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Masada86
08-09-2012, 7:38 AM
At what point does a gun owner pack up and leave a state/city like; CA, NY City, Chicago, DC ect when the gun laws become so strict that owning a gun is practically illegal and the right to self defense is no longer afforded to individuals in these areas? Do you leave? What is that threshold?

This is a hard topic for me to grasp since i don't live in one of the above locations with restrictive laws (AZ) (forgive me if I left some others out) but it came up in conversation with a couple coworkers and I was totally stumped. I didn't have an answer, and didn't know how to address it. I feel that if someone does not have the conviction to act on their beliefs at some point, then they really don't believe in that thing at all. I see people here stand up and are fighting for their rights and beliefs so that's why I'm asking the question here.

I believe the majority of gun owners want to see the right/sport grow and enjoy it legally, but most of us understand it's a right not a privilege. So if you are so constrained in your ability to exercise your right, do you go somewhere you can?

I appreciate the responses :)

383green
08-09-2012, 7:48 AM
This is the front line in the war for our civil rights. I am here to fight, and to win.

DannyInSoCal
08-09-2012, 7:56 AM
You missed one:

In a chalk outline surrounded by hundreds of spent brass from defending your Constitutional rights

mag360
08-09-2012, 8:01 AM
Now it will likely be when i cant legally own a semi auto rifle of any type. Ill move if sac tries to take away our carry permits.

db42
08-09-2012, 8:05 AM
As soon as my business picks up enough that I don't need my regular job, I'm moving to Nevada.

California's gun laws, taxation, and idiotic legislature are killing this state.

1859sharps
08-09-2012, 8:07 AM
where are you going to go?

So called "free" states are just places where you go to get a break, but they aren't "safe". IF California falls, "they" WILL turn their eyes to the "free" states.

Also, "free" states are only as "free" as the federal law, if nothing is happening at the state level...yet.

you can run, but you can't hide. running is retreating. running is surrendering. running is giving up.

A MUCH, MUCH better option is to stand and "fight". Use the political system and courts and make it so un worth the effort to pass gun control that "they" are always on the defense, not "attack". Make so "they" are having to "fight" the repeal of NFA, verse us having to fight to keep bullet buttons.

SilverTauron
08-09-2012, 8:11 AM
At what point does a gun owner pack up and leave a state/city like; CA, NY City, Chicago, DC ect when the gun laws become so strict that owning a gun is practically illegal and the right to self defense is no longer afforded to individuals in these areas? Do you leave? What is that threshold?

This is a hard topic for me to grasp since i don't live in one of the above locations with restrictive laws (AZ) (forgive me if I left some others out) but it came up in conversation with a couple coworkers and I was totally stumped. I didn't have an answer, and didn't know how to address it. I feel that if someone does not have the conviction to act on their beliefs at some point, then they really don't believe in that thing at all. I see people here stand up and are fighting for their rights and beliefs so that's why I'm asking the question here.

I believe the majority of gun owners want to see the right/sport grow and enjoy it legally, but most of us understand it's a right not a privilege. So if you are so constrained in your ability to exercise your right, do you go somewhere you can?

I appreciate the responses :)

I was born in California and moved to Chicago at a young age, so I spent the first 22 years of my life in liberal paradise.What stands out to me about that period of time is just how ignorant I was about the Constitution and civil rights in general.Police in northeastern Illinois are nosy and about as friendly as the KGB, and the Democratic government passed laws with or without the consent of the citizenry. As far as I was concerned the idea of civil rights began and ended with anti-discrimination and free speech, since those were the only ones Id ever been exposed to in my formitive years in Illinois.

Then I joined the military, got stationed in a state which abides by the ENTIRE Constitution, and I realized what the heck I was missing. After living in a state which doesn't care what guns I own, what magazines I have, where I responsibly shoot outdoors, what ammo or how much of it I buy, or whether or not I carry a weapon concealed in public, I could never stand to live in Chicago again.

For me, its a quality of life issue. Legal mumbo-jumbo aside, gun ownership is realistically a *privlidge* granted at the discretion of the authorities in places like Chicago, CA, NJ, and other states.By extension that attitude defines the citizen-government dynamic everywhere else in that society . Just like Communist Cuba, you don't live and work in Chicago as an individual with rights so much as you are a subject to be regulated, ruled, and taxed with appropriate privileges granted by the benevolent & corrupt elite of City Hall. The Constitution really is void in anti-gun political zones-not just the 2nd Amendment, but all the rest of them too.


That way of life is un-American ,I refuse to go back to it after living in the USA where police are civil & honest, guns are affordable and not regulated, and the individual man and woman is empowered to decide what happiness is for themselves. Gun rights are simply a barometer to measure the direction a population is taking, as such if a government doesn't trust you to own guns they won't trust you to do anything else without forced compliance.

SilverTauron
08-09-2012, 8:20 AM
where are you going to go?

So called "free" states are just places where you go to get a break, but they aren't "safe". IF California falls, "they" WILL turn their eyes to the "free" states.

Also, "free" states are only as "free" as the federal law, if nothing is happening at the state level...yet.

you can run, but you can't hide. running is retreating. running is surrendering. running is giving up.

A MUCH, MUCH better option is to stand and "fight". Use the political system and courts and make it so un worth the effort to pass gun control that "they" are always on the defense, not "attack". Make so "they" are having to "fight" the repeal of NFA, verse us having to fight to keep bullet buttons.

Sorry , but this idea is false.

The advancement of gun rights over recent years has been driven by multiple states enacting laws to recognize the RKBA via shall issue CCW. None of these expanded carry laws have originated from the Federal level. Rather, each state has decided by its population to recognize the rights already afforded to them as living beings who are entitled to defend themselves.

For the most part, RTC has evolved on a state by state basis. As such, the idea that if California chooses to outlaw the RKBA it will somehow spread like a virus to the rest of America is foolish. Sure, anti-rights states like Illinois and NJ will follow CA down the path of progressive hell, but those places despise individual liberty anyhow. Just because California regulates guns into criminality doesn't mean Texas or Colorado will be in a hurry to follow.

Federal? Well, we must always watch those guys. Washington D.C. won't rest until thinking about firearms becomes a terrorist crime, but that's always been a risk since a central government was established 'back in the day'.

DVSmith
08-09-2012, 8:27 AM
When I can get a better job someplace else. Other than that, my priorities are family before guns. Sorry guys, may rub some the wrong way, but as much as I am pro 2A and love my guns, I have to feed the kids first.

Mesa Tactical
08-09-2012, 8:32 AM
When the ocean recedes about 100 miles, and the mountains erode down to about 2,000 feet elevation.

morfeeis
08-09-2012, 8:34 AM
I'm already set to leave in just over 18 months so now!

tuolumnejim
08-09-2012, 8:34 AM
You need to ad "The PRK passed that point forty years ago" to the list.

roll2li
08-09-2012, 8:50 AM
Sorry , but this idea is false.

The advancement of gun rights over recent years has been driven by multiple states enacting laws to recognize the RKBA via shall issue CCW. None of these expanded carry laws have originated from the Federal level. Rather, each state has decided by its population to recognize the rights already afforded to them as living beings who are entitled to defend themselves.

For the most part, RTC has evolved on a state by state basis. As such, the idea that if California chooses to outlaw the RKBA it will somehow spread like a virus to the rest of America is foolish. Sure, anti-rights states like Illinois and NJ will follow CA down the path of progressive hell, but those places despise individual liberty anyhow. Just because California regulates guns into criminality doesn't mean Texas or Colorado will be in a hurry to follow.

Federal? Well, we must always watch those guys. Washington D.C. won't rest until thinking about firearms becomes a terrorist crime, but that's always been a risk since a central government was established 'back in the day'.

I'd have to disagree the part about California's regulations spreading like a virus. I hail from Colorado, and I have watched the gun rights and budget sanity slip away in the last ten years due to an influx of companies and out of state transplants bringing their failed policies to my state.

From the fiasco of the Proposition measures (passing at simple majority, when it used to be 2/3s to prevent knee jerk legislation) bringing about the disaster of our Taxpayer Bill of Rights (tax rates fixed with economic growth) along with our mandate to increase primary education every year now squeezing out our universities to the city of Denver passing an assault weapons ban within city limits over the state pre-emption law (held up in federal court), we're feeling the squeeze in the Centinniel State. I've seen my state move from being a consistent red state like our neighbors to the north and west, to now being picked on Karl Rove's map as a likely blue state for this election.

I'm commited to help the fight here because I feel the tactics employed will help serve other states; because as California goes, the exodus won't just be limited to people who think like us, it will include everyone else who wants their entitlements without having to pay for them. Since they can vote they will bring that virus forward.

Farrier-1
08-09-2012, 8:54 AM
I'm relocating my business in less than 5 years. Lot/land is already bought, . . . . and paid for. Tic Toc, Tic Toc.

Uxi
08-09-2012, 8:55 AM
Any of the above?

Carnivore
08-09-2012, 9:00 AM
where are you going to go?

So called "free" states are just places where you go to get a break, but they aren't "safe". IF California falls, "they" WILL turn their eyes to the "free" states.

Also, "free" states are only as "free" as the federal law, if nothing is happening at the state level...yet.

you can run, but you can't hide. running is retreating. running is surrendering. running is giving up.

A MUCH, MUCH better option is to stand and "fight". Use the political system and courts and make it so un worth the effort to pass gun control that "they" are always on the defense, not "attack". Make so "they" are having to "fight" the repeal of NFA, verse us having to fight to keep bullet buttons.As others have said and in this state you will never be able to have suppresses, full auto etc so as soon as I can move I am an Arizonian. Doesn't mean I won't still contribute to Calguns and help fight the good fight anywhere and it isn't giving up but getting what I can in my life time is as important as getting all we can for the future too.

domino
08-09-2012, 9:01 AM
We would be better off not leaving in voting to make CA PART TIME LEGISLATOR STATE !!!!!!! The politicians hate it whenever this is brought up, they wouldnt get perks, months off at a time every year and be paid for it, it would be harder for them to steal from the people and they might actually have to get a damn job!

OleCuss
08-09-2012, 9:04 AM
When both my kids live outside California, I'm ready to retire, I can afford the requisite property and structures.

Oppression in the firearms realm isn't even a part of the picture. We're winning and I'm not thinking of defeat.

POLICESTATE
08-09-2012, 9:07 AM
If I leave California it will be because the economic situation is untenable. For me it's getting close. Still have to find a job elsewhere though, no sense in moving somewhere with no job.

5thgen4runner
08-09-2012, 9:11 AM
I'm leaving the second I can you guys can enjoy your "great weather". My last 30 patients didn't speak a ****ing single word of English...

rkt88edmo
08-09-2012, 9:13 AM
CA Uber Alles - until we break off and join Atlantis in the watery depths.

Striker
08-09-2012, 9:24 AM
At what point does a gun owner pack up and leave a state/city like; CA, NY City, Chicago, DC ect when the gun laws become so strict that owning a gun is practically illegal and the right to self defense is no longer afforded to individuals in these areas? Do you leave? What is that threshold?

This is a hard topic for me to grasp since i don't live in one of the above locations with restrictive laws (AZ) (forgive me if I left some others out) but it came up in conversation with a couple coworkers and I was totally stumped. I didn't have an answer, and didn't know how to address it. I feel that if someone does not have the conviction to act on their beliefs at some point, then they really don't believe in that thing at all. I see people here stand up and are fighting for their rights and beliefs so that's why I'm asking the question here.

I believe the majority of gun owners want to see the right/sport grow and enjoy it legally, but most of us understand it's a right not a privilege. So if you are so constrained in your ability to exercise your right, do you go somewhere you can?

