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skyking13
08-20-2012, 6:53 PM
I read some of the good threads that are stuck to the forum and found some excellent definitions for various terms we use. Specifically the "condition" that we keep our 1911 action in.
As follows:
Condition 0 - cocked, round in chamber, grip and manual safety off, magazine with ammo inserted
Condition 1 - cocked, round in chamber, manual safety on, magazine with ammo inserted.
Condition 2 - hammer down (uncocked), round in chamber, magazine with ammo inserted.
Condition 3 - hammer down, no round in chamber, magazine with ammo inserted.
Conditon 4 - hammer down, no round in chamber, no magazine (unloaded gun).

My question to other 1911 shooters is this: What is the best "ready" condition to keep the 1911 in? I've posed this question before and have already received the advice to "keep it as Mr. Browning had intended"...that is cocked and locked, Condtion 1.
I have been keeping the Para Slim Hawg shown below in that condition and am comfortable it with it that way. With the gun in Condition 2 can a strike to the hammer cause an accidental discharge? My understanding of the mechanics of the 1911 has the mass of the hammer pushing the firing pin forward with sufficient force to cause the primer to fire.
Looking forward to some comments and what some other experienced shooters may think of the Para piece.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bSOW0PS8gBFI5tXXib-GBYHE3qGzQe0KNd_NREeNpz0NuM4NpEj7cO0DgtHIO3DMEN_7T x8nasM

Thanks,
Captain Bob
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/YX9gV0GxZOYymKEPL1D43oYnKZzTuPBN0MdE8EZImq6tZxQj0Q jeosxbkCQwy7Qtv0NVi29HyWE

TonyMang_89
08-20-2012, 7:12 PM
Condition 1

ChaneRZ
08-20-2012, 7:13 PM
One

redcliff
08-20-2012, 7:15 PM
The main problem with condition 2 is the act of putting it in that condition. You have to disable the thumb safety, disable the grip safety and pull the trigger on a live round with only your thumb and possibly the web of your support hand to catch the hammer. Accidents can happen when doing this. Jeff Cooper advocated "Condition One and Only" for good reason imho. I would carry in Condition 3 before carrying Condition 2. I should add that thumb-cocking from Condition 2 might be detrimental to your thumb's health if you don't get it out of the way and back on top of the thumb safety where it belongs prior to pulling the trigger in a hurry.

My understanding is Para Slim Hawg's utilize a firing pin safety similar to a Series 80. As such the pistol is no more drop safe in Condition 2 than in Condition 1.

By the way, your pictures just show up as red X's for me, so I apologize if I missed something.

Backcountry
08-20-2012, 7:21 PM
You answered your own question.

Synergy
08-20-2012, 7:22 PM
Cocked and Locked for my 1911 and USPc :p

InGrAM
08-20-2012, 7:22 PM
Condition 1.

Keep an unloaded 1911 in condition one in a holster on your hip for a day and see if the hammer drops or the trigger pulls itself. It won't, but for those that are worried about it, it is a nice example of how safe condition one is.

INFAMOUS762X39
08-20-2012, 7:23 PM
Condition 1, Loaded with 8+1 Hornady Critical Defense Ammo.

Synergy
08-20-2012, 7:26 PM
Condition 1.

Keep an unloaded 1911 in condition one in a holster on your hip for a day and see if the hammer drops or the trigger pulls itself. It won't, but for those that are worried about it, it is a nice example of how safe condition one is.

That is why many officers are frustrated that their agency will not allow them to carry a 1911. Its "unsafe", which as 1911 fans we know to be complete and utter bravo sierra!

Press Check
08-20-2012, 8:52 PM
Condition One or your pistol is nothing more than a desk or holster ornament.

jessegpresley
08-20-2012, 9:15 PM
You know what's annoying? I ordered a shoulder holster form Horseshoe leather, who is a world class maker out of England. Waited months and it finally arrived and... only allowed for Condition 2 carry! How is manually lowering a hammer on a live round safer than cocked and locked?

Condition 1 or stay home.

AeroEngi
08-20-2012, 9:27 PM
The 1911 was designed to be carried in condition 1.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

TripleThreat
08-20-2012, 9:39 PM
There is a quote from John Browning himself. He stated he never intended the 1911 to be holstered while cocked & locked and that the intent of condition 1 would be during a pause in a live shooting situation.

