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Dont Tread on Me
06-15-2007, 11:58 AM
I went in for a checkup at the doctor today and filled out their standard form:

..
Do you wear seatbelts?
Do you wear a bike helmet?
Do you have a gun in the house?
..

I hoped the gun question would lead to checking my knowledge on hearing and eye protection and maybe lead problems. Nope, you get some Brady BS on how having a gun in the house means that you will get killed by it.

It never ceases to amaze me how far and deep the anti gun agenda has spread. It appears owning a gun is a health risk in the eyes of doctors...

mow
06-15-2007, 12:03 PM
None of their business?

SemiAutoSam
06-15-2007, 12:04 PM
I have an answer for their FORM.

NOYFB optional addon AH.

As to have an equal voice I feel its a health hazard if your in an bad environment and do not have a firearm.

Wraith
06-15-2007, 12:16 PM
NOYFB

Here, here.

GJJ
06-15-2007, 12:17 PM
Read the doctor the freaking riot act to his FACE. If enough people do that, they will mind their own business.

Doctors think they are god. Sadly, most are incompetent buffoons that do nothing but write prescriptions.

Dont Tread on Me
06-15-2007, 12:19 PM
I deliberately answered to see where it would go.

We're all immune. The problem is that guns are now being treated in the mainstream like saturated fat and smoking. Imagine Mrs Soccer Mom in for her annual. She fills it out and gets the speech them comes home and tells her husband to sell the hunting rifle or blocks the .22lr purchase for the kids.

Fjold
06-15-2007, 12:23 PM
I have an answer for their FORM.

NOYFB optional addon AH.

As to have an equal voice I feel its a health hazard if your in an bad environment and do not have a firearm.

I spell it out so there is no chance of misinterpration, usually to the effect of:

"The fact that I have or have not firearms in my house has no affect on my health and I consider this question rude and so nonsensical that I question the professional judgement of the person asking it."

chiefcrash
06-15-2007, 12:34 PM
Ask him if he's a doctor. After all, doctors kill more people each year than guns...

hoffmang
06-15-2007, 12:35 PM
When your doctor says that you have a high risk of being hurt by your firearm in your home (which is junk science btw) you should tell him, no, I have a much higher risk of dieing due to medical malpractice - which happens to be true.

-Gene

Wulf
06-15-2007, 12:42 PM
Follow up Gene's question by asking him if his malpractice insurance covers him for his firearms related diagnosis and prescriptive activity.

drclark
06-15-2007, 1:17 PM
Tell him you are going to find a new doctor.


drc

Fate
06-15-2007, 1:17 PM
Regarding intrusive questionaires...seen lots of them lately, especially at the doctor.

Furthermore, lots of companies now ask you to give them all kinds of info, including SSNs and mother's maiden name. I will always decline to give that info until it is a dealbreaker and even then, I've taken my business elsewhere on occasion when they wouldn't proceed without the info in instances where I could see no reason they NEEDED that info.

leelaw
06-15-2007, 1:22 PM
Imagine Mrs Soccer Mom in for her annual. She fills it out and gets the speech them comes home and tells her husband to sell the hunting rifle or blocks the .22lr purchase for the kids.
Sounds like whoever married her didn't pick someone really compatible, or figured owning firearms is a sacrifice he's willing to make.

rkt88edmo
06-15-2007, 1:46 PM
Well, it isn't just the doctor, it is the whole AMA, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just use AMA boilerplate forms.

luvtolean
06-15-2007, 2:02 PM
When your doctor says that you have a high risk of being hurt by your firearm in your home (which is junk science btw) you should tell him, no, I have a much higher risk of dieing due to medical malpractice - which happens to be true.

-Gene

Or that the kids are a couple orders of magnitude more likely to drown in his fancy swimming pool.

vikingshelmut
06-15-2007, 2:24 PM
ca_brit, you're scaring me as I am in the South Bay as well. Please let me know which doctor/medical group this happened at so I can make sure I avoid them. You can send it in a PM if you wish.

M1A Rifleman
06-15-2007, 2:39 PM
Last month I took my kid in for the physical. The doctor asked him questions, with me present. I was waiting for the question on guns - it didn't happen luckily. :sleeping:

icormba
06-15-2007, 2:42 PM
Do you have a gun in the house?

No, I do not have A gun in the house.

PanzerAce
06-15-2007, 2:54 PM
Do you have a gun in the house?