I appreciate the responses :)

I think your parameters are too narrow for the subject. Firearms laws in the places you mentioned are restrictive, but that's really only part of the equation to move elsewhere and a small part at that. If you're unemployed right now and living in California, this might be a good time to leave. Because of the firearms laws? Partially, but mostly because California has become a restrictive state in many ways. Businesses move their operations elsewhere because the regulations and fees here are ridiculous. The first rule of business is of course, if you can't turn a profit, something has to change. If that profit is getting taken through government fees, then location has to change. The reason the economy in Texas is doing better than California right now is because there far fewer restrictions and fees. Texas wants businesses to move there and stay there. California apparently just wants to bleed them dry.

My point is that if you're unemployed or struggling financially, this might be a good time to look elsewhere for other opportunities. If the firearms laws happen to be less restrictive, that's a bonus, but ultimately it's a better/richer life for you and your family that should trigger the change.

If on the other hand, you're doing well in one of those places and you and your family have a good, rich life; I don't think restrictive firearms laws are a good reason to give that up and move.

XD40SUBBIE
08-09-2012, 9:28 AM
Leaving only because the government oppresses us is cowardly. Leaving also hurts the others that wishes to stand and fight. Bottomline, to leave just because of the oppressive stance the state government has on the 2A would be un-American. Stand and fight to the bitter end - cold dead hands, my friends. Cold dead hands...

model63
08-09-2012, 9:32 AM
We would be better off not leaving in voting to make CA PART TIME LEGISLATOR STATE !!!!!!! The politicians hate it whenever this is brought up, they wouldnt get perks, months off at a time every year and be paid for it, it would be harder for them to steal from the people and they might actually have to get a damn job!

I think there is a lot of support for this... folks just don't know it or think of it as an option. It just has to be brought forth as a ballot measure and I truly think it is a no brainer as their is exhaustion from both sides (or all sides I suppose). Starve them of doing anything expect passing a budget so that most of this crap tied to infringement of our liberties won't get a chance to get brought up.

hornswaggled
08-09-2012, 9:33 AM
Never. The antis can leave.

hornswaggled
08-09-2012, 9:35 AM
The free staters are in the rear with the gear. F- them.

arslin
08-09-2012, 9:40 AM
I can not stand the heat. I can not stand the cold. I have an extreme intolerance for humidity. I have lived here my entire life. My parents have lived her all of their lives... They will not make me run. This is my state.

Masada86
08-09-2012, 9:55 AM
Look I don't want this to become an CA vs the rest of the US argument. The reality is some will stay and some won't. I'm really enjoying the diverse answer here and it helps me get a sense what is going on.

emcon5
08-09-2012, 10:17 AM
November. But it has been in work for a long time, and the gun laws are only part of it.

The desire of Sacramento to try and control by legislation every aspect of day to day life is what did it for me (example (http://www.lowesforpros.com/motion-sensors-move-indoors)), plus the cost of living and taxes.

I can buy a brand new 3000 sq ft house in Reno for less than the cost of a 2 bedroom townhouse in the Bay area, and pay no state income tax, less gas tax, less sales tax, less property tax, and have friendly neighbors.

domino
08-09-2012, 10:25 AM
Today I received my renewal from the NRA. I for once finally wrote them a letter telling them they will not be getting my money anymore and it will be going to local or state 2A groups that will actually use money here, file lawsuits and actually fight the cause. Seriously what has the NRA done for CA lately? They steer clear of this state and I am tired of it. If they put as much effort into this state as they do other things then we might actually be able to vote out the antis and vote in common sense. I just for one feel like they ignore and dont pay our state enough attention. All they really do in my opinion is send out a blast that says contact your rep and tell them your opposed to sb 249 or whatever the measure is. And while you are at it now is the time to give us more money and you get a free handbag and knife made in china that will fall apart with one trip out to the range.... I give now to CGF!

dls
08-09-2012, 10:35 AM
As soon as retire.
There's too many good paying jobs here,for me.

My firearms may leave the State though.;)

Bruceisontarget
08-09-2012, 10:46 AM
I'm physically here, but mentally already gone. Family obligations have me pinned here for a few years. I was born and raised in Northern California. It was paradise growing up.
I remember when I was 12 and I was shooting my Crossman air rifle in an empty field near my home. A police officer stopped by to question me. Damn I thought, I'm going away in hand coughs and I'm gonna get the belt from my Dad. The officer instead made some suggestions on making my activity a little safer (he moved my target to a plywood backstop) and gave me lessons on marksmanship. He even helped sight in the new Tasco scope I mounted. Imagine that? That was California thirty five years ago. If this happened today, the kid would be facing a SWAT team.
The worst thing about California now, is the social engineering that is being implemented. Stack and Pack housing is going up everywhere next to mass transit hubs to deliver workers to job centers. Single family homes will be a thing of the past and small business are dying out. Basically, they want Californians to live like the Japanese, scurrying to work and living for the big Corp.. Sorry, I ain't gonna live like that.

I'm moving to Idaho.

dantodd
08-09-2012, 10:50 AM
If you move the bad guys win. They pass these laws to kill th gun culture and leaving the state just helps themin the quest.

CA is a "stand your ground" state as far as gun rights is concerned.

Not that leaving the state for other opportunities is a terrible thing, but moving out of state is exactly what the anti-gun crowd wants you to do.

njineermike
08-09-2012, 10:52 AM
I left Chicago years ago due to ridiculousness in the legislation. I will leave here as soon as my son is old enough to travel on his own.

leadstorm
08-09-2012, 11:01 AM
My decision will center around my kid(s) - i.e.: at what point do I not want them to grow up and develop in this environment any longer?

One piece of that will be guns and the surrounding issues as they relate to my kid(s).

My son is not of school age yet...

It is amazing the impact of craziness applied over time. I grew up and went to school in free states, but have lived here for a while. It's always a incrementally more strange to go back and do things with guns that we can't here. I've actually become used to the nonsense on some level, and that's just sad.

Uxi
08-09-2012, 11:20 AM
Everyone has an ultimate line at which enough would be enough.

Most of the general public won't care if they disarmed by the Statists promising security in exchange for liberty. Curious what those saying they wouldn't leave at all would do if there was the worst case scenario, say, a full semi-auto ban. Completely hypothetical and unlikely but the alternatives at that point are surrender the weapons, move or sell them out of State, or become an outlaw (blatant or clandestine). I imagine there'd be more people becoming clandestine outlaws and burying them or just leaving them in the safe, etc than those who would either surrender or leave.

locktime
08-09-2012, 11:24 AM
The poll needs one more option:

- Already left

Masada86
08-09-2012, 11:30 AM
The poll needs one more option:

- Already left

Oh that would have been a good one to add, I didn't think of that. Darn I can't edit it now.

fencekutter
08-09-2012, 11:33 AM
I'm already sending resumes to recruiters in TX. Not just for 2A reasons, but most of my wife's and my family have already left, so we'd like to live closer to them.

duane_black
08-09-2012, 12:24 PM
If I leave California it will be because the economic situation is untenable. For me it's getting close. Still have to find a job elsewhere though, no sense in moving somewhere with no job.

This...

Already did though, I was priced out. Been in WA for a month. Have a CPL, love it here so far. Not sure I would have moved just because of guns. For me it was a ton of different reasons. Economic being number 1.

If anyone ever makes it this far north, hit up the Clark County Sherriffs dept and get a CPL. They will issue to out of state residents ( Had one when I was a CA resident ). It was the single best experience I have ever had with government in my entire life. I put 30 mintues into the meter and came out with 17 left. I did have the paperwork already filled out though. This included being electronically fingerprinted.

Lots of cool things about CA though, its not all bad. Politicians never seemed to represent one single ideal I had, not one. Then we elected Gavin and Kamala and I almost had a stroke. :D

Taxation without representation... I seem to recall 13 colonies having a similar issue with a certain kingdom.

SilverTauron
08-09-2012, 12:33 PM
If you move the bad guys win. They pass these laws to kill th gun culture and leaving the state just helps themin the quest.

CA is a "stand your ground" state as far as gun rights is concerned.

Not that leaving the state for other opportunities is a terrible thing, but moving out of state is exactly what the anti-gun crowd wants you to do.

In 2008, the last presidential election year, there was a spike in the number of registered voters, which benefitted Democrats most and Republicans least. Our surveys indicate that among those we consider most likely to vote, 44% are Democrats, 35% are Republicans, and 17% are independents.

http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_show.asp?i=526

That ship has already sailed.
The path of preserving gun rights in anti-gun strongholds will boil down to getting Democrats and left-leaning people to the gun range. Its a proven method of changing minds, but the downside is it will take decades to get any detectable results.

dantodd
08-09-2012, 12:52 PM
The path of preserving gun rights in anti-gun strongholds will boil down to getting Democrats and left-leaning people to the gun range. Its a proven method of changing minds, but the downside is it will take decades to get any detectable results.

And who will take these non-traditional shooters to the range and get them involved? If gunnies move out the antis win.

The War Wagon
08-09-2012, 12:55 PM
THANKFULLY, I've never lived in a state so bad, that I had to find out! I've never NOT lived in a Class III/NFA legal state!

SilverTauron
08-09-2012, 1:11 PM
And who will take these non-traditional shooters to the range and get them involved? If gunnies move out the antis win.

The anti's can enact and pass legislation almost by fiat in CA given the voting base. They've already WON the fight to control the government.Every law abiding gun owner in CA could move out RIGHT NOW, and the legislature wouldn't even notice.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/06/28/states-with-the-most-guns.html

44, California
Population: 36,961,664
NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 5,444



Now is the time to spread the word about the 2A, file the necessary lawsuits, and wait.

It wasn't overnight that CA sunk into its current state, and it will take time to undo the damage.In the meantime, its only reasonable to realize that some people don't have 20 years to wait around for the Second Coming of the Second Amendment to arrive in California.

advocatusdiaboli
08-09-2012, 3:36 PM
In order to record my response, the poll meeds to account for other reasons for leaving, in my circumstance it is ever increasing tax-burden to support a Greek/Spain-style welfare state while delivering less to me for the increased burden. Given the political makeup of the state, I see little chance of reversing the trend before we careen off a fiscal cliff sometime hence. Once our children are off to college, we'll become residents of OR or WA and I'll have my rights back as well. Whether we keep our property here or not will depend on the carrying cost but it is becoming less and less likely.

adampolo13
08-09-2012, 4:49 PM
Been here 14 months, we are leaving in 10 months. My wife's contract ends June 1, 2013 and we have already decided to move back east. Has nothing to do with 2A, we want to raise our kids near her parents. It also doesn't hurt we are moving to a "shall issue state"

sreiter
08-09-2012, 4:59 PM
You missed one:

In a chalk outline surrounded by hundreds of spent brass from defending your Constitutional rights

missed another - I'm ready to go now.

bergmen
08-09-2012, 5:08 PM
Born here 62 years ago and roots run deep. Never even began to think of my self as "any-other-state(n)".

Dan

jonzer77
08-09-2012, 5:09 PM
Sorry , but this idea is false.

The advancement of gun rights over recent years has been driven by multiple states enacting laws to recognize the RKBA via shall issue CCW. None of these expanded carry laws have originated from the Federal level. Rather, each state has decided by its population to recognize the rights already afforded to them as living beings who are entitled to defend themselves.

For the most part, RTC has evolved on a state by state basis. As such, the idea that if California chooses to outlaw the RKBA it will somehow spread like a virus to the rest of America is foolish. Sure, anti-rights states like Illinois and NJ will follow CA down the path of progressive hell, but those places despise individual liberty anyhow. Just because California regulates guns into criminality doesn't mean Texas or Colorado will be in a hurry to follow.

