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View Full Version : If SB249 passes and police are at my door...


Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 5:25 PM
What do I do? Or the question should be, "What SHOULD I do?"

Serious question now. Me and my gun owner buddies have came up with...

1. Don't answer the door if it's a cop in uniform
2. Tip toe quietly to the door and look in the peak hole and tip toe backwards quietly

3. Speed dial Wayne LaPierre
4. Answer the door and explain our constitutional right and then shut the door and lock it.
5. From within your garage, drive straight through your garage door and head for Nevada
6. Anne Frank it out and hide quietly in the attic

Please, everyone... I need to hear your answers

JUST in case this happens

Rock6.3
08-09-2012, 5:27 PM
It's fun to deal with hypothetical questions when you have nothing else to do with your time.

It's more valuable to fight bad legislation and keep it from becoming law.

IF we loose, then we move to the courts.


Dealing with the hypothetical can wait until this bill is close to its effective date.

redcliff
08-09-2012, 5:38 PM
Ask them for a copy of their search warrant. If they don't have one tell them to have a nice day and close the door.

Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 5:39 PM
No really, it is a serious question.

I'm just curious what would really happen. To actually imagine police carrying out rifles from my home just seems very disturbing and violating.

I've opposed the bill on stopsb249.org, what else can I possibly do? Do I have to go to special meetings or something?

Sorry, I'm not very politics savvy.

adampolo13
08-09-2012, 5:40 PM
Hand them the Bullet Button that used to be on your AR. :cool2:

Rock6.3
08-09-2012, 5:41 PM
Serious answer: If the police are at your door you have done something to get their attention. That something was an error that you need to prevent.

Think about it, do you own the biggest pile of guns of anyone you know?
If not, then those guys will be visited before you will, thus you will have plenty of advance warning.

Agent Orange
08-09-2012, 5:42 PM
...No really, it is a serious question...

Really? Were those serious answers you gave for examples? Wtf?

Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 5:43 PM
Ask them for a copy of their search warrant. If they don't have one tell them to have a nice day and close the door.

What if they do have a search warrant(IDK why they would though)? Or what if they use force when I try to close the door?

Is that the hour my firearms would be taken?

Rock6.3
08-09-2012, 5:46 PM
What if they do have a search warrant(IDK why they would though)? Or what if they use force when I try to close the door?

Is that the hour my firearms would be taken?

No, that's the second that a knee will be pressed into the back of your neck for resisting.

And then you get to decide what you will say when they ask for the combo to your gun safe.

See how much easier it is to avoid doing that 'thing' that got you noticed?

anymoose
08-09-2012, 5:48 PM
you give them your guns, youll get them back in 2 weeks anyway.

Wiz-of-Awd
08-09-2012, 5:50 PM
Ask them for a copy of their search warrant. If they don't have one tell them to have a nice day and close the door.

This.

A.W.D.

JTROKS
08-09-2012, 5:50 PM
Hand them the Bullet Button that used to be on your AR. :cool2:

LoL! Exactly what I would do or just the cap off my CAL15-BS. I have one RAW and a few uppers for it. The OLLs are what they are, just stripped OLLs - I dont see those in the ban list. My Stag 6 will have a paddle in lieu of the pistol grip. They can search all they want as long as they have a warrant and present it properly.

Farrier-1
08-09-2012, 5:53 PM
Why does this thread remind me of a reality show? :D

Enough already!

Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 5:57 PM
Serious answer: If the police are at your door you have done something to get their attention. That something was an error that you need to prevent.

Think about it, do you own the biggest pile of guns of anyone you know?
If not, then those guys will be visited before you will, thus you will have plenty of advance warning.

Yes, out of all my gun buddies I do own the most. But then again I don't consider my collection that big compared to other gun owners. Most of them are Mosin Nagants.

What kind of 'plenty of advanced warnings' would I get? All my firearms were legally obtained. Would I get a message in the mail, etc?

It would be easy for a police officer to be at my door or even in front of my house. Lots of times they park right in front of my house across the street and they catch people who are running the stop signs at the intersection.

I remember one saturday morning as i was packing my truck to go to the range their was a police car waiting for the stop sign violators. I was carrying my double rifle case and 2 other rifle cases and ammo. I thought it was weird but kind of funny. Because what if he asked what I was carrying? this and that

vantec08
08-09-2012, 5:58 PM
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss152/vantec08/warrant.jpg

Rock6.3
08-09-2012, 6:00 PM
Yes, out of all my gun buddies I do own the most. But then again I don't consider my collection that big compared to other gun owners. Most of them are Mosin Nagants.

What kind of 'plenty of advanced warnings' would I get? All my firearms were legally obtained. Would I get a message in the mail, etc?

It would be easy for a police officer to be at my door or even in front of my house. Lots of times they park right in front of my house across the street and they catch people who are running the stop signs at the intersection.

I remember one saturday morning as i was packing my truck to go to the range their was a police car waiting for the stop sign violators. I was carrying my double rifle case and 2 other rifle cases and ammo. I thought it was weird but kind of funny. Because what if he asked what I was carrying? this and that

It's too late for you to do anything, you are on their radar, they will probably come for you first. They may be watching your house right now.....

The good news is that you will be the warning for the rest of us.

pc_load_letter
08-09-2012, 6:00 PM
No hablo ingles, solamente espanol

Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 6:03 PM
See how much easier it is to avoid doing that 'thing' that got you noticed?[/QUOTE]

That 'thing' that got me noticed was packing my vehicle to go to the shooting range.

223556
08-09-2012, 6:04 PM
This is interesting...

adampolo13
08-09-2012, 6:09 PM
seeing what looks like "gun cases" is not enough probable cause for them to enter your house. Be polite and let them know you will not talk to them without a lawyer pressent.

Casual_Shooter
08-09-2012, 6:11 PM
Boating........... accident...........

Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 6:17 PM
What would be probable causes?

tiechshlime
08-09-2012, 6:28 PM
seeing you carrying gun cases to your truck

Mr. Gillious
08-09-2012, 6:31 PM
...so I have to wait till they go away? lol

pretty much right??

Jason P
08-09-2012, 6:31 PM
Dude, seriously, let it go. You alone have to be your ally and conscientious objector. Make smart decisions based on your goals, and be prepared to sacrifice something or possibly everything depending on what choices you make and what your goals ultimately are.

Sorry for not giving you a real answer to this, but the reality is that no one is probably going to. In this hypothetical scenario, you have very limited choices. Anyone who has taken more than a few hours to really educate themselves and think about things knows what those choices are.