If it's for carrying while on-duty, then yes condition 1. If one were to be carrying in a CCW situation, I personally wouldn't carry in a condition status 1 in that scenario, but that's just me.

Dhena81
08-20-2012, 9:39 PM
Condition 1 /thread

jlbflyboy172
08-20-2012, 9:49 PM
UNO only. No other way.

9mmepiphany
08-20-2012, 9:50 PM
You know what's annoying? I ordered a shoulder holster form Horseshoe leather, who is a world class maker out of England. Waited months and it finally arrived and... only allowed for Condition 2 carry! How is manually lowering a hammer on a live round safer than cocked and locked?
I think you are mistaken, it wasn't made to carry the gun in Condition 2, it was designed to carry it in Condition 3 (with an empty chamber).

I gather you didn't tell Andy how you were planning to carry your 1911.

The 1911 was designed to be carried in condition 1.
This is a common misconception about the 1911.

JM Browning designed the pistol for the US Army, who wanted it to equip the Calvary. He designed it with the grip safety as the only external safety. There was no thumb safety at all as the gun was meant to be carried in Condition 3, drawn from the holster mounted on the saddle and a round chambered before going into action.

The Army had him add the thumb safety so that riders would reduce the risk of shooting the horse should they have to re-holster the gun while still engaged and unable to clear the chamber. It was returned to Condition 3 when the action was over.

This is why you see older movies where they draw a gun and chamber a round as the actors prepare for action. IIRC carrying in Condition 1 wasn't common until after World War II

CC Gunsmithing
08-20-2012, 10:02 PM
one

NSR500
08-20-2012, 10:49 PM
Condition 1

redcliff
08-20-2012, 10:56 PM
There is a quote from John Browning himself. He stated he never intended the 1911 to be holstered while cocked & locked and that the intent of condition 1 would be during a pause in a live shooting situation.



While that may (or may not) of been his intention, no such quote is known to exist to the 1911 community.

It really doesn't matter; given the choice we no longer fire the pistol one-handed for self-defense either as they did in 1911. Tactics evolve.

Condition 1 is the safest way to carry a 1911 while still having it ready for action. While a 1911 is safer in condition 3 since it has no round in the chamber at all, the same can be said for a Glock, Beretta 92, AR15, AK47 etc.

The first known recommendation for what we now refer to as Condition 1 carry that I am aware of is from a 1940 Army Field Manual FM 23-35:

"In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not forseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. When the pistol is carried in the holster loaded, cocked and locked the butt should be rotated away from the body when drawing the pistol in order to avoid displacing the safety lock"

1000stars
08-20-2012, 11:06 PM
Condition 1.

SA227driver
08-21-2012, 8:09 AM
Condition One or your pistol is nothing more than a desk or holster ornament.

Or a hammer...

Horton Fenty
08-21-2012, 8:25 AM
One or three. These are the only options for "ready" that even enter my mind and pretty much translate to round in the chamber or not in the chamber. Zero is not really "ready" to me, more of "I'm about to shoot something".

Lead Waster
08-21-2012, 9:40 AM
There is a quote from John Browning himself. He stated he never intended the 1911 to be holstered while cocked & locked and that the intent of condition 1 would be during a pause in a live shooting situation.

If it's for carrying while on-duty, then yes condition 1. If one were to be carrying in a CCW situation, I personally wouldn't carry in a condition status 1 in that scenario, but that's just me.

This may be true what JMB said, but I'm guessing he was never a cop or soldier!

SilverTauron
08-21-2012, 10:43 AM
I read some of the good threads that are stuck to the forum and found some excellent definitions for various terms we use. Specifically the "condition" that we keep our 1911 action in.
As follows:
Condition 0 - cocked, round in chamber, grip and manual safety off, magazine with ammo inserted
Condition 1 - cocked, round in chamber, manual safety on, magazine with ammo inserted.
Condition 2 - hammer down (uncocked), round in chamber, magazine with ammo inserted.
Condition 3 - hammer down, no round in chamber, magazine with ammo inserted.
Conditon 4 - hammer down, no round in chamber, no magazine (unloaded gun).

