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View Full Version : What if every person in America had a standerdized firearm?


surplus-addict
08-11-2012, 1:23 PM
I've been dreaming, and came up with the idea that if the U.S. somehow got back to its firearms and freedom roots (ergo no NFA or GCA), then maybe a citizen militia could be started.

But the question is: Would they all use a standard arm?

If you think back to the Revolution days, everybody had a musket or a muzzle loading rifle. The beauty in a musket or a rifle, is that they are both muzzleloaders, so you can jam whatever you want down the barrel. If your buddy to the right of you has the same caliber firearm, you can just borrow some of his lead musket balls. Everybody uses the same power, and everybody could use whatever rocks, nails, or shot that was next to them. If you had powder, you had ammo. Anything could be your projectile.

For an uprising of random people, the Revolution was probably the last battle in history where the citizenry had generally the same firearms. Everybody had a flintlock firearm, and that made logistics so much easier for everybody. All you had to get for your militiamen is lead and black powder.

If you look at most guerrilla wars today, it's just a ragtag group of people with random weapons, with magazines and rounds that don't interchange (if you take the AK out of equation). That really limits their fighting capability as a whole.

What if there was a militia today? What would they do for firearms? If every man in America had a standardized firearm, what would you suggest? I like the AR-15, especially since it is used by the military. But it is a little pricy for every person in the U.S., especially if they don't use it often. It also takes a fair amount of training to tell the truth.

Would a cheap, stamped subgun like the PPS-43 chambered in 9mm be a better choice? One could arm themselves with a full auto firearm, 4 magazines, 500 rounds, a magazine pouch, and cleaning kit for under $250. If we're talking a firearm that would be made in the millions for the populace, then this price wouldn't be unfeasible at all.


What gun would YOU choose as the standard militia firearm?

bloodhawke83
08-11-2012, 1:24 PM
1911

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Kyle1886
08-11-2012, 1:32 PM
What do you speculate any opposing force might have? Caliber/mm/?

Personally I don't care what firearm as long as ammo is plentiful, regardless of peace or conflict.

Respectfull,
Kyle

guns4life
08-11-2012, 1:37 PM
There is a militia, just about every state has thier own. For firearms we(CA Mil. Res.) borrow them from the National Guard. We are the state defense force, but just like every other soldier in every other service we can't take the weapons home.

Mr. Beretta
08-11-2012, 1:39 PM
Beretta 92FS of course!

surplus-addict
08-11-2012, 1:41 PM
There is a militia, just about every state has thier own. For firearms we(CA Mil. Res.) borrow them from the National Guard. We are the state defense force, but just like every other soldier in every other service we can't take the weapons home.

The National Guard isn't the militia. We the people, the average Joe, are the militia. That's what I'm getting at. The National Guard is basically the governors personal army used for state issues, and occasionally deployed to the middle east.

Capybara
08-11-2012, 2:49 PM
Aren't militias illegal in this state? Not that I agree with that and disagree with what you are proposing, but California basically bans everything.

Tenamaxtle
08-11-2012, 2:50 PM
Look for soemthing that will use the AR type magazines, i.e. Keltec SU-16

surplus-addict
08-11-2012, 3:00 PM
Aren't militias illegal in this state? Not that I agree with that and disagree with what you are proposing, but California basically bans everything.

Read the first part. I was talking about if the U.S. went back to its firearms roots, and got its balls back, not right now.

And as far as I know, there is noting illegal with a militia in this state. In any state for that matter.

surplus-addict
08-11-2012, 3:04 PM
Look for soemthing that will use the AR type magazines, i.e. Keltec SU-16

My dad just reminded me: the AR-180. It's stamped, so inexpensive. It takes AR-15 mags with a little bit of modification (the mags will then work in AR's And AR-180's) to the mag, and it's a rifle. It's chambered in 5.56, it's reliable.... Basically perfect for this use.

Here's a pic:
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o623/surplus-addict/ar180-1-c.jpg

Here's some info and pictures. http://50ae.net/collection/ar180/

mrdd
08-11-2012, 3:33 PM
My dad just reminded me: the AR-180. It's stamped, so inexpensive. It takes AR-15 mags with a little bit of modification (the mags will then work in AR's And AR-180's) to the mag, and it's a rifle. It's chambered in 5.56, it's reliable.... Basically perfect for this use.

Here's a pic:
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o623/surplus-addict/ar180-1-c.jpg

Here's some info and pictures. http://50ae.net/collection/ar180/

AR-180 is a named AW in the state.

Capybara
08-11-2012, 4:24 PM
Oh, come on, you know that once Senator Yee and his SB249 get smacked down, the AW will be defeated.

surplus-addict
08-11-2012, 4:30 PM
AR-180 is a named AW in the state.

Hence me saying in the OP that this would only happen if we got off of our butts and got our balls back, and went back to out firearms roots and repealed the NFA and GCA. If the NFA was gone, then I guarantee you, there would be no state firearms laws ;)

wjc
08-11-2012, 5:39 PM
I could afford any number of types of rifles but I'd still want my M1A/M14.