So we all know the choices, we all know we have to choose for ourselves, and we all know we wouldn't wish that unfortunate choice on anyone else. So how can anyone tell you what you should do when most will be making that decision right about the time they hear the doorbell and look out the window.

Circumstances and goals determine decisions, not people on the internet.

sreiter
08-09-2012, 6:38 PM
tell them to "say jello to my litt-al frien"

just kidding

hefedehefe
08-09-2012, 6:43 PM
MonsterMan Grips?

frankm
08-09-2012, 6:46 PM
If they have a warrant, give them the broken old shotgun you keep for HD. Do not give them the location of your real firearms.

Ron-Solo
08-09-2012, 6:46 PM
You need more of these.....

:TFH:

Until a final law is passed, no one knows what it will really mean.

wurger
08-09-2012, 6:59 PM
How many beers did you and your "gun buddies" have before this question came up?

If SB249 passes, the police won't be at your door. Unless you voluntarily registered your rifles, they don't even know you have them (in theory anyway).

First course of action would be to open the door and find out why the police are there.

If they want your guns, give them up and work it out in court. Unless you think it would be cool to bleed out in your living room.

five.five-six
08-09-2012, 7:03 PM
first off, if SB249 passes, I recommend compliance with the law.

safewaysecurity
08-09-2012, 7:16 PM
Police need to be afraid of enforcing a law like this. That way they will lobby against having it passed. Moat of us are pretty much 100% law abiding citizens, but come for our guns and it's not going to be pretty. I feel like if this law passes there will be violence that wouldn't have otherwise been initiated if the law didn't pass. Let's just hope it doesn't pass. And I'd it does pass lets hope the courts swiftly issue an injunction against its implementation.

SVT-40
08-09-2012, 7:22 PM
This is interesting...

No, this is stupid!!!:p

SVT-40
08-09-2012, 7:28 PM
Police need to be afraid of enforcing a law like this. That way they will lobby against having it passed. Moat of us are pretty much 100% law abiding citizens, but come for our guns and it's not going to be pretty. I feel like if this law passes there will be violence that wouldn't have otherwise been initiated if the law didn't pass. Let's just hope it doesn't pass. And I'd it does pass lets hope the courts swiftly issue an injunction against its implementation.

Far to much "feeling" going into the post here and not much real thought.

Heck back in the day when California outlawed SKS rifles with detachable mags there was no blood in the street and no police officers were knocking on doors. Same with the original AW laws

First off "if" this law were to pass in all likelihood there would be a registration period just like when the first "assault" weapons law passed. The only time LEO's really come into contact with folks with weapons is when enforcing other laws.

So the blood in the street hype is just a bunch of BS.

safewaysecurity
08-09-2012, 7:35 PM
I didn't say blood in the streets.

m1a1driver
08-09-2012, 7:36 PM
just take the bullet buttons off, and seperate the uppers from the lowers and you'll be good. No constructive posession for AW's. with the AK you just take off bullet button, remove bolt and carrier and whamo! you're good to go.

EM2
08-09-2012, 7:45 PM
No really, it is a serious question.

I'm just curious what would really happen. To actually imagine police carrying out rifles from my home just seems very disturbing and violating.

I've opposed the bill on stopsb249.org, what else can I possibly do? Do I have to go to special meetings or something?

Sorry, I'm not very politics savvy.



This is what happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M





.

thrasherfox
08-09-2012, 7:50 PM
Whats that saying? "from my cold dead hands"

I am not too concerned. Have a relative in the LAPD. Alot of LEO's down there have discussed this, most are avid firearm owners. lets just say they would be placed in a bad position and a lot of departments expect over half of their force to turn in resignation paperwork.

At least from what I have heard from departments down south and in the central valley.

One Sherrif I heard actualy said he would not send his men and women to their death.

It seems the politicians who wont activley be putting their lives on the lines are the only ones that do not see the seriousness of this. they can pass a bill and go home to their families and have a nice dinner while other people risk their lives to try and enforce something that is constitutionally wrong.

jeep7081
08-09-2012, 7:50 PM
Had a customer call. I guess he came from shooting. Neighbor saw he had a AR15 and thought it was illegal. So, they called the local PD. They showed up, asked to seee the rifle to make sure it was legal. He said no. Come back with a warrant. They left two uniformed officers at his door. They left, 2 hrs later returned with a warrant! He called his lawyer. Lawyer was present. He showed them the AR15 with 10rd mag, and bullet button. Nothing happen. In this situation, wasn't that simple (just close the door). This happen recently in central California.

Watch this video. Your answer is there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

five.five-six
08-09-2012, 8:06 PM
Had a customer call. I guess he came from shooting. Neighbor saw he had a AR15 and thought it was illegal. So, they called the local PD. They showed up, asked to seee the rifle to make sure it was legal. He said no. Come back with a warrant. They left two uniformed officers at his door. They left, 2 hrs later returned with a warrant! He called his lawyer. Lawyer was present. He showed them the AR15 with 10rd mag, and bullet button. Nothing happen. In this situation, wasn't that simple (just close the door). This happen recently in central California.

Watch this video. Your answer is there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

how did they get a warrent?

Wiz-of-Awd
08-09-2012, 8:16 PM
Had a customer call. I guess he came from shooting. Neighbor saw he had a AR15 and thought it was illegal. So, they called the local PD. They showed up, asked to seee the rifle to make sure it was legal. He said no. Come back with a warrant. They left two uniformed officers at his door. They left, 2 hrs later returned with a warrant! He called his lawyer. Lawyer was present. He showed them the AR15 with 10rd mag, and bullet button. Nothing happen. In this situation, wasn't that simple (just close the door). This happen recently in central California.

Watch this video. Your answer is there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

This about neighbors sometimes, you just don't know what all of them think about guns...

Mine are always cased - to and from the car. My guns are none of their business or concern, so I do what I can to keep it that way.

A.W.D.

huntercf
08-09-2012, 8:33 PM
Tell them you are an illegal alien and you went to high school, they will be forced to leave you alone.
Seriously, wait to see if it passes and then what comes down the pike from the AG and the state and if the impending lawsuits get a stay of execution. If it does end up going through and the deadline looms with no stay then I am sure there will be a thread (or three) on what to do.

repubconserv
08-09-2012, 8:35 PM
You need more of these.....

:TFH:

Until a final law is passed, no one knows what it will really mean.

