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vector16
08-15-2012, 7:18 PM
I am going to be buying a new Glock in the next week. I am going to get either a 20 or a 21. I know that .45 is readily available anywhere. Not so sure about 10mm. I do need a gun for SD but I do have a .40 S&W and a G17 so the SD is just one more thing. I need a round that could do some dammage to a charging preditor like a mt. lion or a bear if the need should ever arise. I know a this would just be for that extreem circumstance. I will also have a 30-06 when I am hunting out in ther woods. So would a .45 or a .45+p do the trick. HP or FMJ? The 10mm would probably do a better job but the ammo is more exoensive and I have heard its getting hard to find. Is this the case? I would really like to get the .45 so don't get me wrong. I have also heard and read that there are realibility issues with the 10mm, more so than the good old .45 AP. I have had .45's in ther past but they were for SD and I was not taking into acct that I might have to use it on a larger animal. Any thoughts?

Neptune
08-15-2012, 7:34 PM
.45 ammo is cheaper and a solid round, but if I were spending my time hanging around mountain lions, I'd carry the 10mm. If I already owned a .45, I'd likely go with the 10mm. If I didn't own a piece, I'd buy the .45.



__

510GUY
08-15-2012, 7:55 PM
Get the 10 milli and change barrels if you want to go plinking and back to 10 for home defence or backpacking in the woods

Steve-O
08-15-2012, 8:18 PM
I love the 10mm, but it is a lifestyle. If you don't like walking into some gunshops and having clerks laugh when you ask to see their selection of 10mm, get the .45. If you don't like explaining to the uninitiated what a 10mm is, get the .45. If you don't like paying fifty cents a round, get the .45. It sounds like a .45 would do everything you need it to.

I really and truly appreciate what the 10mm is and love having one as my primary CCW. I am even more excited now that I am dipping my toe into the world of reloading, so I can shoot my 10 even more.

toby
08-15-2012, 8:23 PM
If you ever get attacked by a Lion and are able to get a shot off, please let us know how it worked out for ya......:2guns:

hermosabeach
08-15-2012, 8:25 PM
Many of the 10mm loads are about the same as .40 S&W

Some is loaded "hot" but when i looked at the 10MM it seemed that many target loads are almost the same as .40

You can get the 200 grain bullet in 10mm, but I do not know if 20 grains really makes that much difference

If you want a monster, then take a peek at the .460 Rowland

It is a longer case than the .45 ACP and they sell a barrel to convert several different types of .45ACP guns to take the round

It is almost the same power as a 44 mag

But you need to buy ammo ahead of time... It is a saami round but it is not widely used

vector16
08-15-2012, 8:40 PM
If you ever get attacked by a Lion and are able to get a shot off, please let us know how it worked out for ya......:2guns:

Well it would not be the ideal thing to have happen but I think that you would have more luck with a gun than a knifeor even bare handed. I think I would be more concerned with a mama bear than the cougar. The cougar will attack from behing and woun't give you any warning. I am not an ideal target for a cougar unless I am tying my shoe. I'm 6.5' tall.
Ideally I would like to get a D.E. 50 cal. but I just can't really see a purpose for having one of those on my hip. Nor can I see myself spending $2 - $4 a round. I would have to admit that it would make a great zombie gun though.
If the 45 will do what I need it to be able to do than that is what I am going to get.
In response to Steve-o I bet its no worse than waling into a GS in CA anywhere and asking them for shells for a 8ga. or even a 4 ga. Most gun dealer will try and agrue that they do not exist, esspecially Bass Pro's. I had to argue with the guy last Sat. for almost 30 min. and then finally just left.

vector16
08-15-2012, 8:45 PM
not getting a .460 ever. I do not need a round to travel that fast. I am not hunting elephant. If you shat a deer with that the dear would not be good for anything besides fish bait. The .460 is too much power for such a small round. The 50 S&W is a large round too but is slower moving. The You would be hard preesed to fid that round for a Semi auto anyway.

sarge1572
08-15-2012, 8:46 PM
My son does a lot of backpacking and we looked hi and low for the right "backpacking gun" for him. Talked to lots of hunters, several rangers (which turned out to be our best source of information) and they told us most handgun rounds aren't very effective against larger prey. The rangers we talked to said anything with less performance than a 44 magnum was inviting trouble. If your only choices are the 45 and the 10MM, I'd go with the 10MM and hardball rounds. The rangers said penetration was the deciding factor in putting a larger animal down, so hollow points might be dandy against a human target, but with a big cat or a bear...................... not so much.

Excelsior
08-15-2012, 8:47 PM
Get a 9mm that you'll be able to shoot 2x as much as a .45 and 4x as much as a 10mm. You'll become an extremely proficient shot and you can load it with Cor-Bon DPX when carrying it for self-defense.

robcoe
08-15-2012, 8:49 PM
not getting a .460 ever. I do not need a round to travel that fast. I am not hunting elephant. If you shat a deer with that the dear would not be good for anything besides fish bait. The .460 is too much power for such a small round. The 50 S&W is a large round too but is slower moving. The You would be hard preesed to fid that round for a Semi auto anyway.

If I shat a deer the last thing on my mind would be what to do with it.

the .460 rowland is actually a nice round, roughly matches a low end .44 magum in a 1911 pattern gun. And .44 magnum(at least through a rifle) is a serviceable hunting round.

TripleThreat
08-15-2012, 8:50 PM
I've seen D.E. 50 cal bullets on sale online for only $20 per 20 round box (I think it was cheaper than dirt). I recently picked up a D.E. as I want to purchase one, I was SHOCKED at how heavy that gun is, felt like it was 8lbs, not sure I could carry that on me, it would really be a bear (pun intended) to carry around.

If you are comfortable carrying a DE on your hip, I'd go for it, wait for rounds to go on sale and but them in bulk. Plus having a D.E. is a cool toy to own.

Good luck with whatever you get,

PS. Someone once told me, if you have to shoot a bear with a 357 magnum pistol, the first 5 rounds are for the bear......

vector16
08-15-2012, 8:50 PM
My son does a lot of backpacking and we looked hi and low for the right "backpacking gun" for him. Talked to lots of hunters, several rangers (which turned out to be our best source of information) and they told us most handgun rounds aren't very effective against larger prey. The rangers we talked to said anything with less performance than a 44 magnum was inviting trouble. If your only choices are the 45 and the 10MM, I'd go with the 10MM and hardball rounds. The rangers said penetration, or lack of, was the deciding factor in putting a larger animal down, so hollow points might be dandy against a human target, but with a big cat or a bear...................... not so much.

