PDA

View Full Version : Join Us at the Capitol as We Fight!


Chief2Guns
08-09-2012, 1:52 PM
SB 249 (Bullet Button Ban) to be Heard on Aug. 16th! Join Us at the Capitol as We Fight!


Thursday, August 9, 2012 1:17 PM

CALLING ALL GUN OWNERS!

SB 249, The Bullet Button Ban, Will Be Heard on August 16th ... and So Will Our Opposition!


The Assembly Appropriations Committee will hear the newly amended SB 249 on Thursday, August 16th, and we want YOU to help us testify in opposition at the hearing.


THURSDAY, AUGUST 16th

We want everyone to assemble NO LATER than 8:45AM

The North Steps of the State Capitol

(on L St)

We will all head up to Room 4202 together, where the hearing will begin at 9:00AM

IF YOU CAN JOIN US:

The committee has a lot of business to take care of, and they will do whatever they can to make it more difficult on us. That means, we may be waiting around for a very long time. But we can have even more of an affect on them if we show our dedication, by patiently waiting for the bill to be heard.


After Senator Leland Yee gives his testimony for the bill, the chair will most likely open up the mic for people to speak in opposition. At that time, everyone will be able to line up and give their name, their city, and state their opposition to the bill. The chair will most likely not let you say anything else due to time. Please be respectful, otherwise they will not give us time, much less listen to what we have to say.


AGAIN, please remember that they can change their schedule for the day or the rules for the hearing at any time, without notice. We cannot guarantee they will allow everyone to speak, but the more people who attend, the greater our presence will be noted, regardless!


ALSO, NO GUNS ARE ALLOWED ON CAPITOL GROUNDS, so we have to ask you to leave them at home. It's a shame that we have to ask, but we want to emphasize that they are taking the rights away from LAW ABIDING CITIZENS.


Please pass this information on to ALL of your Second Amendment friends! We need as many people as possible, in order to make the point that we collectively oppose this unconstitutional bill.

IF YOU CAN'T JOIN US: YOU CAN STILL HELP!

WE NEED YOUR HELP, NOW MORE THAN EVER, TO ELECT PRO-GUN CANDIDATES TO OFFICE! WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT IN OUR LOBBYING EFFORT, SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A GREATER VOICE! PLEASE JOIN GOC & DONATE TODAY! Sign the Petition! Collect signatures, by printing out the petition forms and fax them to our office (916-984-1402) by WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 15th!


Gun Owners of California

1831 Iron Point Rd., Suite 120

Folsom, CA 95630

www.gunownersca.com

Tel: (916) 984-1400

FAX: (916) 984-1402

Facebook

Twitter

Gun Owners of California, Inc. | 1831 Iron Point Rd, Suite 120 | Folsom, CA 95630

mmayer707
08-09-2012, 1:58 PM
From what I have heard YEE will waive his testimony. I doubt anyone will be able to be heard.

RuggedJay
08-09-2012, 2:11 PM
How do you KNOW he will waive testimony? Even if noone gets heard having calgunners there would be NOTICED.

AyatollahGondola
08-09-2012, 3:17 PM
From what I have heard YEE will waive his testimony. I doubt anyone will be able to be heard.

He can waive presentation, So they can vote without him presenting because it's on the agenda. However the hearing must provide for people who wish to address that legislative body directly. The law says they can limit the amount of speakers and the time alloted for each. What I've seen many times is that they post that the limit on speakers for each side is 2 or 3, and limit the time for each as two minutes. But who gets to speak for each side is a bit of a mystery. I'm not sure how that happens anymore. One thing is clear to me though, and that is that a few tyrants in those committees routinely cut off the those speaking against the bills that they favor.

curtisfong
08-09-2012, 3:21 PM
I don't understand why they even bother. Since when has discussion EVER changed who is voting for what?

RuggedJay
08-09-2012, 3:36 PM
I don't understand why they even bother. Since when has discussion EVER changed who is voting for what?

Lets just pull our pants down and bend over then. Isn't that exactly what they want. They need to see that people actively care about this issue.

Arisaka
08-09-2012, 4:23 PM
I thought this was a good idea, but Wildhawker thinks its not too bright. Probably not a good idea.

AyatollahGondola
08-09-2012, 7:55 PM
I don't understand why they even bother. Since when has discussion EVER changed who is voting for what?

It does occasionally. The problem is that there is a democrat cartel who trade votes amongst themselves. Overcoming that with testimony is really, really hard. What very much gripes me to no end is the people like steinberg who are on a committee but don't attend whole meetings, then vote later without even hearing any testimony. You know why he does that? So he can be the swing vote on any bill that has a close vote, and then use that position to encourage campaign donations or other favors.

AyatollahGondola
08-09-2012, 7:56 PM
I thought this was a good idea, but Wildhawker thinks its not too bright. Probably not a good idea.

What's not a good idea?

Chief2Guns
08-09-2012, 10:50 PM
Bunch of "Girly Men", those who choose not to make a stand. In the beginning of change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned for his actions. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,for then it cost nothing to be a Patriot. ~Mark Twain~

Lone_Gunman
08-09-2012, 10:54 PM
Bunch of "Girly Men", those who choose not to make a stand.