Logic I would listen to (and do)

louisianagirl
08-09-2012, 9:33 PM
i don't think they will come for your guns. but when they come for our guns is when we will need them.

frankm
08-09-2012, 11:18 PM
first off, if SB249 passes, I recommend compliance with the law.

Years before the wall fell, the Eastern Europeans just decided to do what they wanted irregardless of the commies. They just ignored government regulations, etc. A Pole told me that they just stopped caring what the government said and did. Sure, some of them went to jail, but most did not. A government cannot rule without consent of the governed.

speeedracerr
08-09-2012, 11:26 PM
In all honesty, I highly doubt that L.E. will show up to your door... Just too much spent resources to figure out how many thousands of gun owners have such rifles.

When purchasing a long arm, they don't know if you have a safe full of shotguns for duck hunting or pee shooters for plinking.

When you DROS, you just dros'ed a long arm NOT an AR or AK or whatever "so called" assault weapon there is.

My opinion... Lets wait until the dust settles for clarity.

Brown Rock
08-10-2012, 12:38 AM
just take the bullet buttons off, and seperate the uppers from the lowers and you'll be good. No constructive posession for AW's.

Do I need to remove the collapsible stock and pistol grip too?

Rockit
08-10-2012, 2:08 AM
We, yes I'm LEO, are WAY to busy.
We won't be knocking on your door.
Stay quiet until the stupidity is repealed/fixed. Then hit the range.

luckystrike
08-10-2012, 2:08 AM
just take the bullet buttons off, and seperate the uppers from the lowers and you'll be good. No constructive posession for AW's. with the AK you just take off bullet button, remove bolt and carrier and whamo! you're good to go.

AK pattern with no bb and carrier pulled out is good to go forsure?

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 2:25 AM
What do I do? Or the question should be, "What SHOULD I do?"

Serious question now. Me and my gun owner buddies have came up with...

1. Don't answer the door if it's a cop in uniform
2. Tip toe quietly to the door and look in the peak hole and tip toe backwards quietly

3. Speed dial Wayne LaPierre
4. Answer the door and explain our constitutional right and then shut the door and lock it.
5. From within your garage, drive straight through your garage door and head for Nevada
6. Anne Frank it out and hide quietly in the attic

Please, everyone... I need to hear your answers

JUST in case this happens

If that actually happened I would do the following:

* I wouldn't answer the door.

* Once the coast was very clear I would remove the stripped lower receivers from my previously disassembled firearms whose legality was in question by some from my home to a place that only I know about.

* If the LEO returned I would answer the door by walking around the side of my (locked) house from the back. No warrant, no entry for LEO.

* If he returned again with a search warrant I would say I forgot what happened to the receivers. Maybe they were lost, stolen or destroyed?

rogervzv
08-10-2012, 2:37 AM
Ask them for a copy of their search warrant. If they don't have one tell them to have a nice day and close the door.

+1. Pretty simple. It is awful that we live in a country where many law-abiding citizens would be afraid to answer the door if the cops come calling. I won't live that way. If they come, I'll answer the door but they do not come in without a warrant. Pretty simple. I think that is what James Madison, Tom Jefferson & Co. had in mind back when the Constitution got written.

mossy
08-10-2012, 3:46 AM
police wont be at your door unless they are tipped off that you have a suspected illegal weapon. if i recall correctly rifles are not registered so they will not know you own a black rifle. as for the nosy neighbors ALWAYS case your riles before taking them outside. they will know you have a rifle when they see the case, but they wont know it is one of those scary black ones.

tiki
08-10-2012, 4:46 AM
Dude, seriously, let it go. You alone have to be your ally and conscientious objector. Make smart decisions based on your goals, and be prepared to sacrifice something or possibly everything depending on what choices you make and what your goals ultimately are.

Sorry for not giving you a real answer to this, but the reality is that no one is probably going to. In this hypothetical scenario, you have very limited choices. Anyone who has taken more than a few hours to really educate themselves and think about things knows what those choices are.

So we all know the choices, we all know we have to choose for ourselves, and we all know we wouldn't wish that unfortunate choice on anyone else. So how can anyone tell you what you should do when most will be making that decision right about the time they hear the doorbell and look out the window.

Circumstances and goals determine decisions, not people on the internet.

This is one of the best responses ever and should have been the end of this thread.

EM2
08-10-2012, 6:52 AM
Years before the wall fell, the Eastern Europeans just decided to do what they wanted irregardless of the commies. They just ignored government regulations, etc. A Pole told me that they just stopped caring what the government said and did. Sure, some of them went to jail, but most did not. A government cannot rule without consent of the governed.



Funny (not like haha) that you bring this up.
I have been an advocate of this for some time now.
Not that I advocate violating laws that harm others just not pay any mind to laws that have no victim attached.

Victimless crime laws are no law at all.

Of course I do not go around ignoring all victimless crime laws without regard for consequences but rather use a cost-benefit-risk type decision process.

donw
08-10-2012, 7:47 AM
Ask them for a copy of their search warrant. If they don't have one tell them to have a nice day and close the door.

^this...

i seriously doubt the police will be sent to 'round up' firearms unless martial law is decreed...they haven't the resources, the finances OR the manpower. it will require and enormous amount of all of those. (Not to mention the fact there will, no doubt, be those who will resist by meeting them with a hail of gunfire)

IF they do...odds are they WILL have a search warrant...and IF they DO have a search warrant, they will be none too polite about it.

if this occurs...there will, IMO, be a civil disturbance crisis at hand

SocomM4
08-10-2012, 7:58 AM
Riots would break out and we may see the next Civil War.

Decoligny
08-10-2012, 8:05 AM
What do I do? Or the question should be, "What SHOULD I do?"

Serious question now. Me and my gun owner buddies have came up with...

1. Don't answer the door if it's a cop in uniform
2. Tip toe quietly to the door and look in the peak hole and tip toe backwards quietly

3. Speed dial Wayne LaPierre
4. Answer the door and explain our constitutional right and then shut the door and lock it.
5. From within your garage, drive straight through your garage door and head for Nevada
6. Anne Frank it out and hide quietly in the attic

Please, everyone... I need to hear your answers

JUST in case this happens

The way around having to turn in any firearm that "becomes" an "Assault Weapon" under 249 if it passes, is to make it NOT an "Assault Weapon".

Purchase a .22 lr upper assembly, and remove the lower from the center fire upper and attach it to the rimfire upper (Probably a little more complicated than my explaination, but you get the idea). No more "AW".