That was my main concern was the penetration. Ypu dont think a .45 FMJ would be able penitrate that far? If only we could get AP rounds in CA. that would save us so much time and $.

vector16
08-15-2012, 8:55 PM
I've seen D.E. 50 cal bullets on sale online for only $20 per 20 round box (I think it was cheaper than dirt). I recently picked up a D.E. as I want to purchase one, I was SHOCKED at how heavy that gun is, felt like it was 8lbs, not sure I could carry that on me, it would really be a bear (pun intended) to carry around.

If you are comfortable carrying a DE on your hip, I'd go for it, wait for rounds to go on sale and but them in bulk. Plus having a D.E. is a cool toy to own.

Good luck with whatever you get,

PS. Someone once told me, if you have to shoot a bear with a 357 magnum pistol, the first 5 rounds are for the bear......

If you but a D.E. new, you will never get more than 1/2 what you paid for it if you ever sell it. you always need to where a hat when you fire one. The shells come straight back and hit you in the forhed EVERY time.

TripleThreat
08-15-2012, 8:55 PM
If one were to shoot an attacking bear with a handgun (50 ca, 10mm, 45 etc), would it be best to go for center mass shots or head shots or another shot all together?

Same question with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs?

Thanks!

Bobby Hated
08-15-2012, 8:56 PM
.45 ACP:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

10mm:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/10mm.htm

not a huge diffference between the two in terms of the range of FPS and penetration scores

vector16
08-15-2012, 8:57 PM
If one were to shoot an attacking bear with a handgun (50 ca, 10mm, 45 etc), would it be best to go for center mass shots or head shots or another shot all together?

Same question with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs?

Thanks!

if you have a charging mama bear you will only get head shots or back of the throat shots.

TripleThreat
08-15-2012, 9:00 PM
If you but a D.E. new, you will never get more than 1/2 what you paid for it if you ever sell it.... The shells come straight back and hit you in the forhed EVERY time.

New D.E. are going for $1,500, last 3 I've seen for sale on this site where in that same range as new (give or take $100).

Taking casings to the forehed, does not sound so pleasant. Is that true of all D.E. calibers? I'd like to get one as the final gun of my collection.

Thanks!

sarge1572
08-15-2012, 9:05 PM
That was my main concern was the penetration. Ypu dont think a .45 FMJ would be able penitrate that far? If only we could get AP rounds in CA. that would save us so much time and $.

Based on our research and the information we got from several forest rangers we didn't think the 45 would do the trick. Someone mentioned the 460, but you're into a whole new set of issues......... A hot 10MM hardball round would give you some significant penetration. A couple of reasons my son ruled the 10 out was the cost, pretty pricey, although it only needs to work once to pay for itself, weight, and the fact that it was an auto. The last thing you want is a malfunction of any kind. If you're lucky you'll only have to shoot it at the range, but you'll have to lug it around.

If you have the time I'd compare the performance of whatever you're considering against a 4" 44 magnum revolver. An animal that has been shot doesn't react the same way a person does, so you need to put them down as quickly and effectively as possible. (And yes, I'm sorry to say I've shot both...........)

Nyanman
08-15-2012, 9:06 PM
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

vector16
08-15-2012, 9:08 PM
New D.E. are going for $1,500, last 3 I've seen for sale on this site where in that same range as new (give or take $100).

Taking casings to the forward, does not sound so pleasant. Is that true of all the calibers? I'd like to get one as the final gun of my collection.

Thanks!

Unforunetly yes its true . The entire rear of the gun slides bak to expose the whole rear of the barrel . the shells fly a little up a straight back. They are not the greatest thing to shoot except on a range and that after a few roumnds is not fun anymore. The higher cal. rounds like the .44 and .50 and cut into your forehead and make you bleed. You need to where a baseball cap when shooting them. Keep the bill just abouve the rear site so the shell dont ping under the cap. If you get a DE 50 it will be a Zombie gu n and you will only use it for that purpose.

SnWnMe
08-15-2012, 9:11 PM
.45 ACP:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

10mm:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/10mm.htm

Those look like the FBI 10mm loads. They were for uh.. small framed agents who can't handle the recoil.

Back to OP: If you get a 10mm, be ready to handload so you can practice on the cheap. Accurate follow up shots out of a 10mm take a little more work than 45 to nail down. The felt recoil to me is somewhere between 45 and 357. Not bad but you gotta get used to it.

vector16
08-15-2012, 9:16 PM
the .357 mag recoil is nothing. The recoil of a .45 is not much either. I thought the comparison was going to be. between a 45 and a .44 mag. If it between a .357 and a 45 that should be easy going. I can rapid fire a GP100 with .357 mag rounds and stay on target easily.

Oceanbob
08-15-2012, 9:22 PM
A 10MM round has more speed at 100 yards than a .45 has at the muzzle.

My opinion is if you RELOAD then go for a Glock 20SF or Glock 29 and have a .40 barrel to shoot .40 out of when you want to save a little money and get some trigger time.

If you don't reload you can still buy wally world .40 to run your Glock 20 platform; you will just have to buy some solid hardcast from Buffalo bore or Double tap for stomping around the woods. (for 10MM factory hot stuff)

You will be buying most your hot ammo in 10MM off the internet.

Expect problems in most Gun Stores when asking about 10MM. Most of these young (20s) sales clerks have never heard of 10MM. Kinda funny sometimes.

The GLOCK 20 and 29 (either normal or short frame) are the most versatile weapons around. They will run .40, .357SIG, 9X25 with just a barrel change.

I like the .40 round; its not snappy at all in the large 20/21 series frames. The wider grip really soaks up the recoil and it's nice to use the same magazines for all those calibers.

Be safe.

Neptune
08-15-2012, 9:46 PM
If you ever get attacked by a Lion and are able to get a shot off, please let us know how it worked out for ya......:2guns:

The three run ins I've had with mountain lions gave me plenty of time to pull off a shot, but I didn't have a gun on me. The first was when one jumped down onto the road to confront me. If I'd had a gun, I would have shot it, I was barely able to back away and get into a vehicle.

