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View Full Version : Range Report, help me get better!


Aces and 8s
08-11-2012, 1:29 PM
So I took my 4 pistols out to the range this morning. Definitely not a beginner shooter, but there is plenty of room for skill improvement. Brought out my Charles Daly 1911, Taurus M65, Glock 22, and Springfield XD9. My groupings are ok, but I am not sure what I may be doing wrong and would like some pointers and things I should work on from the experienced here at calguns! Anything I can improve on to get my groupings tighter would be great. For some reason I shot like crap with my Glock today. All suggestions and critiques welcome, good or bad.

All targets were about 10 yards out. Between 25-30 rounds each.

Charles Daly 1911 (.45)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/teamxballer/IMAG0465.jpg

Taurus M65 (.357)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/teamxballer/IMAG0466.jpg

Glock 22 (.40)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/teamxballer/IMAG0467.jpg

Springfield XD9 (9mm)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/teamxballer/IMAG0468.jpg

CK_32
08-11-2012, 1:37 PM
Well for one those groups aren't horrid.. And you probably just had a bad day but again they could be a lot worse..

Another thing is suggest if your really trying to shrink the groups stick to one firearm and concentrate on the fundamental basics.. But switching gun to gun probably isn't helping.

My $.02

huckberry668
08-11-2012, 2:02 PM
these 10-yard groups aren't too bad assuming all your shots landed on the target shown. They all group fairly center which means you have most of the fundamentals down. 40SW isn't an easy caliber to shoot well in a light weight gun like G22 so don't be discouraged. Just need a lot more trigger control is all. you may be shooting a little too fast. If you aim small you'll group small.

there is a phenomenon I call the 'live round syndrome'. Whenever the chamber is loaded the shooter tend to forget the fundamentals. I tell all those I coach to 'make every shot count'. which really means to shoot slowly and make sure you don't fire a round without going thru the fundamentals.

Bottom-up approach. Pay attention to and repeat this for every shot:

1. Stance - same exact comfortable, natural & supportive stance. legs, torso, arms, shoulder, neck tension.
2. Grip - same exact purchase, grip pressure, finger position.
3. Sights - same exact front sight focus, front/rear sights alignment, sight picture (sight alignment on target).
4. Trigger control - finger pressure and leverage (squeeze directly back).
5. Follow-thru - Keep holding the gun like you did before it went off. let the recoil take its natural course and don't fight it.

If you focus on all 5 above, you should be able to keep your eyes open and see the last sight picture and muzzle flash. And you'll be able to 'call your shots' and tell where it landed. It is easier said than done and that's why there not many good shots.

Blackhawk556
08-11-2012, 2:15 PM
I've posted this video when ever people ask this question. This video really helped me improve my shooting no joke. http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c

Aces and 8s
08-11-2012, 2:26 PM
these 10-yard groups aren't too bad assuming all your shots landed on the target shown. They all group fairly center which means you have most of the fundamentals down. 40SW isn't an easy caliber to shoot well in a light weight gun like G22 so don't be discouraged. Just need a lot more trigger control is all. you may be shooting a little too fast. If you aim small you'll group small.

there is a phenomenon I call the 'live round syndrome'. Whenever the chamber is loaded the shooter tend to forget the fundamentals. I tell all those I coach to 'make every shot count'. which really means to shoot slowly and make sure you don't fire a round without going thru the fundamentals.

Bottom-up approach. Pay attention to and repeat this for every shot:

1. Stance - same exact comfortable, natural & supportive stance. legs, torso, arms, shoulder, neck tension.
2. Grip - same exact purchase, grip pressure, finger position.
3. Sights - same exact front sight focus, front/rear sights alignment, sight picture (sight alignment on target).
4. Trigger control - finger pressure and leverage (squeeze directly back).
5. Follow-thru - Keep holding the gun like you did before it went off. let the recoil take its natural course and don't fight it.

If you focus on all 5 above, you should be able to keep your eyes open and see the last sight picture and muzzle flash. And you'll be able to 'call your shots' and tell where it landed. It is easier said than done and that's why there not many good shots.

Lots of good advice there, thanks! I do tend to get overly excited and shoot a bit too fast. I try to take a breate, exhale, then hold before every shot. I'll keep your tips in mind next time out.

Blackhawk, The video link posted didnt work for some reason.

CK_32, your .02 makes plenty of sense. I just find I can't abide by it, I love all my pistols and they each need to be fondled equally. Haha

Mr.1904
08-11-2012, 2:47 PM
Good shooting bud. I'd suggest slowing down and focusing on your trigger pull. Consistent, even, solid push straight back. And for the Glock work on your trigger reset. It'll help

My .02

dem0critus
08-11-2012, 2:55 PM
Dude, those groups aren't bad at all. Like others have said focusing on the trigger pull is really what makes the difference. Dry firing drills will help a lot too. I practice by aiming at a point, and trying to get the least possible movement out of the sights while breaking the trigger. If the front sight shakes at all when you're pulling the trigger that's going to effect your shot.

kb58
08-11-2012, 3:23 PM
What really worked for me (read: pointed out the problem) was to have someone load a bunch of dummy rounds into the mag without you knowing where they were in the stack. Not knowing whether the next round is live or not quickly reveals whether or not you're anticipating the shot and flinching.