Then sit back and patiently wait for the injunctions while the court cases run their course.

You still have all the makings of the dreaded "AW" should the Zombie Apocalypse actually occur.

Rock6.3
08-10-2012, 8:15 AM
This thread is like a rollover accident on the highway.

You know it's going to be ugly and you don't want to look.
But you look anyway.

RuggedJay
08-10-2012, 8:23 AM
I hope Yee and Kiegwin are reading this thread. They are retards for not understanding how stupid and impractical their proposed abortion of a law is.

QQQ
08-10-2012, 8:24 AM
...and a lot of departments expect over half of their force to turn in resignation paperwork.

And give up their fat, six-figure pensions? Or bloated salaries and benefits?

Hardly.
Years before the wall fell, the Eastern Europeans just decided to do what they wanted irregardless of the commies. They just ignored government regulations, etc. A Pole told me that they just stopped caring what the government said and did. Sure, some of them went to jail, but most did not. A government cannot rule without consent of the governed.
Most Americans already do this in one way or another. How many people do you know who claim all their taxes on internet purchases or strictly obey the posted speed limits?

leadstorm
08-10-2012, 8:27 AM
Interesting side note: in this Katrina confiscation video, one of the officers is a CHP. You can see this clearly on his shoulder patch if you pause at 3:16.

I knew a lot of agencies went to Louisiana to assist...:chris:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4

LBDamned
08-10-2012, 8:31 AM
It's fun to deal with hypothetical questions when you have nothing else to do with your time.

It's more valuable to fight bad legislation and keep it from becoming law.

IF we loose, then we move to the courts.


Dealing with the hypothetical can wait until this bill is close to its effective date.

yes, but let's face facts... #5 is an awfully hard option to ignore (for far more reasons than SB249)...

LBDamned
08-10-2012, 8:34 AM
Ask them for a copy of their search warrant. If they don't have one tell them to have a nice day and close the door.

if his scenario happens (which I don't believe it will), they would undoubtedly have a search warrant. And there would be some BS tax burden that legislation claims is necessary to cover the expense - of course the sheeple will be on board (after-all, a large percentage pay little to no tax anyway).

Aldemar
08-10-2012, 8:35 AM
just take the bullet buttons off, and seperate the uppers from the lowers and you'll be good. No constructive posession for AW's. with the AK you just take off bullet button, remove bolt and carrier and whamo! you're good to go.

I believe that if you remove the BB you will also need to remove any pistol grip and collapsible stock for a true featureless rifle. Perhaps if you swap out to a .22lr upper you would be safe. I may just buy one before the rush if this junk bill passes.

masayako
08-10-2012, 8:38 AM
I will open my door and ask the police to visit you first. "Seriously". :43:

What do I do? Or the question should be, "What SHOULD I do?"

Serious question now. Me and my gun owner buddies have came up with...

1. Don't answer the door if it's a cop in uniform
2. Tip toe quietly to the door and look in the peak hole and tip toe backwards quietly

3. Speed dial Wayne LaPierre
4. Answer the door and explain our constitutional right and then shut the door and lock it.
5. From within your garage, drive straight through your garage door and head for Nevada
6. Anne Frank it out and hide quietly in the attic

Please, everyone... I need to hear your answers

JUST in case this happens

Bhobbs
08-10-2012, 8:42 AM
What do I do? Or the question should be, "What SHOULD I do?"

Serious question now. Me and my gun owner buddies have came up with...

1. Don't answer the door if it's a cop in uniform
2. Tip toe quietly to the door and look in the peak hole and tip toe backwards quietly

3. Speed dial Wayne LaPierre
4. Answer the door and explain our constitutional right and then shut the door and lock it.
5. From within your garage, drive straight through your garage door and head for Nevada
6. Anne Frank it out and hide quietly in the attic

Please, everyone... I need to hear your answers

JUST in case this happens

1. and 2. will probably result in your door being busted down.

3. Why?

4. They will laugh at you and then bust down your door.

5. Probably get shot

6. Ok.....

masayako
08-10-2012, 8:43 AM
By the way, everyone, don't underestimate police ability to get a warrant. It's not like they have to run to downtown, wait for DA to approve and sign. It's not that complicated. They simply called a coordinator and that person will contact DA on duty (24/7) to obtain a warrant. It can happen in real time right outside your door. This is the info I got from my LEO buddy.


Don't be confused by TV police drama. Search Warrant is very easy to get especially when they suspect you have illegal firearms in the house.

Brown Rock
08-10-2012, 8:48 AM
just take the bullet buttons off, and seperate the uppers from the lowers and you'll be good. No constructive posession for AW's.
Do I need to remove the collapsible stock and pistol grip too?
I believe that if you remove the BB you will also need to remove any pistol grip and collapsible stock for a true featureless rifle.

Thank you for confirming this for me. I figured this had to be done.

frankm
08-10-2012, 8:54 AM
By the way, everyone, don't underestimate police ability to get a warrant. It's not like they have to run to downtown, wait for DA to approve and sign. It's not that complicated. They simply called a coordinator and that person will contact DA on duty (24/7) to obtain a warrant. It can happen in real time right outside your door. This is the info I got from my LEO buddy.

Don't be confused by TV police drama. Search Warrant is very easy to get especially when they suspect you have illegal firearms in the house.

Yes, but that'll give you enough time to remove your pistol grips.

Wherryj
08-10-2012, 8:55 AM
Serious answer: If the police are at your door you have done something to get their attention. That something was an error that you need to prevent.

Think about it, do you own the biggest pile of guns of anyone you know?
If not, then those guys will be visited before you will, thus you will have plenty of advance warning.

Most likely what you've done is to post on this forum. When the law goes into effect, Mr. Yee's office will turn over all of the IP addresses and have the Gestapo give you a visit. After all, fighting a wonderful person like him is obviously subversive behavior.

Wherryj
08-10-2012, 8:59 AM
No, that's the second that a knee will be pressed into the back of your neck for resisting.

And then you get to decide what you will say when they ask for the combo to your gun safe.

See how much easier it is to avoid doing that 'thing' that got you noticed?

The combo to my safe is "5"...as in the amendment. Crack it open if you want to see what is inside. I have no doubt that they can do it, but as Gene says, "broken doors make good evidence". If you have a case in the future, it will probably be stronger if they didn't get you to voluntarily prove that you had contraband. Perhaps the illegal search will make that evidence go away.