So you're the type of guy who will do something stupid and anti productive, which may actually hurt your cause, just to be doing something hunh? Let me guess, I bet you were an open carry guy too...

DrDavid
08-09-2012, 11:21 PM
ALSO, NO GUNS ARE ALLOWED ON CAPITOL GROUNDS

I just wanted to highlight this.. EVEN IF YOU HAVE A CCW, the Capitol building, without approval, is off-limits to guns.

Wish I could be there.. Alas, I live a bit too far away...

DinoPJR
08-09-2012, 11:26 PM
I just wanted to highlight this.. EVEN IF YOU HAVE A CCW, the Capitol building, without approval, is off-limits to guns.

Wish I could be there.. Alas, I live a bit too far away...

good man! fighting the good fight! Thanks for your web support!

phrogg111
08-09-2012, 11:44 PM
I'm going.

I'll be there before 8:30AM if I know what's good for me, insomnia from iraq/afghanistan or not. If I have to say up all night to wake up for this, I'm showing up.

Should I bring a sign? What should I write on it?

Thinking: "2A: GUNS FOR JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE ONLY"

Suggestions?

AyatollahGondola
08-10-2012, 6:11 AM
So you're the type of guy who will do something stupid and anti productive, which may actually hurt your cause, just to be doing something hunh? Let me guess, I bet you were an open carry guy too...

I was, and am an open carry guy. I am also a committee meeting guy, activist guy, letter writing guy, and donor guy (if I ever get money again)

The men who stood at lexington were open carriers. Would you like to disrespect them also?

Micro48
08-10-2012, 6:30 AM
The men who open carried at Lexington were using their arms. Are you going to do the same?

bruceflinch
08-10-2012, 8:00 AM
I thought this was a good idea, but Wildhawker thinks its not too bright. Probably not a good idea.

Why? Is Wildhawker afraid he is the only one who can save us? :rolleyes:

donw
08-10-2012, 8:14 AM
geeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh...we're all on the same side.

i cannot attend...or i would.

good luck! you have my moral and spiritual support along with with letter writing and faxing that i do in support of our rights.

bloodhawke83
08-10-2012, 8:18 AM
Just don't do what these guys did, keep the guns at home.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg857/scaled.php?server=857&filename=capitolinvaded.jpg&res=landing

RuggedJay
08-10-2012, 8:31 AM
^^^^^Should have been telling people about this and organizing carpools MONTHS AGO!!!! So is ANYBODY from CGF even going to be there?????? Its gonna a room full of crickets in there.

adampolo13
08-10-2012, 8:36 AM
Just don't do what these guys did, keep the guns at home.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg857/scaled.php?server=857&filename=capitolinvaded.jpg&res=landing

+1!!!

RuggedJay
08-10-2012, 8:40 AM
Bunch of "Girly Men", those who choose not to make a stand. In the beginning of change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned for his actions. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,for then it cost nothing to be a Patriot. ~Mark Twain~

How many people you expect to show up as of now????

Rock6.3
08-10-2012, 8:44 AM
How many people you expect to show up as of now????

I'll be there.

The next generation will not look back on this day and judge me a failure for sitting silently at home while our rights were being destroyed.

AyatollahGondola
08-10-2012, 9:11 AM
The men who open carried at Lexington were using their arms. Are you going to do the same?

It may come to that. In the interim, I'll be continue lobbying non-violently, and practicing my culture boldly

Wrangler John
08-10-2012, 10:17 AM
Why? Is Wildhawker afraid he is the only one who can save us? :rolleyes:

Those who show up will be disappointed as there will be no discussion of the bill as stated above, Yee will waive testimony. Wildhawker mentioned that all they would accomplish is that they would sit around all day without being able to speak. If tempers flair at the imagined snub so that a ruckus ensues, the result will be a black eye for the opponents of SB249. You are on their turf, playing by their rules, you can't win the game they invented and referee. :mad:

formula502
08-10-2012, 10:20 AM
Bear with me a moment...

Consider a flamboyant gay-pride parade in a deeply socially conservative state. Is that more likely to make folks reconsider their beliefs on gay rights or make them dig in their heels?

Yes the activists are out there doing something and "practicing their culture boldly", but is it really effective?

Regardless of your stance on this topic wouldn't you think they'd have greater chances for success by quietly picking the right legal fights and boxing their opposition into a constitutional corner?

It's not about speaking out or staying quiet. It's not about man or mouse. It's about using the right tools for job.

When deck is stacked against you... don't make bigger bets, count cards.

This is "Art of War" type s**t. Just because it's quiet & elegant doesn't mean its not f*****g war!

AyatollahGondola
08-10-2012, 10:43 AM
Those who show up will be disappointed as there will be no discussion of the bill as stated above, Yee will waive testimony. Wildhawker mentioned that all they would accomplish is that they would sit around all day without being able to speak. If tempers flair at the imagined snub so that a ruckus ensues, the result will be a black eye for the opponents of SB249. You are on their turf, playing by their rules, you can't win the game they invented and referee. :mad:

If there is a committee hearing, the people have the right to address that legislative body directly. It's part of the bagely-keene act. They can limit testimony, but not deny it, They also cannot limit it discriminately.
I disagree with whoever said they that people shouldn't go. In the very least, getting that education up close and in person is valuable, as it etches painfully the manner in which this legislature treats its' subjects, and gives incentive to fight back. So you sit around all day..... The fact is you'll still be taking in the rest of the bills being heard and watch the expressions of the committee members. You know what else you can do in the meantime? Comment on any other bill that normally shoots through the committee at the speed of sound. If more people packed these meetings and addressed the bills in person, the legislature's effort would slow to a crawl, and that my friends would slow down the amount of bills passing each day, week, session. It's a chance to throw yourself on the sword without bloodshed.

