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canyon289
08-19-2012, 4:09 PM
What's benefits of paying thousands of dollars for a race pistol, vs a "regular" pistol?

FYI
I'm relatively new to guns and I'm trying to get a grasp of the sport and industry as whole. Thanks in advance!

RugerNo1
08-19-2012, 4:16 PM
Are you speaking of the handguns used in competitions like USPSA/IPSC or Steel Challenge?


Those guns are designed with tighter tolerances while maintaining the reliability that the shooters need to get through a match. The craftmanship and features of their designs often bump the price up. However, even so-called "regular" guns can be used in these competitions as well and be competitive. If someone is interested in shooting the competition stuff, they can easily shoot what they have until they know what they really need/want.

canyon289
08-19-2012, 4:19 PM
I think so, I'm referring to guns like the Razorcat.

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 4:19 PM
about $4,000....without $100 magazines, $60 mag pouches, and a $300 race holster. A full on STI Open Gun versus an entry level 1911. But, a race gun will not make you a better shooter, it will only do the same thing easier. And keep in mind, most open guns run on very hot hand loaded ammo to make them cycle. You need to learn the fundamentals first, stance, grip, sight picture and trigger with any gun that has good sights and a manageable trigger.

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 4:24 PM
I think so, I'm referring to guns like the Razorcat.

JJ Racaza is one of the best IPSC shooters on the planet. He started at age 9 and everyone knew he was a natural. They are only a handful of shooters like him.

agent.5
08-19-2012, 4:34 PM
generally these 2011 are very well built double stack 1911, with a 2lbs trigger. You can get a regular (but well built) 1911 from Wilson or other builders for about the same price. Generally, you have a 3.5lbs or higher trigger pull for regular guns.

dangerranger
08-19-2012, 4:34 PM
Race guns are focused at one thing. Winning at all cost! Their sights are tall and make you need a special holster, they only eat special ammo, and they look goofy for anything but serious competition. But mostly they are to make your competition think you have an edge. DR

hkdad
08-19-2012, 5:12 PM
I think so, I'm referring to guns like the Razorcat.

Hmmm.... Razorcat... :cool2:

jcaoloveshine
08-19-2012, 5:29 PM
Raceguns are built for competition and wouldn't really be practical for self defense purposes.

unusedusername
08-19-2012, 5:43 PM
Also, many raceguns use super-light springs so they won't even set off the harder primers used in self defense ammo. You'll get a "click" instead of a "bang".

Raceguns are great for competitions, not really useful for much more.

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 5:43 PM
Race guns are focused at one thing. Winning at all cost! Their sights are tall and make you need a special holster, they only eat special ammo, and they look goofy for anything but serious competition. But mostly they are to make your competition think you have an edge. DR

Open guns run optics, not sights. And you do have the edge running an Open gun, assuming you can shoot an open gun well enough to beat all the rest of the Grand Masters.

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 5:44 PM
Raceguns are built for competition and wouldn't really be practical for self defense purposes.

Would you like to face this guy in a gun fight???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzZ0m-jowlU

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 5:52 PM
Also, many raceguns use super-light springs so they won't even set off the harder primers used in self defense ammo. You'll get a "click" instead of a "bang".

Raceguns are great for competitions, not really useful for much more.

Really? Try this if you think you are fast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdFaqb3c_JQ

m98
08-19-2012, 6:32 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

bsim
08-19-2012, 6:37 PM
"Race Gun" is generally referring to "open" competition pistols. Optic sights (red dots), compensators, support hand thumb rests, giant magwells, etc. Super soft shooters.

Figure "Formula One" racecars, versus a production car. There are classes within each competition, so no, your production gun is not competing against these guns.

ElDub1950
08-19-2012, 6:39 PM
I'm guessing if I ever get good enough that I need a race gun, some sponsor will buy me a couple.

RugerNo1
08-19-2012, 6:39 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

Many Open guns that are chambered in 9mm Major are shooting loads of 9mm that would KaBoom a regular gun chambered in 9mm. The high pressures must be reached for the compensator to be most effective. It is common practice for 9mm Major guys to only shoot once fired mixed brass one more time and leave it at the range. In fact, fairly hot loads are used in all the "race" guns regardless of what they are chambered in.

I am sorry, but YOU are wrong on that point.

There are power requirements in scoring for different divisions. The "stock" or Production division only requires the low power Minor stuff. In the other divisions, shooting Major powerfactor offers a scoring advantage. You can shoot Minor in these divisions, but you better shoot a perfect score.

bsim
08-19-2012, 6:41 PM
...Raceguns are great for competitions, not really useful for much more.What else is there? :p

Bunsen
08-19-2012, 6:42 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

Most of the open guns run pretty hot 9mm major, 38 super or 38 Super Comp to make the power factor requirements.

Down loading is only common in 40 S&W and 45.

Bunsen
08-19-2012, 6:43 PM
What's benefits of paying thousands of dollars for a race pistol, vs a "regular" pistol?

FYI
I'm relatively new to guns and I'm trying to get a grasp of the sport and industry as whole. Thanks in advance!

To answer your original question get a “normal gun” see what you like and take your time.

Then decide if you want to get into race guns. After 5 years of doing USPSA and trying most of the divisions I have found a home at USPSA single stack and still cringe at the money I wasted on Open and Limited division guns.

bsim
08-19-2012, 6:45 PM
Many Open guns that are chambered in 9mm Major are shooting loads of 9mm Parabellum that would KaBoom a regular gun chambered in 9mm. The high pressures must be reached for the compensator to be most effective. In fact, fairly hot loads are used in all the "race" guns regardless of what they are chambered in.

I am sorry, but YOU are wrong on that point.

There are power requirements in scoring for different divisions. The "stock" or Production division only requires the low power Minor stuff. In the other divisions, shooting Major powerfactor offers a scoring advantage. You can shoot Minor in these divisions, but you better shoot a perfect score.Depends. My open guns comp is tuned for 130 pf. I shoot it in both Steel Challenge and USPSA.

No need to make major PF in USPSA if you shoot all "A"s.

So you both are "right", but "it depends".

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 6:53 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

You have no clue at all. Just saying that says you have never even shot one competition match, but you comment. Open Guns run hot loads to make the compensator work, resulting in lower recoil. That's the best part about the internet, people like m98 comment about something they know absolutely NOTHING ABOUT! But they still comment....

Dreaded Claymore
08-19-2012, 6:55 PM
As recently as fifty years ago, race pistols were forbidden from drinking from the same water fountains as other pistols.
:D

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 6:56 PM
I'm guessing if I ever get good enough that I need a race gun, some sponsor will buy me a couple.

Yup, you got it right.

jcaoloveshine
08-19-2012, 7:03 PM
Would you like to face this guy in a gun fight???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzZ0m-jowlU

No I wouldn't. I didn't say these guys can't shoot.

I said raceguns aren't practical for self defense. Sure they can do the job and beat a big stick, but I've yet to hear a single instructor recommend them for a job they aren't designed to do.

agent.5
08-19-2012, 7:15 PM
No I wouldn't. I didn't say these guys can't shoot.

I said raceguns aren't practical for self defense. Sure they can do the job and beat a big stick, but I've yet to hear a single instructor recommend them for a job they aren't designed to do.


What is this pistol "designed to do"?



http://www.jprifles.com/cart_pix/ph/1302.jpg

zfields
08-19-2012, 7:19 PM
What is this pistol "designed to do"?



http://www.jprifles.com/cart_pix/ph/1302.jpg

Looks like a nice starting platform for a limited gun.

Sent from my fingers, to your face.

HighLander51
08-19-2012, 7:25 PM
No I wouldn't. I didn't say these guys can't shoot.

I said raceguns aren't practical for self defense. Sure they can do the job and beat a big stick, but I've yet to hear a single instructor recommend them for a job they aren't designed to do.

So shooting a race gun that cycles faster and is more accurate than any other gun is not a good idea? Do you shoot much, at all? or just listen to internet NRA instructors? Stick with your model 10 S&W, shoot slow and miss allot. You won't have to worry about reloads, the guy with the open gun will have put 17 rounds in you before you hand touches your gun....

CK_32
08-19-2012, 7:43 PM
Standard factory
http://www.springfield-armory.com/1911RO/Photos/1911-A1-45f.jpg

Race gun
http://www.pdhsc.com/30.jpg

Pretty much nothing unsmithed on the gun. $6k+ or work done to them. Usually have wide mouth mag wells red dot/mounts and look like a space gun.

Anything made about the gun for speed beyond a trigger job/night sights is a race gun to me..

jdg30
08-19-2012, 8:15 PM
For me, race guns take all the desire out of wanting to try to compete. I'd rather shoot normal guns that I carry and would use in real life instead of super-modified guns that are only good for playing games. So you get real good at shooting a race gun in the games and think you're all that, what happens when you have to shoot a normal gun with normal ammo and actual recoil? I bet it won't be as good as shooting the race gun when you really need it.

It seems that there's a lot of big egos when it comes to competing with and spending money on race guns. I practice all the time with regular guns and reloads and prefer to keep it real for how I'd have to use my guns in real life.

zfields
08-19-2012, 8:17 PM
For me, race guns take all the desire out of wanting to try to compete. I'd rather shoot normal guns that I carry and would use in real life instead of super-modified guns that are only good for playing games. So you get real good at shooting a race gun in the games and think you're all that, what happens when you have to shoot a normal gun with normal ammo and actual recoil? I bet it won't be as good as shooting the race gun when you really need it.

It seems that there's a lot of big egos when it comes to competing with and spending money on race guns. I practice all the time with regular guns and reloads and prefer to keep it real for how I'd have to use my guns in real life.

Shoot production. That's what I do. Open has zero appeal to me ( not to mention to damn expensive) .

Sent from my fingers, to your face.

hkdad
08-19-2012, 8:18 PM
This thread is interesting... I want to know as well...:D

RugerNo1
08-19-2012, 8:24 PM
For me, race guns take all the desire out of wanting to try to compete....

Shoot Production or Singlestack in USPSA or try IDPA.

Production has some very talented shooters. You do not need a race gun to win a competition.

JTROKS
08-19-2012, 8:55 PM
Race guns depending what they are built for are the formula 1 of handgunning. The USPSA/IPSC Open division guns are set up with light match triggers, comps and bull barrels and the ignition system is set up to ignite rifle primers thar are heavily used to prevent primer flow from 9mm major loads or hot 38 Super loads. Steel shooting race guns are set up to 125 power factor and those usually use pistol primers. The guns are tuned to provide match accuracy and reliability for a given load.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh257/joshuatroy/DSC03101.jpg

bsim
08-19-2012, 9:14 PM
This thread is interesting... I want to know as well...:DQuiet you... :chris:

BTW, sell me an Infinity. :D

bsim
08-19-2012, 9:24 PM
For me, race guns take all the desire out of wanting to try to compete. I'd rather shoot normal guns that I carry and would use in real life instead of super-modified guns that are only good for playing games. So you get real good at shooting a race gun in the games and think you're all that, what happens when you have to shoot a normal gun with normal ammo and actual recoil? I bet it won't be as good as shooting the race gun when you really need it.

It seems that there's a lot of big egos when it comes to competing with and spending money on race guns. As mentioned, shoot production. You are NOT shooting against the Open or Limited classed shooters. You don't need (or maybe even really want) to shoot other classes. I shoot:
Open = STI
Limited = STI
Single Stack = Stock SA 1911
Production = Stock Sig P226
I practice all the time with regular guns and reloads and prefer to keep it real for how I'd have to use my guns in real life.BTW, shooting games are not the same as tactical training. Just as shooting paper doesn't "train" you for "how you'd have to use your guns in real life".

Try it, live a little. You just may like it.

bsim
08-19-2012, 9:28 PM
Just for grins, with a Glock:
mXX39ChdHvE

hkdad
08-19-2012, 9:53 PM
Just for grins, with a Glock:
mXX39ChdHvE

That was pretty cool! I was there when he did that.

fullrearview
08-19-2012, 9:55 PM
I shoot IDPA and run my duty P226 for SSP. Next classifier, I will run my XDM9 3.8 for ESP UNLESS they change it to SSP by then. Hopefully they do.

Next year I may break into USPSA, but I will only compete with guns I carry. Just a training thing.

JTROKS
08-20-2012, 1:42 AM
I started with open class handguns then went to limited class and now I just practice with a single stack or production class. I still enjoy shooting USPSA type shooting format, but now just concentrate more on the practical portion instead of hosing. If I can CCW a modified division type of pistol I'd do it.

http://www.jvdynamics.com/custom_guns/modified_guns.php#

viet4lifeOC
08-20-2012, 10:14 AM
That was pretty cool! I was there when he did that.

Did he shoot before the start timer went off?

RugerNo1
08-20-2012, 10:42 AM
Did he shoot before the start timer went off?

Keep clicking 0:02 seconds. Taran just has a perfect draw.

zfields
08-20-2012, 10:47 AM
Just for grins, with a Glock:
mXX39ChdHvE

Hell, I barely do that when I'm aiming.

hkdad
08-20-2012, 11:59 AM
Keep clicking 0:02 seconds. Taran just has a perfect draw.

Exactly! We shot a couple of stages together. He draws fast and shoots even faster! Here is a pic of me with the Grand Master on that day...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/bnitsche/4D0A8D77-6719-4283-A7F8-FA561B77EC83-3762-000003162705675B.jpg

Lead Waster
08-20-2012, 12:43 PM
I think most people have covered it and the Formula 1 car vs Nascar vs Honda Civic analogy is good.

Nascar cars are very good at going fast and turning left (or right, whichever!) but would suck at getting the family to the beach. You couldn't even go for groceries in a Formula 1 car, but for driver REALLY REALLY REALLY fast, it's hard to beat!

My "racey-ish" gun is a production division CZ75 SP-01. The DA pull is very light (no idea how many lbs the pull is) and it's very accurate. The only "problem" is that the lightened hammer spring will only ignite ammo with Federal primers (like my handloads or Walmart federal champion I think). But for HD/SD, I have a Glock 23 which is accurate enough for that and reliable enough to ignite any .40 ammo I shove into it.