The other two occasions caused a face off with the lions turning and running off. That's proof of three occasions where I had the opportunity, but not the ability. I consider myself lucky to have gotten away on the occasion where the lion wasn't going to run away.

If it happened again, the challenging lion would be toast. The other two situations didn't warrant shooting the lions since they ran off after a brief standoff. The first one was actively hunting me. The 10mm would have been sufficient to get the job done. I love animals and wouldn't ever want to bring harm to a mountain lion, but I'm not on the menu, thanks.




__

gun toting monkeyboy
08-15-2012, 9:58 PM
Guys, lions are very thin-skinned. A .38 special should be more than enough for them. As for bears, where? They are pretty thin on the ground for the most part. And if you are confronted with one of the black bears we have around here, either round will do. It comes down to a matter of choice as several others have pointed out. .45 is much easier to come by. 10mm is they type of round that only gun people know about. Gun nuts are the only ones likely to use it. That said, I would love to get one someday. But if all you are looking for is a hiking gun, take your pick. A .357 revolver would likely do just as well though.

Oceanbob
08-15-2012, 10:01 PM
Why 10MM?

http://www.weaponsrelated.com/2010/07/why-10mm.html

The 10MM Auto Pistol (Glock)

http://www.gunblast.com/10mm.htm


10MM stats

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T 0E&hl=en#gid=0

hermosabeach
08-15-2012, 10:13 PM
http://460rowland.com/about/

1550 FPS with an 185 grain projectile
10+1 in ca
21 rounds out of ca
From your glock 21 with a different barrel and recoil spring

AJD
08-15-2012, 10:25 PM
Guys, lions are very thin-skinned. A .38 special should be more than enough for them. As for bears, where? They are pretty thin on the ground for the most part. And if you are confronted with one of the black bears we have around here, either round will do. It comes down to a matter of choice as several others have pointed out. .45 is much easier to come by. 10mm is they type of round that only gun people know about. Gun nuts are the only ones likely to use it. That said, I would love to get one someday. But if all you are looking for is a hiking gun, take your pick. A .357 revolver would likely do just as well though.

I agree with this if you're talking about bears or lions around here.

With respect to the biggest bears in Alaska or other parts, then 10MM would be marginal at best. 10MM is incredibly overrated by a lot of people as a defense round against large, dangerous animals. Most are preoccupied with energy which does nothing to quantify effectiveness. You're going to want to use hard cast bullets and not a hollowpoints to get maximum penetration on these animals. 10mm is powerful enough for extra penetration with hardcast bullets, but you're just putting a .40" diameter hole. A .40 caliber hole through a human isn't very effective and handguns regardless of bullet expansion are considered poor stoppers, so I don't know why people think 10mm would be anything but poor against a big bear.

m98
08-15-2012, 11:21 PM
not getting a .460 ever. I do not need a round to travel that fast. I am not hunting elephant. If you shat a deer with that the dear would not be good for anything besides fish bait. The .460 is too much power for such a small round. The 50 S&W is a large round too but is slower moving. The You would be hard preesed to fid that round for a Semi auto anyway.

460 too much power yet u want a 10mm loaded hot BUT want max penetration??? Sounds to me that u can make up ur mind or really want the 10 but just wanna reassure ur decision by posting a thread for us to tell you to do so. And by the way, 45 is marginal only if u roll ur own by loading it hot loaded with some hardcast swc or keith boolits.

Deadbolt
08-15-2012, 11:30 PM
If you ever get attacked by a Lion and are able to get a shot off, please let us know how it worked out for ya......:2guns:

lol this, unfortunately :43:

mbt
08-15-2012, 11:32 PM
Why don't u just wear armor? I mean u have a 30-06. Why u need a HG for the woods?

Or buy a flare gun.

m98
08-16-2012, 12:26 AM
Why don't u just wear armor? I mean u have a 30-06. Why u need a HG for the woods?

Or buy a flare gun.


Lol......Flare launcher mounted to the bottom
Of the 06' rifle via custom 1913 rail.

InGrAM
08-16-2012, 2:12 AM
.45

You can shoot it a lot more than 10mm. If you reload it you can find .45 brass at every gun range. No one seems to pick up their spent, once fired .45 brass :confused:. I have never seen spent 10mm brass on the ground at a range before, along with 38 super. Most people pick it up and reload it for obvious reasons.

If you really want a 10mm then buy one, it is definitely the more powerful of the two rounds. But which one are you going to shoot more and be more proficient with? I would say the .45

1000stars
08-16-2012, 2:27 AM
.45 is the benchmark for self defense pistol.
10mm is fun to shoot but cost more.
Doesn't matter which one you pick, you will buy the one you did not pick next.

toby
08-16-2012, 5:58 AM
The three run ins I've had with mountain lions gave me plenty of time to pull off a shot, but I didn't have a gun on me. The first was when one jumped down onto the road to confront me. If I'd had a gun, I would have shot it, I was barely able to back away and get into a vehicle.

The other two occasions caused a face off with the lions turning and running off. That's proof of three occasions where I had the opportunity, but not the ability. I consider myself lucky to have gotten away on the occasion where the lion wasn't going to run away.

If it happened again, the challenging lion would be toast. The other two situations didn't warrant shooting the lions since they ran off after a brief standoff. The first one was actively hunting me. The 10mm would have been sufficient to get the job done. I love animals and wouldn't ever want to bring harm to a mountain lion, but I'm not on the menu, thanks.




__

Run ins are not attacks, I too have had numerous run ins, sightings, the difference is you most likely will never see the attack until it happens, ps you can not shoot a Lion just because you came within shooting distance.

opie4386
08-16-2012, 7:40 AM
The 460 rowland would be my best choice

Please dont confuse it with the grizzly stopping .460 smith&wesson

vector16
08-16-2012, 8:15 AM
thax for all the input. I just looked at BPS and found they only have the 10mm in Rem. UMC for a box of 50 its $34.

My next question is on the 45+p. How does the Glock 21 stand up to it? I have a G17 which I had mentioned before. It stands up fine top the +p rounds. I am a little concerned withthe +p in .45ap with the glock. Is the Glock 21 able to stand up to the extra power?