AyatollahGondola
08-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Bear with me a moment...

Consider a flamboyant gay-pride parade in a deeply socially conservative state. Is that more likely to make folks reconsider their beliefs on gay rights or make them dig in their heels?

Yes the activists are out there doing something and "practicing their culture boldly", but is it really effective?

Regardless of your stance on this topic wouldn't you think they'd have greater chances for success by quietly picking the right legal fights and boxing their opposition into a constitutional corner?

It's not about speaking out or staying quiet. It's not about man or mouse. It's about using the right tools for job.

When deck is stacked against you... don't make bigger bets, count cards.

This is "Art of War" type s**t. Just because it's quiet & elegant doesn't mean its not f*****g war!

Are you kidding me? Gays were on the front lines getting their heads beat down exercising rights they believed they had before any were won or proven. The court battles were going on simultaneously. I can't tell you whether they would have prevailed with one method without the other or no, but those public protests brought them advertisement that helped draw in their betheren and sympathizers, which in turn helped them consolidate their power. It was the act of defiance and activism in the face of public opinion that drew some gays out of their comfort zone (if you could call it that)

Bogart
08-10-2012, 12:32 PM
Anyone at CGF that can give us a definitive yea or nay to going to this thing?

Don't want to freak out the general population with some crazy show of force, and if only 30 people show up...won't that look bad too.

joe_sun
08-10-2012, 12:44 PM
^^^^^Should have been telling people about this and organizing carpools MONTHS AGO!!!! So is ANYBODY from CGF even going to be there?????? Its gonna a room full of crickets in there.

This hasn't been out there for months....:rolleyes:

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Chief2Guns
08-10-2012, 12:59 PM
So you're the type of guy who will do something stupid and anti productive, which may actually hurt your cause, just to be doing something hunh? Let me guess, I bet you were an open carry guy too...

"Spectators don't risk failure, but neither are they rememberd. Get invovlved in life-take risk and leave a legacy." ~?~ I'm just the messenger, I don't have any specific detail about this. For more information you can call them (number is on the bottom).

dwtt
08-10-2012, 2:09 PM
I disagree with whoever said they that people shouldn't go. In the very least, getting that education up close and in person is valuable, as it etches painfully the manner in which this legislature treats its' subjects, and gives incentive to fight back. So you sit around all day..... The fact is you'll still be taking in the rest of the bills being heard and watch the expressions of the committee members. You know what else you can do in the meantime? Comment on any other bill that normally shoots through the committee at the speed of sound. If more people packed these meetings and addressed the bills in person, the legislature's effort would slow to a crawl, and that my friends would slow down the amount of bills passing each day, week, session. It's a chance to throw yourself on the sword without bloodshed.

You can go if you wish, but don't hurt gun rights by doing something stupid, like the selfish and childish open carry people. This isn't about you or GOC, SB249 affects every gun owner in CA. I get the impression you are still naive and a novice at this, so my only advice is to think before you do or say anything to avoid hurting all gun owners in CA.

Akers
08-10-2012, 2:22 PM
Why? Is Wildhawker afraid he is the only one who can save us? :rolleyes:


Ha!

Arisaka
08-10-2012, 2:31 PM
Why? Is Wildhawker afraid he is the only one who can save us? :rolleyes:

I don't know why he feels that way. Don't get me wrong, I posted up about the success that the hound hunters were having by showing up to the capitol in this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9096500#post9096500
I'd like to think that my post helped inspire a protest. There were 300 hunters that showed up to protest, and they shut the bill down. I think it's a great idea, but there must be some reason that CGF doesn't.....

Arisaka
08-10-2012, 2:33 PM
You guys are right though, gun owners are pretty mainstream. Much more so than gay people were when they started protesting and fighting for their rights. I think we could have success, it seems to me that we have an easier row to hoe than they did back in the day. Maybe we should get loud and proud lol

gixxnrocket
08-10-2012, 3:07 PM
I'll be with you guys in spirit! Sorry I just can't swing the $300 airfare from San Diego right now. Amtrack.. is a joke I could drive there faster (much cheaper to fly) but I do have work on Friday.

RuggedJay
08-10-2012, 3:16 PM
I don't know why he feels that way. Don't get me wrong, I posted up about the success that the hound hunters were having by showing up to the capitol in this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9096500#post9096500
I'd like to think that my post helped inspire a protest. There were 300 hunters that showed up to protest, and they shut the bill down. I think it's a great idea, but there must be some reason that CGF doesn't.....

I tried to post threads to get people motivated to go to this meeting and guess what happened. Some moderator locked down my thread. Way to go!!!! If this bill passes the fact that we didnt have atleast 300 people there will be one of the reasons. Now I realize why some people say that Gun owners are there own worst enemies.

OleCuss
08-10-2012, 3:19 PM
No particular downside to going if you've nothing else going on where you will make a difference.