My question to other 1911 shooters is this: What is the best "ready" condition to keep the 1911 in? I've posed this question before and have already received the advice to "keep it as Mr. Browning had intended"...that is cocked and locked, Condtion 1.
I have been keeping the Para Slim Hawg shown below in that condition and am comfortable it with it that way. With the gun in Condition 2 can a strike to the hammer cause an accidental discharge? My understanding of the mechanics of the 1911 has the mass of the hammer pushing the firing pin forward with sufficient force to cause the primer to fire.
Looking forward to some comments and what some other experienced shooters may think of the Para piece.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bSOW0PS8gBFI5tXXib-GBYHE3qGzQe0KNd_NREeNpz0NuM4NpEj7cO0DgtHIO3DMEN_7T x8nasM

Thanks,
Captain Bob
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/YX9gV0GxZOYymKEPL1D43oYnKZzTuPBN0MdE8EZImq6tZxQj0Q jeosxbkCQwy7Qtv0NVi29HyWE


The history of the 1911's carry isn't relevant to current discussion, but the Cocked and Locked use of the 1911 evolved from Jeff Cooper and others' work in the 1960s making the modern school of pistol use. Before that time carrying hammer back wasn't common even in the military;a lot of units mandated the 1911 be carried hammer down and chamber empty when in holster.

For current use, Condition 1 all the way. Its exponentially safer than the Glock system which I would compare to holstering a cocked 1911 featuring a pinned grip safety and disengaged thumb lock. I'm not trying to slam Glocks here-a 1911 configured as such still won't fire unless some dingus touches the bang switch, but that illustrates how people afraid of "Condition 1" carry don't know what they speak of when they call it 'unsafe'.

SamayouSamurai
08-21-2012, 10:50 AM
Condition 1.

POLICESTATE
08-21-2012, 10:50 AM
I read some of the good threads that are stuck to the forum and found some excellent definitions for various terms we use. Specifically the "condition" that we keep our 1911 action in.
As follows:
Condition 0 - cocked, round in chamber, grip and manual safety off, magazine with ammo inserted very unsafe and DUMB! don't do this
Condition 1 - cocked, round in chamber, manual safety on, magazine with ammo inserted. [
Condition 2 - hammer down (uncocked), round in chamber, magazine with ammo inserted. not safe, not recommended, looks cool in movies, but that's movies, even glocks get cocked in movies!!
Condition 3 - hammer down, no round in chamber, magazine with ammo inserted.
Conditon 4 - hammer down, no round in chamber, no magazine (unloaded gun).



There are really only 3 carry conditions considered safe. For instance, the zero condition listed above assumes that the grip safety has been tape down or otherwise modified so as to not be engaged, you have to be smurfing crazy to do something like that as it is completely unnecessary with a 1911. As is not having the thumb safety engaged. The 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked with round chambered safely.

Here are the three 'safe' carry conditions for a 1911.

Condition 0: Loaded, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety engaged.
Condition 1: Loaded, unchambered, hammer cocked or uncocked
Condition 2: completely unloaded, which is not really a "carry" condition per se


If I were to carry in a holster it would be Condition 0.
In my safe it's Condition 1, however I keep the hammer cocked so it's easier to operate the slide to chamber a round, obviously I keep the safety off for this purpose. I have a GI Plug in my Kimber so I can rack the slide with one hand on my shoe, a countertop, whatever.

POLICESTATE
08-21-2012, 10:53 AM
Or a hammer...

Hammertime at 20 seconds!
wS3mIwazDyk

jkody
08-21-2012, 12:41 PM
Condition 2 is not recommended in a 1911. I personally watched my brother shoot a hole in his kitchen wall while trying to put it in conition 2. Thankfully no one got hurt. I made him read the instruction manual where it clearly stated to never try to place the gun into condition 2.

SamayouSamurai
08-21-2012, 2:25 PM
Condition 2 is not recommended in a 1911. I personally watched my brother shoot a hole in his kitchen wall while trying to put it in conition 2. Thankfully no one got hurt. I made him read the instruction manual where it clearly stated to never try to place the gun into condition 2.

He slipped while pulling hammer back?

TripleThreat
08-21-2012, 2:28 PM
A bucket of sand near the safe, goes a long, long ways.

redcliff
08-21-2012, 2:37 PM
There are really only 3 carry conditions considered safe. For instance, the zero condition listed above assumes that the grip safety has been tape down or otherwise modified so as to not be engaged, you have to be smurfing crazy to do something like that as it is completely unnecessary with a 1911. As is not having the thumb safety engaged. The 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked with round chambered safely.

Here are the three 'safe' carry conditions for a 1911.