Decoligny
08-16-2012, 9:18 AM
Well it would not be the ideal thing to have happen but I think that you would have more luck with a gun than a knifeor even bare handed. I think I would be more concerned with a mama bear than the cougar. The cougar will attack from behing and woun't give you any warning. I am not an ideal target for a cougar unless I am tying my shoe. I'm 6.5' tall.
Ideally I would like to get a D.E. 50 cal. but I just can't really see a purpose for having one of those on my hip. Nor can I see myself spending $2 - $4 a round. I would have to admit that it would make a great zombie gun though.
If the 45 will do what I need it to be able to do than that is what I am going to get.
In response to Steve-o I bet its no worse than waling into a GS in CA anywhere and asking them for shells for a 8ga. or even a 4 ga. Most gun dealer will try and agrue that they do not exist, esspecially Bass Pro's. I had to argue with the guy last Sat. for almost 30 min. and then finally just left.

Not a problem.

101st Airborne and the Mountain Lion share the motto "Death from Above".

http://venturebeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/flickr-mountain-lion.jpg?w=558&h=9999&crop=0

polo.45
08-16-2012, 9:24 AM
If you getting a .45 and 10mm caliber... Gotta be a 1911. :D

henmar77
08-16-2012, 9:24 AM
Many of the 10mm loads are about the same as .40 S&W

Some is loaded "hot" but when i looked at the 10MM it seemed that many target loads are almost the same as .40

You can get the 200 grain bullet in 10mm, but I do not know if 20 grains really makes that much difference

If you want a monster, then take a peek at the .460 Rowland

It is a longer case than the .45 ACP and they sell a barrel to convert several different types of .45ACP guns to take the round

It is almost the same power as a 44 mag

But you need to buy ammo ahead of time... It is a saami round but it is not widely used

+1 get the 45 and a 460 conversion if you want 44mag power. Then when you run out of money shooting both. You can buy a 22lr conversion. Now you have 3 guns in one!!

SnWnMe
08-16-2012, 9:48 AM
If you getting a .45 and 10mm caliber... Gotta be a 1911. :D


Preach it Bruther! Educate these Tactical Tupperware heathen!

hasserl
08-16-2012, 4:45 PM
If one were to shoot an attacking bear with a handgun (50 ca, 10mm, 45 etc), would it be best to go for center mass shots or head shots or another shot all together?

Same question with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs?

Thanks!

if you have a charging mama bear you will only get head shots or back of the throat shots.

An open mouth shot is ideal. Unlike a human target, you don't want to aim for center mass. Bears have a slow heart rate, and you may inflict a terminal shot, but a charging bear will be able to complete the charge before he bleeds out. What you need to do is sever the spinal cord, that will stop it instantly. Aiming right at the back of the throat is probably your best option, and empty the gun, don't leave any rounds unspent.

If I was arming myself for this I'd go with a 44mag, not an auto. If it had to be auto I'd go with SIG 357.

TripleThreat
08-16-2012, 5:51 PM
Appreciate the reply, I didn't know a Sig 357 was that potent?

paul0660
08-16-2012, 6:01 PM
Appreciate the reply, I didn't know a Sig 357 was that potent?

It isn't.

Someday I will get a 10mm hunting sidearm and call it good. It will be a handgun, not a Glock.

Sunday
08-16-2012, 6:08 PM
If you ever get attacked by a Lion and are able to get a shot off, please let us know how it worked out for ya......:2guns:Moutain lions are soft game. E.Z. to kill is they do not get the jump on you.

mif_slim
08-16-2012, 6:10 PM
Why a 40cal vs a 45 when you can get a 50ae? Haha.

stitchnicklas
08-16-2012, 7:06 PM
i plan on making the g20 my next buy and getting a 40s&w barrel for it.

i want the power and versatility of the gun

misterjake
08-16-2012, 7:14 PM
A guy not too long ago killed a charging grizzly bear with a .45 acp.

.45 is plenty. Caliber is moot if you cannot hit a critical area.

What is important is biggest caliber you can aim with and hit your target as fast as possible.

m98
08-16-2012, 11:26 PM
Appreciate the reply, I didn't know a Sig 357 was that potent?


357 sig will never be able to touch 10mm or 45. A fast 125gr hp vs a heavy cast 10mm or 45. 357sig is for 2legg vermin and upclose for kitties.

k1dude
08-17-2012, 12:12 AM
For California, the .45 is fine.

If you think you might go to Alaska, the 10mm is better.

.45 ammo is cheaper and more readily available than 10mm.

10mm
08-17-2012, 2:59 AM
I've seen D.E. 50 cal bullets on sale online for only $20 per 20 round box (I think it was cheaper than dirt). I recently picked up a D.E. as I want to purchase one, I was SHOCKED at how heavy that gun is, felt like it was 8lbs, not sure I could carry that on me, it would really be a bear (pun intended) to carry around.

If you are comfortable carrying a DE on your hip, I'd go for it, wait for rounds to go on sale and but them in bulk. Plus having a D.E. is a cool toy to own.

Good luck with whatever you get,

PS. Someone once told me, if you have to shoot a bear with a 357 magnum pistol, the first 5 rounds are for the bear......

I would never recommend a Desert Eagle for self defense. My opinion and experience is they jam at the worst moments. On the shooting range thier great. You could take your time and adjust your grip and clear problems. But when your hide is on the line go with a Glock 20SF shooting hard cast bullets along with a extended barrel when confronted by a large predator.

As far as practice ammo goes, BVAC has a offering that starts at ~$22 for 50 rounds. The ammo is not going to be loaded hot but it will get you shooting for practive. Check out cheaperthandirt.com for good prices. They don't price rape thier customers like some of the LGS.

10mm
08-17-2012, 3:09 AM
.45 ACP:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

10mm:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/10mm.htm

not a huge diffference between the two in terms of the range of FPS and penetration scores

Respectfully, I call FUD!
Average round of 45 acp is ~900 FPS on a good day.

Average round of 10 mm is ~1300 and up when using premuim self defense or hunting ammo.

That's not taking into account the muzzle energy.

Excelsior
08-17-2012, 3:58 AM
It isn't.

Someday I will get a 10mm hunting sidearm and call it good. It will be a handgun, not a Glock.

A Glock is a "handgun." :rolleyes:

10mm
08-17-2012, 4:09 AM
A Glock is a "handgun." :rolleyes:

Maybe someone knows something we don't. Or just maybe he considers Glocks to be substandard and not worthy of bieng called handguns. By the way I own the 20SF and the 20 Gen. 3. My go to handguns for when ever the need comes.