Federal? Well, we must always watch those guys. Washington D.C. won't rest until thinking about firearms becomes a terrorist crime, but that's always been a risk since a central government was established 'back in the day'.

Yup. It all started with Florida back in the late 80's and now we have 42 states with shall issue LTC. LTC spreading to the states has empowered people and now they realize that the old lies of the gun grabbers are indeed false.

spetsnaz
08-09-2012, 5:46 PM
Once the family gets settled or my job/school is done im out. Im not going to wait to leave before they try to outlaw guns.

NovaTodd
08-09-2012, 6:09 PM
I saw the writing on the wall after the 2010 election. Nothing but more taxes, falling home values, and more anti-gun legislation.
Moved East after being in CA for almost 30 years and watching the decline.
I also wanted to ensure my kids had decent opprotunities for schools and to experience the things that I did growing-up.

Shall issue CCW licence was a bonus - take the class, wait 60 days and go pick it up. Bullet butons and magazine blocks came out the 1st evening outside of CA.

nicoroshi
08-09-2012, 6:14 PM
Honestly for me guns are not even a contributing factor if/when I make any decisions on where I will live.
To put it bluntly: There are far more important things in life than the guns I own.
A well paying job so that I may support my family.
Allowing my kids to go through their education within a single school district so that they have a chance to have lifelong friendships like I did.
Being close to the doctors for my wife's struggle against cancer.
Remaining close to my family that makes CA their home.

That being said I was born, and raised in Northern CA. It is my home state. I hate the stupid laws imposed on us. I will stand my ground, and continue to fight to regain my beloved home state from the idiocy of the legislators on many levels (state economy, schooling, and of course the dumb, and ineffective gun laws).

I say we force the legislators that would ruin CA further to leave, and we vote in those that will help us repair the damage that already has been done here.

nicki
08-09-2012, 8:32 PM
The issue is bigger than just gun rights, it is maintaining our sytem of ordered liberty and a government that operates under "consent of the governed".

The offensive move for gun rights not only in the court of law, but the court of public opinion is just getting started.

The reality is the MSM has not been able to get the traction with stories of mass shootings that they could in the past. The public is numb.

For those of you who are history buffs, California is our "Stalingrad", the legislature and the anti gun forces are the NAZIs and we are the Russians fighting for our homeland.

Things are going to get ugly, but the more the antis push us, the more they screw the Democratic party nationwide.

The tide shifted with Heller/MacDonald, granted we were getting a lot of BS from the lower courts, but all that is going to do is lead to stronger Supreme court rulings for us.

The concerns with all SCOTUS gun cases is Justice Kennedy, at least that is Alan Gura's read. Now that we have had close to 4 years where the lower courts are basically avoiding ruling on the 2nd amendment, the SCOTUS probably will go stronger for individual rights.

Heller 2 was an interesting read, the dissent was a far better written brief.

The appeals court did exactly the opposite of what the SCOTUS told them to do.

The Heller 2 case is a mistake IMHO not because the case doesn't have merit, rather we are dealing with a hostile judicicary.

Nicki

Don29palms
08-09-2012, 9:02 PM
When my yougest daughter graduates high school I'm out of this communist gulag! 5 more years. The gun laws are just a small part of the laws that take away our freedoms. it won't be long before this state is completely broke. The damage has been done and I sincerely doubt if can ever be repaired.

dfletcher
08-09-2012, 9:05 PM
There are reasons in addition to gun control to leave CA.

The high taxes, the general left wing politics, the nanny state - really, what can you say about a state that bounces its Fish & Game chief for legally shooting a catamount on an out of state hunting trip? And it costs me less to get Cuban cigars sent from Australia than buying plain old Central American stuff in CA.

OR, ID or back to NH will be my retirement state in a dozen years, not CA.

wjc
08-09-2012, 9:10 PM
As stated previously there are many other reasons.

Plus, I really want my cabin in South Dakota.

Working on my exit strategy now for 2015.

wjc
08-09-2012, 9:10 PM
As stated previously there are many other reasons.

Plus, I really want my cabin in South Dakota.

Working on my exit strategy now for 2015.

oldrifle
08-09-2012, 9:33 PM
We plan to be out in a few years. It's becoming pretty clear that California doesn't want people like us here. They can do without my tax dollars and enjoy their rampant crime, debt and social decay.

RMP91
08-09-2012, 9:44 PM
What if you were planning to leave CA since a long time ago?

I always wanted to live in Vegas or near the Grand Canyon, life-long dream.

Even if California was the "free-est" state in the nation, I'd still move. There's places I want to go, and staying in CA ain't gonna accomplish that.

AndrewMendez
08-09-2012, 9:48 PM
This reminds me of sitting in a house with a broken AC. It's boiling....just burning inside, and you are sure you will soon pass out to heat exhaustion.
Do you stop and think....F it...I'm going to buy another house, or do you open the windows and turn the fans on?
Brick by Brick, we will restore the state to her glory.

titleist16
08-09-2012, 10:24 PM
Fow me I'm pretty much already at the point of wanting to leave. I plan on getting out of here in a year or so, funds permiting. Regardless of whether SB249 and other bills get passed now or not it's only a matter of time before this state keeps taking away our rights little by little. On top of the fact that the state is broke, taxes and expenses keep climbing, our rights and freedoms are constantly getting taken away, and you just can't afford to live here. In my opinion the only decent thing about this place is the weather but it's not worth it to live here.

curtisfong
08-09-2012, 10:39 PM
I'm no coward. I'll stay and fight.

nicki
08-09-2012, 10:47 PM
California is one of the main states the war for gun rights will be fought.

Since the 1980's, we have been where stupid gun laws start, so here is where they must end.

Overall gun ownership has been a "white conservative republican thing", but of course that has been changing, just look at our membership.

We are starting the gun rights are civil rights and we will have a struggle just like the civil rights movement did in the south during the 1960's.

The issue is far more than just guns, the deeper issue IMHO is the whole foundation that our government operates under "consent of the governed".

"Consent of the governed" means "nothing" if the governed don't have the means to revoke their consent and enforce it.

Some will argue that we have "elections" and say they think that is good enough. Anyone who would argue that is clueless about things called "election fraud".

They never heard of "Diebold" electronic voting.

Even if the election is "honest", sometimes the population will elect somebody bad and if you are in a "targeted minority" watch out, because the translation of "democracy" is "mob rule".

The first amendment's peaceful political rights at this point are effective because we have the means to resort to violence to enforce our rights should our government become controlled by criminals and we are forced to restore an legitimate government by force.

This is more than just our guns guys, it is our very freedom.
That is why we have to stand our ground.

Sure you can run to another state, then what, when things go bad there, run to another and another.

There are many reasons people will bail from Cali, my response is let's fix things here.

The truth is the amount of people who are actively involved in any political activity is small, it is less than 10 percent of the population, so we have the numbers.

Nicki

phrogg111
08-09-2012, 11:12 PM
I shouldn't have to leave, or move to a different state, to exercise a constitutional right.

There is no privilege to keep and bear arms. End of story.

More AR-15s were purchased last year than any other rifle. More AR-15s were purchased last year than shotguns and revolvers combined, if I'm not mistaken. The only type of gun that outsold AR-15s was semi-automatic pistols. AR-15s and all other semi automatic rifles combined outsold semi-automatic pistols.

What I'm trying to get at is that there's too many people with guns for guns to be banned, ever.

Also, I dunno if you guys knew this - seems like OP clearly didn't - the ONLY guns that the 2nd amendment covers are those that are good for killing people. If the gun is ONLY good for hunting, than it's not protected by the 2nd amendment.

The 2nd amendment isn't about hunting, or target shooting - it's about justifiable homicide. That's a fact.

mossy
08-10-2012, 1:32 AM
soon as school is done and i can find a good job out of state i am gone. my sunny optimism for CA being a free state is just about gone. the courts cant strike down the laws fast enough. and the dems here know they can do whatever they want. if the NRA was mor active here maybe things would be different, i dont really know though. i am tired of my home state trying to turn me into a felon one day then asking me for tax money the next. i will miss the bay area weather though.

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 1:35 AM
Only cowards cut and run.

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 1:36 AM
This reminds me of sitting in a house with a broken AC. It's boiling....just burning inside, and you are sure you will soon pass out to heat exhaustion.
Do you stop and think....F it...I'm going to buy another house, or do you open the windows and turn the fans on?
Brick by Brick, we will restore the state to her glory.

Amen!

Wherryj
08-10-2012, 8:08 AM
where are you going to go?

So called "free" states are just places where you go to get a break, but they aren't "safe". IF California falls, "they" WILL turn their eyes to the "free" states.

Also, "free" states are only as "free" as the federal law, if nothing is happening at the state level...yet.

you can run, but you can't hide. running is retreating. running is surrendering. running is giving up.

A MUCH, MUCH better option is to stand and "fight". Use the political system and courts and make it so un worth the effort to pass gun control that "they" are always on the defense, not "attack". Make so "they" are having to "fight" the repeal of NFA, verse us having to fight to keep bullet buttons.

True, although Texas still feels it has the right to leave the union. Whether the feds believe that or not, Texans do. Texas seems to safest harbor. Attempting to take their guns will probably start Civil War part two.

Nick Justice
08-10-2012, 8:13 AM
WWII: Winston Churchill vowed to defend his island, whatever the cost may be. He never gave up.

They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

hatidua
08-10-2012, 10:00 AM
I wish all of you still in CA good luck with the various laws proposed for you by your politicians. I was born there, raised there, and married there. I left California in 1991, life goes on.

vantec08
08-10-2012, 10:12 AM
CA politicians are doing exactly what they were voted in to do - - represent constituents. There will ALWAYS be politicians who offer the Lesser Choice, the lowest denominator. Its their trade-off to become "empowered." Many of us who dont follow the herd are so far out of mainstream CA it isnt funny. We have obligations and commitments here and simply endure. When to leave? when the obligations and commitments are done.

SilverTauron
08-10-2012, 11:08 AM
WWII: Winston Churchill vowed to defend his island, whatever the cost may be. He never gave up.

They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands.


An excellent analogy, as Winston Churchill's valiant defense of Britain led to a nation which disarmed itself willingly.

Calzona
08-10-2012, 11:16 AM
I can never leave. I work in entertainment and this is where most of the work is. I guess I can go to NY, but you know how it is there.

I am in this fight for the long haul.

Dreaded Claymore
08-10-2012, 12:59 PM
There's an option missing from the poll. "When you can afford to." For most people, that means "never." Wait, I guess it is on the poll after all then. :(

Xingu
08-10-2012, 1:17 PM
The free staters are in the rear with the gear. F- them.


Don't hate those that want freedom and gain it by escaping slavery.

10mm
08-10-2012, 1:32 PM
Right now:cool:

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 2:28 PM
Don't hate those that want freedom and gain it by escaping slavery.

"Slavery?" What "slavery?"

I don't like the fact that some guns/magazines are currently banned in CA. But "slavery?" No. That's pure bunkum.

I have a very large number of shotguns, rifles, pistol and revolvers. At least half are legacy arms -- great grandfather, grandfather, great uncles, father, uncle -- and ALL Californians.

While hyperbole sells to some, it won't sell to me...

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 2:30 PM
An excellent analogy, as Winston Churchill's valiant defense of Britain led to a nation which disarmed itself willingly.

It also kept at least half the world from becoming Nazis. Next?