No, I do not have A gun in the house.

best response ever

luvtolean
06-15-2007, 2:59 PM
Do you have a gun in the house?

No, I do not have A gun in the house.

:D:D:43:

That is the right response. With proper inflection of course.

CSACANNONEER
06-15-2007, 3:20 PM
Where is that e-mail about how many people die each year from guns vs. doctors?

MrEd
06-15-2007, 3:25 PM
I got hit at the doctor with that question and declined to answer , on another note our building insurance asked the same question and then "ordered" us to keep firearms and ammo separate " fireman's fund" . I called them up and explained to them California law , printed out the Gun laws Booklet and sent it to them , called them again and asked them if they would like to take up the matter with the NRA . They immediately decided to drop the requirement . ( they were threatening with a rate increase if we did not comply )

hoffmang
06-15-2007, 3:31 PM
Table 10 of this is interesting:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_13.pdf

Notice that in 2003 there were 2,855 deaths from surgical and medical complications. There were 730 deaths by accidental discharge of firearm...

Getting shot by a home invader isn't a risk of owning a gun in the home...

-Gene

CSACANNONEER
06-15-2007, 3:38 PM
Thanks Gene, I knew I had seen real stats somewhere. I guess the question that the doctor should have asked is: "Do you feel lucky?" If the answer is "No," he should refuse to PRACTICE medicine on you?

Dont Tread on Me
06-15-2007, 3:47 PM
I'm not blaming this doc. It is just a sign of how stupid things have gotten.

I do like the comparison between medical mistakes and accidental deaths. There should be a question "do you have a doctor".

I read the statistic on swimming pools vs guns too in the book Freakenomics. You have a one in a million chance of a gun accident death vs one in 11 thousand for a swimming pool. The form did not ask about swimming pools.

Rumpled
06-15-2007, 3:52 PM
OC here has been called the highest swimming pool death area around.
It's amazing the large number of toddlers reported in the paper drwoning.
Any time of year and it's always the "only gone for a few minutes"
As a lifelong swimmer and lifeguard I find it stupid on the homeowners and parents. Right behind the baby in the car people.

Dont Tread on Me
06-15-2007, 3:59 PM
OC here has been called the highest swimming pool death area around.

Can we start lobbying Sacramento for low capacity swimming pools, 10 day waits when buying them, and swimming pool safety certificates? How about micro stamping the water so when someone drowns you can figure out which pool it happened in. It might take their mind off of us.

We could call ourselves the "Brady Campaign to Prevent Swimming Pool Deaths"

morepoop4u
06-15-2007, 7:02 PM
I would have checked yes and whipped out these badboys http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Conan_568/Personal/Ouch1.jpg

CLICK CLICK :chris:

Osprey
06-15-2007, 7:16 PM
Double post

Osprey
06-15-2007, 7:18 PM
Ask him if he's a doctor. After all, doctors kill more people each year than guns...

When your doctor says that you have a high risk of being hurt by your firearm in your home (which is junk science btw) you should tell him, no, I have a much higher risk of dieing due to medical malpractice - which happens to be true.

-Gene

LOL. That was my first thought too. I'd have written in below the other questions, "Do you go to the doctor?" and drawn a little box and checked it off.

ETA: Missed ca_brit's last post.

USMC_2651_E5
06-15-2007, 7:43 PM
I would have checked yes and whipped out these badboys http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Conan_568/Personal/Ouch1.jpg

CLICK CLICK :chris:

Dude, I hope thats not your arm. If so, you really need to place the toe of the stock in the pocket.

Sawku
06-15-2007, 7:52 PM
As a Primary Care doctor....I have seen this question numerous times as one of those "suggested" questions to use when taking a patient's history. The medical community (primarily Pediatrics) recommend this to be asked when doing a well child visit.
I have always cringed at it.....and of course have never asked it. The only time I talk firearms is if one of my male patients brings up hunting or shooting, we will detour the whole visit to compare our collections, local ranges, etc. If they really wanted to be effective with this approach.....what health care providers should do is say something like...."Make sure your firearms are properly/safely secured in your home"...yada yada......."this is how i suggest securing your firearms".....yada yada...."have you taught your children firearm saftey"......etc. But i truly don't think it is the responsibility of the Medical professional to even go there. I just leave the whole topic alone......too many other important things to cover, like skyrocketing childhood obesity, which will kill many more folks than firearm accidents. I am amazed at the number of overweight kids these days. And you guys are so right on.......swimming pool safety is much more important.
Perhaps the doctor in this original post was just using some prefab/canned questionaire they mass produced from some medical company. I wonder what he/she would actually be prepared to say if the answer was "yes, i do have firearms". Most of my colleagues would have no real answer to it I am afraid. There are some pediatric groups out there that are campaigning against firearms though.
I am in a large group of physicians in So. Cal.......and the few of us who own firearms and head out to the range together are viewed as "nuts". Though well respected ones at that. That is So. Cal for ya though. <shrugs> It's all good.