Just don't expect to get to speak to the issue. Show up very nicely dressed and prepare to be quiet for an extended period of absolute boredom and then leave.

More productive to make a few phone calls and donate the gas money to the opponents of the likes of Steinberg.

Even better would be to spend the gas money and time showing up at the campaign headquarters of a candidate opposing Steinberg, Yee, DeLeon, Portantino, etc and work their phone bank or something like that.

If none of us show up at the committee it may be taken as a very silent protest against the travesty of a committee which cares nothing for the fundamental Constitutional rights of the citizenry. It is also a warning that we plan to destroy their bill in court should they actually pass this garbage and should Brown actually sign it.

I guarantee you that I'm not going to show up. I've productive things to do that day.

AyatollahGondola
08-10-2012, 3:52 PM
You can go if you wish, but don't hurt gun rights by doing something stupid, like the selfish and childish open carry people. This isn't about you or GOC, SB249 affects every gun owner in CA. I get the impression you are still naive and a novice at this, so my only advice is to think before you do or say anything to avoid hurting all gun owners in CA.

Good grief! I could make similar claims that people with high capacity, fast changing mags have brought undue attention to all gun owners who just want a plain, bolt or lever action firearm. It's hard to believe the supremacy in this arena. I am an open carrier, and I've made no attempt to hide that. I only have a few, very basic firearms in my possession, and none are the type to be banned by 249. I went to three of the 1527 meetings, and spoke at two. There were very few of us, and I never understood why, because an attack on open carry is an attack on gun owners. But I'm still going to this 249 meeting for the same reason. Don't matter that I don't have a gun to ban right now. What matters is we are under assault in the legislature and that place ain't nothin' more now than an ill bill mill that needs a citizen forced enema.
As far as naive or novice at this, I don't know what the "this" is that you are referring to.

For those so inclined, we have several selfish events coming up in the very near future

phrogg111
08-10-2012, 8:15 PM
So, again, I'm definitely showing up.

Showing up in a suit and tie.

Again, should I bring a sign? What should I put on it?

dave_cg
08-10-2012, 8:51 PM
Guys, here's an observation from personal experience. About 30 years ago my wife was a legislative aid for the Minnesota Senate Republican caucus. We were young and poor then, so we only had one car and when the sessions ran late towards the end of the term I spent a lot of time in the gallery waiting to carpool home with my wife.

So anyway... once in a while something that was a hot issue for one group or another would come up, and instead of me and 2 or 3 other lonely souls in the gallery, it would be packed. It did always get the attention of the legislators... BUT.... be careful how you do it. The groups that came in, dressed professionally, sat and watched with polite and quiet attention were effective. There is nothing like dozens of pairs of eyes and ears fixed in 110% attention to make a politician know they are being watched. One night a union-oriented bill came up, and a bunch of rowdy and angry toughs packed the gallery. They thought they were going to be 'enforcers'. They hooted and booed whenever they disagreed and were generally dis-respectful. After two warnings, the gallery was cleared of everyone. The bill did not go well for them -- they did not make a positive impression.

If you decide to go, make your momma proud.

Librarian
08-11-2012, 12:25 AM
What should I put on it?

"I VOTE".

wildhawker
08-11-2012, 1:27 AM
Why? Is Wildhawker afraid he is the only one who can save us? :rolleyes:

No, Bruce, I'm hoping you and the other do-nothings can cover for me so I can finally get some sleep. You going to the next CRPA meeting?

-Brandon

wildhawker
08-11-2012, 1:31 AM
The politics of this bill are significantly different.

Recall I never said "don't", just that I believe it's either net-neutral or worse. People often make the false assumption that bill = bill = bill. That's not the game we play in politics.

Court cases are generally not won on oral arguments, and bills are generally not defeated on testimony. They are, however, lost.

-Brandon

I don't know why he feels that way. Don't get me wrong, I posted up about the success that the hound hunters were having by showing up to the capitol in this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9096500#post9096500
I'd like to think that my post helped inspire a protest. There were 300 hunters that showed up to protest, and they shut the bill down. I think it's a great idea, but there must be some reason that CGF doesn't.....

send it_hit
08-11-2012, 1:57 AM
No, Bruce, I'm hoping you and the other do-nothings can cover for me so I can finally get some sleep. You going to the next CRPA meeting?

-Brandon

well, isn't that awfully bold.

wildhawker
08-11-2012, 2:03 AM
well, isn't that awfully bold.

"Awfully", no.

-Brandon

AyatollahGondola
08-11-2012, 6:37 AM
The politics of this bill are significantly different.

Recall I never said "don't", just that I believe it's either net-neutral or worse. People often make the false assumption that bill = bill = bill. That's not the game we play in politics.

Court cases are generally not won on oral arguments, and bills are generally not defeated on testimony. They are, however, lost.

-Brandon

Mr Wildhawker,

I don't know you, and while I'm relatively certain you are a very active person politically, I'm going to challenge again, your advice and reason on this subject. You are presuming that not one single person can bring an idea or premise to the statehouse that you haven't already thought of, that would cause a bill to be changed or stopped. the one thing I have learned about this process is that I don't know everything, and I'm secure enough to state that. I like challenge to the status quo, and who knows who might show up with a tangible one. While I may have not stopped a bill yet, I have presented evidence at these hearings that has spurred involved parties to act on that information. Sometimes it involves ***-covering, and sometimes it involves exposure of improprieties that you end up seeing behind the scenes scrambling to correct. While it may not be monumental, I have caused our government to act in some fashion, and that in itself is the basic foundation of making an impact. It's harder to do that if you don't go.