One aspect of "race guns" is the ability to make quick follow up shots due to compensators, tuned handloads, silk smooth actions and light triggers.

They are basically like shooting your well broken in .22 pistol, but shooting .40 or whatever to get "major" scoring.

ZombieTactics
08-20-2012, 2:15 PM
Would you like to face this guy in a gun fight??? ...

I wouldn't like to face a one-armed crackhead with a twitch, firing a 22LR pistol one handed ... but that's far from the point. Skills are extremely important ... but mindset and tactics are far more important.

In a competition, winning means rounds on target as quickly as accurately as possible. You don't get great times and "down zero" any other way, or am I wrong? However, to paraphrase Bruce Lee: "Targets don't shoot back".

In a self-defense encounter, winning means not getting killed. This means that regardless of what else you are doing, and how awesomely you are doing it, your overarching concern above all others is to not get shot/stabbed/clubbed.

Some will posit the idea that somehow getting those fast/accurate comp-style hits is the thing which keeps you from getting killed. How exactly is that now? Unless you "score" direct CNS hits, your opponent is likely still in the fight for several seconds in many cases. This is reality, not the movies. BGs don't drop their guns and crumple over in a heap after "Marshall Dillon" gets off that first fast draw shot.

I am often told in these discussions that "a fraction of a second is an eternity in a gunfight" If that is true regarding a reload or some manipulation of the gun, then how long is 5 seconds or 10, wherein your opponent has the opportunity to get even one lucky lethal hit?

Great ... you "scored" 5 shots to the "A" zone with your perfect stance, and perfect grip and your perfect gun ... standing there like an idiot or failing to move to cover/concealment/distance adequately ... soaking up shots because you trained yourself to focus on the wrong damned thing. Yep, the crackhead with the crap gun and no training went down first, but now you are sitting there bleeding to death from a "C" zone hit to your femoral artery. The EMS will be there in 10 minutes, but you'll be dead in 90 seconds. Your match director will be impressed, your widow and orphans ... not so much.

Jelly Bryce is said to have prevailed against 19 or more armed assailants. He was laughed at for his poor showing at matches. Make no mistake ... speed, the right kind of speed was something he had. Guess who I think would win a fight against almost any of those laughing competition winners?

The point is that skills and equipment are big deals, but lets not lose track of what the "fight" is really all about, if that's what we are discussing.

hkdad
08-20-2012, 2:45 PM
I wouldn't like to face a one-armed crackhead with a twitch, firing a 22LR pistol one handed ... but that's far from the point. Skills are extremely important ... but mindset and tactics are far more important.

In a competition, winning means rounds on target as quickly as accurately as possible. You don't get great times and "down zero" any other way, or am I wrong? However, to paraphrase Bruce Lee: "Targets don't shoot back".

In a self-defense encounter, winning means not getting killed. This means that regardless of what else you are doing, and how awesomely you are doing it, your overarching concern above all others is to not get shot/stabbed/clubbed.

Some will posit the idea that somehow getting those fast/accurate comp-style hits is the thing which keeps you from getting killed. How exactly is that now? Unless you "score" direct CNS hits, your opponent is likely still in the fight for several seconds in many cases. This is reality, not the movies. BGs don't drop their guns and crumple over in a heap after "Marshall Dillon" gets off that first fast draw shot.

I am often told in these discussions that "a fraction of a second is an eternity in a gunfight" If that is true regarding a reload or some manipulation of the gun, then how long is 5 seconds or 10, wherein your opponent has the opportunity to get even one lucky lethal hit?

Great ... you "scored" 5 shots to the "A" zone with your perfect stance, and perfect grip and your perfect gun ... standing there like an idiot or failing to move to cover/concealment/distance adequately ... soaking up shots because you trained yourself to focus on the wrong damned thing. Yep, the crackhead with the crap gun and no training went down first, but now you are sitting there bleeding to death from a "C" zone hit to your femoral artery. The EMS will be there in 10 minutes, but you'll be dead in 90 seconds. Your match director will be impressed, your widow and orphans ... not so much.

Jelly Bryce is said to have prevailed against 19 or more armed assailants. He was laughed at for his poor showing at matches. Make no mistake ... speed, the right kind of speed was something he had. Guess who I think would win a fight against almost any of those laughing competition winners?

The point is that skills and equipment are big deals, but lets not lose track of what the "fight" is really all about, if that's what we are discussing.

OP's question...

"Difference between race pistol and regular pistol"


Obviously, you don't care much about USPSA/IDPA shooting sport. You are so "tacticool" that you went way beyond topic.... :rolleyes:

JTROKS
08-20-2012, 3:06 PM
I wouldn't like to face a one-armed crackhead with a twitch, firing a 22LR pistol one handed ... but that's far from the point. Skills are extremely important ... but mindset and tactics are far more important.

In a competition, winning means rounds on target as quickly as accurately as possible. You don't get great times and "down zero" any other way, or am I wrong? However, to paraphrase Bruce Lee: "Targets don't shoot back".

In a self-defense encounter, winning means not getting killed. This means that regardless of what else you are doing, and how awesomely you are doing it, your overarching concern above all others is to not get shot/stabbed/clubbed.

Some will posit the idea that somehow getting those fast/accurate comp-style hits is the thing which keeps you from getting killed. How exactly is that now? Unless you "score" direct CNS hits, your opponent is likely still in the fight for several seconds in many cases. This is reality, not the movies. BGs don't drop their guns and crumple over in a heap after "Marshall Dillon" gets off that first fast draw shot.

I am often told in these discussions that "a fraction of a second is an eternity in a gunfight" If that is true regarding a reload or some manipulation of the gun, then how long is 5 seconds or 10, wherein your opponent has the opportunity to get even one lucky lethal hit?

Great ... you "scored" 5 shots to the "A" zone with your perfect stance, and perfect grip and your perfect gun ... standing there like an idiot or failing to move to cover/concealment/distance adequately ... soaking up shots because you trained yourself to focus on the wrong damned thing. Yep, the crackhead with the crap gun and no training went down first, but now you are sitting there bleeding to death from a "C" zone hit to your femoral artery. The EMS will be there in 10 minutes, but you'll be dead in 90 seconds. Your match director will be impressed, your widow and orphans ... not so much.

Jelly Bryce is said to have prevailed against 19 or more armed assailants. He was laughed at for his poor showing at matches. Make no mistake ... speed, the right kind of speed was something he had. Guess who I think would win a fight against almost any of those laughing competition winners?

The point is that skills and equipment are big deals, but lets not lose track of what the "fight" is really all about, if that's what we are discussing.

I understand what you posted and highly agree with tactics instead of just standing and gunning. BUT there are lots of stages that requires shooting on the move and hitting your targets if you want to place high in the standings. The way I look at it, the top dogs in USPSA sport are hired or have shooting schools not only for learning the game, but also applied in the real world by the military and LEOs. Some of the gizmos you see mounted on military and LEO equipment were proven in USPSA and the 3 gun world.

G-vtVFkTQ9E
Jerry Barnhart was one of the legends in USPSA during the 80s - early 90s.

Todd Jarrett trains elite military units has got to give some credit to the action shooting sports.

Top shooters like KC Eusebio, Max Michel, Travis Tomasie, JJ Racaza are other names that trains military and LEOs.

With that said, I think of an experienced USPSA shooter as a very intelligent and ver capable shooter. He/she can also apply tactics for it takes a very wise shooter to analyze a stage and plan his/her strategy to get the best score. Taking cover when someone is shooting at them is almost an automatic response, but an USPSA shooter shoots on the move towards that cover.

ZombieTactics
08-20-2012, 3:13 PM
... Obviously, you don't care much about USPSA/IDPA shooting sport. You are so "tacticool" that you went way beyond topic.... :rolleyes:
I'm not sure what "care" means in this context, but I have tremendous respect for competition shooters.

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 3:19 PM
LOL. Here we gooooo with the tactical vs competition ****. Which is extremely hilarious when you realize that many of the top competition shooters also train LE type folks as well.

What's with everyone thinking that if you shoot competition, you won't be able to differentiate between the two in a true "gun fight" which many of you so called tactical people will and have never been in anyway?

I own a daily driver, and a race car. Are you telling me all of the time spent behind the race car means I won't be able to drive appropriately on the street and vice versa? If I am doing a track day, am I going to forget race technique and lose the race because I resorted back to driving like I do in a normal street vehicle? Bull****.

Have you folks who subscribe to this actually experienced this FIRST HAND? Or are you just regurgitating ****?

JTROKS hit on the head: Please do some research on so many of the Grand Masters who are actually active Grand Master shooters, but also train/teach defensively.

I am all for all shooting disciplines and sports, but lemme tell you, I always find it hilarious when the "tactical" (aka average Joe with WAYYY too much 5.11 gear in his closet) comes decked out to shoot a match with us, gets his *** kicked, and then tries to use "this is so unrealistic blah blah" excuse. Just fess up. YOU GOT YOUR *** KICKED AT THIS PARTICULAR DISCIPLINE. lol.

No disrespect to the guys who actually can do both. We shoot with them every weekend. It just cracks me up when you get the guys who bash it that swear they are rambo, knowing damn well in a real shoot out they'd be the first people cowering.

Stop frontin'!

ZombieTactics
08-20-2012, 3:19 PM
... Taking cover when someone is shooting at them is almost an automatic response, but an USPSA shooter shoots on the move towards that cover.

This is the one area where I think we differ. There is nothing "automatic" about moving to cover anymore than trigger control and a good grip are "automatic" IMHO. Further, the kinds of movements - which are being repeated/practiced/ingrained in competition - are optimized toward completing the round swiftly. This was the nature of the Jelly Bryce comment earlier. He - who arguably knew more about surviving a gunfight than his laughing detractors - knew full well what it took to win an actual fight ... something different than winning a match.

hkdad is correct though. This thread is really about something else, and some of us have gotten off topic. Lest a full-on thread jack occur, maybe it's best to get back to the scheduled program.

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 3:23 PM
What does all of thise have to do with the OP's original question?

I'm gonna wait for someone to come in with an ignorant comment about how a race gun is extremely unreliable...it usually happens on every post of this nature.

Wait for it.........

I just paid 275 for my USPSA Nationals slot. You think I wanna pay 275 (in addition to lodging, travel, etc) and have my gun tanking on stages? Hell no. You better believe that reliability is extremely important, even on a race gun!

Someone mentioned not setting off primers. See, I personally would never like that, even on my Limited race gun. When I experiment with main springs and related parts, I do choose the lightest one that works (the lighest one that still ignites every single primer I throw at it).

ZombieTactics
08-20-2012, 3:34 PM
... I always find it hilarious when the "tactical" (aka average Joe with WAYYY too much 5.11 gear in his closet) comes decked out to shoot a match with us, gets his *** kicked, and then tries to use "this is so unrealistic blah blah" excuse. Just fess up. YOU GOT YOUR *** KICKED AT THIS PARTICULAR DISCIPLINE. lol. ...

Similar to my observations of comp shooters who get an education in their first FoF class. Invariably, they think they "won" because they got shots off first .... and then they find out they just shot a "cop" or other "good guy". Alternately, they just as often get shot up by a noob beginner with minimal skills who had the good sense to not get shot.

It's an entirely different "discipline" when there are no buzzers, no clearly defined targets and the targets may or may not be shooting at you.

I have no problem admitting that competition is an excellent way to hone certain fundamental skills ... maybe even the best way to do so. The problem lies in thinking that those fundamental shooting skills are the only thing that matters, when clearly a real-world incident involves so many other things, none of which are "automatically" dealt with in stride.

I've been the victim of violent crime 4 times, 2 of them with guns pointed at me. Interestingly, the other 2 were the ones where I was nearly killed. The FoF exercises I've participated in closely models my real world experience, and I have yet to see an example of a competition stage anything like them at all.

There should be no insult in these observations.

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 3:36 PM
For me, race guns take all the desire out of wanting to try to compete. I'd rather shoot normal guns that I carry and would use in real life instead of super-modified guns that are only good for playing games. So you get real good at shooting a race gun in the games and think you're all that, what happens when you have to shoot a normal gun with normal ammo and actual recoil? I bet it won't be as good as shooting the race gun when you really need it.

It seems that there's a lot of big egos when it comes to competing with and spending money on race guns. I practice all the time with regular guns and reloads and prefer to keep it real for how I'd have to use my guns in real life.

Why is it so cut and dry with you people? Why can't you train/practice with both? I shoot an STI 2011 race gun and a Glock 34, like many people who compete.

Actual recoil? Dude what are you talking about? Have you shot a Limited gun with 170-180 power factor? There is recoil present. Not all race guns are open guns with compensators.

Big egos? No it's called a hobby. The deeper you get into it, the more natural it is to start spending money on higher dollar equipment that is specialized for what you do.

When I first started taking cars to the track, I drove fairly stock vehicles. As you get faster and get into it, more, it's normal to get equipment that can help you push the envelope a bit further. Does the equipment make the shooter? No.

ZombieTactics
08-20-2012, 3:36 PM
... I'm gonna wait for someone to come in with an ignorant comment about how a race gun is extremely unreliable...it usually happens on every post of this nature.
... No, I'd simply note that I presently have no experience or observations with such guns, and pretty much shut up at that point. I'd be curious about which modifications and refinements would be useful for self-defense though. No doubt some would and some would not. No harm in that certainly?

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 3:41 PM
and I have yet to see an example of a competition stage anything like them at all.

There should be no insult in these observations.

I have yet to see a street or highway situation that resembles the situations I come across on a race track.

I know that they are two different things.

Why would you expect a competition stage to mimick "real life" as you put it? Competition shooting is just that, a sport. It is its own discipline.

I dunno, some folks (not necessarily you) seem to have a hard time understanding that an object can in fact be utilized differently than its intended purpose. Take the basic car for example. Used for transportation. Take a formula 1 car. Used to push the envelope in racing/performance.