Wherryj
08-10-2012, 9:05 AM
No hablo ingles, solamente espanol

This is actually genius. If you throw in an implication that you are an illegal alien to boot, you will probably be golden. After all, our AG has been well known for allowing even repeat violent offenders off the hook if they are illegal.

mt4design
08-10-2012, 9:13 AM
If given the opportunity, I would ask for a warrant.

But, I have to wonder why some are not aware of this...

...have you not heard of a "no knock warrant"?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/no-knock_warrant

A no-knock warrant is a search warrant authorizing police officers to enter certain premises without first knocking and announcing their presence or purpose prior to entering the premises. Such warrants are issued where an entry pursuant to the knock-and-announce rule (ie. an announcement prior to entry) would lead to the destruction of the objects for which the police are searching or would compromise the safety of the police or another individual.

According to the Department of Justice, "Although officers need not take affirmative steps to make an independent re-verification of the circumstances already recognized by a magistrate in issuing a no-knock warrant, such a warrant does not entitle officers to disregard reliable information clearly negating the existence of exigent circumstances when they actually receive such information before execution of the warrant."

The right to privacy, the right to property, rights in general, are all under assault.

It is not a stretch to consider that if the police, FBI, BATF, DHS are there on a gun related search, they would consider their lives at risk and argue a no knock warrant was justified.

Homeowners have died already because police went to the wrong house, busted down the wrong door and were met by a homeowner just trying to protect his self, his family and his property.

Given Patriot Act II, NDAA, etc., the fact is that the ground work is already there for the FEDS to come knocking, or not knocking.

I see a lot of expectation that rights still exist and comfort levels seem high that this cannot happen but the reality is, it already has.

A simple search for "wrong man killed in no knock warrant" brings up some interesting reading.

What I find troubling as well is that this gives great power to criminals intent on engaging in home invasion robbery specifically to target homeowners with weapons.

masayako
08-10-2012, 9:19 AM
Yes, that's right. We have an illusion of freedom and privacy, but in reality, we have none.


If given the opportunity, I would ask for a warrant.

But, I have to wonder why some are not aware of this...

...have you not heard of a "no knock warrant"?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/no-knock_warrant



The right to privacy, the right to property, rights in general, are all under assault.

It is not a stretch to consider that if the police, FBI, BATF, DHS are there on a gun related search, they would consider their lives at risk and argue a no knock warrant was justified.

Homeowners have died already because police went to the wrong house, busted down the wrong door and were met by a homeowner just trying to protect his self, his family and his property.

Given Patriot Act II, NDAA, etc., the fact is that the ground work is already there for the FEDS to come knocking, or not knocking.

I see a lot of expectation that rights still exist and comfort levels seem high that this cannot happen but the reality is, it already has.

A simple search for "wrong man killed in no knock warrant" brings up some interesting reading.

frankm
08-10-2012, 9:21 AM
^this is why all of your guns shouldn't be in the same place. I own lots of guns. They can find the ones in my house, but that's it. The rest? Gee, I have no specific recollection. Move some of your guns. Move them now. You can visit them on occasion. Uh oh, Yee just cut n pasted this. Dang. But then again. Is it the truth? Or subterfuge?

SgtDinosaur
08-10-2012, 9:24 AM
I will wait to see what Gene says before I do anything. We have some good legal minds at Calguns.

simplesb
08-10-2012, 10:34 AM
I saw Gun owners of California was going to hold a protest.

http://www.gunownersca.com/news/news-current/item/2431-help-defeat-sb249

nothinghere2c
08-10-2012, 11:23 AM
just take the bullet buttons off, and seperate the uppers from the lowers and you'll be good. No constructive posession for AW's. with the AK you just take off bullet button, remove bolt and carrier and whamo! you're good to go.

would that apply to ak pistols? I thought because the thing is riveted together you'd have to remove the evil features like take off the pistol grip or something.

Rock6.3
08-10-2012, 11:26 AM
would that apply to ak pistols? I thought because the thing is riveted together you'd have to remove the evil features like take off the pistol grip or something.

The bill has been amended thru a gut and replace 2 times already.
There is NO WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE what we have to do IF SOME VERSION OF THIS BILL BECOMES LAW NEXT YEAR.

All we know for now is that the bill is not good for owners of semi auto firearms with certain features. But the bill can be amended again any time and we do not know what it will look like in the end.

Quit guessing about how to mod your firearm and get off your couch and get people involved with defeating this piece of legislation.

Glock22Fan
08-10-2012, 11:30 AM
Hand them the Bullet Button that used to be on your AR. :cool2:

Buy a second BB to hand over to them. Pay cash and destroy the paperwork. Keep the original well hidden and let CGF sort it out.

Note, this is said for humor, I am not advocating anything illegal.

nothinghere2c
08-10-2012, 11:32 AM
The bill has been amended thru a gut and replace 2 times already.
There is NO WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE what we have to do IF SOME VERSION OF THIS BILL BECOMES LAW NEXT YEAR.

All we know for now is that the bill is not good for owners of semi auto firearms with certain features. But the bill can be amended again any time and we do not know what it will look like in the end.

Quit guessing about how to mod your firearm and get off your couch and get people involved with defeating this piece of legislation.

I've donated multiple times, continue to bug my reps and have been spreading the word to the best of my ability. I was just curious based off the current language of the bill.

bohoki
08-10-2012, 11:40 AM
keep anything that may be illegal disassembled

Aldemar
08-10-2012, 11:58 AM
^this is why all of your guns shouldn't be in the same place. I own lots of guns. They can find the ones in my house, but that's it. The rest? Gee, I have no specific recollection. Move some of your guns. Move them now. You can visit them on occasion. Uh oh, Yee just cut n pasted this. Dang. But then again. Is it the truth? Or subterfuge?

Hey Yee - I've got a house in Arizona also. What are you going to do about that?

mbt
08-10-2012, 1:20 PM
You never considered: WACOing it out.

That is if you really believe it's a Constitutional right against tyranny of the govt.

But, if u think of it as just toys to shoot inanimate objects, then you might as well bend over to them for the rest of your life.

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 3:44 PM
^this...

i seriously doubt the police will be sent to 'round up' firearms unless martial law is decreed...they haven't the resources, the finances OR the manpower. it will require and enormous amount of all of those. (Not to mention the fact there will, no doubt, be those who will resist by meeting them with a hail of gunfire)

IF they do...odds are they WILL have a search warrant...and IF they DO have a search warrant, they will be none too polite about it.

if this occurs...there will, IMO, be a civil disturbance crisis at hand

This question is very far-fetched but imagine how this might actually play-out.