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 2:33 PM
True, although Texas still feels it has the right to leave the union. Whether the feds believe that or not, Texans do. Texas seems to safest harbor. Attempting to take their guns will probably start Civil War part two.

Texas is a state of the union. Get over it already... :rolleyes:

SilverTauron
08-10-2012, 2:44 PM
It also kept at least half the world from becoming Nazis. Next?

Im not going to indulge your desire for a history lesson. The situation of California is very different from that of WWII Britain. Unlike the 1940s Britian, 2012 California for the most part could care less about gun rights.

The numbers tell the tale;in the United States of America even Democrats support gun rights. Why? Because one of the few common denominators of the voting base is that everyone owns guns.

In California, the numbers are quite clear-RKBA minded gun owners are so small of a fraction of the voting base that the CA residents on here may as well live in Alaska , for all the real world influence the membership has on the government.The value of your vote and perspective on the Constitution has the same worth in CA as it does outside of it-that is to say, none.

You all say moving out is retreating from the field of battle. I say the war ended a long time ago for gun rights in CA, just as it has in most anti-gun strongholds. The key to victory now is not in charging a row of tanks with a snub nose revolver. Slow, persistent work in the courts and changing minds of people regarding gun rights is the only way forward now.The flag of the opposition flies strong in Sacramento, just like it does in Honolulu and Chicago.

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 2:51 PM
Im not going to indulge your desire for a history lesson. The situation of California is very different from that of WWII Britain. Unlike the 1940s Britian, 2012 California for the most part could care less about gun rights.

The numbers tell the tale;in the United States of America even Democrats support gun rights. Why? Because one of the few common denominators of the voting base is that everyone owns guns.

In California, the numbers are quite clear-RKBA minded gun owners are so small of a fraction of the voting base that the CA residents on here may as well live in Alaska , for all the real world influence the membership has on the government.The value of your vote and perspective on the Constitution has the same worth in CA as it does outside of it-that is to say, none.

You all say moving out is retreating from the field of battle. I say the war ended a long time ago for gun rights in CA, just as it has in most anti-gun strongholds. The key to victory now is not in charging a row of tanks with a snub nose revolver. Slow, persistent work in the courts and changing minds of people regarding gun rights is the only way forward now.The flag of the opposition flies strong in Sacramento, just like it does in Honolulu and Chicago.

Like it or not it was the UK that kept Europe from going Nazi. Russia couldn't have stopped Germany on her own and the USA would not have gotten involved if the UK had pulled a France.

Your comment was misplaced. I'm not going to comment on what you wrote above because I didn't read past the first insulting sentance.

NoHeavyHitter
08-10-2012, 2:54 PM
I may never fully leave. At least not if I can't sell my properties with the market the way it is. I am going to make my primary residence in Nevada but still probably spend a few months out of the year in CA.

masayako
08-10-2012, 2:55 PM
I ain't gonna leave my home just because some ****heads screw **** up. I am here to stay and resist.

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 2:59 PM
Honestly for me guns are not even a contributing factor if/when I make any decisions on where I will live.
To put it bluntly: There are far more important things in life than the guns I own.
A well paying job so that I may support my family.
Allowing my kids to go through their education within a single school district so that they have a chance to have lifelong friendships like I did.
Being close to the doctors for my wife's struggle against cancer.
Remaining close to my family that makes CA their home.

That being said I was born, and raised in Northern CA. It is my home state. I hate the stupid laws imposed on us. I will stand my ground, and continue to fight to regain my beloved home state from the idiocy of the legislators on many levels (state economy, schooling, and of course the dumb, and ineffective gun laws).

I say we force the legislators that would ruin CA further to leave, and we vote in those that will help us repair the damage that already has been done here.

Amen. Blessings to your wife during her fight...

njineermike
08-10-2012, 3:00 PM
Like it or not it was the UK that kept Europe from going Nazi. Russia couldn't have stopped Germany on her own and the USA would not have gotten involved if the UK had pulled a France.

Your comment was misplaced. I'm not going to comment on what you wrote above because I didn't read past the first insulting sentance.

I thought this guy was banned. Seems he still has the same attitude.

Chief2Guns
08-10-2012, 3:18 PM
+1 same troll.:troll:

SinglePoint
08-10-2012, 5:45 PM
Need my job, so not until I retire...

pgg
08-10-2012, 7:07 PM
I lived the first 23 years of my life in CA and only left because the military told me to.

I'm back now, because the military had a billet in CA that I wanted. I'll be here until June 2014, then we're moving back to our other home in Virginia.

I can't imagine coming back to CA after my .mil time in Virginia is up though.
- I own too many NFA toys, which are a looooooong way from being CA legal.
- Taxes.
- I don't speak Spanish.

I will miss the weather. Virginia's pretty nice though, if a bit humid in the summer. We may just stay there.

Wherever I live though, I'll continue to donate to 2A groups - especially in the less free states, because that's where the court cases with national relevance are going to come from. (Heller & McDonald came out of DC & Chicago, two places I'll never live.)

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 8:24 PM
I lived the first 23 years of my life in CA and only left because the military told me to.

I'm back now, because the military had a billet in CA that I wanted. I'll be here until June 2014, then we're moving back to our other home in Virginia.

I can't imagine coming back to CA after my .mil time in Virginia is up though.
- I own too many NFA toys, which are a looooooong way from being CA legal.
- Taxes.
- I don't speak Spanish.

I will miss the weather. Virginia's pretty nice though, if a bit humid in the summer. We may just stay there.

Wherever I live though, I'll continue to donate to 2A groups - especially in the less free states, because that's where the court cases with national relevance are going to come from. (Heller & McDonald came out of DC & Chicago, two places I'll never live.)

That's unfortunate. What other languages do you speak other than English?

johnny1290
08-10-2012, 8:30 PM
I can't get out of this state fast enough. LA is a hole.

SkyMag68
08-10-2012, 8:37 PM
As long as we stand ours ground ,Libturd wet dreams will never come true.

Lagduf
08-10-2012, 8:41 PM
WWII: Winston Churchill vowed to defend his island, whatever the cost may be. He never gave up.

They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

37UPhgEqwN8

My sentiments exactly.

barbasol
08-10-2012, 9:21 PM
Educate me as to what I'm missing in your free state? A suppressor and another tax stamp for full auto? Maybe a ccw? No bullet button?

Yawn. If shtf my bb will be off in 10 seconds and it's really not a big deal while at the range. Ccw? I can still carry a firearm with me in a locked container but frankly the piece of paper you may have that I don't will not stop me from carrying if I feel the need.

living less than a mile to the ocean I couldn't live without. I can't fish for lobsters in bfe Arizona. Jobs are nowhere near the caliber of income I can make here. I'm staying and fighting. And if you don't think California's gun policy doesn't affect the rest of the nation then you have another thing coming. I love Cali

163793

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 9:48 PM
Educate me as to what I'm missing in your free state? A suppressor and another tax stamp for full auto? Maybe a ccw? No bullet button?

Yawn. If shtf my bb will be off in 10 seconds and it's really not a big deal while at the range. Ccw? I can still carry a firearm with me in a locked container but frankly the piece of paper you may have that I don't will not stop me from carrying if I feel the need.

living less than a mile to the ocean I couldn't live without. I can't fish for lobsters in bfe Arizona. Jobs are nowhere near the caliber of income I can make here. I'm staying and fighting. And if you don't think California's gun policy doesn't affect the rest of the nation then you have another thing coming. I love Cali

163793
B I N G O ! ! ! :D

You allude to something though that makes me wonder. I have seen many, many posts here of people whining about "having" to live in CA as if it's extreme torture but they do so because of their jobs. (They do so while whining about CA's unemployment rate but that's another issue.)

If living here is such a horrid, miserable thing, why don't they find new jobs? I don't think we're talking about business owners that can't be moved for the most part. Aren't they employable on the open market? Are they just struggling to finish off that gov't pension?

If they would actually leave CA for the reasons you mention, why do they stay because of their jobs? Get new ones in your beloved land of the free!

Excelsior
08-10-2012, 9:52 PM
I can't get out of this state fast enough. LA is a hole.

LA also isn't all of CA. Not by a long shot.

Rockit
08-10-2012, 9:55 PM
When I retire....maybe.
Don't care for the political climate, but in general I love it here.
Ocean...I'm a diver.
Water ways...avid fly fisherman.
Sierras...4wd rock crawler (although that hobby is getting attacked too)
People of every ethnicity....I love all types of food! Every time I am out of CA for any extended time, I realise how spoiled we are with out excellent eating options.

Xingu
08-10-2012, 10:35 PM
"Slavery?" What "slavery?"

I don't like the fact that some guns/magazines are currently banned in CA. But "slavery?" No. That's pure bunkum.

I have a very large number of shotguns, rifles, pistol and revolvers. At least half are legacy arms -- great grandfather, grandfather, great uncles, father, uncle -- and ALL Californians.

While hyperbole sells to some, it won't sell to me...

Making you work for the gain of those who don't. They take the guns so you don't get a say in it. Now be a good subject and hand over your guns, goods and liberty to your master.

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 1:33 AM
Making you work for the gain of those who don't. They take the guns so you don't get a say in it. Now be a good subject and hand over your guns, goods and liberty to your master.

Again, there is no slavery. I don't believe there is a single state without any form of public assistance for the truly needy and if there is, I certainly wouldn't want to live there.

Now wait until it's dark, bow your head and then cut-and-run.

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 1:35 AM
When I retire....maybe.
Don't care for the political climate, but in general I love it here.
Ocean...I'm a diver.
Water ways...avid fly fisherman.
Sierras...4wd rock crawler (although that hobby is getting attacked too)
People of every ethnicity....I love all types of food! Every time I am out of CA for any extended time, I realise how spoiled we are with out excellent eating options.

No kidding!! I was in Riverton, WY and some friends took me to this "great Mexican food" place. It honestly tasted like pot roast wrapped in a stale tortilla topped with canned salsa...

2nab
08-11-2012, 1:39 AM
Stay here, and vote

mossy
08-11-2012, 2:31 AM
That's unfortunate. What other languages do you speak other than English?

does he need to speak another language????

rod
08-11-2012, 2:57 AM
I would never leave a home based on how many guns I could own. There's much more that needs considered. For me, I have a wife and two young daughters, and their well being is most important to me. I left California for a good job after I retired from the Navy. I moved to Virginia and an added bonus was all the guns I could buy and not register, the climate was absolutly perfect, and there was hardly any crime. My girls attended great schools and the people I lived among were the friendliest I've ever met. My company closed down and I was left without a job. I ended up down here in a tourist infested swamp in south Florida (Fort Lauderdale) and absolutly hate it here. I have a great job, my wife is happy with all the shopping, my daughters are in good schools, I have another house in a decent neighborhood and plenty of food on the table. Oh yeah, lots of guns here too.

FalconLair
08-11-2012, 3:06 AM
As soon as a gun becomes the most important reason why I'm staying, I'll leave...At the moment, its not, in fact, its probably not in the top 5 reasons, maybe not even the top10...there are a lot of other things that would make me consider leaving before our gun issues

veeklog
08-11-2012, 5:05 AM
I can never leave. I work in entertainment and this is where most of the work is. I guess I can go to NY, but you know how it is there.

I am in this fight for the long haul.

+1 about work; I have to come back within the next 1-2 years because this is where the work is. I grew up in California and until 3 years ago, lived there my entire life until I left the U.S. for work. I miss California but don't miss the restrictive laws and taxes. But I guess I am in for the long run.

Hopalong
08-11-2012, 6:07 AM
As mentioned above

Depends on your priorities

There are a lot of factors to consider when living life

hornswaggled
08-11-2012, 12:00 PM
Making you work for the gain of those who don't.