Do these same people scoff at F1 cars and say "Oh brother, that thing is retarded. You would never use that to go to the grocery store!" NO ****, Sherlock!

ZombieTactics
08-20-2012, 3:47 PM
I have yet to see a street or highway situation that resembles the situations I come across on a race track.

I know that they are two different things.

Why would you expect a competition stage to mimick "real life" as you put it? Competition shooting is just that, a sport. It is its own discipline.

I dunno, some folks (not necessarily you) seem to have a hard time understanding that an object can in fact be utilized differently than its intended purpose. Take the basic car for example. Used for transportation. Take a formula 1 car. Used to push the envelope in racing/performance.

Do these same people scoff at F1 cars and say "Oh brother, that thing is retarded. You would never use that to go to the grocery store!" NO ****, Sherlock!


I think you are making perfect sense here, I just wish more people were open to such distinctions.

hkdad
08-20-2012, 3:51 PM
Bottom line....

If you can afford to buy a "race gun"... Go for it! Shoot is as much so you can to justify the $$$ you spent on it. Every week (minimum of 200-300 rounds per match). You don't want to buy a race car and just let it sit in your garage and feel good about it just to have one (they are meant to be tracked and abused, main purpose).

If you can't afford a race gun, stick with the production division and have a ton of fun too without spending a lot of $$$. Like a reliable civic or corolla which will get you also from point A to point B.

1911Operator
08-20-2012, 4:06 PM
http://www.jprifles.com/cart_pix/ph/1302.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/boss_406/tumblr_m4ut9qwbIa1qjy99f.gif

Lead Waster
08-20-2012, 4:27 PM
USPSA vs Tactical training...

What happens when you spend your whole life playing football and then some throws a baby at you? WHAT DO YOU DO!

Why do I bother playing golf with my Ping Super Clubs when one day a twitchy crack whore approaches me and challenges me to sink a putt with nothing other than a broken stick?!!!!

My point is that USPDA is a GAME, it's not meant to train you for anything other than getting better at the same game! The same as how football and golf and baseball, etc, have no real bearing on real life for the 99.99% of the people who don't do it for a living.

Guns are a whole different animal than baseball bats and gold clubs for obvious reasons. But for the sake of this thread, consider race guns as competition equipment (that can also be used for self defense).

Are race guns finicky? About as finicky as a finely tuned 1911. Meaning if you are in a dust storm, it might not work so well.

And what do you think is more reliable, the glock that's been to the range a total of 8 times in 10 years, or the gun with 15,000 rounds through it per year?

I think that YES, IPSC, IDPA and USPSA are not great training for "real life", but I don't think they are meant to be anymore. Their roots were meant to be practical, this is why the scores are they way they are, and why you must double tap paper targets and you must knock down steel for it to count. The A, B ,C, D zones score differently for minor and major power factors because they figured that "major" ammo dealt more damage to B, C and D zones in a human target than a minor factor hit. So yeah, I think Jeff Cooper envisioned IPSC or it's predecessor to be PRACTICAL, but the reality is that it's more fun when it's a game.

Why do I do USPSA? Not because I'm that competitive or that I think it helps me in any way to be some commando, I do it because it's fun. Where else do you get to indulge your childhood cowboy fantasy or walking around with a holster on?

And really, aside from the quick "double taps" and zone shooting, how much practical training do you get from standing on a wobbly see-saw trying to knock plates off a spinning "Texas Star"? It's not practical but it sure is fun!


I think by now, OP understands the differences.

Lead Waster
08-20-2012, 4:29 PM
Bottom line....

If you can afford to buy a "race gun"... Go for it! Shoot is as much so you can to justify the $$$ you spent on it. Every week (minimum of 200-300 rounds per match). You don't want to buy a race car and just let it sit in your garage and feel good about it just to have one (they are meant to be tracked and abused, main purpose).

If you can't afford a race gun, stick with the production division and have a ton of fun too without spending a lot of $$$. Like a reliable civic or corolla which will get you also from point A to point B.

There are PLENTY of guys who shoot and win with almost stock Glocks. Maybe a sight upgrade and some trigger work and that's it.

It's not the gun, it's the shooter who wins.

fullrearview
08-20-2012, 6:13 PM
I see thin thread has gone down the real world v. competition road... While NOTHING can truly simulate the real world, except real world, competition is a pretty good alternative to it. Almost as good as simunitions (which are expensive). Many of the current tactics taught with the rifle originated from the competition arena.

Both require the same thing... Get your rounds on target as fast and accurately as possible.

HighLander51
08-20-2012, 7:12 PM
USPSA vs Tactical training...

My point is that USPDA is a GAME, it's not meant to train you for anything other than getting better


And what do you think is more reliable, the glock that's been to the range a total of 8 times in 10 years, or the gun with 15,000 rounds through it per year?


Yes, USPSA, not USPDA, is a game designed to get you to shoot faster and more accurately. Just like Steel Challenge, and IDPA, it's neither Tactical nor training, it only leads to one thing, being faster and more accurate. And you don't think that applies to a real life gunfight? At the end of the day, to survive, and to win the game, you only need to be faster and more accurate.

I run about 20,000 rounds a year in competition with my Glocks....

How about you? shoot much

Excelsior
08-20-2012, 7:19 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

Bingo. I was wondering about that. That's precisely why a .22LR "racegun" times in SC are faster than their centerfire brethren.

Low recoil is such an (obvious) advantage that shooters often have to demonstrate a minimum power factor.

Excelsior
08-20-2012, 7:24 PM
I have yet to see a street or highway situation that resembles the situations I come across on a race track.

I know that they are two different things.

Why would you expect a competition stage to mimick "real life" as you put it? Competition shooting is just that, a sport. It is its own discipline.

I dunno, some folks (not necessarily you) seem to have a hard time understanding that an object can in fact be utilized differently than its intended purpose. Take the basic car for example. Used for transportation. Take a formula 1 car. Used to push the envelope in racing/performance.

Do these same people scoff at F1 cars and say "Oh brother, that thing is retarded. You would never use that to go to the grocery store!" NO ****, Sherlock!

IDPA takes a great deal of pride in endeavoring to do just that. That's why there is often friction between IDPA and USPSA, SC and other shooters.

Excelsior
08-20-2012, 7:29 PM
Shoot Production or Singlestack in USPSA or try IDPA.

Production has some very talented shooters. You do not need a race gun to win a competition.

Yeah, like Rob Leatham. I'm fairly sure Rob would beat the very best "open" shooters at our monthly match using a completely stock pistol with no optics.

hkdad
08-20-2012, 7:57 PM
There are PLENTY of guys who shoot and win with almost stock Glocks. Maybe a sight upgrade and some trigger work and that's it.

It's not the gun, it's the shooter who wins.

Did I ever say it's the gun??? You compete against the same gun in uspsa. If you shoot a stock glock (except G17L or G24) with little mods like trigger upgrade sights (production) you compete in production division. If you shoot open then you shoot against race guns with optics. I never said it's the gun! It's all about what division you want to compete in. And of course skills!

CalTeacher
08-20-2012, 8:25 PM
Bingo. I was wondering about that. That's precisely why a .22LR "racegun" times in SC are faster than their centerfire brethren.

Low recoil is such an (obvious) advantage that shooters often have to demonstrate a minimum power factor.

Either you are really sarcastic or you've never shot limited or open.

Sheperd80
08-20-2012, 8:25 PM
No, I'd simply note that I presently have no experience or observations with such guns, and pretty much shut up at that point. I'd be curious about which modifications and refinements would be useful for self-defense though. No doubt some would and some would not. No harm in that certainly?

Well low recoil and high accuracy is definitely desirable for any situation. But imho alot of racegun features are a little iffy for defense and even more so for survival. Not saying they SUCK for defense, just iffy, so you people with raceguns under your pillow dont strangle me here...

Optics are always advantageous from a shooting standpoint but require special holster, not very concealable, require batteries, more fragile than iron sights, not totally necessary in your average close range defense situation.

Super Light triggers are great to shoot but can be dangerous. Shouldnt be a problem with someone experienced with their gun. But also not totally necesary.

A gun finely tuned to work best with a very specific load... Sure you get great performance but its also a limitation in SOME guns.

A gun that is designed specifically to meet required specifications for a sport (size, weight, caliber or power factor) is most likely sacrificing something else (besides just money).

Sure you could kill bad guys with em, but there are better choices for defense. I would love to build a nice limited or open uspsa gun one day. But ill always have a basic eat anything work everytime simple pistol under my bed.

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 9:29 PM
IDPA takes a great deal of pride in endeavoring to do just that. That's why there is often friction between IDPA and USPSA, SC and other shooters.

Yea, because there are points, static targets, and rules in real life. LOL.

IDPA is a game. It's just a different game.

If there is a timer, and points, it is a game. Period.

After all, the real world is "open."

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 9:35 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

Bingo. I was wondering about that. That's precisely why a .22LR "racegun" times in SC are faster than their centerfire brethren.

Low recoil is such an (obvious) advantage that shooters often have to demonstrate a minimum power factor.

Steel challenge is just one aspect of competition shooting.

You are telling me a USPSA 9 major open gun shoots light loads? Absolute rubbish.

9 major is loaded to levels wayyy beyond SAAMI spec.

If the loads are too light on a gun built for 9 major, there will not be enough gas for the comp to work, and the slide won't even cycle.

Have you guys ever RO'd a 9 major Open shooter? The concussive blast is unreal depending on the compensator/load used.

Using a light recoil spring is not just about getting light load to cycle. I am sorry. I can shoot recoil springs in my STI between 10-16 pounds. I choose 12.5 because of the way the sights track and fall back into place on consecutive shots. There is more to springing a gun than just loads.

JaeOne3345
08-20-2012, 9:40 PM
Race guns are fed custom loaded light loads and not hi power max loads to keep recoil at min thus thats why light recoil springs are used. Highlander got it backwards.

Either you are really sarcastic or you've never shot limited or open.

Preach.

modls7
08-20-2012, 9:46 PM
Raceguns are the pinnacle of handgun performance, maximizing reliability, accuracy, speed, ergonomics, and aesthetics. You won't find all of these attributes in a factory gun as you will with a custom racegun. I think of a custom limited gun like a SLR McLaren. Beauty, performance, innovation...that's a big part of what makes a racegun appealing.

Most limited guns can and do run a variety of ammo without hiccups as my two of my three limited guns do regularly. In fact the gun in my avatar went almost 4k maintenance free rounds and only stopped because I was dropping my mags in clay out in some BLM land which fed into my chamber. I think its been 4 years since my backup STI had a malfunction too, which is pretty impressive considering the 2k rounds a month I was putting through it.

The one pistol I have that has special ammo needs is a glock 35 with stock internals, this is the only pistol I have that requires "special loads" or else I get FTFs. Pretty surprising to me considering I bought it because I thought I would never live to see the thing malfunction, I was really rooting for this pistol to become the frontrunner in my stable too due to its "acceptable combat accuracy" and "uncompromising reliability". This pistol also kicks quite a bit harder compared to my STIs with the same ammo. I suspect because there is no mainspring to help slow down slide velocity.

I actually don't know what would make my limited pistol unsuitable for self defense. It's demonstrated unwaivering reliability in wet and dusty conditions, superb accuracy, fast follow up shots with hot ammo, and it is almost impossible for me to miss a reload.

RugerNo1
08-20-2012, 10:03 PM
...

I actually don't know what would make my limited pistol unsuitable for self defense. It's demonstrated unwaivering reliability in wet and dusty conditions, superb accuracy, fast follow up shots with hot ammo, and it is almost impossible for me to miss a reload.

Dude, you will not be able to conceal that big *** limited gun under your camo wife-beater while you are driving to the grocery store in your 5.11 pants hoping to walk into a ambush where you will have to fight for your life from multiple angles!

Everyone knows that the only reason to own a gun is so you can take tactical classes, right?

Gentlemen, it is a game. Why did we start talking about "real life" and tactical defensive tactics?...tactical ( I felt like this post needed one more)

JTROKS
08-20-2012, 11:23 PM
This one is more suited for carry.

http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-tactical-4-0/

zfields
08-20-2012, 11:42 PM
This thread is going places....

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 1:56 AM
Bingo. I was wondering about that. That's precisely why a .22LR "racegun" times in SC are faster than their centerfire brethren.

Low recoil is such an (obvious) advantage that shooters often have to demonstrate a minimum power factor.

Either you are really sarcastic or you've never shot limited or open.

Get over it already. All else being equal (quality of shooters, classes, etc.), stages are won by those shooting .22LR pistols. Limited recoil is a distinct advantage. Quite a few around here shoot more than one pistol during a SC match. Open and Open Rimfire is a typical combo that many shooters (fast shooters at that) enter and their rimfire times are almost always faster.

You might be upset that your $4.5K STI super-duper can't compete with a $2K Volquartsen super-duper, but your anger stems from physics. Sorry about that.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 1:59 AM
Yea, because there are points, static targets, and rules in real life. LOL.

IDPA is a game. It's just a different game.

If there is a timer, and points, it is a game. Period.

After all, the real world is "open."

I don't think shooting a gun is ever a "game", even when it's done in competition, "LOL."

enzo357
08-21-2012, 7:16 AM
The thought that an open gun shooter can not use a "real world gun" is so funny. Shot local competition this last week. Two guys joined our squad, one shot open. Guy was great and did well every stage. About three stages in, find out that he is a navy seal for the last 7 years. Would dare to say he is probably pretty good with a "real world gun". One thing for sure, he was great with a race gun.
Currently shooting limited. Used to shoot ss and production, had some success and wanted to see if limited could make me a better shooter. Back to origional question, I bought a sti limited gun to shoot comps. The gun is amazing, and really fun to shoot. To me worth every penny.
Good shooting all...