rocketboy
06-15-2007, 8:13 PM
I hear the gun thing every time I take the kids to the doctor. Luckily my pediatrician is on the right page. He rolls his eyes every time he ask the question.

Dont Tread on Me
06-15-2007, 8:19 PM
I hear the gun thing every time I take the kids to the doctor. Luckily my pediatrician is on the right page. He rolls his eyes every time he ask the question.

Is that because your kids are all packing:-)

Hope to see you at the match tomorrow.

tman
06-15-2007, 11:01 PM
I am glad people brought up the fact that swimming pools are far more dangerous, statistically. Even bathtubs, depending on what statistics you read.

You should have asked him why swimming pools were not on his stupid little list.

That's what I plan on doing if any doctor tries to lecture me.

jdberger
06-16-2007, 12:52 AM
I just ignore the question (easy, because it's usually on a form). I also ignore questions about tobacco, booze and massage parlors. :eek:

Then again, maybe they're concerned about real potential dangers with firearms.............like M1 Thumb!

NRAhighpowershooter
06-16-2007, 12:28 PM
The question about guns in the house is standard for kaiser hospital.. especially if you go to the pediatrics dept for the first time with a new born..... I told them to go pound sand....

Hoop
06-16-2007, 1:33 PM
That's what I plan on doing if any doctor tries to lecture me.

My doctor never makes it beyond the smoking/drugs/alcohol section.

Ditto on what the above guy said regarding obese kids, there are a TONS of em rolling around :)

SemiAutoSam
06-16-2007, 5:48 PM
Tell me about it. they would give anything their asked and not even asked why they want this information.

I asked the medical center receptionist why they wanted the info once and they just stated we are told to collect it and that was it I told them well you don't need it and If you refuse service for us not providing it I will use the privacy act of 1974 and get medieval on their assets and sue them.

Before the kid checkups I always remind my wife to not answer that question. Gotta watch the wives and what information they volunteer.

Dr. Peter Venkman
06-16-2007, 6:44 PM
I put down "Yes" when I was asked if I had guns on a little chart. I figured I could give a good pep talk on how gun control does not work and what the 2A was all about.

I was never asked.

Hoop
06-16-2007, 6:50 PM
Gotta watch the wives and what information they volunteer.

Why? How many do you have? I thought the consensus was that one is more than enough.

socalguns
06-16-2007, 6:54 PM
Everybody wants something for free.
I don't do surveys unless I got a complaint.

Yankee Clipper
06-16-2007, 7:16 PM
Why? How many do you have? I thought the consensus was that one is more than enough.
'More than enough'? How about when 'one' is describing a surplus?
More to the point, how about we scratch through the question and answer: Not Health Applicable. And if asked, quote from the forgoing post regarding the items that are really detrimental to our health: malpractice, swimming pools, (add in automobiles, environmental contaminates, prescription errors) etc.
Lucky for me my family doctor supports my shooting, as does my therapist, I bring my rifle to my optometrist office to get the right shooting prescription, and my dentist and I go shooting together. I know, we should all be that lucky.

spgk380
06-16-2007, 11:08 PM
When your doctor says that you have a high risk of being hurt by your firearm in your home (which is junk science btw) you should tell him, no, I have a much higher risk of dieing due to medical malpractice - which happens to be true.

-Gene

Much of medicine in general is junk science. They conduct their BS correlation studies looking for correlation deep in the noise and publish a new, contradicting paper every week that they call a "study." Medicine is not nearly as rigorous as biology or physics. Med school is a vocational school, not a serious scientific research program. Unfortunately, most doctors are still living in the 19th century when doctors were respected as scientists.

.223
06-16-2007, 11:18 PM
I deliberately answered to see where it would go.

We're all immune. The problem is that guns are now being treated in the mainstream like saturated fat and smoking. Imagine Mrs Soccer Mom in for her annual. She fills it out and gets the speech them comes home and tells her husband to sell the hunting rifle or blocks the .22lr purchase for the kids.