Actually that's called Capitalism. And it's not necessarily all that bad.

cmichini
08-11-2012, 12:32 PM
You need an 'Other' category. I bailed on the state to take a job back in America. I decided I didn't want to continue to fund the shennanigans of the mongoloid retards that are perenially voted to run the loony bin that is CA.

SilverTauron
08-11-2012, 1:19 PM
Educate me as to what I'm missing in your free state? A suppressor and another tax stamp for full auto? Maybe a ccw? No bullet button?

Yawn. If shtf my bb will be off in 10 seconds and it's really not a big deal while at the range.

What you miss is recognition of your right to defend yourself with the tools best able to do the job.Its not about hardware-most people in America don't own NFA items. Its not about CCW-not every citizen who can get a CCW carries. Its about the government stepping OUT of your life;I can freely drive down any street in my state with a rifle in the rear seat and a handgun on my hip without any concern about going to jail just because my gun is an AR instead of a bolt-gun. I have the peace of mind to know that in the aftermath of a self defense incident-SHTF or not- a jury of my peers will be people who own guns themselves, instead of 12 latte sipping liberals who get their gun info from CNN.

Life is hard enough without worrying whether or not your rifle's going to be legal in 12 months, and I believe its far too short to be spent wondering if an 11 round magazine's going to result in a trip to Central Booking.



Ccw? I can still carry a firearm with me in a locked container but frankly the piece of paper you may have that I don't will not stop me from carrying if I feel the need.


A gun carried in a locked container is neigh useless for personal defense, hence why the law mandates it be transported in such a state. The Tueller Drill proves quite clearly that an armed man against a charging attacker has about 1.5 seconds to clear holster and shoot. Drawing from concealment with a loaded pistol can take longer than that. Against that kind of threat, the only thing carrying a locked gun does is give the bad guy a weapon when he overpowers you.

As far as the second part of your post is concerned, you have reinforced my point that much further. The "piece of paper" is a state sanction that you are allowed to defend yourself if necessary;without it, you are fair game for an opportunistic attorney . You may not go to jail for shooting dead the attacker, but an illegal gun possession charge can mean the permanent loss of your RKBA. Even in SHTF situtations, eventually rule of law of some kind WILL return.

When it does, the regulations which apply during regular conditions will be enforced on your actions during the crisis. Just because there's a riot does NOT obligate the DA to give you a pass on carrying a 17 round Glock without a CCW permit.



living less than a mile to the ocean I couldn't live without. I can't fish for lobsters in bfe Arizona. Jobs are nowhere near the caliber of income I can make here. I'm staying and fighting. And if you don't think California's gun policy doesn't affect the rest of the nation then you have another thing coming. I love Cali



If you think CA's gun laws are going to spread all over the country, think again. The historical record does not support that thesis of "what happens in CA will happen to America!".

Texas is in no hurry to pass an Assault Weapons Ban. The powerful Chicago Machine is dealing with restless downstate reps challenging that state's carry ban. Maryland's Democrat anti-gun legislature is offering a somewhat competent CCW bill after losing the "good and substantial cause" canard in court, and even the rabidly anti-gun Imperial City of New York's own Michael Bloomburg had to cut deals with out of state pistol packers.

If anything, it is California which is resisting the national trend !

Agent Orange
08-11-2012, 1:39 PM
I don't see gun laws as being anywhere near enough of a reason to leave (or stay) anyplace.

The Gleam
08-11-2012, 1:44 PM
At what point does a gun owner pack up and leave a state/city like; CA.

When I retire. The gun laws are a secondary thought, but still a consideration. Really only in in CA for the career/industry I work in, and the weather. If I change careers or source of income, I'm heading to AZ, New Mexico, or NV for a small house on a HUGE plot of land. Now true, when I retire the gun laws then become a factor; if the gun laws were favorable in CA, I would stay here.

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 3:51 PM
does he need to speak another language????

"Need"? No.

But I would think everyone would WANT to speak as many languages as possible.

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 3:56 PM
I would never leave a home based on how many guns I could own. There's much more that needs considered. For me, I have a wife and two young daughters, and their well being is most important to me. I left California for a good job after I retired from the Navy. I moved to Virginia and an added bonus was all the guns I could buy and not register, the climate was absolutly perfect, and there was hardly any crime. My girls attended great schools and the people I lived among were the friendliest I've ever met. My company closed down and I was left without a job. I ended up down here in a tourist infested swamp in south Florida (Fort Lauderdale) and absolutly hate it here. I have a great job, my wife is happy with all the shopping, my daughters are in good schools, I have another house in a decent neighborhood and plenty of food on the table. Oh yeah, lots of guns here too.

Very well put.

Just imagine having the legal ownership of a 30 round magazine or an AR-15 "with features" as the sole determiners of where one spent their earthy existences...

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 3:58 PM
Stay here, and vote

Amen.

wjc
08-11-2012, 5:19 PM
"Need"? No.

But I would think everyone would WANT to speak as many languages as possible.

I want to speak American and Lakota.

I've had it with German. :D

jonzer77
08-11-2012, 7:03 PM
Yup, if you don't like it here leave and take someone with you.hard to find an incoming Uhaul. The rest of the country will have kalifornia type gun laws before long. Then where you gonna go? Go back to Mehiko?

Since 42 states now have shall issue I highly doubt they will follow suit with CA gun laws. New York, Illinois and Massachusetts maybe but I can care less since I don't have any desire to live in those states.

pgg
08-11-2012, 8:06 PM
That's unfortunate. What other languages do you speak other than English?

German.


But I don't need Spanish or German in Virginia. Here in California, when I work at non .mil hospitals, easily 1/4 of my patients don't speak English. It's a pain in the *** to track down translators, and I have no illusions that the language barrier impairs my ability to do as complete and capable a job as I can do with the English speakers.

Non-English speaking patients also have a tendency to not pay their bills.


I don't have a particularly anti-immigrant mindset, but my inability to communicate with 1/4 of the people who put their lives in my hands is a problem.

sholling
08-11-2012, 9:34 PM
I'm going when I can afford to leave and not before. Leaving is exactly what the Progressives want us to do. Their is no room in their dream police state for businesses, freedom lovers, property owners, and least of all gun owners.

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 10:14 PM
Yup, if you don't like it here leave and take someone with you.hard to find an incoming Uhaul. The rest of the country will have kalifornia type gun laws before long. Then where you gonna go? Go back to Mehiko?

California is spelled with a "C". Some here seem confused about that.

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 10:16 PM
I'm going when I can afford to leave and not before. Leaving is exactly what the Progressives want us to do. Their is no room in their dream police state for businesses, freedom lovers, property owners, and least of all gun owners.

So you say. I have many, many guns. Some have been in California for over 100 years. Since at least 1989 I have been told that all my guns are going to be confiscated because I live in California...

Excelsior
08-11-2012, 10:18 PM
German.

But I don't need Spanish or German in Virginia. Here in California, when I work at non .mil hospitals, easily 1/4 of my patients don't speak English. It's a pain in the *** to track down translators, and I have no illusions that the language barrier impairs my ability to do as complete and capable a job as I can do with the English speakers.

Non-English speaking patients also have a tendency to not pay their bills.

I don't have a particularly anti-immigrant mindset, but my inability to communicate with 1/4 of the people who put their lives in my hands is a problem.

German is a good language -- a nice compliment to English. If you could do your job more effectively if you spoke Spanish (or nearly any Romance Language for that matter) and you cannot, then that's your shortcoming.

Mendo223
08-11-2012, 11:50 PM
never id rather stay and fight...cant leave california got too many investments and interests here..

merrill
08-12-2012, 5:34 AM
Leave California - hell no? My family has been in California since 1896 and most of us will stay and fight. Fight defined: Vote against excessive regulation, ask questions, spread the word, give money to causes, and whatever legal ways there are to resist excessive government intervention. California was a successful State until east coast liberal rejects (Boxer and Pelosi for example) got here along with their fellow travelers. Assisting them are naive young people brain washed by the educational system.

sholling
08-12-2012, 9:13 AM
So you say. I have many, many guns. Some have been in California for over 100 years. Since at least 1989 I have been told that all my guns are going to be confiscated because I live in California...
And your point is? Perhaps you've been living in a bubble and had no access to news but since the 1980s but we've had draconian restrictions placed the ability to buy and sell or even keep many types of guns - did you miss that? We have the roster, the AWB, the .50BMG ban, the open carry ban, the attempts at ammo restrictions etc. That's just on the gun side. On the general freedom side we've been loosing so many rights that in many areas we can't buy a gas lawn mower, use a fireplace, or choose the grocery bags we'd like and businesses/employers are being driven out of the state. So what was your point? That you still have grandpa's Colt Peacemaker so all is well?

I was born here as was my father but the combination of draconian gun laws with more gun or ammo bills introduced every year, high taxes with the constant threat of still higher taxes, high energy prices, the poor employment picture, and all of the other laws that make California a far less than free place to live and the fact that it's only going to get worse as it totters into insolvency have me seriously thinking about leaving.

ewarmour
08-12-2012, 9:30 AM
From another (mine) thread on the topic:

I've lived in San Diego County CA all of my life and now I believe it's time to go.

It comes down to this: I cannot stomach contributing tax dollars to this state and having that money used against me. This state is dissolving and destroying our freedom bit by bit. Not only that I feel that this state hates me, my life style and heritage. It feels personal. The stupidity of the politics and people here is unbelievable.

Roberti-Roos
Proposition 117
Proposition 4
cap-and-trade/WCI
SB 1221
SB 249
California's top individual income tax rate is the highest in the nation - tax migration
CARB
MLPA's
Dan Richards fiasco
Lead ammo ban
To list but a few

I'm thinking Idaho. I am planning a trip to Boise next spring probably traveling north to Coeur d'Alene.


"The Great Seal provides some good laughs. It was designed by U.S. Army Major Robert S. Garnett, who became the first general to die in the Civil War. The grizzly bear appears on the Seal to represent strength, but the last grizzly was shot 90 years ago. The miner using his sluice box dredge represents golden opportunity, but such mining became a crime as of August of 2009. Sadly, the five ships that once represented the state’s economic power now represent the relocation companies taking that power away."

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCgWcCuaVtk/UB76X1qtfhI/AAAAAAAARWw/e3tPpTrx9YM/s512/Great%2520Seal.jpg

Fate
08-12-2012, 9:46 AM
I seriously wonder if California apologists have ever lived outside of its borders and even know what liberty is like. Your chains aren't as light as you seem to believe.

pgg
08-12-2012, 10:41 AM
German is a good language -- a nice compliment to English. If you could do your job more effectively if you spoke Spanish (or nearly any Romance Language for that matter) and you cannot, then that's your shortcoming.

I am amused by your snootiness concerning language, in light of your confusion regarding compliment vs complement. You obnoxiously patronizing ***.


I could do my job more effectively if I spoke Chinese, too. You're missing the point. I own houses in California and Virginia. I was listing pros and cons of choosing which one to settle in for the long term. A large immigrant population that speaks a language I don't, yet routinely show up in my operating room, is a con.

Yes, I could teach myself Spanish. I hear Rosetta Stone is neat. But every minute of self-improvement I devote to learning Spanish is a minute I can't spend reading, for example, medical journals. It's a zero sum game, and the game favors the state where I don't need to be fluent in another language.


I'm not slamming immigrants, or criticizing poor migrant workers for not installing Rosetta Stone English on the late model Sony Vaios I'm sure they all keep tucked away in their bags. I'm also not pretending an enormous population that doesn't speak the language of their adopted country isn't a problem.