CalTeacher
08-21-2012, 7:32 AM
Get over it already. All else being equal (quality of shooters, classes, etc.), stages are won by those shooting .22LR pistols. Limited recoil is a distinct advantage. Quite a few around here shoot more than one pistol during a SC match. Open and Open Rimfire is a typical combo that many shooters (fast shooters at that) enter and their rimfire times are almost always faster.

You might be upset that your $4.5K STI super-duper can't compete with a $2K Volquartsen super-duper, but your anger stems from physics. Sorry about that.

I think you're confused. I'm not talking about SC. You're talking about guns and comparing apples to oranges. Do you understand how what the minimum power floor is for USPSA Limited major and Open? This is a simple matter of math. USPSA open guns and limited major guns don't shoot reduced loads. Period. I don't really know why you came out with the STI v. Volquartsen comparison...that really had nothing to do with anything.

For the record, my limited gun is a G22 with a few upgrades. I'm hurling 180gr. bullets at about 975 fps. Hardly downloaded.

For those who think that race guns aren't suited for home defense...why? These guns shoot extremely high pressure ammo with boring reliability. They're not exactly fragile. They are accurate, have great optics, and extremely light and crisp triggers. Yes, they are bigger than a box stock sig or glock, or whatever you would normally use for home defense, but they would still work extremely well.

People need to get out of the mindset that competition shooters can only shoot in competition. I run competitively, but I would imagine I would still know how to run fast if I was running for my life with a crazed crackhead chasing me. Kind of like how Mike Tyson could still whoop some arse outside of a boxing ring. Just because you're good at a game, doesn't mean you're only good with your skills within the context of that game.

JTROKS
08-21-2012, 8:05 AM
There's too much confusion going on. :confused:

How did a 22 end up competing with an Open class racegun? If that's the case everyone will just shoot 22lr due to ammo cost. :D

The only match I have heard of pitting all class of firearms in the same class is SC, not the Steel Challenge we are talking about, but Second Chance.

JaeOne3345
08-21-2012, 8:26 AM
I don't think shooting a gun is ever a "game", even when it's done in competition, "LOL."

Game, sport, etc. Really?

If the entire point of a USPSA stage is to hit every target within a certain area in a short amount of time. That is not a game/sport?

Racing against a clock? Being awarded points for doing so? Being penalized for breaking rules?

That isn't a game or sport?

It sure isn't real life because there are no equipment divisions, timers, or rules in "real life."

zfields
08-21-2012, 8:27 AM
Game, sport, etc. Really?

If the entire point of a USPSA stage is to hit every target within a certain area in a short amount of time. That is not a game/sport?

Racing against a clock? Being awarded points for doing so? Being penalized for breaking rules?

That isn't a game or sport?

It sure isn't real life because there are no equipment divisions, timers, or rules in "real life."

There is so much :facepalm: going on in this thread, and you chose that to point out ? :chris:

JaeOne3345
08-21-2012, 8:28 AM
How many folks in this thread actually compete or spend time with competition guns?

Seems like the thread is the typical "I am gonna comment on what I heard" stuff that makes this forum more lame by the day.

JaeOne3345
08-21-2012, 8:31 AM
There is so much :facepalm: going on in this thread, and you chose that to point out ? :chris:

I'm just amazed and entertained with that logic ((((((closedminded)))))))))

Goes back to what I said about people not being able to handle the concept that equipment evolution over time may result in it NOT being used for its intended purpose.

Is driving a formula 1 car on a race track still never competition, because the original purpose of a car was for transportation instead of pushing the barriers of racing/speed?

Insane.

HighLander51
08-21-2012, 9:09 AM
How many folks in this thread actually compete or spend time with competition guns?

Seems like the thread is the typical "I am gonna comment on what I heard" stuff that makes this forum more lame by the day.

Yea, I overheard a guy talking at Turners the other that his brother's friend, who used to be a cop, was shooting with some dudes up at Donkey Gorge, and he saw some chick running an Open Class AR-47 pistol with a 12x42 night vision laser scope, and a 300 round magazine taking 6" plates at 800 yards off hand....

There is only one kind of shooter, the kind that actually shoots and comments from observations.

The other kind is a surfer, not a shooter, the kind that says "I have never shot a competition match, but I am going to use my HiPoint pistol, Ruger carbine, and Maverick pump shotgun for the USPSA 3 Gun Nationals"

ZombieTactics
08-21-2012, 9:51 AM
....
There is only one kind of shooter, the kind that actually shoots and comments from observations.

The other kind is a surfer, not a shooter, the kind that says "I have never shot a competition match, but I am going to use my HiPoint pistol, Ruger carbine, and Maverick pump shotgun for the USPSA 3 Gun Nationals"

You present something of a false dichotomy here. It's not an either/or question, as there are many different kinds of shooters who shoot/train/practice/compete/hunt with different goals and aspirations in mind. There is quite a bit of overlap in the shooting disciplines, which can lead one to thinking that they all are the "same thing". It takes about 5 minutes or less of thought to realize that they are not the same thing at all.

joefreas
08-21-2012, 9:54 AM
That was pretty cool! I was there when he did that.

I shot that stage last week at the IPSC match. Sadly not in under 2 seconds though.

Lead Waster
08-21-2012, 9:55 AM
Did I ever say it's the gun??? You compete against the same gun in uspsa. If you shoot a stock glock (except G17L or G24) with little mods like trigger upgrade sights (production) you compete in production division. If you shoot open then you shoot against race guns with optics. I never said it's the gun! It's all about what division you want to compete in. And of course skills!

I don't understand why you are being defensive when I'm agreeing with you.

Lead Waster
08-21-2012, 10:18 AM
OK, I don't know about "real life" usage, and hope never to find out, but this is MY experience;

I am a better shooter since I started shooting USPSA matches. It made me do a bit of research into stances and grips (ie; thumbs forward, etc). When I shot my first few matches, other more experienced shooters would point things out to me that helped me actually get more accurate, again things like grip. The rules are VERY strict for safety sake and I was really flubbing things like trigger discipline. When you are at the static line shooting paper, usually, you pick up the gun, shoot and put the gun back on the table when the magazine is empty. Other shooters warned me how I was not pulling my finger out of the trigger gaurd when I reloaded, or when I moved my feet to another shooting position with rounds still in the gun.
It taught me to not shoot til slide lock and to count my rounds.
It made me practice reloading.
It made me do malfunction drills under time pressure (tap rack bang, etc) which I never did at the static range.
It made me very aware of the status of my gun (loaded, muzzle direction, trigger discipline, etc, etc, etc) and made me constantly think of safety considerations.

So basically, it made me a better shooter because it gave me trigger time and experience in simple gun handling.

It gave me familiarity with my gun that you can only get when you are using it. So it gave me confidence that I know how to properly and safely handle a gun.

I don't use my guns for HD/SD because I have young kids so the guns are in a safe. It's not that I don't trust them, but their bedroom is directly across the hall from mine so I couldn't shoot someone standing at the foot of my bed anyway.

Also, competition gives me a reason to even have guns and try to improve my shooting. At one point I was thinking to myself "Why did I buy all these guns? So I can punch paper at the range every other month?" but the USPSA matches have re-invigorated my appreciation for them. Since then, I've also tried skeet shooting and I've signed up for an Appleseed rifle clinic.

Oh and thinking about analogies for the OP's original (and mostly forgotten!) question, I was thinking that bicycles would be a better analogy, in terms of technology and comparable costs. A $150 Walmart 10 speed is great and will get you to school or the park and is fun, but in a race, it would be hard to compete with the ultra lite, ultra smooth $3000 race bike with carbon fiber frame and disc brakes. And you can feel the difference when you ride them. Do you need a $3000 race bike to enjoy riding? No, but it helps in competition, especially against other $3000 bikes. But the bike won't win the race without a good cyclist on board!

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 12:41 PM
Game, sport, etc. Really?

If the entire point of a USPSA stage is to hit every target within a certain area in a short amount of time. That is not a game/sport?

Racing against a clock? Being awarded points for doing so? Being penalized for breaking rules?

That isn't a game or sport?

It sure isn't real life because there are no equipment divisions, timers, or rules in "real life."

Sporting competitions are not "games."

zfields
08-21-2012, 1:01 PM
Sporting competitions are not "games."

Football Games
Baseball Games
Olympic Games
Soccer Games

JaeOne3345
08-21-2012, 1:04 PM
Sporting competitions are not "games."

Football is a sport. It is a competition between two teams, no? What is a football game?

Calguns......Jesus Christ. What is happening to this place?

Has to be a troll. Has to be.

hkdad
08-21-2012, 1:05 PM
Sporting competitions are not "games."

You my friend need to put down the crack pipe.... :confused:

JaeOne3345
08-21-2012, 1:10 PM
His idea of "game" must only encompass things like Monopoly, Chess, Bingo, etc.

I can't think of any other reason for such extreme ignorance in regards to understanding such a concept.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 1:25 PM
His idea of "game" must only encompass things like Monopoly, Chess, Bingo, etc.

I can't think of any other reason for such extreme ignorance in regards to understanding such a concept.

Are you looking into a mirror?

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 1:26 PM
You my friend need to put down the crack pipe.... :confused:

I'm not your friend. I don't own a "crack pipe" -- stop projecting your own evil addiction.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 1:27 PM
Football is a sport. It is a competition between two teams, no? What is a football game?

Calguns......Jesus Christ. What is happening to this place?

Has to be a troll. Has to be.

Now you use the Lord's name in vain? Off to the ignore can!

hkdad
08-21-2012, 1:33 PM
We have some serious TROLL in here. LMFAO :rofl:

joefreas
08-21-2012, 1:47 PM
We have some serious TROLL in here. LMFAO :rofl:

Its not a troll its a game!

Wait wut?

LOL @ 1 star thread rating!

zfields
08-21-2012, 1:50 PM
Now you use the Lord's name in vain? Off to the ignore can!

Just so i can be put on the list also.


Jesus christ its hot out

JaeOne3345
08-21-2012, 1:55 PM
Is this guy really serious? LOL.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 1:56 PM
We have some serious TROLL in here. LMFAO

You should know...

JeremyS
08-21-2012, 1:57 PM
I was hoping for some more gun porn photos in here. Thread = disappointment. Thank god & jesus I didn't read it any of it. Good lord.

hkdad
08-21-2012, 2:06 PM
I was hoping for some more gun porn photos in here. Thread = disappointment. Thank god & jesus I didn't read it any of it. Good lord.

Go ahead and read it if you want to have a good laugh... We have to keep feeding the troll!

After all.... It's all a game! LoL

tal3nt
08-21-2012, 2:11 PM
Horsepower

EDIT: BTW, Jesus Christ!

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 2:20 PM
There's too much confusion going on. :confused:

How did a 22 end up competing with an Open class racegun? If that's the case everyone will just shoot 22lr due to ammo cost. :D

The only match I have heard of pitting all class of firearms in the same class is SC, not the Steel Challenge we are talking about, but Second Chance.

Any SC match I have shot breaks the results down by class and then "overall." I'm not suggesting it would in any way be fair to run a .22LR against a centerfire handgun in the same class. If it was you are right -- most everyone would switch to .22's.

For that matter in .22 rimfire action shooting, they often specify the use of .22LR ammo, as using shorts can also be an advantage if your gun will reliably cycle them.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 2:30 PM
It does bother quite a few that everything else being equal, a .22LR pistol can be faster through a given stage than a centerfire pistol. Particularly it seems when the centerfire pistol is of the pricey "race" variety. Is it fair to run rimfire pistols against approved centerfire pistols in the same class in this context? Nope, but the "overall" times for any SC match bear out the truth that with everything else equal, .22's are faster.

I think this is very much why the Cowboy Action shooters freak-out and get downright nasty and the thought of using .22's for adults. After awhile a huge number would be using them based on ammo costs alone. The terribly downloaded 32's would be things of the past. So would a lot of the larger calibers...

zfields
08-21-2012, 2:40 PM
It does bother quite a few that everything else being equal, a .22LR pistol can be faster through a given stage than a centerfire pistol. Particularly it seems when the centerfire pistol is of the pricey "race" variety. Is it fair to run rimfire pistols against approved centerfire pistols in the same class in this context? Nope, but the "overall" times for any SC match bear out the truth that with everything else equal, .22's are faster.

I think this is very much why the Cowboy Action shooters freak-out and get downright nasty and the thought of using .22's for adults. After awhile a huge number would be using them based on ammo costs alone. The terribly downloaded 32's would be things of the past. So would a lot of the larger calibers...

SASS shooters are already shooting powder puffs, their opinion doesnt matter :43:

joelogic
08-21-2012, 2:49 PM
TL;DR. I like onion rings.

Stock vs. comp
is
reliable vs. finicky.

viet4lifeOC
08-21-2012, 2:53 PM
Why don't LEO and military carry "race" guns.

Euphoria526
08-21-2012, 2:57 PM
I have officially become more Stoopid by reading this thread.
I agree with:
Zfields
Hkdad and those who actually have competed. I am ignorant to the fact. I am Saving up fOr starting the comps myself and hate when people mud it up for everyone else

zfields
08-21-2012, 2:57 PM
Why don't LEO and military carry "race" guns.

Many reasons, afew being cost + maintenance. Not to mention they are deafening loud.

HighLander51
08-21-2012, 3:02 PM
There is quite a bit of overlap in the shooting disciplines, which can lead one to thinking that they all are the "same thing". It takes about 5 minutes or less of thought to realize that they are not the same thing at all.

The only overlap is it all involves shooting, and at the end of the day, they are the same, to be faster and more accurate. You won't get anywhere by shooting slower and missing. Do you hunt or shoot competition?

viet4lifeOC
08-21-2012, 3:28 PM
Many reasons, afew being cost + maintenance. Not to mention they are deafening loud.

I understand cost, maintenance, and department policy issues, but cost and maintenance doesn't seem sufficient at the risk of losing one's life?

Or SEALs (and I presume other special ops) who can buy any weapon?

I am definitely curious?