This wouldn't fit your scenario as it's an "obsolete" battle rifle and not a current model.

Nothing wrong with the modern stuff but I prefer my choice.

aklon
08-11-2012, 6:14 PM
I've always thought that when you turn 21, the government should give you and M1 Garand and 500 rounds.

guns4life
08-11-2012, 7:38 PM
The National Guard isn't the militia. We the people, the average Joe, are the militia. That's what I'm getting at. The National Guard is basically the governors personal army used for state issues, and occasionally deployed to the middle east.

We are not the National Guard, we are the state defense force, the official militia(by definition) of this state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Military_Reserve

MrOrange
08-11-2012, 7:44 PM
I would say we do have a standardized firearm, the AR platform. Widely popular, and while it costs more than a Kel-Tec, it's not prohibitively expensive for anyone. Not just as a practical matter, it's also in the spirit of the militia that the citizenry should have small arms similar to the military.

Whatever the platform, it should be in 5.56mm to take advantage of all them rounds in circulation and being produced.





I've always thought that when you turn 21, the government should give you and M1 Garand and 500 rounds.

I always thought there should be a modern firearms ed in high schools like there used to be a rifle team at every high school in the country. Only students with C average or better and no criminal background, of course! Then when they graduate they get issued an M9 and a box of ammo. Polite society and all that.




And really, all them posts and nobody's going to call out "standerdized"?:)

SilverTauron
08-11-2012, 8:54 PM
I've been dreaming, and came up with the idea that if the U.S. somehow got back to its firearms and freedom roots (ergo no NFA or GCA), then maybe a citizen militia could be started.

But the question is: Would they all use a standard arm?



No.Ill explain why below:



If you think back to the Revolution days, everybody had a musket or a muzzle loading rifle. The beauty in a musket or a rifle, is that they are both muzzleloaders, so you can jam whatever you want down the barrel. If your buddy to the right of you has the same caliber firearm, you can just borrow some of his lead musket balls. Everybody uses the same power, and everybody could use whatever rocks, nails, or shot that was next to them. If you had powder, you had ammo. Anything could be your projectile.

For an uprising of random people, the Revolution was probably the last battle in history where the citizenry had generally the same firearms. Everybody had a flintlock firearm, and that made logistics so much easier for everybody. All you had to get for your militiamen is lead and black powder.


Fortunately, firearm fabrication and design techniques have advanced greatly in the past 300 odd years.Back in the 18th Century making a functional long arm was a major accomplishment, to say nothing about grips or user ergonomics.


If you look at most guerrilla wars today, it's just a ragtag group of people with random weapons, with magazines and rounds that don't interchange (if you take the AK out of equation). That really limits their fighting capability as a whole.

What if there was a militia today? What would they do for firearms? If every man in America had a standardized firearm, what would you suggest? I like the AR-15, especially since it is used by the military. But it is a little pricy for every person in the U.S., especially if they don't use it often. It also takes a fair amount of training to tell the truth.

In point of fact, most guerilla wars are fought with an assortment of weapons. It is true the Kalashnikov pattern rifles are popular due to cost and reliability, but the FN FALs and G3s get in the mix too, alongside older bolt action rifles and such. Before China and Russia got involved with the Vietnam war,the Vietnamese guerrillas were using bolt guns and WWII leftovers.


The basic point about long arms is that while technology and gear matter, it is training and tactics which make or break an armed organizations' effectiveness. A group of 10 combatant shooters with 5 AK's , a FAL, A Galil, two SKS's, and a bolt-action who put each round where they aim are going to be much more deadly than 100 guys spraying and praying with the latest in standardized gear.




Would a cheap, stamped subgun like the PPS-43 chambered in 9mm be a better choice? One could arm themselves with a full auto firearm, 4 magazines, 500 rounds, a magazine pouch, and cleaning kit for under $250. If we're talking a firearm that would be made in the millions for the populace, then this price wouldn't be unfeasible at all.


What gun would YOU choose as the standard militia firearm?

Above I said NO to the idea of a standard arm. Ill explain that perspective further.

We live in a technological age where there are enough of a variety of arms to suit everyone's physical capabilities. Note carefully that not everyone has the same hands, the same build, or the same tolerance for recoil. In the 1700's you were lucky to get a long arm that worked. Today, shooters of all shapes and sizes can find guns which fit them-and for accuracy, this is a critical factor which "standardization" ignores.

Large forces standardize because it makes their logistics system easier. An army has limited space and time to transport their warfighting gear, which means if the US military allowed the kind of choices Special Ops units have, the logistics system would collapse in flames .

There's only so much room on a C-17 Cargo plane, and it goes away real fast if you need combat ready crates of 9x19,.45ACP, 10mm, 9x18 Makaraov, .40 S&W and so on. With one pistol/rifle type , that cuts down on the spare parts , personell, and gear you need to cart with you into a battle zone.

For a militia, since they're operating in place logistics is less of a concern. Rather,A militia should focus on exemplary accuracy with the weapons they have, instead of emulating the mistakes of the organized opposition .An army with standardized equipment is intentionally handicapping its combat effectiveness in exchange for an easier logistics setup.