Excelsior
08-12-2012, 2:32 PM
And your point is? Perhaps you've been living in a bubble and had no access to news but since the 1980s but we've had draconian restrictions placed the ability to buy and sell or even keep many types of guns - did you miss that? We have the roster, the AWB, the .50BMG ban, the open carry ban, the attempts at ammo restrictions etc. That's just on the gun side. On the general freedom side we've been loosing so many rights that in many areas we can't buy a gas lawn mower, use a fireplace, or choose the grocery bags we'd like and businesses/employers are being driven out of the state. So what was your point? That you still have grandpa's Colt Peacemaker so all is well?

I was born here as was my father but the combination of draconian gun laws with more gun or ammo bills introduced every year, high taxes with the constant threat of still higher taxes, high energy prices, the poor employment picture, and all of the other laws that make California a far less than free place to live and the fact that it's only going to get worse as it totters into insolvency have me seriously thinking about leaving.

My point is that the nefarious nattering nabobs of negativity have been whining about the end of gun ownership in CA since at least 1989. Since that time (23 years) the sole impact to my gun ownership needs/desires has been to register two AR's.

I think a lot of the whining is based more on hatred born of envy for California.

Excelsior
08-12-2012, 2:37 PM
I am amused by your snootiness concerning language, in light of your confusion regarding compliment vs complement. You obnoxiously patronizing ***.


I could do my job more effectively if I spoke Chinese, too. You're missing the point. I own houses in California and Virginia. I was listing pros and cons of choosing which one to settle in for the long term. A large immigrant population that speaks a language I don't, yet routinely show up in my operating room, is a con.

Yes, I could teach myself Spanish. I hear Rosetta Stone is neat. But every minute of self-improvement I devote to learning Spanish is a minute I can't spend reading, for example, medical journals. It's a zero sum game, and the game favors the state where I don't need to be fluent in another language.

I'm not slamming immigrants, or criticizing poor migrant workers for not installing Rosetta Stone English on the late model Sony Vaios I'm sure they all keep tucked away in their bags. I'm also not pretending an enormous population that doesn't speak the language of their adopted country isn't a problem.

Your opportunity cost example is ridiculous. You're posting on here as well when you would be reading medical journals. Nice try but no sale. You could also be listening to audio while you post here that would help you develop understanding of a new language.

You also make it sound as if there is nothing gained by learning a new language other than to help people who should have learned English. That's simply not true either.

If my job was in public health in the State of California, developing conversational Spanish capabilities would be a very important consideration.

jimflam
08-12-2012, 2:44 PM
Never leaving, never running, the fight stops at my front door!

Excelsior
08-12-2012, 2:47 PM
I seriously wonder if California apologists have ever lived outside of its borders and even know what liberty is like. Your chains aren't as light as you seem to believe.

Yes I have. What "chains?" I don't wake up in a cold sweat, bitter that I cannot legally buy a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. My day isn't impacted by the fact I cannot buy a .50 BMG. If it were I would simply buy a .50 DTC.

I have however woke up in other parts of the country where the horrid weather made me feel like I was in hell. I have lived outside of California where the produce and meat in supermarkets looked like that which CA supermarkets discarded. I have lived in towns (cities actually) outside of CA where just about the best restaurant in town was a McDonald's. I have also lived in towns outside of CA that made me thankful that I did not yet have kids given the atmosphere and the horrid local school systems.

"Liberty?" Sure. Some seem to use the word as a means to living in Hell...

MXRider
08-12-2012, 2:53 PM
Like CA doesn't have ****hole towns. :rolleyes:

As someone who enjoys camping, hunting, fishing, riding off highway vehicles, shooting sports, not to mention running a business, I have to say I feel very shackled in CA. I am returning to VA in November and I can't wait.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

pgg
08-12-2012, 3:05 PM
If my job was in public health in the State of California, developing conversational Spanish capabilities would be a very important consideration.

Are you willfully missing the point here, or what?

If one of my personal goals in life was to enrich myself by learning Spanish, I would have done so already. If I chose to stay in California, developing conversational Spanish capabilities would be a very important consideration. I would put the time and effort into learning Spanish.

The point is, I don't have a particularly burning desire to learn Spanish. I wouldn't need it to anywhere near the same degree in Virginia. Or Montana. Or Nebraska. Or Vermont. Or anywhere else, except the southwestern US where we have a large and growing immigrant population that (generally) makes little effort to learn English.

The non-English speaking patient population here is ONE aspect of California that makes practicing medicine here less desirable.


Sure, I could forgo griping at people like you :) on the internet in exchange for some time to ...
- learn Spanish
- clean my garage
- give the cat a bath
or some otherwise equally unenjoyable but more productive activity. The point (again) is that in Virginia, that list would be shortened to
- clean my garage
- give the cat a bath

:)

Cypriss32
08-12-2012, 3:06 PM
I leave as soon as I graduate from school....... Less then 2 years.

TempleKnight
08-12-2012, 3:11 PM
Stop Feeding the Troll - he has nothing to add and it just increases your blood pressure.

jonzer77
08-12-2012, 3:46 PM
Stop Feeding the Troll - he has nothing to add and it just increases your blood pressure.

Yeah I agree, stop feeding the Brady troll. You can tell in his posts that he is extremely selfish and doesn't care because he already has what he wants.

pgg
08-12-2012, 3:55 PM
I have however woke up in other parts of the country where the horrid weather made me feel like I was in hell. I have lived outside of California where the produce and meat in supermarkets looked like that which CA supermarkets discarded. I have lived in towns (cities actually) outside of CA where just about the best restaurant in town was a McDonald's. I have also lived in towns outside of CA that made me thankful that I did not yet have kids given the atmosphere and the horrid local school systems.

I grew up in Encinitas. Lived in the Bay Area for a while. Did my undergrad at UC Davis. Spent some time in Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia. Presently live in the CA central valley.

I like warm weather, but you can't tell me that people move to the central valley for the weather ...

The fresh food here is excellent. But it's a cultural wasteland. Fresno and Bakersfield are the nearest cities.

Believe it or not, there are nasty parts of California, and there are wonderful places to live elsewhere in the United States.

There's a strip of coastline from San Diego up toward San Francisco that has absolutely magnificent weather, just about year-round. Of course, you can't swing an unwashed cat without hitting six people, two of whom can't even swear at you in English. ;) Off the southern 1/2 of the coast, the rest of the state's weather isn't exactly by-default superior to the rest of the country.


Believe me - I am going to miss the food. There isn't a single decent Mexican restaurant in the entire state of Virginia. Hell, finding a taco truck is nigh impossible. I'll even miss the 105 degree dry central valley heat when it's 95 degrees and humid in Virginia. But the weather and food aren't enough to keep me in California.

If hearing this upsets you, I'm sorry. This thread was about polling everyone's threshold for leaving California. Oppressive gun laws aren't the only consideration; there are other drawbacks too. I'm glad you're happy here, I wasn't trying to talk you into leaving. I don't understand why you're trying so hard to convince us all that our reasons for leaving aren't good ones.

curtisfong
08-12-2012, 4:21 PM
Once more for the OP, who seems to have disappeared (big surprise):

NEVER. I am not a coward.

sholling
08-12-2012, 4:35 PM
My point is that the nefarious nattering nabobs of negativity have been whining about the end of gun ownership in CA since at least 1989. Since that time (23 years) the sole impact to my gun ownership needs/desires has been to register two AR's.

I think a lot of the whining is based more on hatred born of envy for California.
That's an amazingly self absorbed and ignorant statement. But I guess in your mind the only one that matters is you. Where would you suggest that younger Californians go to register an AR? Or don't they matter? How about those that want to buy a handgun not on the list? Or a 30rd magazine? Oops only you matter I guess. I heard the same crap from the Elmer Fudds that supported the Clinton ban because it didn't effect their hunting rifles and shotguns and to heck with the rest of us. But lets get one thing straight oh important one.... I was born here in the 1950s and I've watched things go down hill since the 80s so your "envy" theory is just a figment of your self absorbed imagination. Enough... I'm done feeding a Brady troll.

MXRider
08-12-2012, 4:54 PM
Believe me - I am going to miss the food. There isn't a single decent Mexican restaurant in the entire state of Virginia. Hell, finding a taco truck is nigh impossible. I'll even miss the 105 degree dry central valley heat when it's 95 degrees and humid in Virginia. But the weather and food aren't enough to keep me in California.

I will miss this, and the good micro breweries the most about CA. I work less than a mile from Russian River Brewing Co. Pliney on tap after work is a beautiful thing.

I grew up in the south, the heat and humidity I can deal with.



Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Taxidave
08-12-2012, 5:25 PM
Leaving only because the government oppresses us is cowardly. Leaving also hurts the others that wishes to stand and fight. Bottomline, to leave just because of the oppressive stance the state government has on the 2A would be un-American. Stand and fight to the bitter end - cold dead hands, my friends. Cold dead hands...

So the people that helped form this great country of ours were cowards for leaving oppressive governments? Go half way across the globe to see The Statue of Liberty. arrive at Ellis Island without any job lined up or a place to live and all they had was what they carried with them and the determination to make a better life for themselves.

That is the definition of courage, not cowardice.

Taxidave
08-12-2012, 6:20 PM
I have however woke up in other parts of the country where the horrid weather made me feel like I was in hell. I have lived outside of California where the produce and meat in supermarkets looked like that which CA supermarkets discarded. I have lived in towns (cities actually) outside of CA where just about the best restaurant in town was a McDonald's. I have also lived in towns outside of CA that made me thankful that I did not yet have kids given the atmosphere and the horrid local school systems.

"Liberty?" Sure. Some seem to use the word as a means to living in Hell...

Having lived in Wisconsin (+Ohio, Pennsylvania, Idaho, Montana, Washington and California) as a supermarket meat-cutter, in my experience CA has the worst in meat and produce in the standard supermarkets. Now go to a farmers market and some specialty markets and you can equal the produce.
As far as restaurants, it all depends on the type of food you like. It's hard to find a good piece of Elk anywhere in the Bay Area. There are a ton of cities in California where the best restaurant in town is the McDonalds The horrid weather in central Contra Costa is like hell. But on the plus side you can drop 40 degrees in 20 to 30 minutes when you go to the bay.

I have also driven across this country and have found out that most suburban cities and neighborhoods in any state are pretty much the same.

It's my aging parents that keep me here. If I could get my brother to move back from AZ or my sister to move back from AR (like that's really gonna happen), I'd pack up my Jeep and re-enter America.

a1c
08-12-2012, 6:27 PM
I like it here. Came from Europe, lived in other US states, and I love California.

Not moving out. If SB249 passes (in whatever form it takes, and whatever consequences it has), I'll stay and fight.

Excelsior
08-14-2012, 1:24 PM
Having lived in Wisconsin (+Ohio, Pennsylvania, Idaho, Montana, Washington and California) as a supermarket meat-cutter, in my experience CA has the worst in meat and produce in the standard supermarkets. Now go to a farmers market and some specialty markets and you can equal the produce.

That's just silly. A huge percentage of the entire country's row crops are grown in the Salinas and Imperial Valleys. It's local, it's fresh. Have you ever actually seen produce in a supermarket in Wyoming or Montana?

As far as meat, I'm not sure why it looks so much better here. It might be because most of the meat I buy is Harris Ranch -- another local concern.

hornswaggled
08-14-2012, 1:28 PM
Never leaving, never running, the fight stops at my front door!

That's the spirit.