Condition 0: Loaded, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety engaged.
Condition 1: Loaded, unchambered, hammer cocked or uncocked
Condition 2: completely unloaded, which is not really a "carry" condition per se

If I were to carry in a holster it would be Condition 0.
In my safe it's Condition 1, however I keep the hammer cocked so it's easier to operate the slide to chamber a round, obviously I keep the safety off for this purpose. I have a GI Plug in my Kimber so I can rack the slide with one hand on my shoe, a countertop, whatever.

Please don't invent/post false names for the 1911's conditions of carry. You really should learn the proper condition names if you're going to post about this subject without confusing people, especially when the real names of the conditions have already been posted in this thread.

redcliff
08-21-2012, 2:43 PM
He slipped while pulling hammer back?

Read post # 4 to learn why condition 2 is an unsafe method for carrying a 1911 and usually one used by people that have no understanding of the 1911's design or much experience with the pistol.

POLICESTATE
08-21-2012, 3:33 PM
Please don't invent/post false names for the 1911's conditions of carry. You should learn the proper condition names if you're going to post about this subject, especially when the real names of the conditions have already been posted in this thread.

Good point, I shall revise accordingly:

Here are the three 'safe' carry conditions for a 1911.

Condition 1: Loaded, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety engaged.
Condition 3: Loaded, unchambered, hammer uncocked
Condition 4: completely unloaded, which is not really a "carry" condition per se

0 and 2 is setting up things for a ND.

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

redcliff
08-21-2012, 3:43 PM
Good point, I shall revise accordingly:

Here are the three 'safe' carry conditions for a 1911.

Condition 1: Loaded, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety engaged.
Condition 3: Loaded, unchambered, hammer uncocked
Condition 4: completely unloaded, which is not really a "carry" condition per se

0 and 2 is setting up things for a ND.

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

Thanks for clarifying it properly, and I agree with you on your assessment; I just wanted you to use the correct terms :)

m1a1driver
08-21-2012, 4:53 PM
Condition 1

KandyRedCoi
08-22-2012, 9:29 AM
Condition 1

/thread

scglock
08-22-2012, 9:33 AM
Condition 1

skyking13
08-22-2012, 10:44 AM
Thank to those who contributed to the conversation about the "conditions" of a 1911. I had difficulty in posting photos of my Para previously. Hopefully they'll come through here.

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh574/robertkperry/4893b2da.jpg

Again, Regards,
Captain Bob

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh574/robertkperry/7491f57f.jpg

SilverTauron
08-22-2012, 11:13 AM
Im not personally a fan of 3" barrel 1911s, but your example looks like a satisfactory piece!

brownfeathermedic
08-22-2012, 11:36 AM
Speaking of which,has anyone heard of Marauding groups of gang members that have left their turf in L.A seeking wealth or what ever they can steal from a home invasion posing as Solicitors in O.C.? This is where your Condition 1 and shotgun come in handy.

skyscraper
08-22-2012, 12:15 PM
Has anyone mentioned condition 1 yet?

Shapes And Colors
08-22-2012, 1:05 PM
Has anyone mentioned condition 1 yet?

What's that? ;)

skyscraper
08-22-2012, 1:21 PM
The better question is: how many here carry concealed, and what condition ? ;)

SilverTauron
08-22-2012, 1:53 PM
The better question is: how many here carry concealed, and what condition ? ;)

There's Condition 1, and theres Condition Paperweight. ;)

skyscraper
08-22-2012, 2:01 PM
There's Condition 1, and theres Condition Paperweight. ;)

Well said.

skyscraper
08-22-2012, 2:04 PM
There's Condition 1, and theres Condition Paperweight. ;)

Well said.

KandyRedCoi
08-22-2012, 2:14 PM
There's Condition 1, and theres Condition Paperweight. ;)

+100000000000000000000000000000000000

Gatotsu77
08-23-2012, 12:06 PM
Good point, I shall revise accordingly:

Here are the three 'safe' carry conditions for a 1911.

Condition 1: Loaded, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety engaged.
Condition 3: Loaded, unchambered, hammer uncocked
Condition 4: completely unloaded, which is not really a "carry" condition per se

0 and 2 is setting up things for a ND.

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

Condition 0 is not an intended "carry" method in the conventional sense. It implies that the grip safety is disengaged via the shooter's hand grasping the firearm. So, the shooter is "carrying" the firearm, but it is in their hands and ready to be discharged, not in a holster. Condition 0 does not suggest or advocate using tape on the grip safety to keep it depressed, as there is absolutely no need to do so.