P-9 Shield.

They are DROS'd by using the approved versions info.

firebert
09-02-2012, 6:01 PM
Well I guess that explains it. But after all these incidents I would've though our CA LGS would be more careful. Guess I'm expecting too much.

Leonidimus
09-07-2012, 1:36 AM
Sometimes when a new handgun that is in demand gets placed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, some CA FFL dealers transfer non-approved versions.

This is done in error, by seeing it's approved and transfering them before realizing there is a CA specific version.

This has happened several times since the creation of the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.
Examples... Glock 21SF, Kahr Arms P-380, SIG P-238, S&W M&P-9 Shield.

They are DROS'd by using the approved versions info.

I still don't understand how DROS goes thru - do they lie about the handguns' real SKU in the papers sent to DOJ ?? Also, they put the serial# in there, which should match with the approved SKU as well.

I asked one dealer lately how they can sell threaded M&P22s - he said they are a class 3 FFL and modified the handgun by replacing the 12-rd mag with a 10-rd one. He claimed DOJ actually OK'ed that ... :confused:

VintageDUG
09-07-2012, 7:43 AM
I don't have a copy of the paperwork so I don't know if they used the SKU off of the approved version or not.

I'm not an expert, but claim to "mod" the gun by swapping out the mag probably wouldn't fly. There are two ten round mag versions on the market already.

redcliff
09-07-2012, 9:30 AM
Ok I found this to be relivent to making a threaded barrel M&P22 legal:



So it seems the easiest way is to get some 1100 deg silver solder paste. Unthread the cap, apply the paste to the threads, replace the cap, and heat it with a MAP Gas torch to permanantly attach the cap. I believe any gunsmith should be able to do that as silver solder is commonly used to attach front sights to barrels.

As you're probably aware, the letter you posted is what is one acceptable method on a Federal level for permanently attaching items to the barrel to achieve minimum Federal barrel length.

While that certainly seems like a "safe harbor" approach, there may be other acceptable methods on the state level based upon the Walther P22 fiasco of several years ago. I believe the California DOJ allowed an epoxy to be used when I had to send my pistol back for modification.

Leonidimus
09-07-2012, 12:56 PM
I believe the California DOJ allowed an epoxy to be used when I had to send my pistol back for modification.

What kind of epoxy would be good for locking the threading? Is this Loctite Weld (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13/7/epxy_weld_t/overview/Loctite-Epoxy-Weld-Bonding-Compound.htm) OK? Although it's not recommended for applications that require a continuous temperature greater than 300F (149C). I wonder what's the temperature on the threading after 100 rounds.

VintageDUG
09-07-2012, 1:45 PM
I don't see how the 10 round threaded barrel M&P 22s would qualify to be modified because there is an approved CA version available and approved.

mann0mann
09-12-2012, 7:40 PM
I became victim to this fiasco today too. I purchased one from a not-so-local dealer approx 45 miles away from my home...and after paying and putting in jail 10 days ago. I drove up to pick it up today and was told they made the same mistake!

:-(

Man, I am so upset. No phone call prior, nothing. Drove all the way, paid bridge toll, etc. and then didn't even get a Sorry about what happened.

Just got told they screwed up, replacements were coming "soon" and that I would have to DROS again and wait 10 days again.

I sure hope this pistol is worth it, because I'm starting to have major regrets, mostly for not being patient and just waiting for one locally and now being stuck with a dealer who hasn't really treated me very good.

Man, major lesson learned....

VintageDUG
09-12-2012, 8:51 PM
Did you get a full refund including DROS?

mann0mann
09-12-2012, 10:13 PM
I was told that if I wanted a refund, that "they" the FFL gets charged $50 for a cancelation and that I would be penalized for that. :-/

I don't get why I'm responsible for the cancellation. If I wait for the replacement, a new DROS has to be done and another 10 day waiting period must occur. No matter what happens. There is nothing for me to "cancel", it already has by them not completing the purchase.

I was dealing with someone who is supposed to be the manager but I didn't get the impression he was really calling the shots or knew how to handle this.

I've got another email into the owner tonight to hopefully get some clarification and resolve.

This whole experience with this FFL has been a little rough, I'm hoping he's rational enough to see where the mistake lies and do a full refund with no pushback or he's got a plan in place to get the replacement, make the impact to me minimal and if he was a good retailer, I would think he would try to make this mess up to me in some way - either on the price or by an extra mag or something.

I own my own retail store and I know how things go. Mistakes happen. As much as we try to be on point all the time, you fall short sometimes. My take is when they are mistakes we make...we should fall on our sword and do everything and anything we can to make it right. Just my $.02

We'll see....

When I saw your this thread right after I purchased the gun, I thought oh man, I hope this isn't going to happen to me. Nobody around me had stock, it was almost too good to be true that I found a place that had a few on the shelf.

firebert
09-12-2012, 11:56 PM
I became victim to this fiasco today too. I purchased one from a not-so-local dealer approx 45 miles away from my home...and after paying and putting in jail 10 days ago. I drove up to pick it up today and was told they made the same mistake!

:-(

Man, I am so upset. No phone call prior, nothing. Drove all the way, paid bridge toll, etc. and then didn't even get a Sorry about what happened.

Just got told they screwed up, replacements were coming "soon" and that I would have to DROS again and wait 10 days again.

I sure hope this pistol is worth it, because I'm starting to have major regrets, mostly for not being patient and just waiting for one locally and now being stuck with a dealer who hasn't really treated me very good.

Man, major lesson learned....

Same thing happened to me last week At least the store owner did the right thing and gave me a full refund including DROS.

From what the store owner tells me the distributor they used mistakenly sent the non CA Roster version to them and a bunch of other gun shops all over the state and is scrambleing to get them back.

Rumor has it that S&W wont be getting the CA versions in for another 3-4 months.

2nab
09-21-2012, 9:02 AM
Sometimes, permanently affixing protector or muzzle device can affect disassembly. Another option would be to have the threads "ground" or turned down. Threads are gone, no interfering muzzle device.

Maybe send barrel to reputable smith to turn down threads and then pick your refinish, hand touch up, nitride coating, melonite, etc