Protip: Don't marry a soccer mom. Alternatively, ditch the soccer mom wife.

BigMac
06-17-2007, 5:53 AM
I wrote in I was a Federal Firearms dealer.


The topic never came up...

Parag
06-17-2007, 7:07 PM
Maybe they're worried you'll start snorting the powder in the cartridges, then end up going to the harder stuff. Tell 'em you only sniff black-powder and then only in company.

-- Parag

glocker65
06-17-2007, 8:21 PM
My girlfriend's father needed hospice care, they asked if anyone in the house used illegal drugs or owned any guns...

grammaton76
06-17-2007, 11:43 PM
My girlfriend's father needed hospice care, they asked if anyone in the house used illegal drugs or owned any guns...

That, I can see - only because, dependent on what's going on, hospice patients can be in a lot of pain at the end and look real hard for a way to finish things quickly.

Fate
06-18-2007, 8:47 AM
That, I can see - only because, dependent on what's going on, hospice patients can be in a lot of pain at the end and look real hard for a way to finish things quickly.
And what's wrong with controlling your own destiny?

JWC6
06-18-2007, 8:54 AM
The form letter for my child's pediatrician was, do you have firearms that have been secured with a lock or safe, which I believe, is pretty acceptable, even by Eddy the Eagle standards.

No ethical preaching or condemnation at all...

BTW, many physicians and nurses are firearms owners and supporters of the RKBA...





As a Primary Care doctor....I have seen this question numerous times as one of those "suggested" questions to use when taking a patient's history. The medical community (primarily Pediatrics) recommend this to be asked when doing a well child visit.
I have always cringed at it.....and of course have never asked it. The only time I talk firearms is if one of my male patients brings up hunting or shooting, we will detour the whole visit to compare our collections, local ranges, etc. If they really wanted to be effective with this approach.....what health care providers should do is say something like...."Make sure your firearms are properly/safely secured in your home"...yada yada......."this is how i suggest securing your firearms".....yada yada...."have you taught your children firearm saftey"......etc. But i truly don't think it is the responsibility of the Medical professional to even go there. I just leave the whole topic alone......too many other important things to cover, like skyrocketing childhood obesity, which will kill many more folks than firearm accidents. I am amazed at the number of overweight kids these days. And you guys are so right on.......swimming pool safety is much more important.
Perhaps the doctor in this original post was just using some prefab/canned questionaire they mass produced from some medical company. I wonder what he/she would actually be prepared to say if the answer was "yes, i do have firearms". Most of my colleagues would have no real answer to it I am afraid. There are some pediatric groups out there that are campaigning against firearms though.
I am in a large group of physicians in So. Cal.......and the few of us who own firearms and head out to the range together are viewed as "nuts". Though well respected ones at that. That is So. Cal for ya though. <shrugs> It's all good.

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 9:20 AM
Alzheimer's or mental illness and guns are a bad mix to a hospice's credit.

-Gene

grammaton76
06-18-2007, 11:26 AM
And what's wrong with controlling your own destiny?

I actually don't see anything wrong with suicide for the terminally ill. However, bear in mind that they could be open to lawsuit by the family if they don't at least give a warning to the family that the patient may try to check out early. Half the stuff anyone officially tells you, in most cases, is just boilerplate to avoid a lawsuit anyway.

Hoop
06-18-2007, 11:35 AM
Alzheimer's or mental illness and guns are a bad mix to a hospice's credit.

-Gene

Considering that I've been threatened at gunpoint by a crazy old guy before (I'd been working on his daughter's house for about a YEAR, I figured he'd know who I was) I'd have to agree with that.

flooby
06-18-2007, 5:53 PM
Everyone, take a deep breath on this topic...

I'm a gun owner and a pediatrician.

I ask every day if there are guns in the home. I rarely, if ever, have someone say yes. However, the main reason I ask is to make sure the guns are locked away. Something my colleagues don't ask but I do is if the ammo is locked separately.

The main reason is purely a safety issue. It's just like asking the parents of toddlers if the cabinets under the sink are locked up.

I will say some of my colleagues act surprised when someone says they have a gun. I ask where they go shooting, since I always need a new place.

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 6:07 PM
Flooby,

If only you were in the majority in the AMA.