1000stars
08-17-2012, 4:21 AM
"The Best Calber is the one in your hand when you need it most" I don't remember who quoted this.

hasserl
08-17-2012, 9:51 AM
Appreciate the reply, I didn't know a Sig 357 was that potent?

357 sig will never be able to touch 10mm or 45. A fast 125gr hp vs a heavy cast 10mm or 45. 357sig is for 2legg vermin and upclose for kitties.

That's not correct. 357Sig delivers more energy and better penetration with a larger crush cavity than 45ACP.

This is just one experiment from one brand of ammo, but it is representative of typical results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkrSZZ4zmoY

Here's more info: http://www.ballistics101.com/357_sig.php

& http://www.mouseguns.com/PopularHandgunAmmoComparison.pdf

As was stated early in the thread, what you want is penetration. The 357Sig will get you that.

ebigga67
08-17-2012, 10:09 AM
The Glock 20 and 21 both have conversion barrels for each to convert one to the other, and there is also a .50 cal conversion for both.

k1dude
08-17-2012, 10:11 AM
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread regarding calibers.

A hot .45 is far less powerful than a hot 10mm.

In general, the .45 is less powerful than the .357 Sig.

-hanko
08-17-2012, 10:13 AM
If you shat a deer with that the dear would not be good for anything besides fish bait.
:confused:

Google cathole.

Fish typically won't take a lure that's been shat upon.

Shatting on animals can get you arrested.

hth

-hanko

Ryououki
08-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Unforunetly yes its true . The entire rear of the gun slides bak to expose the whole rear of the barrel . the shells fly a little up a straight back. They are not the greatest thing to shoot except on a range and that after a few roumnds is not fun anymore. The higher cal. rounds like the .44 and .50 and cut into your forehead and make you bleed. You need to where a baseball cap when shooting them. Keep the bill just abouve the rear site so the shell dont ping under the cap. If you get a DE 50 it will be a Zombie gu n and you will only use it for that purpose.

I have 2 DE 50ae pistols. And with over 150 rounds fired between the two, only once have I been hit in the forehead by a casing. Usually, they clear past my head with no issues. I have also let at least 8 other people fire them and none of them have had the experience of getting pinged in the forehead.

Could it be the way you are holding the pistol? Not saying you doing anything wrong, just stating my experiences.

AJD
08-17-2012, 12:21 PM
That's not correct. 357Sig delivers more energy and better penetration with a larger crush cavity than 45ACP.

This is just one experiment from one brand of ammo, but it is representative of typical results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkrSZZ4zmoY

Here's more info: http://www.ballistics101.com/357_sig.php

& http://www.mouseguns.com/PopularHandgunAmmoComparison.pdf

As was stated early in the thread, what you want is penetration. The 357Sig will get you that.

You're confusing temporary cavity with crush cavity. The key word is "temporary." The youtube link clearly shows the .45 with more expansion, temporary cavity doesn't mean a darn thing with service caliber handgun rounds. From Dr. Gary Roberts:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage.

And energy does not quantify effectiveness. You can read the following write up by the FBI on wound ballistics:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

All of that is moot though, as you wouldn't want to use a hollowpoint with these rounds and you would want maximum penetration against a big heavy dangerous animal.

hasserl
08-17-2012, 1:12 PM
All of that is moot though, as you wouldn't want to use a hollowpoint with these rounds and you would want maximum penetration against a big heavy dangerous animal.

OK then. The 357 Sig will achieve greater penetration than the 45 ACP.

It still wouldn't be my first choice, but between the calibers mentioned I would choose it over the 45, maybe over the 10MM as well, depending on other criteria.

m98
08-17-2012, 2:35 PM
That's not correct. 357Sig delivers more energy and better penetration with a larger crush cavity than 45ACP.

This is just one experiment from one brand of ammo, but it is representative of typical results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkrSZZ4zmoY

Here's more info: http://www.ballistics101.com/357_sig.php

& http://www.mouseguns.com/PopularHandgunAmmoComparison.pdf

As was stated early in the thread, what you want is penetration. The 357Sig will get you that.

Ummm, 357sig only works well when loaded with light boolits are loaded to achieve higher velocities. Ofcourse the energy levels in a hot 357sig can be a tiny bit higher than the 45 but if the 45 was loaded with the lightest boolit available guess what happens. Hence the 10mm loaded hot with 135gr slugs. AND a 45 will never shrink. 45 loaded with hardcast will do more damage. 357 relies on maximum bullet expansion whereas a 45 is already a 45 in expansion. Add that with the hadcast and loaded hot it will provide better penetration especially on bears. Dont fall for the 357sig hype being superior to 40sw/45/10mm bcuz if it was le dept and the fbi would have adopted it. And for the price of good 357sig ammo, i'd rather buy 10mm ammo

m98
08-17-2012, 2:55 PM
You're confusing temporary cavity with crush cavity. The key word is "temporary." The youtube link clearly shows the .45 with more expansion, temporary cavity doesn't mean a darn thing with service caliber handgun rounds. From Dr. Gary Roberts:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887


And energy does not quantify effectiveness. You can read the following write up by the FBI on wound ballistics:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

All of that is moot though, as you wouldn't want to use a hollowpoint with these rounds and you would want maximum penetration against a big heavy dangerous animal.


^^+1.....

Neptune
08-18-2012, 12:32 AM
Run ins are not attacks, I too have had numerous run ins, sightings, the difference is you most likely will never see the attack until it happens, ps you can not shoot a Lion just because you came within shooting distance.

I never said the run ins were attacks. Two of the incidents involved contact within 20', the lions hesitated, then turned and ran.

Another incident resulted in the lion jumping down off the hill behind me on an active stalk. I turned around after barely hearing him. The fact that I heard him really pissed him off and he continued towards me, trying to flank me while howling and roaring. He was big, hungry, and pissed off.

I had stopped on the trail for a minute to piss, and continued to do so while watching this all go down. I started to piss in a wide arc while slowly backing off and moving away from the lion, and this seemed to confuse the cat. I was effectively marking my territory, something that cats are particularly sensitive to. The cat continued trying to circle and follow me, howling like a banshee. He got bored after following 30 yards or so and went to look for food elsewhere. I was in justifiable danger and would have had no problem shooting him had I had a weapon on hand.