M1Kev
08-11-2012, 6:49 AM
Mr Wildhawker,

I don't know you, and while I'm relatively certain you are a very active person politically, I'm going to challenge again, your advice and reason on this subject. You are presuming that not one single person can bring an idea or premise to the statehouse that you haven't already thought of, that would cause a bill to be changed or stopped. the one thing I have learned about this process is that I don't know everything, and I'm secure enough to state that. I like challenge to the status quo, and who knows who might show up with a tangible one. While I may have not stopped a bill yet, I have presented evidence at these hearings that has spurred involved parties to act on that information. Sometimes it involves ***-covering, and sometimes it involves exposure of improprieties that you end up seeing behind the scenes scrambling to correct. While it may not be monumental, I have caused our government to act in some fashion, and that in itself is the basic foundation of making an impact. It's harder to do that if you don't go.

So Wildhawker and CGF have been working with SAF, CAL-FFL, and other organizations on this bill since inception. I would imagine that there is probably a list somewhere of who should speak, if possible, and some talking points that should be covered. Now, say 300 firearm enthusiasts show up in the gallery. Say they present the bill and limit the public to 2-3 speakers or, due to the amount of people, limit the speakers to >1 min. Would it not make more sense to get those specifically chosen for their verbal skills to speak or someone who is out to challenge the status quo? I, for one, would prefer to have Wildhawker be in the stands to present an argument over one of the normal CGN types who, while passionate about this bill and most definitely with their heart in the right place, may not present the argument in the way that it should be presented. We seem to be working against one another rather than with one another. Not saying that a bunch of well dressed people on the steps would not be noticed, just that we need to stick together and work together. Just my $0.02.

M1Kev
08-11-2012, 6:54 AM
AyatollahGondola,
I applaud your desire to get involved, I wish I was able to do more than I am. I am not trying to offend you or anything, I just think that the President of an non-profit organization with a good history of working on the political scene would have more of an impact than the average citizen off of the street. Yes, as a citizen you have the right to be heard, but since when do politico's care about one person? It would make you feel good, no doubt, but would it really get anything done besides that?

Wrangler John
08-11-2012, 7:11 AM
If there is a committee hearing, the people have the right to address that legislative body directly. It's part of the bagely-keene act. They can limit testimony, but not deny it, They also cannot limit it discriminately.
I disagree with whoever said they that people shouldn't go. In the very least, getting that education up close and in person is valuable, as it etches painfully the manner in which this legislature treats its' subjects, and gives incentive to fight back. So you sit around all day..... The fact is you'll still be taking in the rest of the bills being heard and watch the expressions of the committee members. You know what else you can do in the meantime? Comment on any other bill that normally shoots through the committee at the speed of sound. If more people packed these meetings and addressed the bills in person, the legislature's effort would slow to a crawl, and that my friends would slow down the amount of bills passing each day, week, session. It's a chance to throw yourself on the sword without bloodshed.

I hope you're correct, and have the desired effect. The only experience I have is from shepherding a bill I wrote for an Assemblyman back in the '60's, as a young naive activist. If I recall, it died in committee from too many supporters wanting to speak using up all the time. That was a long time ago, maybe things have changed. Let us know how it works out.

EchoFourTango
08-11-2012, 8:07 AM
I think that we should not relie on the courts to heavily, especialy the supreme courts as they may be stacked against us in the next few years if the election goes badly.

AyatollahGondola
08-11-2012, 8:53 AM
I hope you're correct, and have the desired effect. The only experience I have is from shepherding a bill I wrote for an Assemblyman back in the '60's, as a young naive activist. If I recall, it died in committee from too many supporters wanting to speak using up all the time. That was a long time ago, maybe things have changed. Let us know how it works out.

I don't see how too many people speaking could have caused the bill to fail. The committee votes regardless of the time frame.
Maybe I didn't understand what you meant

AyatollahGondola
08-11-2012, 8:54 AM
I think that we should not relie on the courts to heavily, especialy the supreme courts as they may be stacked against us in the next few years if the election goes badly.

Most elections have gone badly the past two decades

AyatollahGondola
08-11-2012, 9:12 AM
AyatollahGondola,
I applaud your desire to get involved, I wish I was able to do more than I am. I am not trying to offend you or anything, I just think that the President of an non-profit organization with a good history of working on the political scene would have more of an impact than the average citizen off of the street. Yes, as a citizen you have the right to be heard, but since when do politico's care about one person? It would make you feel good, no doubt, but would it really get anything done besides that?