First it would hit the news that the CA DOJ now requires those who own "assault weapons" to provide proof the guns have been modified to be in compliance with the law, sold out of state, disassembled or destroyed. Good luck with that!

Then it would have to announce it was going to investigate and prosecute those who did not bring their former "assault weapons" for review. Based on what? DROS and FFL records? Talk about it hitting the fan.

Many local law enforcement agencies wouldn't cooperate with the CA DOJ on this. So what, we'll have CHP officers at the door? Really?

I suppose some would say that undercover CHP's/rangers will infiltrate local ranges and shooting spots. Good luck! The first time I heard that happened at a range or even my club, I would NEVER return!

Mr. Gillious
08-10-2012, 8:52 PM
Most likely what you've done is to post on this forum. When the law goes into effect, Mr. Yee's office will turn over all of the IP addresses and have the Gestapo give you a visit. After all, fighting a wonderful person like him is obviously subversive behavior.

Well, I only have 6% on my itrader. The higher scores will get the visit first :D

CBruce
08-10-2012, 8:59 PM
No really, it is a serious question.

I'm just curious what would really happen. To actually imagine police carrying out rifles from my home just seems very disturbing and violating.

I've opposed the bill on stopsb249.org, what else can I possibly do? Do I have to go to special meetings or something?

Sorry, I'm not very politics savvy.

Search warrant?

No? Then I'm afraid I cannot let you in officers, I hope you understand. Have a good day.
Yes? Then come in while I contact my attorney/Calgun foundation.

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 9:32 PM
Just out of curiosity if AB 249 is approved, can its implementation be delayed.killed through the courts?

DannyInSoCal
08-10-2012, 9:41 PM
"We shall finish the game Doc.

We shall finish the game...."

jeep7081
08-10-2012, 9:58 PM
We, yes I'm LEO, are WAY to busy.
We won't be knocking on your door.
Stay quiet until the stupidity is repealed/fixed. Then hit the range.

Maybe not you. But, it did happen. They did go door to door! In the USA. The Officers were ordered to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

leadstorm
08-10-2012, 10:15 PM
Buy a second BB to hand over to them. Pay cash and destroy the paperwork. Keep the original well hidden and let CGF sort it out.

Note, this is said for humor, I am not advocating anything illegal.The BB is already an abomination (albeit necessary).

If it gets to the point where I'd need to consider squirelling BB's away, I"ll just do something else. :rolleyes:

LMTluvr
08-10-2012, 10:23 PM
Maybe not you. But, it did happen. They did go door to door! In the USA. The Officers were ordered to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

Wow:mad: Was that a CHP patch about 30 seconds in?

Rockit
08-10-2012, 10:51 PM
Maybe not you. But, it did happen. They did go door to door! In the USA. The Officers were ordered to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related
True, but on a miniscule scale compared to what would be faced in CA.

Rockit
08-10-2012, 10:52 PM
The BB is already an abomination (albeit necessary).

If it gets to the point where I'd need to consider squirelling BB's away, I"ll just do something else. :rolleyes:
Featureless:cool2:

jeep7081
08-10-2012, 11:16 PM
True, but on a miniscule scale compared to what would be faced in CA.

I heard thousands were taken. Not spliting hairs. But, I wouldn't want to be one of the thousands. Main point is, it did happen and Officers were ordered to do so. It brings up a red flag for concern.

Rockit
08-10-2012, 11:19 PM
It brings up a red flag for concern.
agreed. I know very little about the situation.

Rock6.3
08-11-2012, 8:09 AM
Wow:mad: Was that a CHP patch about 30 seconds in?

Yes.

Digital_Hate
08-11-2012, 10:32 AM
I'll go it "Home Alone" style

CAL.BAR
08-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Having lived through two of these bans now. I can say with history under my belt that you will do NOTHING! In 1988 thousands of AW"s were outlawed. Many thousands refused to register them. Again in 2000 more were outlawed. Again thousands refused to register. To date, I'm not aware of a SINGLE instance of ANY lone 2A proponent "going WACO" with the cops. Not one. So... I already know the answer to your question. You and everyone else will do NOTHING.

Bhobbs
08-11-2012, 11:22 AM
True, but on a miniscule scale compared to what would be faced in CA.

So what? They wouldn't have to go door to door for the most part. Most people would just hand over their rifles to avoid becoming a criminal. The ones that hold out would never take their rifles to the range.

The fact that is has already happened in this country shows that it can happen again. It may be on a larger scale than before but there are plenty of cops in this state to do it.

socal147
08-11-2012, 11:33 AM
I have a safe that will fit many firearms. Sell me yours for $1 each. I will hold them for you. J/K

The Elitist Politicians March to Their Drums, The People Suffer.

Rant Out

funked1
08-11-2012, 12:05 PM
My guns were all lost in a tragic canoe accident so who cares.

SpunkyJivl
08-11-2012, 12:07 PM
This about neighbors sometimes, you just don't know what all of them think about guns...

Mine are always cased - to and from the car. My guns are none of their business or concern, so I do what I can to keep it that way.

A.W.D.


Same here. Why would you not keep them cased? Open carrying them from car to house is just inviting potential problems here in CA.

I used to carry them back and forth all the time in TX just slung over my shoulder. God I miss TX.







But now it does not matter anymore, all of my guns were recently lost on a tragic deep sea fishing accident.

Drivedabizness
08-11-2012, 1:13 PM
Had a customer call. I guess he came from shooting. Neighbor saw he had a AR15 and thought it was illegal. So, they called the local PD. They showed up, asked to seee the rifle to make sure it was legal. He said no. Come back with a warrant. They left two uniformed officers at his door. They left, 2 hrs later returned with a warrant! He called his lawyer. Lawyer was present. He showed them the AR15 with 10rd mag, and bullet button. Nothing happen. In this situation, wasn't that simple (just close the door). This happen recently in central California.

Watch this video. Your answer is there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

I smell a lawsuit....

NoNOS67
08-11-2012, 1:19 PM
Maybe not you. But, it did happen. They did go door to door! In the USA. The Officers were ordered to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8q_rvcAP4&feature=related

That video makes my blood boil every time I see it! Anything ever come of this?

meaty-btz
08-11-2012, 1:25 PM
Having lived through two of these bans now. I can say with history under my belt that you will do NOTHING! In 1988 thousands of AW"s were outlawed. Many thousands refused to register them. Again in 2000 more were outlawed. Again thousands refused to register. To date, I'm not aware of a SINGLE instance of ANY lone 2A proponent "going WACO" with the cops. Not one. So... I already know the answer to your question. You and everyone else will do NOTHING.