-Gene

KenpoProfessor
06-18-2007, 6:08 PM
Everyone, take a deep breath on this topic...

I'm a gun owner and a pediatrician.

I ask every day if there are guns in the home. I rarely, if ever, have someone say yes. However, the main reason I ask is to make sure the guns are locked away. Something my colleagues don't ask but I do is if the ammo is locked separately.

The main reason is purely a safety issue. It's just like asking the parents of toddlers if the cabinets under the sink are locked up.

I will say some of my colleagues act surprised when someone says they have a gun. I ask where they go shooting, since I always need a new place.

When is it your business to pry into a private right? That's equivalent to asking if you believe in abortion, it's none of your business if they're locked up or not, that's for the legal system to determine endangerment. Who the hell do you think you are?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

grammaton76
06-18-2007, 6:14 PM
If the guy's a pediatrician, and it's in the middle of a list of questions including things like "do you keep your household cleaning supplies locked up", then whether it's about safety or about prying is up to the beholder.

I suppose a better question - Flooby, you're in a position to know this. Are those forms retained? If they aren't, and they're just to formulate talking points for your discussion with the patient, I don't see any harm in it.

Dont Tread on Me
06-18-2007, 6:20 PM
flooby - just the type of guy who can add a lot to calguns. I hope you stick around. I think some of the earlier posts are giving you too much heat.

I'm not against the gun question being asked. There are health issues with lead, hearing, eye protection etc. Perhaps one could recommend a first aid course that covers gun shot wound treatment incase a mishap happens. It is worth reminding parents with a new kid that they need to think through the storage options and perhaps kids are very sensitive to lead and one should wash their range clothing away from the baby's.

What upsets me is spewing some half backed statistics on how a gun will jump up and kill everybody in the house all by itself....

Now please don't ask me to separate my gun from its ammo. I use a push button lock box to keep my HD pistol safe but it is stored condition one.

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 6:27 PM
Toddler proofing a house and recommending an Eddie Eagle style firearms safety class for kids are well within what pediatricians should be doing.

The problem comes from the association taking anti-gun stands. When that public stand is out there and then there are these sorts of standard forms generated, it creates an uncomfortable situation.

It would be like asking if someone has their kids take communion and then recommending they not do that because alcohol is dangerous for young kids after the AMA recommended atheism. That's not a perfect analogy, but it does capture the social issue a bit.

-Gene

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 7:25 PM
10Th,

Saying something that reminds someone of "oh yeah" isn't a horrible thing. I've met the toddlers whose parents made an oops on homeproofing. No one deserves that.

-Gene

flooby
06-18-2007, 8:28 PM
I think alot of people are taking simple questions such as "Do you own a firearm?" waaaayyy too personally. Parents always have a right to decline to answer a question, just like how I have the right as a citizen to ask any other citizen a question. If I ask about car seats, immunizations, or baby formulas, parents don't have to answer if they don't want to.

However, I have a moral as well as LEGAL obligation to ensure minors (especially the young ones) are living in a safe environment. My primary responsibility is to the child. If I accidentally offend the parents, I'm sorry, but that is not my #1 concern.

Some folks posted "How dare you ask!!" responses. To them, I'll just say I not a member of the BATFE. I'm just you're kid's doctor. I really do have his/her best interest at heart. I don't know why some people yell at me (daily) in a voice that would get them kicked out of McDonald's. My hope is that you'll let me work with you and your family to ensure the health of your children. There's very few reportable situations, and I'm always honest with the families.

I will also temper my views on this topic in stating that the vast majority of my colleagues are anti-gun. Very few people know I have a few OLLs, hanguns, etc.. A lot of my colleagues answer to guns is to get rid of them (which is wrong). I do advocate to the families and my colleagues early familiarization of firearms, even if they don't like guns. You don't necessarily have to shoot them, but you should know how to unload them and remove the in a safe matter.

Really, I'm not BATFE...:)

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 8:36 PM
I'll agree with Nanny statism being bad, but that's done by government.

This nation was founded on principals that quite allowed and expected social norms to be persuasive. I mean Hamilton died in a duel for crissakes. The level of persuasion that was even allowed in government at the time of the founders would be unacceptable to both sides of the polity today. Read laws banning oral sex or condoning slavery which were certainly part of the founding era's version of the Nanny State.

Please don't confuse the private actions of a pediatrician with the public actions of your municipality, county, state, or federal government. They are not the same. I MUCH prefer that "Nanny" occurs in a the context of a place where I can refuse to answer or choose to take my business elsewhere.