Occaisonally it does. But it usually involves more than just commentary, and that's what I hope for. A new idea brought forth by someone normally sitting on the sidelines. As far as the president of a non-profit with a good history and all that......We saw that hope dashed in the open carry legislation. We got no help on that one because they didn't agree with it. I'm going to suggest that not every single idea or wish is going to be represented in the 249 legislative arena either. Quite frankly, I have grown a third eye to protect myself from my allies too.
And they, the politicos, do care about one person. They vote and write bills for them all the time, although it's under the guise of some proxy. They don't care about who it affects other than that though, unless you can make it hurt somehow. That again is where I'm hoping for new ideas. I'm not dismissing the work of the heirarchy here, but I'm not blindly trusting a soul anymore

AyatollahGondola
08-11-2012, 9:14 AM
So Wildhawker and CGF have been working with SAF, CAL-FFL, and other organizations on this bill since inception. I would imagine that there is probably a list somewhere of who should speak, if possible, and some talking points that should be covered. Now, say 300 firearm enthusiasts show up in the gallery. Say they present the bill and limit the public to 2-3 speakers or, due to the amount of people, limit the speakers to >1 min. Would it not make more sense to get those specifically chosen for their verbal skills to speak or someone who is out to challenge the status quo? I, for one, would prefer to have Wildhawker be in the stands to present an argument over one of the normal CGN types who, while passionate about this bill and most definitely with their heart in the right place, may not present the argument in the way that it should be presented. We seem to be working against one another rather than with one another. Not saying that a bunch of well dressed people on the steps would not be noticed, just that we need to stick together and work together. Just my $0.02.

from what I understand, Wildhawker and CalGuns consider this unworthy

wildhawker
08-11-2012, 9:43 AM
from what I understand, Wildhawker and CalGuns consider this unworthy

I wouldn't say "unworthy", I would say "net-neutral at best."

-Brandon

M1Kev
08-11-2012, 11:15 AM
@AyatollahGondola, I am not saying put all your eggs in one basket, I just think that we (Gun Owners) cannot seem to work together. Gun Owners of California (GOC) are saying one thing, CGF is saying another, and so on. I am by no means an expert on any of this, but as the old saying goes "United we stand, divided we fall" and all that. Honestly, I had never heard of GOC until a day or so ago (pardon my ignorance) but I do know that CGF was instrumental in getting us the BB in the first place. So we do not have "shall issue" everywhere yet... s**t happens. If stupid things like SB249 did not pop up requiring a full court press to fight we probably would be farther in that arena. I am not putting blind faith into CGF or Wildhawker, however those guys have done more for us than anyone that I am familiar with. They have the experience and the strategy to get things done, remember chess not checkers. This is about winning the war, not the battle. Bold moves must be made, risks must be taken. Some will pan out, some will not. I just think that hundreds of gun owners showing up at the capitol would not necessarily be a good thing. Remember, they refer to us as "crazies." Whether or not those that show put out a good image, the headlines will probably read "Hundreds of gun owning crazies show up at capitol building" or "Racist Calguns.net members try to intimidate the Senate." They are playing every card in their book right now, why give them ammunition. Let those that work within the system represent us at this stage, those that have already earned respect in the Capitol and who are not painted with the general nutcase brush. I understand your frustration, but we need to keep our cool and not play into their fears. Sorry for the long winded response.

bruceflinch
08-11-2012, 12:12 PM
No, Bruce, I'm hoping you and the other do-nothings can cover for me so I can finally get some sleep. You going to the next CRPA meeting?

-Brandon

Still catching Flies with vinegar?
Need Sleep? Is that why you continue to insult other members? Do you have any idea how much more support you would garner, if you weren't so arrogant & insulting? Do you think if you died tomorrow, the whole gun world would come to a stop?

So you do not support going to the Capitol to just show solidarity?

I support the CRPA monetarily through Membership & Donation.

I do not support the CGF monetarily and probably will not as long as you are involved. I may be in the minority but I know I am not alone in those sentiments.

So go ahead & insult me some more Captain Keyboard & prove my point. ;)

sfpcservice
08-11-2012, 12:34 PM
Just don't do what these guys did, keep the guns at home.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg857/scaled.php?server=857&filename=capitolinvaded.jpg&res=landing

I don't see that these armed band of "negros" did anything wrong. The people at fault were the ones under the dome and the voters.

unusedusername
08-11-2012, 1:58 PM
I wouldn't say "unworthy", I would say "net-neutral at best."

-Brandon

This is my understanding as well. We could make things much worse by showing up, but it is unlikely that we can make things better.

The most likely outcome is that the committee members will see a large audience but have no idea which bill the audience is there for as they have no compelling reason to allow people to speak.

Worst case scenario is that some yahoo shows up wearing camo and carrying guns, giving the antis a good argument for banning everything. Even worse, the news media could pick up on it or some overzealous security guard could put the capitol on "lockdown" due to "domestic terrorism". It could even turn out that the 'yahoo' with a gun is an anti in disguise. This outcome is extremely unlikely, but possible.

A less worse possibility is that we show up and make a fuss delaying the golf schedule of the legislators and they pass the bill out of committee to spite us. Remember that these legislators really don't like us.

We have 3 people that work the legislator for us on a day to day basis, H Paul Payne, Ed Worley, and Tom Pedersen. They have not requested that we attend as of my knowledge. If they request it then I will be there.

Until then I am content to let them do their jobs without me getting in their way.

I don't see that these armed band of "negros" did anything wrong. The people at fault were the ones under the dome and the voters.

The armed band of people didn't do anything morally or legally wrong, however they made a strategic error of the worst kind. They did not anticipate that the conservative newspapers would write articles designed to make them look like terrorists. The legislators played up these articles, and were able to ban loaded open carry because of them.