And this gentlemen, is the truth. You did nothing then, you will do nothing in the future because you would all rather live as a eunuch in the kings palace than die a free and whole man. As with everything, it is a choice, and our nation has made a choice, time and time again since gun control began. We have a century of letting it happen, which shows us to be the fools.

This nation lacks men of conviction. You all say you have too much to lose, a family, a house, a good job are all better than being a whole man, a free man. The men who founded this nation were MILLIONAIRS, and they put everything on the line, including their families and loved ones because they were men of conviction.

There is no strength left in the blood of men.

pratchett
08-11-2012, 1:30 PM
Let's assume the Legislature, in an Orwelian wet dream, did decide to order law enforcement to round up firearms in California.

Let's further assume that not a single county sheriff would tell the legislature to come down and do it themselves.

Let's move further into fantasy land and assume that the county sheriffs who did comply wouldn't grind the effort to a disastrous halt by implementing the plan as slowly and ineffectively as they could manage, on purpose.

Now we'll say that they start the plan modestly by targeting just 1% of California gun owners.

That's 80,000 people.

Finally, let's conjure up a figure for the number of California gun owners in the "cold dead hands" category. These are the folks the anti-gun crowd believes we all are: the closet hillbillies who believe the government committed mass murder at Waco, and who are planning and preparing and waiting for the day they can go out in a blaze of glory and take as many law enforcement with them as they can. Let's say that's 1% of the 1% of gun owners - or 800 people. Now some would say, "Yes, but those numbers are high because the 2003 data doesn't differentiate between gun owning households and gun owners." Even though the data is also missing nearly a decade of new purchases, and even though it doesn't account for unregistered firearms, fine:

Let's assume every gun owner has a spouse and two children. 1/4 of 800 is 200.

So, in the 1st round of door-to-door gun seizures in California, we can absolutely count on 200 raging gun battles across the state.

Every time they go after another 1% of California gun owners, there will be another 200 raging gun battles across the state. And the question on the mind of every officer and every deputy in the state will be: which houses? How long before your average cop starts looking at his wife and kids and pension and starts calling in sick? How many will refuse because they take their oath seriously?

So no. There won't be any door-to-door confiscations. I want to die of old age in peace, and I want my children to grow up better than I did, so I don't want any of what I just described - ever. I want law enforcement officers to be safe as they carry out their lawful duties. But there are a few on both sides who want it. I hope they don't get their wish.

cmichini
08-11-2012, 1:30 PM
How many beers did you and your "gun buddies" have before this question came up?

If SB249 passes, the police won't be at your door. Unless you voluntarily registered your rifles, they don't even know you have them (in theory anyway).

First course of action would be to open the door and find out why the police are there.

If they want your guns, give them up and work it out in court. Unless you think it would be cool to bleed out in your living room.

First course of action is to talk to them through the door. If you open the door, you've breach your perimeter. Bad tactics.

FalconLair
08-11-2012, 1:52 PM
Simple; open door; hand them your check for the policemans ball; they go away!

jeep7081
08-11-2012, 10:55 PM
That video makes my blood boil every time I see it! Anything ever come of this?

There was a 2nd part to the video. NRA did sue and did win. People were allowed to claim their firearms back. Problem? PD said most were "lost". Lots of red tape to recover.

For those who say they were lost at sea, NEED to watch the video I posted. Doesn't work like that. 6 tactically trained P.O enter your house and confirm. No warrant needed.

that one guy
08-12-2012, 12:34 AM
This question is very far-fetched but imagine how this might actually play-out.


I suppose some would say that undercover CHP's/rangers will infiltrate local ranges and shooting spots. Good luck! The first time I heard that happened at a range or even my club, I would NEVER return!


I heard of undercover cops going to shooting ranges in the bay area and arresting citizens for not having bullet buttons or 30 rd mags

GW
08-12-2012, 1:22 AM
I heard of undercover cops going to shooting ranges in the bay area and arresting citizens for not having bullet buttons or 30 rd mags

Oh really?
Which ranges and when?

QQQ
08-12-2012, 1:30 AM
And this gentlemen, is the truth. You did nothing then, you will do nothing in the future because you would all rather live as a eunuch in the kings palace than die a free and whole man. As with everything, it is a choice, and our nation has made a choice, time and time again since gun control began. We have a century of letting it happen, which shows us to be the fools.

This nation lacks men of conviction. You all say you have too much to lose, a family, a house, a good job are all better than being a whole man, a free man. The men who founded this nation were MILLIONAIRS, and they put everything on the line, including their families and loved ones because they were men of conviction.

There is no strength left in the blood of men.

Except that several have gone down this way or in a similar fashion. I can think of at least three very well-known events off the top of my head from the 90's onward.

meaty-btz
08-12-2012, 8:17 AM
Except that several have gone down this way or in a similar fashion. I can think of at least three very well-known events off the top of my head from the 90's onward.

The real problem is that those men stood alone because no one would stand by their side. The Founders were not alone, they stood together. We, OTOH, throw our own under the bus the instant they are labeled "criminal" no matter that they are "criminal" because a new law was passed making a "new crime". We throw them our own in the hopes of running away while they are fed on.

Even our tactics with the SCOTUS mirror this where we look for a NON-CRIMINAL 2A case because the instant something is criminalized the court will side with that regardless of the constitution in most cases, so we hunt down "clean" cases. With the twisted and tangled laws most people who get popped for an Anti-2A law are also popped for something else, which muddies the water. This is even the case for "good men" because of the nature of today's laws a good person can be buried in water muddying accusations and felony counts.

Ugly, Ugly, day. What we really need are millionaires who form a group (not 1-2 million, but the 50-100 million + crowd) opposing the 2A on all levels. I don't think that will happen, however, due to changes in social pressures as a result of urbanization.

But this is all just my opinion.

EM2
08-12-2012, 8:26 AM
There was a 2nd part to the video. NRA did sue and did win. People were allowed to claim their firearms back. Problem? PD said most were "lost". Lots of red tape to recover.



You forgot to mention that they stored the firearms in barrels and piles in a damp environment and when the NRA finally had access to them (after a lot of lies from the local mayor & PD about the firearms not existing) they discovered many were rusted and in very poor condition. They were only able to determine the ownership of a small fraction of what was stolen by law enforcement.