ZombieTactics
08-21-2012, 4:45 PM
The only overlap is it all involves shooting, and at the end of the day, they are the same
Your opinion is noted. Simply stating it does not make it so. The differences are obvious, and partly detailed earlier. Fast/accurate hits alone don't do anything to keep you from soaking up rounds, because even fatal hits give the BG many, many seconds to shoot back. This was partly the point of the Tueller drill ... there is no way to "solve" that problem simply through shooting quickly/accurately. Again I'll reference Jelly Bryce, 19 BGs dead at his hands, laughed at in competition ... they are not the same thing at all, and this can be readily demonstrated.

You won't get anywhere by shooting slower and missing. Do you hunt or shoot competition? I have hunted. You certainly do "get somewhere" by taking your damned time and getting the shot right. The skills of hunting are optimized towards stealth and patience. The skills of competition are optimized for speed. The skills of self-defense are optimized towards not getting hit while you return fire. There's your difference in brief, and there are others as well.

The charming, folksy "it's all just shooting" doesn't hold up under even minimal scrutiny. That makes no more sense than saying "it's all just driving" and assuming that all F1 racers are equally qualified to drive NASCAR. Some are, most aren't, and none of them would tell you that the required skills are identical. There's along list of drivers who have learned that lesson through their own failures.

I see evidence of this in almost any class I've taken where a comp shooter takes his first or second SD/HD oriented class. They literally fumble around as though they've no idea what they are doing under the stress of the simplest exercise which contain any hint of ambiguity. This happened again only a week or so ago ... a person noted to be a "great competitive shooter" making flopping around like a noob. Clearly they (comp only shooters) have skills, but the wheels come off pretty quickly when they aren't in familiar territory. There is no insult in that observation, it's simply true. I can readily admit that I would absolutely suck at competition, as I don't pretend to be skilled at that which I have not practiced.

The opposite seems not to hold true for such as yourself, who appear to assume skill at everything because they have mastered some level of skill at one thing. I wish it were easier to disabuse you of such notions, but I don't think you are open to anything beyond your stated prejudices.

bsim
08-21-2012, 4:45 PM
There are only three sports - bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.

bsim
08-21-2012, 4:55 PM
...Again I'll reference Jelly Bryce, 19 BGs dead at his hands, laughed at in competition ... they are not the same thing at all, and this can be readily demonstrated.

...The skills of self-defense are optimized towards not getting hit while you return fire.The shooting games are games, and until you can actively participate in a live-fire exercise, where your life is truly on the line, you will never know either.The charming, folksy "it's all just shooting" doesn't hold up under even minimal scrutiny. That makes no more sense than saying "it's all just driving" and assuming that all F1 racers are equally qualified to drive NASCAR. Some are, most aren't, and none of them would tell you that the required skills are identical. There's along list of drivers who have learned that lesson through their own failures.True to a point, but ALL professional drivers will wheel your civic around a track much faster than you, even though they've never driven it, and you have 180,000 miles of experience in it.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 7:58 PM
SASS shooters are already shooting powder puffs, their opinion doesnt matter

One does wonder why they go through the expense and time to (down)load 32's when they could just buy a brick of .22's at wal*mart on the way to a shoot.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 8:02 PM
Why don't LEO and military carry "race" guns.

The military's M4's are QUITE RACY...

Most LEO's I know can't shoot anyway. Giving them a gun whose sighting system often takes a battery, and is physically too large (compensator and mag well flare) for them to sit in their cruisers is a poor idea.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 8:19 PM
I think you're confused. I'm not talking about SC. You're talking about guns and comparing apples to oranges. Do you understand how what the minimum power floor is for USPSA Limited major and Open? This is a simple matter of math. USPSA open guns and limited major guns don't shoot reduced loads. Period. I don't really know why you came out with the STI v. Volquartsen comparison...that really had nothing to do with anything.

It's you that is either in denial or cannot comprehend what I am writing. Read this carefully. When I show up at an SC match there are typically 40 or so other shooters. There are several different classes -- everything from Open centerfire "race guns" to single action revolvers and everything in between. Shooters often bring more than one gun and compete in more than one class. Now focus, here it come:

If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?

In fact in many cases some very fast shooters will also shoot the match using a centerfire race gun and their aggregate time for the match will be slower than they one they recorded shooting a .22LR firearm, "period."

...People need to get out of the mindset that competition shooters can only shoot in competition. I run competitively, but I would imagine I would still know how to run fast if I was running for my life with a crazed crackhead chasing me. Kind of like how Mike Tyson could still whoop some arse outside of a boxing ring. Just because you're good at a game, doesn't mean you're only good with your skills within the context of that game.

I didn't suggest that.

CalTeacher
08-21-2012, 9:32 PM
It's you that is either in denial or cannot comprehend what I am writing. Read this carefully. When I show up at an SC match there are typically 40 or so other shooters. There are several different classes -- everything from Open centerfire "race guns" to single action revolvers and everything in between. Shooters often bring more than one gun and compete in more than one class. Now focus, here it come:

If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?

In fact in many cases some very fast shooters will also shoot the match using a centerfire race gun and their aggregate time for the match will be slower than they one they recorded shooting a .22LR firearm, "period."



I didn't suggest that.

Here are the problems with what you're saying:

1. You're comparing centerfire open guns to rimfire guns from different disciplines. Apples to oranges. But if you want to make that comparison...

2. Speed is one of three components you need to be successful in USPSA, which is what I was referring to. Accuracy, power, and speed. Bring that rimfire gun and run it in a USPSA match (even though you won't even make minor) and see if you can beat someone shooting 9mm major through an open gun. All the speed in the world won't mean a thing when your poppers don't fall. But then again, you shouldn't expect to do well in this situation because that's not how the game is set up. Get it?

3. Open race guns in USPSA don't shoot reduced power loads because they're not supposed to because of minimum power requirements and due to the fact that you need high pressure ammo to work a compensator. Comparing a gun that has to meet a 165pf to rimfire in a match where rimfires rule is like saying a formula 1 car will beat a dragster on a circular track.

4. I never said you suggested that competitors wouldn't know how to shoot in a real life situation. That's why I said "people." I was addressing multiple people who seem to believe that nonsense that have posted in this thread.

I hope this cleared up some of your confusion.

bsim
08-21-2012, 9:44 PM
If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?Which is why there are different classes. And no, in the "official" Steel Challenge (www.steelchallenge.com), .22 are NOT considered in "overall" results.

RugerNo1
08-21-2012, 10:34 PM
This argument is still going? The OP did not ask about self defence, the scoring/legitimacy of .22 rimfire in Steel Challenge, how tactical we can be in a self defence/gunfight scenario, or how a competition shooter may/may not be able to defend himself in a "real gunfight."

In the spirit of getting back on track...


The OP asked about the difference between this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Glock17.jpg/300px-Glock17.jpg

And, this:

http://www.glockjockey.com/images/glockjockey%20071_400px.gif

Which seems to have been, somehow, already explained between the .22s in SC and tacticool "real gunfights" discussion...

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 11:14 PM
Here are the problems with what you're saying:

1. You're comparing centerfire open guns to rimfire guns from different disciplines. Apples to oranges. But if you want to make that comparison...

2. Speed is one of three components you need to be successful in USPSA, which is what I was referring to. Accuracy, power, and speed. Bring that rimfire gun and run it in a USPSA match (even though you won't even make minor) and see if you can beat someone shooting 9mm major through an open gun. All the speed in the world won't mean a thing when your poppers don't fall. But then again, you shouldn't expect to do well in this situation because that's not how the game is set up. Get it?

3. Open race guns in USPSA don't shoot reduced power loads because they're not supposed to because of minimum power requirements and due to the fact that you need high pressure ammo to work a compensator. Comparing a gun that has to meet a 165pf to rimfire in a match where rimfires rule is like saying a formula 1 car will beat a dragster on a circular track.

4. I never said you suggested that competitors wouldn't know how to shoot in a real life situation. That's why I said "people." I was addressing multiple people who seem to believe that nonsense that have posted in this thread.

I hope this cleared up some of your confusion.

1.) I covered that WAY back in this thread! Go look if you doubt me.

2.) I was speaking to SC. Please stick to the subject.

3.) So?

4.) Not sure if you have to qualities to realize/accept the truth but the confusion rests with you.

Excelsior
08-21-2012, 11:21 PM
Which is why there are different classes. And no, in the "official" Steel Challenge (www.steelchallenge.com), .22 are NOT considered in "overall" results.

Can you read?

Take ALL the scores from an SC match and sort them by overall aggregate time without regard to the class/category. The fastest of the day will be rimfire shooters. Deal with that reality.

And with the real possibility of your head exploding, I'll also mention that the title of Steel Master (an official SC title) goes to the person who shots the fastest combined centerfire and rimfire times...

JTROKS
08-22-2012, 12:12 AM
I think this thread is near closed.

Let's stick to the original subject for we haven't touched the difference between a polymer 2011 vs all steel such as Caspian or Para Ord.

BTW, hope we provided enough information about racegun vs stock.

CalTeacher
08-22-2012, 6:11 AM
1.) I covered that WAY back in this thread! Go look if you doubt me.

2.) I was speaking to SC. Please stick to the subject.

3.) So?

4.) Not sure if you have to qualities to realize/accept the truth but the confusion rests with you.

:facepalm:

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 7:18 AM
The shooting games are games, and until you can actively participate in a live-fire exercise, where your life is truly on the line, you will never know either.
Somewhat, but the experience of those who have is strongly indicative.


True to a point, but ALL professional drivers will wheel your civic around a track much faster than you, even though they've never driven it, and you have 180,000 miles of experience in it.
Which sort of makes my point: there are partly overlapping skill sets. To apply the analogy further, I have no trouble believing that a good comp shooter (F1) or someone with significant SD/HD/FoF training (NASCAR) can generally handle a gun better than someone who goes plinking on the weekends occasionally (Civic).

HighLander51
08-22-2012, 8:31 AM
The opposite seems not to hold true for such as yourself, who appear to assume skill at everything because they have mastered some level of skill at one thing. I wish it were easier to disabuse you of such notions, but I don't think you are open to anything beyond your stated prejudices.

I know who Jelly Bryce is and have read his book, along with a number of other famous gunfighters. So let's put it on the table, you are not a soldier, not a cop, don't have a CCW permit and do not shoot competitively. That pretty much leaves you with a couple of NRA classes. So why would I take anything you say as the right experience? I take my training from guys that are top competitive shooters, are ex-military and current active duty police.

HighLander51
08-22-2012, 8:38 AM
a person noted to be a "great competitive shooter" making flopping around like a noob.



Yea, right, and the shooter told you he was a great competitive shooter, uh huh, did he also tell you what his classification was in USPSA and what division he shoots? That's because any real competitor is not going to talk about that stuff in a defensive pistol class. Here is a 'Real' competitive shooter, does he look like he is fumbling? Competitive shooters do more weapon manipulation in one stage of USPSA than training does during an entire day. Ok, low ready, transition to weak hand, engage, oooh, don't know if I can handle that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 9:00 AM
I know who Jelly Bryce is and have read his book, along with a number of other famous gunfighters.
Excellent, so have I.

So let's put it on the table, you are not a soldier, not a cop ... Admittedly, but your point is what? Military training is amazingly basic for the vast majority of enlisted personnel, even more so for the vast majority of LEO. The last time I checked, something like 90% or LE take no training beyond what they receive at the academy, and never have occasion to draw their sidearm over a 20-year career.

... don't have a CCW permit ... Wrong, but also not really important.

... and do not shoot competitively ... Which speaks to nothing but your prejudices in this regard, and somewhat documents my earlier assertion to the effect that you are not open to anything beyond them.

That pretty much leaves you with a couple of NRA classes Again ... wrong. You really like to jump to conclusions without full consideration or research, don't you?

So why would I take anything you say as the right experience? I've never claimed to be an expert, certainly not your teacher, just a guy with a perspective. My experience does include being the victim of violent crime on 4 occasions, twice at gunpoint. That kind of thing tends to alter one's view of "reality" towards something more real.

I take my training from guys that are top competitive shooters, are ex-military and current active duty police. So do I, although I trend more towards those with active experience than those who are strictly competitors. Was there a point to your comment?

The summation of your comments doesn't really say anything about the discussion itself. It's more just a laundry list of what or who you think is important. That's called an opinion, and I'd never say that you aren't as welcome to yours as anyone. I'd be far more interested in your thought processes and what logic you claim to support your opinions however.

bsim
08-22-2012, 9:19 AM
Can you read?

Take ALL the scores from an SC match and sort them by overall aggregate time without regard to the class/category. The fastest of the day will be rimfire shooters. Deal with that reality.

And with the real possibility of your head exploding, I'll also mention that the title of Steel Master (an official SC title) goes to the person who shots the fastest combined centerfire and rimfire times...I can read just fine. Understand your point, not so much.

Yes, in Steel Challenge, rimfire is usually faster than centerfire. Duh. And they start low ready too, another advantage. BUT, when you look at the results, rimfire is separate from centerfire when getting the overall winner. Yes, Steel Master is best combined score, but the Steel Challenge World Champion is the fastest centerfire shooter, and does not have to shoot rimfire.

I also don't understand what this has to do with the original question - what's the difference between a racegun and a production gun. At a national or world level competition, the smallest projectile is .355 except for Steel Challenge which has 2 .22 classes (iron and optic).

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 9:33 AM
Yea, right, and the shooter told you he was a great competitive shooter, uh huh, did he also tell you what his classification was in USPSA and what division he shoots?
You sure jump to a lot of conclusions without any evidence. The statement regarding his skill was made by a third party, who I did not interrogate regarding the matter ... or should I have? The statement was roughly along the lines of "he's a great shooter, wins tournaments all the time. He shoots cowboy action too, and can shoot a DA revolver better/faster than most guys can shoot a semi-auto". I can attest that he could shoot, BTW ... he just fell apart under the minimal pressure of ambiguous exercises requiring thinking on one's feet.