Excelsior
08-14-2012, 1:38 PM
That's an amazingly self absorbed and ignorant statement. But I guess in your mind the only one that matters is you. Where would you suggest that younger Californians go to register an AR? Or don't they matter? How about those that want to buy a handgun not on the list? Or a 30rd magazine? Oops only you matter I guess. I heard the same crap from the Elmer Fudds that supported the Clinton ban because it didn't effect their hunting rifles and shotguns and to heck with the rest of us. But lets get one thing straight oh important one.... I was born here in the 1950s and I've watched things go down hill since the 80s so your "envy" theory is just a figment of your self absorbed imagination. Enough... I'm done feeding a Brady troll.

Actually it's you that displaying the self-absorption and ignorance...

Simply put, I'm not going to cut-and-run because I cannot have an AR variant configured exactly how I want it, replete with a 30 round mag. I'm not going to choose where I live because a certain handgun I covet is not on the roster. Neither the rifle restrictions or the roster are good things. But neither stop me from living in this great state and enjoying a huge plethora of firearms -- even if I moved here today. The correct response is to stand firm and work for real improvements and not to cut and run while mouthing bitter invectives.

I'm tired of the hateful and ignorant anti-California trolls trying to sell the notion that we can't own anything bigger than a Red Ryder BB gun. Pure bunkum! Before you pop-off with "just wait, you're headed towards BB guns in 3 years!" I'll remind you that the rest of the USA is becoming more and more like CA when it comes to guns. "Enough!" I am done feeding an anti-California trolls!

Twenty-three (23) years of doomsayers...

Excelsior
08-14-2012, 1:49 PM
I grew up in Encinitas. Lived in the Bay Area for a while. Did my undergrad at UC Davis. Spent some time in Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia. Presently live in the CA central valley.

I like warm weather, but you can't tell me that people move to the central valley for the weather ...

The fresh food here is excellent. But it's a cultural wasteland. Fresno and Bakersfield are the nearest cities.

Believe it or not, there are nasty parts of California, and there are wonderful places to live elsewhere in the United States.

There's a strip of coastline from San Diego up toward San Francisco that has absolutely magnificent weather, just about year-round. Of course, you can't swing an unwashed cat without hitting six people, two of whom can't even swear at you in English. ;) Off the southern 1/2 of the coast, the rest of the state's weather isn't exactly by-default superior to the rest of the country.


Believe me - I am going to miss the food. There isn't a single decent Mexican restaurant in the entire state of Virginia. Hell, finding a taco truck is nigh impossible. I'll even miss the 105 degree dry central valley heat when it's 95 degrees and humid in Virginia. But the weather and food aren't enough to keep me in California.

If hearing this upsets you, I'm sorry. This thread was about polling everyone's threshold for leaving California. Oppressive gun laws aren't the only consideration; there are other drawbacks too. I'm glad you're happy here, I wasn't trying to talk you into leaving. I don't understand why you're trying so hard to convince us all that our reasons for leaving aren't good ones.

Actually I appreciate your posting. It shows some actual understanding of CA. I really don't know how I would like living in say the San Joaquin Valley? Not because it's hot but because as you say it's a "cultural wasteland."

I guess it boils down to this for me. If I was happy where I lived in CA (and I most certainly am), the disappointing gun control laws of this great state would certainly not be enough to make me move. Conversely if I really disliked living in CA for another reasons, a complete absence of gun control laws would not be enough to keep me here.

On thing I will point out is that one must not be directly on the coast to enjoy CA's awesome weather nor its cultural heartland. There is plenty of rural property in this huge state that allows access to both.

Uxi
08-14-2012, 1:49 PM
"The Great Seal provides some good laughs. It was designed by U.S. Army Major Robert S. Garnett, who became the first general to die in the Civil War. The grizzly bear appears on the Seal to represent strength, but the last grizzly was shot 90 years ago. The miner using his sluice box dredge represents golden opportunity, but such mining became a crime as of August of 2009. Sadly, the five ships that once represented the state’s economic power now represent the relocation companies taking that power away."

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCgWcCuaVtk/UB76X1qtfhI/AAAAAAAARWw/e3tPpTrx9YM/s512/Great%2520Seal.jpg

ROFL that was pretty good.


:(

RMP91
08-14-2012, 2:20 PM
I'd get out before they decide that they need a "captive" population (you're not allowed to leave CA and move to a free state) :(

curtisfong
08-14-2012, 6:07 PM
One more time, to the OP author, who has disappeared..

NEVER. A coward flees. Why are you claiming the "right" thing to do is flee? I find the concept offensive.

jonzer77
08-14-2012, 6:11 PM
One more time, to the OP author, who has disappeared..

NEVER. A coward flees. Why are you claiming the "right" thing to do is flee? I find the concept offensive.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. I am sure our founding fathers were cowards for wanting to flee as well.

socalbowhunter
08-14-2012, 6:14 PM
I'm doing my best to leave. The wife and I are looking in Utah right now. In fact, we just got back from a week in Utah looking at property and speaking with home builders.

curtisfong
08-14-2012, 6:18 PM
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. I am sure our founding fathers were cowards for wanting to flee as well.

They didn't have the benefit of a Bill of Rights, or a representative government.

The U.K. STILL does not.

In any case, what can happen in CA, can (and will) happen in every state once it gets to a certain population density, unless the battle is won here (and in IL, NY, NJ, and HI)

Anybody who thinks they are safe outside of CA is being naive.

SilverTauron
08-14-2012, 6:43 PM
They didn't have the benefit of a Bill of Rights, or a representative government.
Practically speaking you don't enjoy the Bill of Rights either, nor do the poor sods in Illinois, NJ, and other Democrat dominated areas of the US. The RKBA is outlawed obviously, the press is a state-owned entity which parrots the corrupt government line, police and government in such places can manufacture any reason they wish with impunity to search your home & car if they feel the need, and self defense of home & person against violent assault is one step away from being a crime.


Governments in IL and CA aren't accountable to the ballot box, the budget office, or their own state law.The only thing Democrat stronghold politicians fear is a Federal indictment and death.





In any case, what can happen in CA, can (and will) happen in every state once it gets to a certain population density, unless the battle is won here (and in IL, NY, NJ, and HI)

Wrong!




As ive said before, states like Texas, Wisconsin, and others have enacted pro-RKBA laws regarding shall issue concealed carry despite having populations centers such as Millwaukee (WI), Houston (TX), and others. Those CCW laws didn't sprout up from Jack's Magic Beanstalk-the citizens of those states decided they'd had enough of the Brady BS and in turn supported politicians who enacted laws expanding carry rights.

The idea that California's gun laws are going to spread like a bad flu outbreak is foolish. Montana and Wyoming ain't passing an assault weapons ban anytime soon, and the Sun will burn out before Texas adopts a "safe gun roster". If anything, it is California which is stuck in 1968 while the rest of the nation is moving about its RKBA enlightened way.




Anybody who thinks they are safe outside of CA is being naive.


Anyone who thinks the situation in California is going to improve overnight is even more naive. It took decades for the state to slide into inane gun regulation, and it will take as much time to undo the damage. It is not cowardice to look around and decide you're better off in a state which doesn't use your tax money to strip your rights.

jonzer77
08-14-2012, 6:43 PM
They didn't have the benefit of a Bill of Rights, or a representative government.

The U.K. STILL does not.

In any case, what can happen in CA, can (and will) happen in every state once it gets to a certain population density, unless the battle is won here (and in IL, NY, NJ, and HI)

Anybody who thinks they are safe outside of CA is being naive.

Yup, that's why 42 states are shall issue and states are lining up to copy our AWB and safe handgun roster. IL, NY, NJ, and HI will copy our anti gun laws but try selling that in Texas or Idaho.

curtisfong
08-14-2012, 6:44 PM
Anyone who thinks the situation in California is going to improve overnight is even more naive. It took decades for the state to slide into inane gun regulation, and it will take as much time to undo the damage. It is not cowardice to look around and decide you're better off in a state which doesn't use your tax money to strip your rights.

1) When did I say it would be overnight?
2) What makes you think I care how long the fight will take?

jonzer77
08-14-2012, 6:45 PM
Practically speaking you don't enjoy the Bill of Rights either, nor do the poor sods in Illinois, NJ, and other Democrat dominated areas of the US. The RKBA is outlawed obviously, the press is a state-owned entity which parrots the corrupt government line, police and government in such places can manufacture any reason they wish with impunity to search your home & car if they feel the need, and self defense of home & person against violent assault is one step away from being a crime.


Governments in IL and CA aren't accountable to the ballot box, the budget office, or their own state law.The only thing Democrat stronghold politicians fear is a Federal indictment and death.




[/B]

Wrong!




As ive said before, states like Texas, Wisconsin, and others have enacted pro-RKBA laws regarding shall issue concealed carry despite having populations centers such as Millwaukee (WI), Houston (TX), and others. Those CCW laws didn't sprout up from Jack's Magic Beanstalk-the citizens of those states decided they'd had enough of the Brady BS and in turn supported politicians who enacted laws expanding carry rights.

The idea that California's gun laws are going to spread like a bad flu outbreak is foolish. Montana and Wyoming ain't passing an assault weapons ban anytime soon, and the Sun will burn out before Texas adopts a "safe gun roster". If anything, it is California which is stuck in 1968 while the rest of the nation is moving about its RKBA enlightened way.







Anyone who thinks the situation in California is going to improve overnight is even more naive. It took decades for the state to slide into inane gun regulation, and it will take as much time to undo the damage. It is not cowardice to look around and decide you're better off in a state which doesn't use your tax money to strip your rights.

Yup!

As long as we aren't talking about 1911's, we tend to agree :rofl:

curtisfong
08-14-2012, 6:50 PM
try selling that in Texas or Idaho.

Good luck with that when your population density reaches critical mass. Unless the 2nd is properly incorporated against state governments, you have no guarantees whatsoever that ANY of those pro-gun laws will stand to a legislature determined to dismantle them.

A rock solid guarantee will require an appropriate SCOTUS case.

And that case can only come from CA, NY, NJ, IL, or HI.

I see absolutely no reason why I should turn tail and abandon the effort.

And the more gun owners you harass into leaving those states, the more you harm you do. Period.

SilverTauron
08-14-2012, 6:50 PM
1) When did I say it would be overnight?
2) What makes you think I care how long the fight will take?

You might not care how long it takes.

A family man might want to defend his family from the goblins of the world without worrying about seeing his kids from behind prison visitation glass.

A woman should be able to walk down the street with a firearm secure in her ability to use it, instead of fearing what might be around the corner.

A law abiding gun owner should be able to go about his business armed without a police escort or a 3 day stay in the jail because of a frightened ninny.

A rifleman should be able to use whatever magazines he wishes without concern about prison time and range inspections.

A citizen of California has two options- suffer and wait for some undefined future date to exercise freedoms most of America enjoy now, or they can move out of the DMZ and live life without looking over their shoulder for exercising rights they already have!

SilverTauron
08-14-2012, 6:52 PM
Yup!

As long as we aren't talking about 1911's, we tend to agree :rofl:

I bought a 1911 last week. Im still choking on crow bones over here.;)

jonzer77
08-14-2012, 6:53 PM
Good luck with that when your population density reaches critical mass. Unless the 2nd is properly incorporated against state governments, you have no guarantees whatsoever that ANY of those pro-gun laws will stand to a legislature determined to dismantle them.

A rock solid guarantee will require an appropriate SCOTUS case.

And that case can only come from CA, NY, NJ, IL, or HI.

I see absolutely no reason why I should turn tail and abandon the effort.