All that said, welcome flooby - we're very glad to have you. How can we help you come out of the closet as a gun owner to your co-workers?

-Gene

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 8:59 PM
10th,

BS.

He has a moral obligation to help. Its not unlike your moral obligation to stop at a traffic accident and render aid. It just so happens that his job to be exposed to those types of moral situations.

How many nearly brain dead children do you want to have in the world that could have been stopped by a pediatrician reminding new (not well slept) parents to police the house for things that toddlers can accidentally get into? It's a very different argument from a requirement or the state making the comment.

-Gene

Dont Tread on Me
06-18-2007, 9:00 PM
Please don't confuse the private actions of a pediatrician with the public actions of your municipality, county, state, or federal government.

This is the key point. I choose my doctor and I can choose to totally ignore his advice, prescriptions, etc. Don't try that with your Government....

My doctor is actually a keeper. He is a fellow karateka and responds to my injuries by criticizing my fighting skills rather than my choice of hobbies. That said, I wish I could find a doctor with an OLL collection!

As for immunizing co-workers to the anti gunners, I find taking them shooting works. I chip away one at a time.

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 9:19 PM
The number one way that we can all have a serious problem here is socialized or single payer health care (DMV health care as I like to call it.)

But short of that, there is a lot of behaviour modification that does and should occur in the confines of societal interactions. There is a whole lot of political speech that I will defend someone's first amendment right to speak and utterly damn them for saying. Certain Palestinian peans come to mind.

This also occurs when I call out a line jumper. I'm actually a bit sad that the opposite is true and too many people just mind their own business. I was standing in a customs line at JFK and some a**h*t American tried to cut in line. Everyone else was quiet but I finally just bellowed - get to the back of the line a**h*le or I'm going to go find an INS agent and ask him to perform a rectal exam. As soon as I spoke up, I had an entire crowd behind me. At least the second part was right.

Its the same way I might defend someone's desire to not be mandated to wear a helmet, but still call him and idiot and a squid for not choosing to.

And 10th, always a pleasure!

-Gene

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 9:20 PM
You are quite wrong, Gene. Barring some specifically enumerated special duty, I absolutely do not, nor does any one else have any moral or legal obligation or duty whatsoever to render aid to anyone, period.

Legal no. Moral... well if you are so selfish that you don't find it an obligation to help those in need... well...

I guess you'll be ok with it while I stand over you and you bleed out?

-Gene

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 9:33 PM
Now Gene, you wouldn't do that to me, would you??? :43::43::43:

And I did not say that I would not render aid.. I said I have no moral or legal obligation to do so.

You do have a moral obligation to. You're just trying to claim its optional.

In point of fact, I'd argue that the ducking of the communities moral obligations has lead our society to look to government to try to fix things that should and could be better taken care of by the moral responsibilities that are being shirked.

Welfare was a classic example. Some folks need a hand because they are on hard times to no or little fault of their own. Then there was the guy who everyone knew deserved his impoverished fate. Taking those decisions further away from the community undermines the ability of the community to do the right thing.

Doctors have a moral obligation to try to help prevent accidental death or serious illness. I may not like it, but my doctor should comment on me being a few pound overweight. Preventing me from getting worse or possibly nudging me in the right direction is a good thing for me and mine and society.

Letting him have the power of the state is not good however.

-Gene

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 9:40 PM
You got me there...I absolutely do believe that morality should be optional.

And if you knew me, I guarantee you would judge me as usually exercising that option.

On this, reasonable men can easily disagree. You'd also find that there are a lot of "morals" that I tend to disagree with as well.

-Gene

ligamentum flavum
06-18-2007, 11:14 PM
I definitely understand what you are getting at. However, IMHO this should be absolutely unnecessary and is inimical to this nation's fundamental concepts of ordered liberty.