That's because any real competitor is not going to talk about that stuff in a defensive pistol class.
It's amazing that you claim to speak for everyone in this regard. I think a "real competitor" is someone who shoots in competition. What they say or who they say it to is quite besides the point. You're pretty close to engaging the "no real Frenchman" logical fallacy.

Here is a 'Real' competitive shooter, does he look like he is fumbling?
Did I say that any particular competitor was fumbling in competition? I didn't, so I don't see your point.

Competitive shooters do more weapon manipulation in one stage of USPSA than training does during an entire day. ... Really? Oh come on now, you're just speaking from your prejudices again. We're all friends here (I hope) and there isn't any cause for that kind of posturing or bluster. I think most people who have done ... or even witnessed ... both know better. Even fairly low tempo courses involve 20-30 mag changes or more in a day, for instance. That's low for many courses. I don't know of any typical, single comp stage like that, do you? What do you think actually happens in a typical HD training class or day of FoF exercises?

zfields
08-22-2012, 9:43 AM
The military's M4's are QUITE RACY...


14.5 barrels
m4 barrel profiles
carbine gas systems
full auto (heavy) carriers/bolts
heavy triggers
non freefloated rails systems
collapsible stocks
flash hiders


Pretty much the opposite of a "race" ar 15.

I'm pretty convinced you have no idea what you are talking about outside Steel Challenge, so you should probably just stick to commenting on that.

JaeOne3345
08-22-2012, 11:14 AM
What do you think actually happens in a typical HD training class or day of FoF exercises?

Serious question. Who do you train with that actually uses/does/trains force on force?

Many "tactical" classes I see (yes, even in person) are nothing more than people on a firing line shooting at a static target, with some self proclaimed combat expert just shouting out commands. I do not find this realistic at all, especially for people who have more than mediocre weapon handling skills. Paying 300-400 bucks for a class to shoot on a line with a bunch of other people all under the same commands at the same damn time seems like a total waste of money.

I'd be interested in finding out where these FoF classes are. Are they using airsoft?

HighLander51
08-22-2012, 11:36 AM
ZT,"I don't pretend to be an "authority. I'm just a guy who trains a lot and has a perspective." Are you getting any faster or more accurate?

Why do you think Col. Cooper invented IPSC???

JTROKS
08-22-2012, 11:48 AM
I retired from the USAF after 22 years and 4 months with 3 tours to the desert. I've been in a unit were we required to be qualified on the M16 and M9, some depending on rank were qualified on M203, M60, M240 and M249. My main job is not to be a shooter but to operate air control equipment in a combat environment. This meant if we had to convoy our equipment through areas in Iraq or Afghanistan then we deal with it, and if we get support from the trained security with those racy M4s and Precision DMRs and sniper rifles that makes me feel more safe. Most of the firearms training was basically standard marksmanship qualification and the deployment of the mentioned firearms depends on the situation we got our self into. Doesn't make me quite an expert, but all that training combined with what I learned shooting USPSA and SC would have helped me survive a firefight. Thank God never had to prove it. Most folks will say how does that apply to this thread? It doesn't because it's about racegun vs stock gun.
:rolleyes: ;)

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 11:58 AM
ZT,"I don't pretend to be an "authority. I'm just a guy who trains a lot and has a perspective." Are you getting any faster or more accurate?

Why do you think Col. Cooper invented IPSC???
A more useful conversation could be had if you'd address some of my points or arguments, instead of just ignoring them and jumping onto the next thing or changing the subject. There is so much I could learn from someone like you, but that's not possible without an actual conversation.

I'll happily address your your questions in that same spirit of open exchange of ideas:


I am much faster, and much more accurate than I was a year ago, that's for sure. I also have the good sense (partly from actual experience) to know that surviving an SD/HD incident involves quite a bit more than just shooting quickly and accurately. The known cases open to examination seem to indicate that as well. The real world is not a quick-draw competition. I don't doubt the value of participating in competition, I simply perceive limits which you don't, and which you seem unwilling to even consider.
I understand Cooper's reason for starting IPSC. I also understand that he came to regret the "game" it has become, and pretty much avoided any association with it past a certain point. If you are going to invoke someone like Cooper or Hackathorn ... those who had so much to do with creating IPSC, IDPA, etc. ... please invoke the total sum of their wisdom, and not just self-serving, cherry-picked factoids devoid of context.

HighLander51
08-22-2012, 12:01 PM
ZT, did you go to Berkeley?

Here is my kid after 2 months in competition, try that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV6eonFMH6o&feature=relmfu

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 12:18 PM
ZT, did you go to Berkeley?
Pointless comment, dropping context, and not really having any bearing on the discussion.

Here is my kid after 2 months in competition, try that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV6eonFMH6o&feature=relmfu
Good times with static, clearly-defined targets and no movement. I hope you aren't looking for me to criticize the young man's performance? If I wanted to get nasty I'd note that he ran out of ammo and failed to reload at the appropriate point ... on a sunny day with nobody shooting back. That's a mindset issue, not a shooting issue. What would be the point of such an observation regarding someone you ID as a beginner? Just be proud of what he has accomplished and leave it at that. I would however, put forth the notion that he'd probably get pasted in any of the FoF oriented classes I've attended. Maybe you too ... who knows. That's not based upon any estimation of your considerable shooting skills or his ... simply a recounting of what I've seen happen over-n-over. It's a very humbling experience. I am certain that my first competition experiences will be similarly enlightening/humbling. Where is the argument?

It's a funny thing though ... my stated opinion is that shooting quickly/accurately is not the sum total of necessary skills needed to survive an SD/HD encounter, and your counter to that opinion is to simply show someone shooting quickly/accurately. How does that even address my point? It's a virtual non-sequitur from the start.

elSquid
08-22-2012, 12:48 PM
Excellent, so have I.

I'm embarrassed to say that I hadn't heard of Jelly Bryce. So I looked him up:

http://www.officer.com/article/10233523/legendary-lawman-jelly-bryce

Bryce gained an extremely early reputation as a crack shot with some of his early neighbors saying that, even at the age of ten, he never missed. It was apparently more common to see Bryce walking with either his .22 rifle or his air-rifle than to see him without it. Apparently his favored use for the .22 was to hunt rabbits and shoot tin cans. Immediately after graduating from high school Bryce entered a citizen's military camp (no such thing exists anymore) held at Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. In the course of the camp he won first place in pistol and rifle competitions, and went on to win the national rifle competition at Camp Perry, Ohio.

Bryce's entrance into police work was accidental and a direct side-effect of his shooting prowess. After high school he had become a State Game Ranger in Oklahoma, but in the fall he headed to the University of Oklahoma where he planned to enroll. Along the way he came across a pistol competition where the first prize was $100 in gold. The competition was in Shawnee, Oklahoma and was part of the annual Sheriff's and Peace Officers convention.

When Bryce arrived he approached the Oklahoma City Night Chief of Police, Clarence Hurt and asked if the competition was open "to anybody." Hurt eyed this young man, wondering if a boy barely out of high school could really shoot. To test him, Hurt stuck an envelope to a tree and then paced off the competition distance. From that (unspecified) range, Bryce drew and fired six fast rounds from his .38, putting all his shots into "the size of a silver dollar". Night Chief Clarence Hurt, astonished, looked at Bryce and said, "You are now a member of the Oklahoma City Police Department." The pistol team won that day and Bryce took the first prize.

From that, it appeared that he was a crack shot and a strong competitor.

What were the particulars surrounding the incident where you say that he was laughed at for a poor showing in competition?

-- Michael

Excelsior
08-22-2012, 1:06 PM
I can read just fine. Understand your point, not so much.

That's on you.

Yes, in Steel Challenge, rimfire is usually faster than centerfire. Duh. And they start low ready too, another advantage. BUT, when you look at the results, rimfire is separate from centerfire when getting the overall winner. Yes, Steel Master is best combined score, but the Steel Challenge World Champion is the fastest centerfire shooter, and does not have to shoot rimfire.

Trying to make believe as if you always understood what I was talking about to avoid further embarrassment, aye? :rolleyes:

I also don't understand what this has to do with the original question - what's the difference between a racegun and a production gun. At a national or world level competition, the smallest projectile is .355 except for Steel Challenge which has 2 .22 classes (iron and optic).

I'm sure you don't. At least you're to the point where you concede that rimfire 22 pistols can be shot faster in an SC setting than a centerfire pistol That's a start.



Hmmm...

Excelsior
08-22-2012, 1:09 PM
I know who Jelly Bryce is and have read his book, along with a number of other famous gunfighters. So let's put it on the table, you are not a soldier, not a cop, don't have a CCW permit and do not shoot competitively. That pretty much leaves you with a couple of NRA classes. So why would I take anything you say as the right experience? I take my training from guys that are top competitive shooters, are ex-military and current active duty police.

Most LEO's I know shoot horribly. Same with many CCW permit holders. FWIW, many, many people go to places like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and zillions of other places to get tactical training -- even if they do not compete.

Excelsior
08-22-2012, 1:14 PM
14.5 barrels
m4 barrel profiles
carbine gas systems
full auto (heavy) carriers/bolts
heavy triggers
non freefloated rails systems
collapsible stocks
flash hiders


Pretty much the opposite of a "race" ar 15.

I'm pretty convinced you have no idea what you are talking about outside Steel Challenge, so you should probably just stick to commenting on that.

Nice try. Not all units get the same gear. Try again. :)

HighLander51
08-22-2012, 1:16 PM
It's a virtual non-sequitur from the start.

You went to Berkeley and were an English major? am I right? Shooters don't talk like that, so your gig is to take training class after training class, then make 15 minute long videos that suck, like this one. You paid this guy $250 bucks for 4 hours to shoot like this, talk about a newbie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0EGg2mdig

HighLander51
08-22-2012, 1:18 PM
Most LEO's I know shoot horribly. Same with many CCW permit holders. FWIW, many, many people go to places like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and zillions of other places to get tactical training -- even if they do not compete.

All the cops I shoot with are USPSA A Class to Grand Master, and all the CCW guys also.

zfields
08-22-2012, 1:19 PM
Nice try. Not all units get the same gear. Try again. :)

Then you are more then likely not talking about M4's like you stated (which have many of the attributes I listed). Yet to see an M4 that isnt a carbine gas system.

Either way, unless you are talking DMR's, they are going to be far from a "race" gun.

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 1:26 PM
I... What were the particulars surrounding the incident where you say that he was laughed at for a poor showing in competition? ...
Apparently he was quite fast out of the holster ... inhumanly so ... but took quite a bit of time lining up shots beyond typical "point shooting" distances. He also took corners in a far more careful and stealthy manner than the competition shooters who poked fun at him. That's not the kind of thing that turns in great times, but it gets you home alive.

Bryce is an interesting study on a number of levels. As you noted, he was something of a prodigy, and what I would call a "freak/outlyer". Since I have criticized the notion of "fast draw gunslinging" for self-defense, it should be noted the he was one of the few police officers to ever be involved in this kind of engagement ... winning handily, BTW. He also is on record as being the only LE to ever outdraw a BG who was already pointed in on him. That's impressive as hell, but not really the kind of thing to base a program of instruction upon.

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 1:40 PM
You went to Berkeley and were an English major? am I right?
No and the number of times you've made such inaccurate assumptions is starting to add up. Even if true, what's the point you are making as regards the discussion?

Shooters don't talk like that, You're speaking for everyone now ... and again? Is there an authorized phrase book full of pithy, blustering quotes I need, in order to "talk like a shooter"? ? I'd really like to know "how shooters talk" if that actually means anything.

... so your gig is to take training class after training class, then make 15 minute long videos that suck, like this one. No, that's my hobby. My "gig" is something entirely different. What's your point other than to be insulting for (imagined) effect? Why stoop so low? Is this part of the "How Shooters Talk" phrase book or something? C'mon man, you're better than that. That was well over a year ago, BTW ... I'm much better now. ;) I'll be even better next year.

You paid this guy $250 bucks for 4 hours to shoot like this, talk about a newbie.
You have no idea how much I paid, please stop making assumptions. What difference does it make if it was $250, $500 or $1000 ... other than how loose I am with my money? Again, why the felt necessity to insult rather than have an intelligent conversation?

Here's the instructor's bio, BTW: " ... California Army National Guard with 10 ˝ years of service in a Combat Arms (SAPPER) Unit. He has deployed twice overseas in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. He spent 2009 in Afghanistan under Counter-IED performing manual minefield clearance, unexploded ordnance disposal, and clearing roads of Improvised Explosive Devices ...

... Small Arms Instructor, Combat Pistol Instructor, Combat Carbine Instructor, CQB/CQC Instructor, Explosive Ordnance & IED Defeat Instructor, Urban Breaching Instructor and a MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) Instructor ... also a California Department of Justice Certified Instructor ...

I thought those were the kind of people you thought I should be training with ... so I have no idea what your complaint is, lol.

elSquid
08-22-2012, 1:41 PM
Apparently he was quite fast out of the holster ... inhumanly so ... but took quite a bit of time lining up shots beyond typical "point shooting" distances. He also took corners in a far more careful and stealthy manner than the competition shooters who poked fun at him. That's not the kind of thing that turns in great times, but it gets you home alive.

Based on what documentation? What was the incident where he was laughed at? What competitions was he laughed at - wasn't the primary pistol competitions in the 1920s/30s/40s bullseye? Back then were bullseye competitions run in shoot houses? Were bullseye competitors laughing at him? It doesn't seem to add up.

From the officer.com article, it appeared that he was a national-level marksman ( he WON at Camp Perry! ) and his gunfights seemed to reinforce that he was both brutally fast and accurate with a gun.

-- Michael

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 1:54 PM
Based on what documentation? What was the incident where he was laughed at? What competitions was he laughed at - wasn't the primary pistol competitions in the 1920s/30s/40s bullseye? The story either is apocryphal, or it may be in one of the dozens of book on my shelf. My understanding is that it was one of the earlier Southern Combat Pistol League matches ... could be wrong about that. To be fair, it may have also been later in Bryce's life, perhaps at a point that he was "waning in his powers" so to speak.