Being stalked sucks. After plenty of bear and mountain lion experience, I'll continue to watch my back and carry something heavy enough to stop a pissed off animal.




__

vector16
08-22-2012, 6:56 PM
well I got the Glock 21 FS. I ordered it from Galleryofguns.com and ended up spending $638 after taxes and DROS. BPS wanted $649 + tax, so I think I got a great deal. I really like that the body of the gun is larger than my other ones, it just fits my hands better. Now I get to play the 10 day waiting game, it sucks. Its like putting a kid in a candy store and telling them they can pick out whatever they want but they have to wait till they get home to eat it.
I personaly think the 10 day wait is a load of c**p. I feel that if someone is already a registered gun owner they should be able to buy another gun over the counter. Just walk in, take the DROS and walk out with the new toy in hand.
I now just have to find a store that sells the 45+p in FMJ. I asked the GS if they had any, they ony had JHP. HPs just won't do the trick for penetration purposes when you are being stalked by a preditor. Anyone know of a store near Modesto that sells 45+p FMJ? does BPS sell them?

Oceanbob
08-22-2012, 7:19 PM
well I got the Glock 21 FS. I ordered it from Galleryofguns.com and ended up spending $638 after taxes and DROS. BPS wanted $649 + tax, so I think I got a great deal. I really like that the body of the gun is larger than my other ones, it just fits my hands better. Now I get to play the 10 day waiting game, it sucks. Its like putting a kid in a candy store and telling them they can pick out whatever they want but they have to wait till they get home to eat it.
I personaly think the 10 day wait is a load of c**p. I feel that if someone is already a registered gun owner they should be able to buy another gun over the counter. Just walk in, take the DROS and walk out with the new toy in hand.
I now just have to find a store that sells the 45+p in FMJ. I asked the GS if they had any, they ony had JHP. HPs just won't do the trick for penetration purposes when you are being stalked by a preditor. Anyone know of a store near Modesto that sells 45+p FMJ? does BPS sell them?

Good choice...Plus you can always install a 10MM top and mag if you want to switch up.

Investigate these options for hot FMJ in .45

http://www.underwoodammo.com/45acpp230grainjacketedhollowpointboxof50-1.aspx

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=96&osCsid=d9ok4jun41bap8qaf6qmassmj3


For this hardcast lead load you should install an aftermarket barrel. Lonewolf would work.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=650&osCsid=d9ok4jun41bap8qaf6qmassmj3

vector16
08-22-2012, 7:51 PM
I really would rather not order ammo on-line again. The last time it took over a month to get to me and 1/3 of the ammo was faulty. They told me to send it back and they would replace it, all I would have to pay is shipping. I told them that paying for shipping was too expensive and I already did, and they still sent me BS ammo. Anywhere in the area would be great. Wally World has regular 230gr ammo that I realkly like (TULAmmo) but not sure if they have the +p.

Oceanbob
08-22-2012, 9:00 PM
I really would rather not order ammo on-line again. The last time it took over a month to get to me and 1/3 of the ammo was faulty. They told me to send it back and they would replace it, all I would have to pay is shipping. I told them that paying for shipping was too expensive and I already did, and they still sent me BS ammo. Anywhere in the area would be great. Wally World has regular 230gr ammo that I realkly like (TULAmmo) but not sure if they have the +p.

Well, the companies above ship same day without issues. This isn't surplus, oddball stuff. It is custom ammo made for hunting and self defense. Well known companies.

I doubt any gunstore will have hardcast lead +p or FMJ +p in .45 auto.

If you do find one, let us know.

Good luck.:D

vector16
08-23-2012, 12:36 PM
Holy Cow!!! I almost had my turkey sandwich come out my nose, $13 for shipping on a $28 order. I thought the last place was pricy at $7.

voiceofreason
08-23-2012, 9:25 PM
If being used as defense for mountain lions, definitely 10mm with the heaviest fastest FMJ loads you can find that are reliable.

I wouldn't keep a 10mm as a general shooting gun. I love my G20, but it's not for general shooting or 2 legged targets.

A G20 operates and shoots just like a 9mm or .40 glock. Same manual of arms. The G20 is amazing as far as tamping the recoil of a hot 10mm round compared to the 1911 platform.

I would not get a G20 unless you have a few other pistols already.

If this is your only gun, get a 9mm first.

A .45 FMJ in +p flavor might not be too bad an option if you want to shoot it regularly.

TripleThreat
08-23-2012, 11:49 PM
... The G20 is amazing as far as tamping the recoil of a hot 10mm round compared to the 1911 platform....

Currently looking at 10mm so this is something to consider, since Glocks are lightweight in comparison to 1911s' I thought it would be the opposite.

I'd like to hear more folks chime-in and see if they are having the same experience.

ElDub1950
08-24-2012, 12:06 AM
You stated you're not sure about the availability of 10mm. Does that mean you're not familiar with the cost compared to 45 cal? 10mm can be 50% higher than the cost of 45 cal. I always have to think about ammo cost. It would be sad to own something I couldn't afford to shoot .. a lot! :43:

vector16
08-24-2012, 8:51 AM
You stated you're not sure about the availability of 10mm. Does that mean you're not familiar with the cost compared to 45 cal? 10mm can be 50% higher than the cost of 45 cal. I always have to think about ammo cost. It would be sad to own something I couldn't afford to shoot .. a lot! :43:

Not only the cost of the ammo but the availability of the ammo itself. I had stated in previous posts that the 10mm ammo is hard to find. I called BPS before I purchased and they had it for $34 a box of 50. I called back the day I was going to buy and they did not have any. I guess that when a store has them, much like 8ga shells, you buy them out. I did go with the glock 21. I think I made a good decision. when it finally shipped to the GS I got to hold its and play with it a little. the gun really fits my hand well. I do not see anyone with a smaller hand than I beable to use the gun. That is a nice safety feature by itself. I do have large hands. I do have a Glock 17 (9mm) and that works for what I need it for. I have it loaded right now with 147gr JHP. I think those will work a tad better at close range than the 115gr if an intruder decides it would be a good idea the break into my home. I also have a S&W .40 cal. I am not a fan of .40 cal. I think they are way under powered for the size slug. I am not a stanger to larger cal's and I think the .45+p FMJ will work for what I need it to do. I will not be shooting the +p at the range though. The 230gr Wally World ammo is for that at $22 a box its hard to beat.

glenbear
08-24-2012, 9:19 PM
Well imho 10mm 1st choice for a lot of reasons. I have 3, also 3 45's. 10's "can" be a handful, especially with hot loads (like Buffalo Bore) Think BANG vs Bang. 10 is easy to find, just not at most gun stores. Online EASY Midway, SGAMMO, Cabelas, Any gunshow where Miwall shows up. Doubletap, Hornady, Buff Bore are not EVEN like .40 cal. Kimber 1911 in 10mm, Smith Gen3 10 series, even those funny looking Glocks. Word to the wise think reloading in your future if you want to practice a lot.