My targets tend to look like your second one, all of them biased left. The most memorable shot was when I just "decided" that the next round in the chamber was a dude and honestly didn't expect it to fire - it hit dead center. However, when I knew the round was live I'd always pull it to the left - a habit that's proving hard to cure.

(If no one's around to load dummy rounds, a laser works nearly as well to show where you're pointing. Every time I'd approach where I knew the hammer was about to drop, that darn little spot on the target would start flinching to the left... Like I said, it's been hard to cure.)

Aces and 8s
08-11-2012, 3:40 PM
Hmm, that's interesting. How does one cure the flinching to the left.

scglock
08-11-2012, 3:45 PM
It's all about fundamentals and lots of practice.

HighLander51
08-11-2012, 3:51 PM
You need a video of you shooting to diagnose anything. It starts with the fundamentals, stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. If you really want to improve you need to take shooting lessons. Find your nearest USPSA or IDPA club, they generally have shooting lessons. In the meantime, watch one of the greatest shooters on the planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

sammy
08-11-2012, 3:53 PM
You can watch a video or listen to posters here but nothing helps more than one on one training.

Where are you located? Many nice guys here willing to help.

I shoot at USI in Concord. If you are willing to come out we can get your groups cut in half or better in one afternoon.

PM if interested,

Sammy

TKM
08-11-2012, 4:24 PM
You are going to drive yourself nuts trying to master four pistols at once.

Aces and 8s
08-11-2012, 4:26 PM
You can watch a video or listen to posters here but nothing helps more than one on one training.

Where are you located? Many nice guys here willing to help.

I shoot at USI in Concord. If you are willing to come out we can get your groups cut in half or better in one afternoon.

PM if interested,

Sammy

I'm in Simi Valley. Not sure where Concord is. Lol

kb58
08-11-2012, 4:29 PM
I'm in Simi Valley. Not sure where Concord is. Lol
San Francisco area.

ChaneRZ
08-11-2012, 4:52 PM
Not even. It is in Contra Costa County.

9mmepiphany
08-11-2012, 6:24 PM
Are you using the same POA thoughtout each group?
Which grip are you using?
Are you shooting the Taurus M65, in DA or SA?

I looks like you are varying your grip pressure as you are pulling the trigger.

I'd suggest shooting smaller groups, 3-5 shots, to give us a better idea of shot consistency. Maybe a sheet with 5 targets, shooting 3-5 shots on each...try shooting at 1" squares

Nippy
08-11-2012, 6:41 PM
The main thing you need to work on is trigger control judging from the groups with your Glock and comparing it to the groups with your 1911. So dry fire one handed would be my suggestion.

jessegpresley
08-11-2012, 8:01 PM
Shoot slower. Concentrate on not flinching. Dry fire a bunch before loading the gun and shooting. Buy one of the big silhouette targets, flip it over, and draw a bunch of 1" round dots. Use these as targets. You don't need to fully charge your mag, just put in say 5 rounds. Put 5 rounds into each 1" dot. It's easier to see what you're doing wrong this way and correcting on the fly than dumping a bunch of rounds into a single target.

jlbflyboy172
08-11-2012, 8:54 PM
+1 for dry fire practice. It's free and if you practice 10 minutes a day, you will see huge results. Many people that I watch shoot tend to grip the pistol (meaning squeezing harder with the trigger pull) and squeeze the trigger at the same time. In your dry fire practice hold on a fixed point and make sure that nothing else moves in your hand but your trigger finger from the middle joint down to the tip of your finger. That is all that is required.

BLR81
08-12-2012, 2:09 AM
Four different guns, four different ammo's and four different results, does this come as a surprise to anyone? Unless your some type of professional shooter, I think what were seeing is the result of 4 different grips and 4 different triggers. I think the answer is to get as proficient with one before you try to get the others where you like them.

Just a wild *** guess, but the 9mm was the most accurate and the .357 and .40 were more wild with a lot of low left. Unless you were shooting double taps, I'm going to guess the the recoil of those two weapons has you flinching. The 1911 has no high shots, with most on center and a small group low left. I'd guess that you feel comfortable with the grip and trigger of the 1911 more so than the other 3.

I'm probably all wet, but you ask and based on those targets, that would be my guess.

Aces and 8s
08-12-2012, 10:05 AM
Are you using the same POA thoughtout each group?
Which grip are you using?
Are you shooting the Taurus M65, in DA or SA?

I looks like you are varying your grip pressure as you are pulling the trigger.

I'd suggest shooting smaller groups, 3-5 shots, to give us a better idea of shot consistency. Maybe a sheet with 5 targets, shooting 3-5 shots on each...try shooting at 1" squares

Same sight picture, thumbs forward grip, SA for the .357. I only shoot five rounds each time, but I think the idea of shooting different targets each 5 rounds would give a better idea. I'll give that a shot next time out as well.

9mmepiphany
08-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Please do.