From the officer.com article, it appeared that he was a national-level marksman ( he WON at Camp Perry! ) and his gunfights seemed to reinforce that he was both brutally fast and accurate with a gun.
... I don't doubt any of that. I also know that Bryce won some matches earlier to the incident in question, but that those were strictly fast-draw competitions. He also went on to win many competitions thereafter. My comment is not to be taken as evidence that competition is "worthless" or unimportant. I know there are those who feel that way, and I probably did at one time. It's more to the point that here was a guy with actual field experience, who had prevailed in actual gunfights, being laughed at for his poor showing in a supposedly "practical" match. Put it in the same bucket as Cooper, Hackworth and others who lost faith in matches as the end-all/be-all of shooting skill or training. I tend to think this means something, but I am still in the process of drawing my lines of demarcation. It's not about ego or defending some emotionally-committed position.

To summarize the point: "Competition Shooting" and "HD/SD/FoF Training" have partly overlapping skill sets with each other as well as with other shooting disciplines. They are not "the same thing" however, which can be readily demonstrated. This relates to the OPs original question only so much as equipment might differ between the various disciplines or sports. It can't be said that any shooting discipline "knows it all" or that any of them cannot learn something form the other. The adoption/proliferation of electronic optics is a good illustrative pattern, for instance. This depends upon the willingness to do so however, which the present thread suggests is sometimes lacking.

elSquid
08-22-2012, 3:51 PM
The story either is apocryphal, or it may be in one of the dozens of book on my shelf. My understanding is that it was one of the earlier Southern Combat Pistol League matches ... could be wrong about that. To be fair, it may have also been later in Bryce's life, perhaps at a point that he was "waning in his powers" so to speak.

Well, it would be nice to know if it actually happened. If it didn't, then perhaps there aren't any real conclusions that can be drawn from said non-existent event. :D

According to the officer article, Bryce was born in 1906, retired in 1958, and passed in 1974. It appears that Bryce was primarily responsible for the "FBI crouch" and teaching close range point shooting, which was pretty much what Cooper and the other guys were doing at the leatherslap competitions until Weaver changed the game...

-- Michael

Lead Waster
08-22-2012, 3:57 PM
Just to pour some napalm onto this thread (Hey, why not!?) wouldn't paintball be pretty good for teaching "real life-ish" fire fights? I mean, you are trying to avoid getting hit while trying to get the other guy. Maybe the equipment is not the same, but I'm guessing many of the fundamentals are the same! (Like hide behind cover, etc, etc)...

Or airsoft I suppose is the same.

zfields
08-22-2012, 4:13 PM
Just to pour some napalm onto this thread (Hey, why not!?) wouldn't paintball be pretty good for teaching "real life-ish" fire fights? I mean, you are trying to avoid getting hit while trying to get the other guy. Maybe the equipment is not the same, but I'm guessing many of the fundamentals are the same! (Like hide behind cover, etc, etc)...

Or airsoft I suppose is the same.

Both have been used in force on force training. Just matters how you treat it/train with it.

JTROKS
08-22-2012, 4:18 PM
Simunitions are used by many Dept as FoF marking device.

zfields
08-22-2012, 4:30 PM
Simunitions are used by many Dept as FoF marking device.

And it sucks to get hit in the neck by them...

foxtrotuniformlima
08-22-2012, 5:46 PM
I was hoping for some more gun porn photos in here. Thread = disappointment. Thank god & jesus I didn't read it any of it. Good lord.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/wlance_photos/buckmarkcmore1-2.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/wlance_photos/Openrightside.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/wlance_photos/STI9.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/wlance_photos/photo-9.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/wlance_photos/StolenSTI.jpg

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 6:35 PM
And it sucks to get hit in the neck by them...

It pretty much sucks to get hit anywhere by them, lol ... it's just better than having a real round be the first experience of getting hit. ;)

Brian1979
08-22-2012, 6:37 PM
This is pretty typical of the tacti-cool guys. They fall In love with some hard core trainer and become a cheerleader for them because of the money they wasted.

Fact is that you guys can do your thing an keep cheering your bromance on but at the end of the day you are slow and suck when it comes to moving and shooting. Run all the "what if" drills you want and keep paying money for that hardcore stuff and be sure to check the world after each engagement. If that makes you feel safe then it's money well spent.

I am a competition shooter with more emphasis on practicality. I choose to shoot uspsa from concealment because that's what I do daily. I have taken the tactical classes an they suck compared to what I get for $30 every Saturday in a 6 stage match. That's what makes me feel confident weekly but others need to be screamed at and pay to have some guy talk about how decorated he is. Funny thing is those trainers would suck and what we do and I know the competition guys would smoke the tactical classes because all that matters is speed and accuracy. Hiding behind walls an slicing pie around corners is educational but how fast you can shoot accurately is a skill that can't be given through talking about shooting.

By the way I shoot a stock 1911 TRP in single stack so I don't need nor want a race gun because it's not what I do daily. That seems to be the moral of the story here so buy which ever gun applies toward what you want to do.

Brian1979
08-22-2012, 6:53 PM
Zombie tactics.

All those vids of you talking about shooting are awesome. I think our opinion means a lot with all the Internet research and classes you have taken.

We can be done with this if you would just post up a video of something us competition guys are missing out on. So far it seems like time behind a computer but you could prove me wrong.

Yes I am calling you out because it rubs me the wrong way to see guys like you offer advice and challenge REAL shooters over the net. It's hard to learn from a forum setting when new comers have to read the crap people like you write. With all the cool logos under your name one would assume you know what you are talking about but in reality I hope they read past the nonsense and ask real shooters for advice.

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 8:27 PM
This is pretty typical of the tacti-cool guys. They fall In love with some hard core trainer and become a cheerleader for them because of the money they wasted.
Hmm, I am sure that is absolutely true in some cases. For my own part, I'm not really "in love" with anyone. If I were, I would not train with so many different companies.

Fact is that you guys can do your thing an keep cheering your bromance on but at the end of the day you are slow and suck when it comes to moving and shooting. Run all the "what if" drills you want and keep paying money for that hardcore stuff and be sure to check the world after each engagement. If that makes you feel safe then it's money well spent. Seems like you are just repeating a lot of veiled insults and nothing more. Why is this such a recurring pattern, rather than discussion of the issues raised?

I am a competition shooter with more emphasis on practicality. I choose to shoot uspsa from concealment because that's what I do daily. ... Makes a lot of sense.

I have taken the tactical classes an they suck ... Which ones, specifically?

... compared to what I get for $30 every Saturday in a 6 stage match. ... It seems that some competition guys are extremely penny-pinching, as I hear this comment a lot.

... That's what makes me feel confident weekly but others need to be screamed at and pay to have some guy talk about how decorated he is. Now I really want to know who you've trained with, as I've never experienced either phenomenon.

Funny thing is those trainers would suck and what we do and I know the competition guys would smoke the tactical classes because all that matters is speed and accuracy. ... Which trainers again, specifically? All of them? You're repeating the "all that matters is speed and accuracy" mantra ... how does that work when someone is already pointing a gun at your head and has you by the collar? That's happened to me for real, BTW ... so I'd like to know what awesome quick-draw technique solves that problem.

Hiding behind walls an slicing pie around corners is educational but how fast you can shoot accurately is a skill that can't be given through talking about shooting. Who said it could?

By the way I shoot a stock 1911 TRP in single stack so I don't need nor want a race gun because it's not what I do daily. That seems to be the moral of the story here so buy which ever gun applies toward what you want to do. Whatever works for you.

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 8:42 PM
... All those vids of you talking about shooting are awesome. I think our opinion means a lot with all the Internet research and classes you have taken. I don't think you really believe any of that for a minute.

We can be done with this if you would just post up a video of something us competition guys are missing out on. ... Or if you or someone else would post a video of comp shooters completely ruling in an FoF exercise. It's a two-way street. I could post up some video of comp shooters failing miserably, but that would be mean ... I don't roll that way. Nobody goes to a class to be insulted or made fun of.

I am calling you out because it rubs me the wrong way to see guys like you offer advice and challenge REAL shooters over the net. I'm not sure I so much "offer advice" as much as express opinions. A lot of it depends upon how you define "REAL shooters", as well. I suspect that really just means competition shooters.

It's hard to learn from a forum setting when new comers have to read the crap people like you write. With all the cool logos under your name one would assume you know what you are talking about but in reality I hope they read past the nonsense and ask real shooters for advice. I think people are generally capable of making their own decisions. If someone thinks my opinions are crap ... well, that's their right. Clearly you do, and you'll not get an unkind word from me. You use the phrase "real shooters" ... why not just say "competition shooters" and be done with it, since that's really what you mean in the first place?

The "cool logos" are only evidence of me doing something slightly beyond just buying a gun and running my mouth with zero training or education. It doesn't make me "special" or some fount of unquestioned wisdom, that's for sure.

Rather than simply insulting me, why not just communicate better and come up with better arguments?

Brian1979
08-22-2012, 8:43 PM
Still no video of you actually shooting. Another forum research shooter as I suspected. You seem like a great shooter to take advice from, lol. Do you at least type with your trigger finger so it gets some use?

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 9:16 PM
Still no video of you actually shooting. Another forum research shooter as I suspected. You seem like a great shooter to take advice from, lol. Do you at least type with your trigger finger so it gets some use?

More of the same. Sorry I can't get through to you. It's my fault. I need to communicate better or something. There's video of me shooting on my channel, but I don't try to post up videos of "me being awesome", because it's not about vanity, bragging rights or chest puffing.

The whole "argument by insult" thing gets old fast though. If that's all you've got we really aren't having much of a discussion.

Brian1979
08-22-2012, 9:49 PM
ok I found a vid where you used a snap cap. Look at those skills. The tap rack bang in a controlled situation. THE LIVING ROOM, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofFcmTeTbio&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6eb9vsP8s&feature=plcp

Where do I sign up? You seem like Obama to me. Talk but no action.

PS turn te gun upside down when u tap rack, lol. This is hilarious.

ZombieTactics
08-22-2012, 9:59 PM
ok I found a vid where you used a snap cap. Look at those skills. The tap rack bang in a controlled situation. THE LIVING ROOM, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofFcmTeTbio&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6eb9vsP8s&feature=plcp

Where do I sign up? You seem like Obama to me. Talk but no action.

Did you misunderstand the purpose of the videos? Seems very much so. They certainly were never presented as "evidence of awesomeness". Did I do something wrong?

Thanks for driving traffic, though ... every view helps. ;)

TempleKnight
08-22-2012, 10:05 PM
It's you that is either in denial or cannot comprehend what I am writing. Read this carefully. When I show up at an SC match there are typically 40 or so other shooters. There are several different classes -- everything from Open centerfire "race guns" to single action revolvers and everything in between. Shooters often bring more than one gun and compete in more than one class. Now focus, here it come:

If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?

In fact in many cases some very fast shooters will also shoot the match using a centerfire race gun and their aggregate time for the match will be slower than they one they recorded shooting a .22LR firearm, "period."

I didn't suggest that.
We understand you. So what? I could shoot even faster with an air soft. Better yet, I could air gun it with my finger and just call out my time. What matters in actual competition is how you finish in your classification, comprende? Check back with us when you understand the game.

Excelsior
08-23-2012, 12:13 AM
We understand you. So what? I could shoot even faster with an air soft. Better yet, I could air gun it with my finger and just call out my time. What matters in actual competition is how you finish in your classification, comprende? Check back with us when you understand the game.

Read the entire thread before you pop-off, boy. Some were suggesting that a centerfire racy gun was faster than a rimfire, "period." That ain't so as most have conceded at this point.

Others suggested that heavy recoil made the racy guns go even faster until someone corrected them.

Now take your airsoft gear and have a good time...

JTROKS
08-23-2012, 12:24 AM
Any moderators around here?

Sheperd80
08-23-2012, 5:17 AM
Im the most amazing shooter on the internet and also have a huge penis and bang lots of hot chicks and Im rich and ride motocycles at 400km/hr and i speak in km because im cool.

I win the internet.

CK_32
08-23-2012, 7:14 AM
Jesus this made it to 5 pages?


Ohhhhh I see what's going on.. Keyboard ninjas/internet experts have come out.

The zippers are down and the rulers are out.. Well micromiters :D

:popcorn:

realmswalker
08-23-2012, 8:50 AM
Originally posted by ZombieTactics.
The last time I checked, something like 90% or LE take no training beyond what they receive at the academy, and never have occasion to draw their sidearm over a 20-year career.

I would have to severely disagree with the portion underlined with bold, I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find a field officer, pretty much anywhere, who has never drawn their gun. I'm pretty sure that almost every cop in a 20+ year career has drawn their gun multiple time, and depending on the area, multiple times daily.

viet4lifeOC
08-23-2012, 9:02 AM
Agreed.

Not even understanding why people are debating.

Both tactical classes and competition has it's short comings. Is that a revelation?

I've been told that when a gun is pointed at you....you get tunnel vision...you suddenly only see the barrel of a gun. A 22 looks like a cannon. Not sure if this is true or not because I've never been in that situation. I doubt anyone who's take a tactical class or a competitive shooter ever felt that "tunnel vision" which says a lot.

Euphoria526
08-23-2012, 9:13 AM
Jesus this made it to 5 pages?


Ohhhhh I see what's going on.. Keyboard ninjas/internet experts have come out.

The zippers are down and the rulers are out.. Well micromiters :D

:popcorn:

Agreed.
I mean c'mon we ALL know the real differences.
Race gun- built from the ground up for competition.
Non race gun- sd/hd/rang toy/safe queen.


Ok you can close this wasted thread now. :D

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 9:47 AM
...
Both tactical classes and competition has it's short comings. Is that a revelation? ...