SFBA
08-25-2012, 2:08 PM
Get the 10 milli and change barrels if you want to go plinking and back to 10 for home defence or backpacking in the woods

+1 I have to G20 with the Lone Wolf 40 S&W. The 40 S&W is redundant for you, but in situation where you need two guns of the same caliper, ran out of ammo, or whtever....also packs a bigger punch than the 45. The cool thing about the G20, a 357 Sig barrel is also available.

vector16
08-26-2012, 3:21 PM
+1 I have to G20 with the Lone Wolf 40 S&W.

I don't get that. If you want to have and use a .40 cal why in gods name would you not buy a .40 cal? If you want to fire a .40 why would you buy a 10mm? I have a .40 s&w I have .357 I have 9mm etc.. I do not see the purpose of having one gun that can be 2 oe 3 guns. If 1 of your guns has a problem then all of your guns have a problem. If one does not work, none of them work. I would not buy a $700 gun just so I could buy a $150 for new barrel+ $40 for extra mags etc so I could shoot a $400 gun.

ExtremeX
08-26-2012, 3:34 PM
I love the 10mm cartridge. It packs a nice punch for a semi auto.

For defense against larger animals… 10mm vs 45 ACP. 10mm is my pick. Shoot one with good hot ammo and the choice is easy.

It kind of helps if you reload. I have been saving my friends 10mm brass on the off chance I actually get a 10mm.

k1dude
08-26-2012, 7:39 PM
I don't get that. If you want to have and use a .40 cal why in gods name would you not buy a .40 cal? If you want to fire a .40 why would you buy a 10mm? I have a .40 s&w I have .357 I have 9mm etc.. I do not see the purpose of having one gun that can be 2 oe 3 guns. If 1 of your guns has a problem then all of your guns have a problem. If one does not work, none of them work. I would not buy a $700 gun just so I could buy a $150 for new barrel+ $40 for extra mags etc so I could shoot a $400 gun.

Because .40 is cheaper to shoot and practice with than 10mm. And you can buy a barrel for $99 and your 10mm mags still work with .40 rounds.

Which is cheaper - $565 for a new .40 cal weapon or $99 for a new barrel?

vector16
08-26-2012, 8:15 PM
Which is cheaper - $565 for a new .40 cal weapon or $99 for a new barrel?

I know that its cheaper to shoot the .40s but then you don't get the practice with the 10mm, as far as controling the gun and so on. Wouldn't you jus be better off reloading the 10mm and having a G22 along with the G20? JMO.
I am still playing the waiting game as of now. I can go pick it up at the end of the week. I will be on vacation this weekend so I will probably be really peroccupied knowing that my new gun in waiting for me at the GS. I really have always thought this 10 day BS is a waist of time. What does it really do anyway for someone that already owns guns anyhow?

k1dude
08-26-2012, 9:14 PM
I know that its cheaper to shoot the .40s but then you don't get the practice with the 10mm, as far as controling the gun and so on. Wouldn't you jus be better off reloading the 10mm and having a G22 along with the G20? JMO.
I am still playing the waiting game as of now. I can go pick it up at the end of the week. I will be on vacation this weekend so I will probably be really peroccupied knowing that my new gun in waiting for me at the GS. I really have always thought this 10 day BS is a waist of time. What does it really do anyway for someone that already owns guns anyhow?

Most bulk 10mm is fairly mild with the same energy as a .40. So you don't loose any of the training feel using one caliber over the other. I guess you could practice with hot loaded 10mm for the full effect, but who can afford $1 per round?

Yes, reloading is always the best option.

Oceanbob
08-27-2012, 8:20 AM
I need a round that could do some dammage to a charging preditor like a mt. lion or a bear if the need should ever arise. I know a this would just be for that extreem circumstance. The 10mm would probably do a better job but the ammo is more exoensive and I have heard its getting hard to find. Is this the case? I would really like to get the .45 so don't get me wrong. I have also heard and read that there are realibility issues with the 10mm, more so than the good old .45 AP. I have had .45's in ther past but they were for SD and I was not taking into acct that I might have to use it on a larger animal. Any thoughts?

Well, you bought the G21 in .45

It will do just fine for general shooting BUT it will not do the job a properly loaded 10MM will do against a Mountain Lion or a Bear.

Nothing can touch the Glock 20 (SF) in 10MM, .40 or .357 SIG (with just a $99 barrel change).

Reloading would help save money and let you customize your WOODS CARRY AMMO. Either that or spend money on Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Underwood...etc...for 10MM or .45 Auto hardcast hot stuff.

If you can't get any hot .45 FMJ (you want 1000 FPS stuff) then I would rather carry a hot .40 caliber with more capacity. JMO.

Cruznegao
08-27-2012, 10:58 AM
You should by a Hi Point .45. After emptying the mag you can throw the gun at the animal and kill it with the massive weight... (hard to insert the couch emoticon from the cellphone)

vector16
08-27-2012, 5:48 PM
You should by a Hi Point .45. After emptying the mag you can throw the gun at the animal and kill it with the massive weight... (hard to insert the couch emoticon from the cellphone)

Here is another guy that has never had or muchless fired a hi-Point. If you were to read my intro from a couple years ago you would know that I do own a few. They are all very reliable, and very accurate. They are lighter than alot of guns out there. If toy wabt to tak weight, try talking about a desert eagle or nearly all of the wheel gun out there, heck you can even compare the weight to a good ole' Colt 1911. The Hi-Point is lighter than them all and nearly as accurate. I fdon't have a problem knocking out the centers of targets at 25 yards with my Hi-points. No do I have a problem doing the same with my Glock.
Befpre you go tear something apart just based on your own opinion because of the price of the gun, just remember that an intruder would be just as dead weather you shoot them with a $3,000 gun or a $159 gun.
Go find someone that has one and ask them if you can put a couple hundred round down range. There are many people on this forum that own them and really like them, esspecially the TS carbines.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
08-27-2012, 10:04 PM
vector, you did not make a bad choice. Really, neither the .45ACP or the 10MM is a guaranteed bear repellent. One would be hard pressed to find one that was, unless you were to consider one of the more exotic calibers such as the .454 Casull or .50 S&W.