We have gone so much further than what you describe because of the increasing lack of the Darwinian principle that has occurred as a result of the Nanny State perpetually caring for the feeble minded. Our society should not be tailored around people who cannot, or will not embrace their own individual, sovereign responsibility to guide, guard and govern their own families and affairs. This is the currency of fools "...who are willing to give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety...(they) deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Occasionally, one must muster the courage to embrace the maxim set forth by Oliver Wendell Holmes in deciding the case of BUCK v. BELL, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) wherein he opined that "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=274&invol=200

believe me, as a physician who has had his bouts in patient v. Darwin, i've had my share of disgust. however, the medico-legal system and our sworn Hippocratic oath guides us to always try to do the best we can for our patients. the fact of the matter is, there is a set standard we must uphold or else we risk our licenses and at worst, patient lives. as such, a main part of pediatric care is "anticipatory guidance." that involves helping to identify and minimize risks at home/school/etc. because of the "studies" that have come out to vilify firearms, it's become common practice and a quasi "standard of care" if you will, to inquire about them and provide such anticipatory guidance. it's a touchy subject, similar to asking patients about sexual behavior/drug use/religion. it may infuriate, but it may also save a life.

hope this provides a bit more insight into us evil doctors. :chris:

10TH AMENDMENT
06-19-2007, 8:24 AM
I definitely understand what you are getting at. However, IMHO this should be absolutely unnecessary and is inimical to this nation's fundamental concepts of ordered liberty.

We have gone so much further than what you describe because of the increasing lack of the Darwinian principle that has occurred as a result of the Nanny State perpetually caring for the feeble minded. Our society should not be tailored around people who cannot, or will not embrace their own individual, sovereign responsibility to guide, guard and govern their own families and affairs. This is the currency of fools "...who are willing to give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety...(they) deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Occasionally, one must muster the courage to embrace the maxim set forth by Oliver Wendell Holmes in deciding the case of BUCK v. BELL, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) wherein he opined that "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=274&invol=200


believe me, as a physician who has had his bouts in patient v. Darwin, i've had my share of disgust. however, the medico-legal system and our sworn Hippocratic oath guides us to always try to do the best we can for our patients. the fact of the matter is, there is a set standard we must uphold or else we risk our licenses and at worst, patient lives. as such, a main part of pediatric care is "anticipatory guidance." that involves helping to identify and minimize risks at home/school/etc. because of the "studies" that have come out to vilify firearms, it's become common practice and a quasi "standard of care" if you will, to inquire about them and provide such anticipatory guidance. it's a touchy subject, similar to asking patients about sexual behavior/drug use/religion. it may infuriate, but it may also save a life.

hope this provides a bit more insight into us evil doctors. :chris:

I think you may have mistaken my reference to the Darwinian Principle as one of opposition. I not only agree with it, I implore you to stop overly interfering with it.

The whole society would be better off if you guys would stop interfering with natural selection and just let a little bit of Darwinism do its work. People die by misadventure, including little people. It's that simple. Old people die too when they are not subjected to astronomically expensive and unnecessary heroic medical intervention. It really is that simple. Just treat us for our diseases (in the case of adults, when we ask) and fix us when we break our bodily stuff. You are not our Mommy who makes sure we never fall down and skin our knees. The camel's nose under the tent seems to always come in the form of "if it only saves one life"...or, "it's for the scheeeeldrin". This is bad and generally motivated by the desire to seduce society into being controlled by some all knowing, benevolent power who knows best what is good for all of us, whether we like it or not. It's just like all of those well intentioned, albeit totally misguided Evangelical Christians who wrongly believe that their duty is to ensure that everybody gets saved and goes to heaven. I mean my God, even Jesus Himself said that very, very few people will ever enter the kingdom of God...and that He personally will sentence the grand majority of humankind to eternal damnation. I say, if it's good enough for Him, it's good enough for us!

You have no legitimate duty to ensure anything for us except to perform competently when we invite you to administer medical treatment to us. Of course that includes treating us under implied consent if we are unconscious victims of misfortune...or when we invite diagnostic medical check-ups. However, that does not include unsolicited intrusion into our private lives in order to "ensure" that we are behaving properly so as to preclude the possibility of us ever harming or killing ourselves.

Stop projecting yourselves as the benevolent protectorate who is compelled to interject yourselves into every aspect of our lives in order to preempt us from any and all possible harm. There is a natural order of things, and part of that natural order is a regular thinning of the human gene pool through accident, disease and misadventure. Your newly manufactured, "Johnny come lately" supposed duty of "anticipatory guidance" that involves helping to identify and minimize risks at home/school/etc is really not (and never legitimately has been) within the purview of your job. "Anticipatory guidance" is nothing more than "Newspeak" for the inimical concept of Big Brother...and I say "Big Brother" because the medical profession is certainly being progressively used by the utopian minded elitist social engineers as a quasi-governmental enforcement tool to compel society as a whole to submit and acquiesce to the obsessive control that is necessary for these elitist engineers to achieve their ends.