It shouldn't be. For some it's an affront to their manliness or dignity or something ... not really sure what the close-mindedness is all about. For my part, I recognize that both have value. My failure to participate in some kind of competition represents a big deficit in becoming a more well-rounded shooter. I can fix that, and will.

There are overlaps of technique in some areas, and I think that causes some to believe that they are "the same thing". It doesn't take much thought to realize otherwise, but some are not open to the question from the start. ... That general statement sends some people into a tiz for reasons which are a mystery to me. If the pattern follows, someone will come along and start leveling insults at me now ... as though insults are a logical argument or something.

I've been told that when a gun is pointed at you....you get tunnel vision...you suddenly only see the barrel of a gun. A 22 looks like a cannon. Not sure if this is true or not because I've never been in that situation. I doubt anyone who's take a tactical class or a competitive shooter ever felt that "tunnel vision" which says a lot. I've had guns pointed at me on 2 occasions. They're all scary as hell. You have a lot more things on your mind than the caliber of the gun.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 10:13 AM
I would have to severely disagree with the portion underlined with bold, I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find a field officer, pretty much anywhere, who has never drawn their gun. I'm pretty sure that almost every cop in a 20+ year career has drawn their gun multiple time, and depending on the area, multiple times daily.

Thanks for forcing me to be more careful. You are probably right ... "drawing" is different than "firing", and I should have said "fire" or "discharge". Most LE probably do draw their weapon.

Regarding discharging a firearm ... depends on how you look at the stats, and how carefully. The raw numbers can fool you if you aren't careful. If you look at the marriage/divorce stats for instance it looks like "most people get divorced" because the numbers show that over half of the marriages end in divorce. Actually, most people get married and stay married, but a small number of people get married/divorced over-n-over ... which skews the stats and gives a false impression.

The breakdown is similar as regards LE gun training/use. "Law Enforcement" encompasses a very large group of people. There are a small subset who train heavily and fire their guns many times. The vast majority do not.

Consider a sample group of 100 officers where 90 of them never train and never fire their guns in the line of duty. The other 10 train hard and fire their guns at 5 times a year. Over a twenty year period that averages out to 10 times per officer ... which would make it seem like they ALL fired their guns regularly. That's not really the reality of it though.

JaeOne3345
08-23-2012, 12:00 PM
For Zombie Tactics, I guess you missed this...

Serious question. Who do you train with that actually uses/does/trains force on force?

Many "tactical" classes I see (yes, even in person) are nothing more than people on a firing line shooting at a static target, with some self proclaimed combat expert just shouting out commands. I do not find this realistic at all, especially for people who have more than mediocre weapon handling skills. Paying 300-400 bucks for a class to shoot on a line with a bunch of other people all under the same commands at the same damn time seems like a total waste of money.

I'd be interested in finding out where these FoF classes are. Are they using airsoft?

I just don't see how practicing yelling stop at a static paper target and then turning around to "check your world" is realistic and going to prepare you for anything, (Heaven forbid that ever happens).

I would not mind taking classes that actually use FoF. My roommate is actually LEO and his department is big on training but I know they also stress the importance of using simulators and airsoft.

joelogic
08-23-2012, 12:22 PM
I just don't see how practicing yelling stop at a static paper target and then turning around to "check your world" is realistic and going to prepare you for anything, (Heaven forbid that ever happens).

This seems to have just become a back and forth discussion.

Practicing is what you make of it. Yelling, "Stop" at a paper target seems silly but it preps the mind. Giving verbal commands to get for witnesses to hear.

Same with checking your 6. When I watch a line of people, they just turn their neck out of habit and don't notice anything when is fine for just trying to break tunnel vision. During one set of drills the instructor yelled out, "How many orange buckets are behind us?" No one knew and this clearly demonstrated that when we checked our 6 we didn't actually look at anything. So now I really focus on remembering what I saw. 4 people standing around in hoodies, 2 white trucks, a broken street light, just to give an example.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 12:28 PM
I see it as a progression.

I get your point. I've been in classes where it's nothing but "people on a firing line shooting at a static target" . They are really geared towards learning basic manipulations and shooting techniques. I don't see the point of anyone who has the basic mechanics down pat taking such classes. That would be a waste of time and money for anyone in that position, which probably includes most comp shooters. Paying some dear coin so that you can sit through someone showing you "here's how to grip a pistol" ... I can see that being close to a form of torture for some, lol.

A step up from that usually involves classes with a lot of varied drills which (in some cases anyway) approximate simple competition stages. Often these entail some kind of ambiguous "problem" to be solved ... like ID-ing a target which isn't exactly 100% well identified. Variations of common drills like the Tueller Drill, Bill Drill, Hackathorn's "snake" drill, the F.A.S.T. drill, etc. are often included, although the variations can be quite creative. Working movement, often 180 or (depending upon how you look at it) 360 degrees ... things which would never be allowed in competition ... happen in some of these kinds of classes. The "advanced" Tactical Response classes include some very physically demanding exercises based upon the idea that you are in a fight, not just a shooting exercise. If you can set up that kind of thing yourself and make it happen, maybe with a small "training group" ... that's a good way to save cash (I may have an announcement later in the year along these lines).

FoF exercises vary widely. Some are simply integrated into other "advanced classes". The better ones I know of ... the kind of thing SouthNarc, Tactical Response and Suarez (just for example) have available, are really diabolical. You have no idea what is about to happen, whether or not its even a true "gun defense" situation or what exactly. Then point of these exercises is for you to survive, not necessarily to shoot X number of targets in some time period. It's not uncommon for "the solution" to be just doing nothing at all, running away or locking the door, lol. Valley Defense integrates some elements like this into their Close Quarters Engagement class. This is nothing at all like competition, and works your ability to adapt under pressure and ambiguity. Sadly, there isn't much in the Sacto area along these lines.

JaeOne3345
08-23-2012, 12:41 PM
I personally would just find it odd if my basketball coach told me I was gonna practice defense against a mannequin that didn't move.

Just doesn't seem to go along with the "train the way you fight" mantra that many tactical people spit out repeatedly.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 12:46 PM
I personally would just find it odd if my basketball coach told me I was gonna practice defense against a mannequin that didn't move.

Just doesn't seem to go along with the "train the way you fight" mantra that many tactical people spit out repeatedly.

Again, I get your point. If that's all anyone does - especially over-n-over ad nauseum ... that's a sort of "training to fail".

A free-throw or slam-dunk competition is not a basketball game. Anything which does not involve active, thinking opposition is not training for "the real thing". The problem with guns is that there is no way to have active opposition in a 100% realistic fashion. Competition certainly works to hone certain basic shooting mechanics, and FoF is about as close as you can get safely.

JaeOne3345
08-23-2012, 1:03 PM
This seems to have just become a back and forth discussion.

Practicing is what you make of it. Yelling, "Stop" at a paper target seems silly but it preps the mind. Giving verbal commands to get for witnesses to hear.

Same with checking your 6. When I watch a line of people, they just turn their neck out of habit and don't notice anything when is fine for just trying to break tunnel vision. During one set of drills the instructor yelled out, "How many orange buckets are behind us?" No one knew and this clearly demonstrated that when we checked our 6 we didn't actually look at anything. So now I really focus on remembering what I saw. 4 people standing around in hoodies, 2 white trucks, a broken street light, just to give an example.

And wouldn't all of that (checking your six, yelling, etc) be better when included in a program that actually has your threat respond back in some way shape or fashion?

That's all I am saying. Yea, I see why they teach it but I am interested in classes who use active defense/offense techniques, which is what the real world will encompass.

It's akin to learning a martial art. You can learn technique on a static bag all day everyday. But sparring is gonna show you how to REALLY put those techniques to use.

My old Brazilian Jiu Jitsu coach used to show us to the movements first on a bag lying on the ground. You could be extremely well at working that dead bag, but things change when you have to spar with a moving/resisting opponent. That's where you really learn how to roll on the mat. I don't see how firearms would be any different.

JaeOne3345
08-23-2012, 1:06 PM
FoF exercises vary widely. Some are simply integrated into other "advanced classes". The better ones I know of ... the kind of thing SouthNarc, Tactical Response and Suarez (just for example) have available, are really diabolical. You have no idea what is about to happen, whether or not its even a true "gun defense" situation or what exactly. Then point of these exercises is for you to survive, not necessarily to shoot X number of targets in some time period. It's not uncommon for "the solution" to be just doing nothing at all, running away or locking the door, lol. Valley Defense integrates some elements like this into their Close Quarters Engagement class. This is nothing at all like competition, and works your ability to adapt under pressure and ambiguity. Sadly, there isn't much in the Sacto area along these lines.

That's what I am talking about! That seems 10x more beneficial. :hurray:

joelogic
08-23-2012, 1:07 PM
Logistically its difficult to carry training out to this level. FOF will never be live fire and people get into bad mindsets even when practicing FOF with airsoft and paintball.

Train the way you fight is applied in a different manner than just FOF. It means practice with your carry gun/holster. Practice in the rain/heat/snow. Grab your bob from your trunk and run a scenario.

I personally would just find it odd if my basketball coach told me I was gonna practice defense against a mannequin that didn't move.

Just doesn't seem to go along with the "train the way you fight" mantra that many tactical people spit out repeatedly.

joelogic
08-23-2012, 1:11 PM
And wouldn't all of that (checking your six, yelling, etc) be better when included in a program that actually has your threat respond back in some way shape or fashion?


If you are LE, then maybe. If you are a civilian and your life is in danger, draw and shoot.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 1:39 PM
Logistically its difficult to carry training out to this level. Absolutely true.

FOF will never be live fire ...
Not so sure I agree. The General Dynamics and Glock sim guns use an actual centerfire cartridge. Both are capable of inflicting serious wounds and even killing someone who is not properly "armored". Many of the 11mm and larger airsoft marker guns pull double duty as "less lethal" tools for launching rubber bullets and/or plastic marbles.

... and people get into bad mindsets even when practicing FOF with airsoft and paintball. This can be true, which is why just getting together and blazing away at each other is not necessarily "training" per se.

Train the way you fight is applied in a different manner than just FOF. It means practice with your carry gun/holster. Practice in the rain/heat/snow. Grab your bob from your trunk and run a scenario. Good advice. I am personally perplexed when I see someone pay $ for a self-defense class (or comp I suppose), end out the day, and then holster up some completely different gun/holster for CCW. Huh?

Lead Waster
08-23-2012, 2:40 PM
This seems to have just become a back and forth discussion.

Practicing is what you make of it. Yelling, "Stop" at a paper target seems silly but it preps the mind. Giving verbal commands to get for witnesses to hear.

Same with checking your 6. When I watch a line of people, they just turn their neck out of habit and don't notice anything when is fine for just trying to break tunnel vision. During one set of drills the instructor yelled out, "How many orange buckets are behind us?" No one knew and this clearly demonstrated that when we checked our 6 we didn't actually look at anything. So now I really focus on remembering what I saw. 4 people standing around in hoodies, 2 white trucks, a broken street light, just to give an example.

Interesting, so the head shake is for breaking tunnel vision. Good to know!

With the orange bucket thing that's not fair because you were "checking your six" for PEOPLE. Your brain automatically discounted the buckets as non-threats.

Even not under threat, but under stress, I can see how tunnel vision would work. I shot a match where I had to knock over some steel things, then some plates. I heard the "ping!" of the steel poppers, but one didn't fall down. After I shot the plates, I said I was done. Even though I was staring at an un-fallen metal popper. The RO asked me if I wanted to ask for a calibration, I had no idea what he was talking about since I didn't even notice the thing right in front of me ... because I was so focussed on something else!

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 3:04 PM
Interesting, so the head shake is for breaking tunnel vision. Good to know!
Many instructors will tell you that this is just to get you used to breaking tunnel vision, but that you should also get in the habit of looking ALL around you while moving to cover and getting distance. You really can't have 20 people doing that on a line, but the principle is what is important. Gordon Gray said something good in a recent class: "Don't just twist your neck ... NOTICE something!" ... the idea being - of course - that the movement is not really the thing you're ingraining, but the practice of maintaining awareness.

With the orange bucket thing that's not fair because you were "checking your six" for PEOPLE. Your brain automatically discounted the buckets as non-threats. But what if they were EEEEEVIL buckets?!?

Even not under threat, but under stress, I can see how tunnel vision would work. I shot a match where I had to knock over some steel things, then some plates. I heard the "ping!" of the steel poppers, but one didn't fall down. After I shot the plates, I said I was done. Even though I was staring at an un-fallen metal popper. The RO asked me if I wanted to ask for a calibration, I had no idea what he was talking about since I didn't even notice the thing right in front of me ... because I was so focussed on something else! Thanks for letting us in on that experience. Many would never admit to something like that out of misplaced pride.

Brian1979
08-23-2012, 5:01 PM
More research, statistics, and talk. Terrific Zombietactics.

FYI your are in conversation with some darn good REAL shooters.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2012, 5:53 PM
More research, statistics, and talk. Terrific Zombietactics.

FYI your are in conversation with some darn good REAL shooters.

I can tell that the phrase "REAL shooters" means a lot you. In the spirit of fun, I'll help you out:

REEEEAAAALLL Shooterszzzzzzz!

All we need now are explosions, awesome music and a deep-voice guy to scream it.

Euphoria526
08-23-2012, 6:05 PM
And on to page 6 with this shannaniganary.

elSquid
08-23-2012, 6:29 PM
And on to page 6 with this shannaniganary.

Only page 4 for me. UserCP->Options->50 Posts per page.

;)

-- Michael

TempleKnight
08-23-2012, 6:41 PM
Any moderators around here?

It's cool. I let keyboard commando troll get under my skin, but I'm done.

hkdad
08-24-2012, 8:48 AM
AND THIS THREAD HAS BEEN........



:threadjacked::threadjacked::threadjacked:

BY...


:donatello::ninja::troll:

Supsup
09-06-2012, 2:05 AM
Raceguns are built for competition and wouldn't really be practical for self defense purposes.

Only one way to find out. Break-in to a racegun owners house, see what happens.