For those who say they were lost at sea, NEED to watch the video I posted. Doesn't work like that. 6 tactically trained P.O enter your house and confirm. No warrant needed.



Please do explain this part to me.
Any time law enforcement enters your house the must have a warrant or probable cause that someone is being harmed or in imminent danger.
They cannot come right in to confirm anything.

You are right about not needing a warrant….. if we lived in a lawless police state, which apparently they did in New Orleans that day.

ewarmour
08-12-2012, 9:31 AM
Having lived through two of these bans now. I can say with history under my belt that you will do NOTHING! In 1988 thousands of AW"s were outlawed. Many thousands refused to register them. Again in 2000 more were outlawed. Again thousands refused to register. To date, I'm not aware of a SINGLE instance of ANY lone 2A proponent "going WACO" with the cops. Not one. So... I already know the answer to your question. You and everyone else will do NOTHING.

Exactly.

Besides, I hear pre-signing warrants is catching on in California too.

http://www.ajc.com/news/judge-investigated-for-pre-1496590.html

meaty-btz
08-12-2012, 9:35 AM
This was a PM but I thought it best if you all got to read it.



Originally Posted by ir0nclash86
I read your post about this nation lacking men of conviction. I agree with what you and djandj said. Its hard to find someone who is willing to give everything they love up for a greater cause. Are you willing to go the distance?
I already have in my life. Sticking with my convictions has cost me dearly and decades of hardship. All because I will not bow, I will not break before the alter that this culture worships at.

When considering the 2A and the concepts of Revolution one needs to consider history. Most importantly the French Revolutions (note plural). A revolution by the masses, or the mob, are not a good thing and almost never work out for the better. History shows us that the Middle Class is about as low as you can go to generate a successful change in any nations society/culture. Any mob driven rebellion has ended badly, even when they win out with the government that follows being driven by forces and views that are entirely unhealthy at a national level. It sounds harsh and classist but it is historically backed up.

What does our 2A need? A revolution/rebellion by the masses? No, that is disaster. A bunch of angry white people with guns? Equally bad. What we need is exactly what our founders had and were. Not just men of conviction but men with focus and consensus. The declaration stands to this day as a document written by men of principle and thoughtfulness.

Today is different than then for many reasons too long to list but how they did it won't work today. What we are in is a War, a war for control of our society. There are not just two factions but instead this war looks more like Afghani Warlords than a two party fight.

Right now the social controllers are factions that are against us. Our goal is to unseat them and regain control of the social order such that it is we who dictate it. To do that we need powerful allies. This isn't white men with guns, we need major bankers and industrialists and politicians on our side.

Resistance by a lone man in his house with his guns is pointless and useless. Resistance by force won't work either being that we are out-numbered and out-gunned in the literal sense. If you fight, you will be crushed. It is just a fact. Our founders would have been crushed as well if it were not for England being busy elsewhere and the 1 year plus turn around time to manage a war in the Colonies.

The fact that we have lost the culture war so badly is because we, as a block of people, over the last century did not ensure that we controlled the social metaphor. We didn't know we were at war already, that the fight was on. Our enemies used that against us, they used our law-abiding nature against us, all because we didn't know we were already in a shooting war.

The forces that drive Urbanization did us great harm but the fact that we did not act like we were already fully in the war is what has cost us and even has us looking at our guns asking if it is time again for the Lead Vote. The problem is our lack of proper perspective has enabled those groups currently in control to structure the social order such that any armed revolution would fail. And it would, conviction or not. Conviction does not stop a tank or a bullet or even more importantly a news cast or commentary.

Continued social "buy-in" by us means we are buying into Their Order and Their Metaphor. We do it because we want comfort, food, jobs, and a roof over the head for our families. We sell ourselves into their Order and then wonder why it seems to grow and strengthen. Our efforts need to be on all front, at home, at work, in the school, and on the streets with a line in the sand. We need to be the ones dictating the media speak, which means we need to own it, we need to have allies with the money and power to leverage control on our metaphor. But we don't because they are smart men and they see our Metaphor and how weak it's position is, how desperate it is, why throw in with the apparent losing team? Lots of risk, no gain.

When we start thinking that way is when we start taking back what is ours. There may come a day for blood shed but that is the most horrible day of all because it means we have LOST COMPLETELY. I have grave doubts about the outlook of such a time.

QQQ
08-12-2012, 9:38 AM
Our founders would have been crushed as well if it were not for England being busy elsewhere and the 1 year plus turn around time to manage a war in the Colonies.
I disagree. One only needs to look at Vietnam and Afghanistan.

meaty-btz
08-12-2012, 9:44 AM
I disagree. One only needs to look at Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Neither country has both infrastructure and data systems of this country. We have few bases that are far between with almost no social management or control in Afghanistan especially. This slows response. Even so the Taliban fighters still must retreat to a protected area in order to survive and rearm. The strength of the Taliban is Pakistan's Tribal Region. If they did not have that, they would have been annihilated and been rendered into a few angry, scattered, people.

Look at the whole picture.

In the USA we have bases everywhere, trained and well equipped policing and disaster response forces. Any incident will be reacted to on the level of minutes locally and a few hours nationally.

So no, we cannot compare Afghanistan and Vietnam to Modern America. Different ball game, with cameras, data, and teams already in place.

This is a good discussion.

mallard
08-12-2012, 10:01 AM
what if an individual county or city passes 249?

meaty-btz
08-12-2012, 10:08 AM
what if an individual county or city passes 249?

State Preemption comes into play and it is nullified.

ldivinag
08-12-2012, 9:29 PM
this:

http://www.fototime.com/B33BB16E78BD916/standard.jpg


:)

vantec08
08-13-2012, 2:57 AM
Whats that saying? "from my cold dead hands"

I am not too concerned. Have a relative in the LAPD. Alot of LEO's down there have discussed this, most are avid firearm owners. lets just say they would be placed in a bad position and a lot of departments expect over half of their force to turn in resignation paperwork.

At least from what I have heard from departments down south and in the central valley.

One Sherrif I heard actualy said he would not send his men and women to their death.

It seems the politicians who wont activley be putting their lives on the lines are the only ones that do not see the seriousness of this. they can pass a bill and go home to their families and have a nice dinner while other people risk their lives to try and enforce something that is constitutionally wrong.


Thought true at one time, it no longer is. Give up the authority and pension? Not hardly. We have mutated into something unrecognizable. And its only beginning.