You are damaging the natural order of the human ecosystem by arrogating to yourselves the position of Supreme Benevolent Protector of us all.

Having said all of that, let me say that I still love you guys and have the highest degree of awe and respect for what you legitimately do for society as a whole!

ligamentum flavum
06-19-2007, 4:02 PM
My reference to the disgust I feel when I encounter the patient vs Darwin is because we are interfering with Darwinism. After admitting a patient with diabetic ketoacidosis for the 25th time this year because she'd rather use crack cocaine instead of insulin, it gets old fast. Or having to work on someone who is Life-flighted in because he was too macho to wear a helmet while motorcycling, give me a break!! We waste millions and millions of dollars in healthcare every year because of these patients.

But the fact remains, if we don't do anything while these patients are at our facility, then we become negligent. The salt in the wound is that the typical family these patients have seem to be waiting for that "lottery" of a "malpractice" suit. We do everything we can to help the patient so they can go home and do it all over again (unless we get the patients conserved, but that's another story).

Is it against Darwin to provide vaccinations or medication? Both weaken the gene pool, so to speak. Patients can refuse them if they want, just like they can refuse to answer questions regarding anticipatory guidance. Until the state medical board, the AMA and the American College of Pediatrics stops expecting "anticipatory guidance" or offering vaccinations, physicians will have to continue to offer it. Doing anything less may easily end a career.

Damn, why am I a doctor? At least it beats working at DOJ.

flooby
06-19-2007, 7:14 PM
I guess it also come down to a simple fact:

I'm not out on the street begging people to come into my office. However, if they do come into the office, they are going to get medical care set down by our various professional organizations. When you sit in my exam room, the expectation of privacy between a patient and doctor are much different. I will likely take the diaper off, undress the patient, etc...

What gets me are people that come to the doctor and don't want this or that. They yell and scream. I guess I can only come away saying one thing:

If you don't want medical care, don't come to my office. You have the right to bleed to death at home or die of pneumonia at home. However, if you come to my office or hospital, there is a standard of care I must provide, lest I risk my license as well as career. This also includes asking "Do you wear a helmet when you ride your bike?"

Oh, and by the way, someone that lets their 18 month toddler play with a loaded gun is a legally mandated reporting situation. It's called neglect.

Dont Tread on Me
06-19-2007, 8:14 PM
flooby - thanks again for letting us see the world from the perspective of a medical professional. It is really really helpful.

legally mandated reporting situation.

The degree to which the State has stepped into the doctor patient relationship bothers me. Not picking on your example, I'm talking in general.

lonewolf
06-20-2007, 4:58 PM
>>>

Sawku
06-22-2007, 9:30 PM
Love the discussion!

As you answer those office questionaires.......just remember that many Health Plans are changing over to electronic medical records......meaning easier access to data. I can drill down my 2000+ patient panel by blood pressure measurements....whether or not they have diabetes, or heart disease, smoking, etc.
I am sure household firearm ownership will never be a search criteria in these medical record programs...but I am throwing it out there for you paranoid types to fret about. Now off to work on another OLL build.

socalguns
06-23-2007, 12:34 AM
WHOSE DIME IS IT? Its like the mechanic asking while charging you, nuts.

Dr. Peter Venkman
06-23-2007, 11:46 PM
Now Gene, you wouldn't do that to me, would you??? :43::43::43:

And I did not say that I would not render aid...I said I have no moral or legal obligation to do so.

Somewhere in the Penal Code is listed an offense for failing to come to an officer's aid when asked.

Dont Tread on Me
06-25-2007, 5:44 PM
I got my revenge. Went to get blood test results today and left a couple of back issues of American Rifleman in the waiting room and his consultation room:-)

ligamentum flavum
06-25-2007, 10:38 PM
awesome. if i ever go into private practice, i'll have that in my waiting room too.

crunchy2k
06-26-2007, 3:25 AM
awesome. if i ever go into private practice, i'll have that in my waiting room too.

Remember to blackout the address space....It contains enough info to have u'r American Rifleman subscription stolen from you.

Dont Tread on Me
06-26-2007, 9:07 PM
Remember to blackout the address space....It contains enough info to have u'r American Rifleman subscription stolen from you.

If you see an American Rifleman with a little rectangle cut out in the bottom right hand corner at a doctors, then you know we have the same doctor:-)