If they had not marched on the capitol then the ban on loaded open carry most likely would have failed at that time.

wildhawker
08-11-2012, 2:14 PM
Still catching Flies with vinegar?
Need Sleep? Is that why you continue to insult other members? Do you have any idea how much more support you would garner, if you weren't so arrogant & insulting? Do you think if you died tomorrow, the whole gun world would come to a stop?

So you do not support going to the Capitol to just show solidarity?

I support the CRPA monetarily through Membership & Donation.

I do not support the CGF monetarily and probably will not as long as you are involved. I may be in the minority but I know I am not alone in those sentiments.

So go ahead & insult me some more Captain Keyboard & prove my point. ;)

Captain keyboard, lol! You must get your talking points from the incomparably-incompetent Tony Montanarella. Perhaps you did just that, and that's a play on his rant from the February CRPA Board meeting.

It's sad that there are people so hung up on their own egos that they won't support real gun rights product because of a single "Captain keyboard".

I must be really powerful to you, otherwise you would just ignore me and support our cause anyway. In any case, it's always fun, Bruce.

-Brandon

Librarian
08-11-2012, 2:53 PM
We have 3 people that work the legislature for us on a day to day basis, H Paul Payne, Ed Worley, and Tom Pedersen. They have not requested that we attend as of my knowledge. If they request it then I will be there.


This seems like wisdom to me.

wildhawker
08-11-2012, 4:14 PM
We have 3 people that work the legislator for us on a day to day basis, H Paul Payne, Ed Worley, and Tom Pedersen. They have not requested that we attend as of my knowledge. If they request it then I will be there.

One correction, Ed works Sacto for NRA and Tom works with Ed for CRPA. HPP is the NRA's "strong safety" here in California.

-Brandon

Wrangler John
08-11-2012, 4:31 PM
I don't see how too many people speaking could have caused the bill to fail. The committee votes regardless of the time frame.
Maybe I didn't understand what you meant

As I said it was a long time ago. There was some kind of technical glitch involving a delay that was relayed to me through our advocacy group. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to attend that day due to other obligations. That was about 1968, so things have faded a bit. Still it was a interesting experience.

stagar15dj
08-11-2012, 4:38 PM
Guys, here's an observation from personal experience. About 30 years ago my wife was a legislative aid for the Minnesota Senate Republican caucus. We were young and poor then, so we only had one car and when the sessions ran late towards the end of the term I spent a lot of time in the gallery waiting to carpool home with my wife.

So anyway... once in a while something that was a hot issue for one group or another would come up, and instead of me and 2 or 3 other lonely souls in the gallery, it would be packed. It did always get the attention of the legislators... BUT.... be careful how you do it. The groups that came in, dressed professionally, sat and watched with polite and quiet attention were effective. There is nothing like dozens of pairs of eyes and ears fixed in 110% attention to make a politician know they are being watched. One night a union-oriented bill came up, and a bunch of rowdy and angry toughs packed the gallery. They thought they were going to be 'enforcers'. They hooted and booed whenever they disagreed and were generally dis-respectful. After two warnings, the gallery was cleared of everyone. The bill did not go well for them -- they did not make a positive impression.

If you decide to go, make your momma proud.


Good advise:79:

LikeAllGuns
08-11-2012, 7:35 PM
I tried to post threads to get people motivated to go to this meeting and guess what happened. Some moderator locked down my thread. Way to go!!!! If this bill passes the fact that we didnt have atleast 300 people there will be one of the reasons. Now I realize why some people say that Gun owners are there own worst enemies.


I second that mods need to help motivate people not shut them down. I just had a thread shut down on the same subjuct!

And people need to stop saying ''going is a waste of time'' IT'S NOT a waste of time.

I will be there and I have never done anything like this. I am stepping out of my comfort zone and stepping up my involvement. I have signed as many petitions as I could find and sent e-mails off to Yee. Now I will go to my first rally. Please step up also.

Thousands and thousands of people need to show up. Your time is more valuable then any donation you could ever make so please show up! If thousands of people show up it will make a difference we need any and all persons to show up August 16th.

Like I mentioned if you own a gun you need to be there. First the government will go after AR-15 and AK style rifles then they will come after your Bolt Action Rifle then your shotgun and on and on.

blazeaglory
08-11-2012, 7:44 PM
@AyatollahGondola, I am not saying put all your eggs in one basket, I just think that we (Gun Owners) cannot seem to work together. Gun Owners of California (GOC) are saying one thing, CGF is saying another, and so on. I am by no means an expert on any of this, but as the old saying goes "United we stand, divided we fall" and all that. Honestly, I had never heard of GOC until a day or so ago (pardon my ignorance) but I do know that CGF was instrumental in getting us the BB in the first place. So we do not have "shall issue" everywhere yet... s**t happens. If stupid things like SB249 did not pop up requiring a full court press to fight we probably would be farther in that arena. I am not putting blind faith into CGF or Wildhawker, however those guys have done more for us than anyone that I am familiar with. They have the experience and the strategy to get things done, remember chess not checkers. This is about winning the war, not the battle. Bold moves must be made, risks must be taken. Some will pan out, some will not. I just think that hundreds of gun owners showing up at the capitol would not necessarily be a good thing. Remember, they refer to us as "crazies." Whether or not those that show put out a good image, the headlines will probably read "Hundreds of gun owning crazies show up at capitol building" or "Racist Calguns.net members try to intimidate the Senate." They are playing every card in their book right now, why give them ammunition. Let those that work within the system represent us at this stage, those that have already earned respect in the Capitol and who are not painted with the general nutcase brush. I understand your frustration, but we need to keep our cool and not play into their fears. Sorry for the long winded response.