The only constant I'm seeing is it looks like you are anticipating the trigger break with all the guns

ZX-10R
08-12-2012, 2:56 PM
The Glock is the grip...The 1911 is you. THe others I cannot say.

Aces and 8s
08-12-2012, 3:03 PM
The Glock is the grip...The 1911 is you. THe others I cannot say.

:rolleyes: glock hater lol

USM0083
08-12-2012, 3:20 PM
Your groups look okay for 10 yards:

With the G22, a little bit of jerking/anticipation.

With the revolver, your support hand needs to firm up, maybe take a revolver grip with the support thumb locking over the shooting hand thumb (you are right handed?)

Assuming your sights are on, trigger control is the key here. Straight back trigger press is what you want. Proper grip can help this, but you can have a sucky grip and still get good shots off. What a poor grip prevents you from doing is getting subsequent shoots off effectively AND quickly.

As others have mentioned, work on mastering ONE of these guns, first. Do it at 7 yards. Whatever group you shoot, try to make it smaller, say 2" at 7 yards. When you can do that, try doing it faster (1 shot a sec. or 2 shots in 3 sec.). If you master that, push back your distance.

One of the best tools I ever bought was a shot timer.

kurby09
08-12-2012, 3:57 PM
Lots of good advice here. One other thing ive been practicing Is learning how to shoot right at the pause of every breath. Its helped me improve my groupings a lot and the consistency of my shots.

Army
08-12-2012, 5:01 PM
Quit looking at the target.

Front sight focus all the way through the shot. The only time you need to look at the target, is to see where ALL the shots went after the gun empties.

Proper hold. Sight alignment. Front sight focus. Add pressure until trigger breaks. Release trigger ONLY far enough to reset on sear. Remain focused on front sight. Repeat as necessary.

HighLander51
08-12-2012, 5:12 PM
Lots of good advice here. One other thing ive been practicing Is learning how to shoot right at the pause of every breath. Its helped me improve my groupings a lot and the consistency of my shots.

That's for long range rifle, with a handgun it's grip it and rip it.

Does this guy look like he is breathing? Or even close to squeezing the trigger?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dstFMC3UqM0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0NjH3xiC0k&feature=related

boomer135
08-12-2012, 8:02 PM
1. Stance - same exact comfortable, natural & supportive stance. legs, torso, arms, shoulder, neck tension.
2. Grip - same exact purchase, grip pressure, finger position.
3. Sights - same exact front sight focus, front/rear sights alignment, sight picture (sight alignment on target).
4. Trigger control - finger pressure and leverage (squeeze directly back).
5. Follow-thru - Keep holding the gun like you did before it went off. let the recoil take its natural course and don't fight it.

If you focus on all 5 above, you should be able to keep your eyes open and see the last sight picture and muzzle flash. And you'll be able to 'call your shots' and tell where it landed. It is easier said than done and that's why there not many good shots.

good advice above, would like to add a few things, when I am teaching someone to become a more proficient shooter, I only let them load 3 rounds, until they begin grouping these, then I step them to 5 and so on. This will slow you down to concentrate on your fundamentals.

With the pistols you described you should be grouping much better than you are. (Honestly) Yes you are shooting center mass and still hitting your target, but focus more on the above, SLOW down , and don't force a shot! During you squeeze if it doesn't feel right, start straying off target, or flinching, then stop. adjust and begin again.

I actually have to grip my Glocks with more finger in the trigger, than my 1911's. Get to know your firearms...

Aces and 8s
08-12-2012, 9:04 PM
Thank you everyone, its much appreciated. Aside from my grandfather taking me out a few times in my teens, I am mostly self taught and always look for pointers and tips to improve my fundamentals.

Stoner
08-12-2012, 10:07 PM
Couple ideas. Turn your target to the plain paper side. Use a 1" Orange dot to narrow your point of aim. (with black sights and a black target the perfect sight picture is hard to see, with a white target you have better contrast to confirm your sight picture). Also use a 6 oclock hold on the dot to further refine your sight picture.

Focus on your front sight squeeze the trigger and keep it depressed to the rear for a couple seconds prior to reset. (follow through)

The second idea is to ramdomly load snap caps in your mags. They will chamber and you will not know when there is a dummy round in the chamber. If you have a problem with a flinch, it will be very apparent and you will be able to work on it..

Just some basic ideas.

pc_load_letter
08-12-2012, 10:26 PM
I had an epiphany today when shooting. I was all over the place. Some groups were good but for the most part, bad.

I remember what Stan at TASC said, 40 percent on the grip with 60% on the support hand. Once I relaxed my grip on the strong hand, and firmed up the grip on my support hand, things got much much better!

tbc
08-13-2012, 8:37 PM
Read this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=523853&highlight=bullseye

It worked for me. By studying this thread, I have significantly improved. From 7 to 10 yards, I can easily and consistently achieve a 3-inch group with any pistol.

ryan1911
08-14-2012, 6:51 AM
Do not over-grip the pistol, relax let recoil happen, do not fight the recoil. Good sight alignment, good trigger control, surprise break = good shot.