Up until last Friday, I would have made the same choice that you did (and a G21SF does reside in my safe, I enjoy shooting it). That day, a buddy and I met for a range session in which I fired his G20SF. I was surprised to find that it was not much different shooting the G20 than my G21. Today, I wouldn't be unhappy with either pistol in hand.

TripleThreat
08-27-2012, 10:17 PM
Most of the factory 10mm rounds are very weak, I'm not sure why, but that's just how it is. If you shot 10mm round consistent with other factory loads, it would shoot with noticeably more force.

The Virus
08-28-2012, 7:20 AM
.45 don't shrink!! JMB built the only handgun a MAN needs!
It's not called .45 ACP (A*s Crippling Projectile) for nothing.
Stopping power!

ExtremeX
08-28-2012, 11:08 AM
Most of the factory 10mm rounds are very weak, I'm not sure why, but that's just how it is. If you shot 10mm round consistent with other factory loads, it would shoot with noticeably more force.

Agreed

Properly loaded (Hot) 10mm rounds which I have fired in the Glock were like a hand canon compared my 1911 .45

10mm just puts out mounds of velocity, if you donít like snappy then 10mm isnít for you. When dealing with larger game with thicker coats the extra velocity is going to be nice to have.

vector16
08-28-2012, 2:03 PM
.45 don't shrink!! JMB built the only handgun a MAN needs!
It's not called .45 ACP (A*s Crippling Projectile) for nothing.
Stopping power!

I like the sound of that. There is something about that round that is very noticable. Maybe the smaller than a dime hole in front and the fist sized hole in back or maybe its the special loads you can buy in other states that are able to take limbs off or maybe its just the american legend of the .45 itself. Use of a .45 for SD or HD is the iconicly best choice. I do have a G17 loaded with 147gr JHPs that I have for that purpose. I really like the results from the ballistics gel, my last trip to the range.

4 days till I can go pick up the G21 FS. I did not want to get the SF. I do like the FS and I know that not everyone and their sister can't hold the thing and fire it. My girl can't even reach the trigger.

TripleThreat
08-28-2012, 4:03 PM
Since it seems to be true that most 10mm factory rounds are about the same strength as a .40 cal round. Would a 40+P or +P+ be stronger then today's watered down factory 10mm rounds?

vector16
08-28-2012, 5:35 PM
Since it seems to be true that most 10mm factory rounds are about the same strength as a .40 cal round. Would a 40+P or +P+ be stronger then today's watered down factory 10mm rounds?

I load my .40 ve with +p and have had +p+ in it. since most 10mm rounds are under powered it does not really seem like a good investment. I have heard now that the 10mm is somewhere in the middle between a .45 and a .357. I would guess that would be a .40 with high viloc.

Warhawk014
08-28-2012, 6:10 PM
underwood ammo is the best stuff you can get for the 10mm round. i have bought from them before and will buy more when i need 10mm ammo. their stuff is top notch. full power 10's is the way to go.

vector16
08-28-2012, 6:25 PM
underwood ammo is the best stuff you can get for the 10mm round. i have bought from them before and will buy more when i need 10mm ammo. their stuff is top notch. full power 10's is the way to go.

Gun Shows, Gun Shows, Gun Shows, Gun Shows, Gun Shows, mis the way of the future. Thjta is what I am seenig for you 10mm owners

ExtremeX
08-28-2012, 6:28 PM
Reload, Reload, Reload, Reload, Reload, thats all a 10mm owner ever needs to do =)

Or dont reload and leave your brass at the range so I can have it.

locosway
08-29-2012, 6:51 AM
I am going to be buying a new Glock in the next week. I am going to get either a 20 or a 21. I know that .45 is readily available anywhere. Not so sure about 10mm. I do need a gun for SD but I do have a .40 S&W and a G17 so the SD is just one more thing. I need a round that could do some dammage to a charging preditor like a mt. lion or a bear if the need should ever arise. I know a this would just be for that extreem circumstance. I will also have a 30-06 when I am hunting out in ther woods. So would a .45 or a .45+p do the trick. HP or FMJ? The 10mm would probably do a better job but the ammo is more exoensive and I have heard its getting hard to find. Is this the case? I would really like to get the .45 so don't get me wrong. I have also heard and read that there are realibility issues with the 10mm, more so than the good old .45 AP. I have had .45's in ther past but they were for SD and I was not taking into acct that I might have to use it on a larger animal. Any thoughts?

If you already have a 9mm and a .40, and you're looking for something that works on larger animals, I would recommend the 10mm. I have a Glock 20 and I love it. Ammo is not hard to find, but if you want full power loads you'll have to buy online at $1/round or reload your own.

TripleThreat
08-29-2012, 7:35 AM
...Ammo is not hard to find, but if you want full power loads you'll have to buy online at $1/round...

I keep hearing that, but I don't keep seeing that.

Underwood can be had for as low as 50 cents a round and my local guns store has 10mm for $25 for a box for 50.

locosway
08-29-2012, 8:05 AM
I keep hearing that, but I don't keep seeing that.

Underwood can be had for as low as 50 cents a round and my local guns store has 10mm for $25 for a box for 50.

The gun stores around me don't carry 10mm, and the one that does has only a few brands and they are not full power loads.

Consider yourself lucky if you can get full power loads for cheap.

CK_32
08-29-2012, 8:25 AM
Question..

How many calibers can the Glock 20 shoot with conversions barrels?

locosway
08-29-2012, 8:26 AM
Question..

How many calibers can the Glock 20 shoot with conversions barrels?

4 that I know of.

gotshotgun?
08-29-2012, 8:31 AM
10mm, .40, 9x25 Dillon, .357 sig

locosway
08-29-2012, 8:31 AM
10mm, .40, 9x25 Dillon, .357 sig

You mean 9x25