Wow. Are you bending over as you type? We have a right to show up to these hearings. We need to show them we are not "crazy". And I have never heard of a news headline like you describe. Why dont you exaggerate a little more there buddy.

supra
08-11-2012, 8:09 PM
The members supporting showing up at the Capital to try to defeat the bill need to remember that just one pro-gun representing in a unprofessional manner will hurt the cause. By posting threads inviting all gun owners to show up there is a good chance you may not be impressed with everyone that attends. As gun owners and supporters of 2nd amendment rights we are a brotherhood; but like every family, there is a good chance the jackass brother in the family will show up to Thanksgiving drunk, say inappropriate things to your wife, and end up making a spectacle of himself.:facepalm:

I will be leaving this fight in the good hands of those that have experience in this arena. If you have never done anything like this before, then maybe leave it to those that have a track record and proven formula for making sure these laws don't get passed or are overturned. Thanks CGF for all you do!

LikeAllGuns
08-11-2012, 8:17 PM
The members supporting showing up at the Capital to try to defeat the bill need to remember that just one pro-gun representing in a unprofessional manner will hurt the cause. By posting threads inviting all gun owners to show up there is a good chance you may not be impressed with everyone that attends. As gun owners and supporters of 2nd amendment rights we are a brotherhood; but like every family, there is a good chance the jackass brother in the family will show up to Thanksgiving drunk, say inappropriate things to your wife, and end up making a spectacle of himself.:facepalm:

I will be leaving this fight in the good hands of those that have experience in this arena. If you have never done anything like this before, then maybe leave it to those that have a track record and proven formula for making sure these laws don't get passed or are overturned. Thanks CGF for all you do!

You have a bad idea ''leave it in the hands of others''..Get involved. Put a tie on and show up!

And yes all gun owners need to be there...Obviously you do not understand what numbers can do and you do not understand how the USA works we have the right to protest!

M1Kev
08-12-2012, 7:39 AM
@likeallguns- Umm, hows about you pull your head out of the sand? Yee has accused Calguns.net members of attacking his race, I am pretty sure that there is a thread somewhere about it. His chief of staff has called gun owners crazy on Twitter and facebook (FYI it is called social media) as well as several news articles where he gave interviews. I think that there is a thread on this one as well. I don't type while bending over BTW, it makes the blood rush to my head causing me to do stupid stuff like insult people expressing an opinion, kind of like you. With your cool attitude and voice of reason you are exactly the person to be representing gun owners in the Capitol. It is apparent that you have no idea how the media can, and will, take whatever you do and spin it to get their message out. The media started this with the BB expose, the media has written many anti articles over the last few weeks. It is not what the politicos will think that worries me, it is what the media will spin the actions to show. But hey, you are the smart guy.

AyatollahGondola
08-12-2012, 8:06 AM
@likeallguns- Umm, hows about you pull your head out of the sand? Yee has accused Calguns.net members of attacking his race, I am pretty sure that there is a thread somewhere about it. His chief of staff has called gun owners crazy on Twitter and facebook (FYI it is called social media) as well as several news articles where he gave interviews. I think that there is a thread on this one as well. I don't type while bending over BTW, it makes the blood rush to my head causing me to do stupid stuff like insult people expressing an opinion, kind of like you. With your cool attitude and voice of reason you are exactly the person to be representing gun owners in the Capitol. It is apparent that you have no idea how the media can, and will, take whatever you do and spin it to get their message out. The media started this with the BB expose, the media has written many anti articles over the last few weeks. It is not what the politicos will think that worries me, it is what the media will spin the actions to show. But hey, you are the smart guy.

With citizens like you, we don't really need the government to suppress free speech anymore. Your way trades one controlled press for another.

M1Kev
08-12-2012, 8:53 AM
Wow, just wow. I never said you can't go, I just don't think it is a good idea. But, this being the internet, I guess I am not allowed an opinion that contradicts the groupthink. My way is that we all work together. If you think that the media will suddenly change their tune because you go to the capitol in a suit, then more power to you. Stuff like this is why I posted earlier that we seem to work against one another rather than together. If SB249 goes through, it will be because we would rather argue over each others opinions rather than work together towards a common goal. You think I don't want to go to Sac and make them hear me? You think that I want this kind of stuff (SB249) to happen time and again? I am just of the opinion that we should present a united front rather than individual efforts. I guess this is what I get for venturing out of the general threads and into the 2A area. If I don't agree down to the smallest detail then I must be wrong and deserve to be insulted. Consider your mission a success.

Librarian
08-12-2012, 11:20 AM
The thread has now drifted off into unacceptable personal interactions.

Note that the thread is not deleted, just closed.

Other threads on this topic are not likely to be any better - kindly do not start any more.

If someone wants to do something organizational about this, PM me and I'll add it to the thread.