This state is so entrenched with anti gun politicians that the ballot box doesn't work. The only way to win is with money to fight them in the courts. When I do move away I have no intention on canceling my monthly donations.

curtisfong
08-14-2012, 6:57 PM
This state is so entrenched with anti gun politicians that the ballot box doesn't work. The only way to win is with money to fight them in the courts. When I do move away I have no intention on canceling my monthly donations.

You might not, but any gun owner you harass into leaving will most likely leave and never look back.

jonzer77
08-14-2012, 7:05 PM
You might not, but any gun owner you harass into leaving will most likely leave and never look back.

Harassing? I am not the one calling people cowards repeatedly on here.

Excelsior
08-14-2012, 7:11 PM
One more time, to the OP author, who has disappeared..

NEVER. A coward flees. Why are you claiming the "right" thing to do is flee? I find the concept offensive.

Amen!

curtisfong
08-14-2012, 7:13 PM
Harassing? I am not the one calling people cowards repeatedly on here.

Then what is your opinion of those who stay and fight? Clearly you have a problem with them.

jonzer77
08-14-2012, 7:21 PM
Then what is your opinion of those who stay and fight? Clearly you have a problem with them.

I don't have an issue with them at all, not sure where you got that from. This thread is titled, "at which point do you leave," so people are pointing why they left or why they plan to leave. You are the one calling people cowards for taking the opportunity to leave.

Excelsior
08-14-2012, 7:22 PM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCgWcCuaVtk/UB76X1qtfhI/AAAAAAAARWw/e3tPpTrx9YM/s512/Great%2520Seal.jpg

What a gorgeous state seal! I love seeing the snow-capped mountains (CA has the tallest mountain in the lower 48) and the ocean bay -- the Pacific Ocean runs along out entire coastline of course. I know few other places in the world where one can comfortably snow ski on a gorgeous mountain, water ski is a beautiful lake and sail in the ocean in one long day.

I love that the clipper ships not only underscore the historicity of CA, it also alludes to CA mighty economy. Depicting the Greek goddess Athena (the goddess of heroic endeavor) also seems very appropriate.

I like the gold miner as well. It shows CA as a land of opportunity -- be it the entertainment industry of LA, the Silicon Valley of the Bay Area or the great agricultural valleys of the state.

db42
08-19-2012, 12:21 AM
where are you going to go?


Nevada or Texas.
My parents want to retire in Texas because that's where my brother (and their first grandchild) lives. I'd rather be in Nevada where land is still cheap (and because me brother isn't there).

As other posters have pointed out, reductions in firearms regulations most often stem from changes in state laws not federal ones, so that point it moot.

Let California burn, then it can be rebuilt.
People in CA aren't going to see the light till they hit the bottom. When the state is bankrupt (and can no longer pay for the welfare state it's become) people will seek competent leaders to make the changes that will bring the state back to glory.

In the mean time, leaving CA takes tax money away from the legislature, takes seats away from it's representation in congress, and takes children out of the state's indoctrination cycle.
As many calguns members have said before - vote with your dollars. If you don't like CA's policies, then don't let the legislature have your money, don't let them claim to represent you, and don't let them indoctrinate your children with their leftist propaganda.

More important than that:
Staying for the second amendment fight doesn't outweigh my family's safety. I'm probably getting married soon (probably) and I have no intention of raising my kids in this god forsaken state. There's gangs in every school and a shooting every other day - not for my kids.

That said, leaving the borders of the state doesn't mean leaving the fight. I donate to campaigns in other states whenever possible - every election is a national election these days, and we need to be ready to support our brothers in NJ, NY, etc.

BigRobb
08-19-2012, 12:47 AM
CA has been my home most of my life. It is where I grew up. It is where I truly call home. I have family and friends here and enjoy the diversity here as far as what you can do, what foods, etc etc.

I at the moment have no means of moving out of state. I really don't have any want to at the moment either. Yes the gun laws are terrible. I am not going to leave my family or friends over a gun law. I will fight bad laws the best way I can. SB249 was a nice breath of fresh air. Only in the fact that a grassroots movement consisting of mostly average citizens stood up and did our part to oppose the monstrosity. The battle was won, the war goes on. No matter where you go...the war goes on with the anti's.

The only way evil can prevail is when good men do nothing.

rogervzv
08-19-2012, 1:01 AM
Difficult to say. My main instinct is not to let Leftists and foreign immigrants with Socialist ideas like Yee run me out of my own native state. I was born in California. This is my State too. My instincts are to stay and fight.

It is true though that after a while a fellow gets tired. One of the basic ideas in the Constitution is that each State, within the limits of the Constitution, is different from the rest. People can vote with their feet if one state becomes too oppressive, backwards, poorly governed, etc. This notion is in tension with the idea that I do not want to give up and leave.

ccmc
08-20-2012, 9:19 AM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCgWcCuaVtk/UB76X1qtfhI/AAAAAAAARWw/e3tPpTrx9YM/s512/Great%2520Seal.jpg

What a gorgeous state seal! I love seeing the snow-capped mountains (CA has the tallest mountain in the lower 48) and the ocean bay -- the Pacific Ocean runs along out entire coastline of course. I know few other places in the world where one can comfortably snow ski on a gorgeous mountain, water ski is a beautiful lake and sail in the ocean in one long day.

I love that the clipper ships not only underscore the historicity of CA, it also alludes to CA mighty economy. Depicting the Greek goddess Athena (the goddess of heroic endeavor) also seems very appropriate.

I like the gold miner as well. It shows CA as a land of opportunity -- be it the entertainment industry of LA, the Silicon Valley of the Bay Area or the great agricultural valleys of the state.

It is indeed a beautiful seal for a beautiful state. But it's also worth noting that while California does have a large, diverse economy, the state's 10.7 pct unemployment rate is the third highest in the nation, and that 39 of 58 counties have unemployment rates higher than 10 pct. According to the Public Policy Institute of California only 49.7 pct of Californians are now classified as middle class down from 60 pct in 1980. Los Angeles County has the highest rate among the nation's 31 largest metro areas of poorly educated workers - 13 pct of LA County adults have less than a 9th grade education. Something to think about.

johnny_22
08-20-2012, 9:33 AM
This is the front line in the war for our civil rights. I am here to fight, and to win.

The disease of California's gun laws will spread unless stopped here. Look at NY trying to pass microstamping. AZ is fighting Pb-free (RoHS) ammo for the poor Condor. The CA border is where the line must be drawn.

chead
08-20-2012, 9:37 AM
I'm not leaving because of CA gun law (I'm not gonna be bullied out of the state) but when I do move eventually I'm not going anywhere I can't take my guns. I love NYC and I've got a lot of friends there, but I just can't do it.

ccmc
08-20-2012, 9:40 AM
The disease of California's gun laws will spread unless stopped here. Look at NY trying to pass microstamping. AZ is fighting Pb-free (RoHS) ammo for the poor Condor. The CA border is where the line must be drawn.

I don't believe that's true. NY is a poor example - their gun laws are just as bad, and nobody seriously thinks states like AZ will adopt CA style gun laws. Last year CT proposed 10 round mag limits a la CA - either defeated soundly in the state legislature or died in committee (can't remember which) - this was proposed after the Tucson shooting.

vincewarde
08-20-2012, 5:14 PM
I am almost 60 and I have lived in CA my entire life - as did my father's family as far back as I can check. My grandfather was a San Rafael Fire Chief who died on duty. Both my wife and I have served in fire and EMS agencies here and I am disabled as a result of that service. We are INVESTED in this state. I have friends and family here. Sadly, the wife and I, and probably my son and his family, will be leaving sometime within the next few years.

The hostility of this state towards gun rights is only one of the reasons we will leave - although it is probably number one on the list of threatened rights that I hold dear. Our list looks like this:

1) Lack of gun rights
2) Poor economy with little hope of recovery. Although I'm not working, my wife is and she continues to have her hours and her pay cut due to lack of business.
3) High cost of living
4) Hostility toward home schooling
5) Lack of good hunting opportunities at reasonable cost
6) A government that thinks nothing is not a legitimate issue for it to control.
7) High taxes

So, sometime in the next few years - as soon as we have a good opportunity we will move to Southern Idaho. Until then, and perhaps after, I will continue to fight for our freedoms here in California.

JJE
08-21-2012, 7:50 AM
after my wife and I retire. We've been fortunate and have avoided unemployment and other financial catastrophes, but after we retire we'll be more financially secure out of state.

Bad gun laws are only a symptom of the larger problem of entrenched, bad CA government.

Even if CA became shall-issue tomorrow, and also repealed every other state and local gun law, the long-term state and local budget problems would be the same, the schools would be the same, it would still be TOO CROWDED. Frankly, even if every single incumbent politician were recalled tomorrow and replaced with people who were committed to making the state fiscally-sound and didn't pass a single new law, it would probably take them a generation to get back to normal.

Uxi
08-21-2012, 8:04 AM
Then what is your opinion of those who stay and fight? Clearly you have a problem with them.

As noted, you're in the wrong thread. That said, you really have NO point at which you'd leave? By "Stay and Fight" do you mean you'd commit felonies and face the music in various hypotheticals on complete bans?

Masada86
08-21-2012, 8:47 AM
Wow I didn't realize this topic would take off like this. I'm glad to see that there is such vigorous opinions on both sides of the question.

Right now it looks like the majority would leave the state at some point with 66.24% saying yes, while 33.76% would stay and fight no matter what. It's interesting to see the variety in responses here. For me, I'm still on the fence about what I would do if AZ followed the CA example (not that I think it will happen in my lifetime) but if it did, I would probably seek another place to call home at some point if I didn't see an improvement over a period of time.

Dark Paladin
08-21-2012, 8:56 AM
Wow I didn't realize this topic would take off like this. I'm glad to see that there is such vigorous opinions on both sides of the question.

Right now it looks like the majority would leave the state at some point with 66.24% saying yes, while 33.76% would stay and fight no matter what. It's interesting to see the variety in responses here. For me, I'm still on the fence about what I would do if AZ followed the CA example (not that I think it will happen in my lifetime) but if it did, I would probably seek another place to call home at some point if I didn't see an improvement over a period of time.

I have grappled with this question myself, and have long thought of taking the easy way out by emigrating back to my home state, Texas.

However, in thinking it further. . . I am reminded of the phrase "not one inch".

By ceding this battleground to the liberal socialists, we allow them to fortify their foothold, and begin preying on the rest of the US.

If they are allowed to take over CA, and begin encroaching on other states. . . will you leave the other states too? What happens when it is the last "free" state? What will you do then?

To me, the price of freedom and liberty is eternal vigilance. We must defend the ideals which this nation was founded upon, from threats external AND internal. And thus we must hold this thin, tenacious, fragile line. If not for us, then for our future generations. To use the liberals' phrasing against them. . . "think of your children".

Uxi
08-21-2012, 9:01 AM
They already have the fortified foothold, though. 1/3 of welfare cases live in the State and can vote. It's something like only 1 in 6 California citizens as private sector workers now. That deck is stacked against us.

This thread, though,is about what hypothetical point is too far? "Never" means you'd stay even after a hypothetical complete ban on firearms as counterweight to family/friends/climate/job/etc.

njineermike
08-21-2012, 9:16 AM
They already have the fortified foothold, though. 1/3 of welfare cases live in the State and can vote. It's something like only 1 in 6 California citizens as private sector workers now. That deck is stacked against us.

This thread, though,is about what hypothetical point is too far? "Never" means you'd stay even after a hypothetical complete ban on firearms as counterweight to family/friends/climate/job/etc.

As was stated previously, the ability to exercise my 2A rights without governmental penalties is only a small portion of the whole. The weather is not enough to make me stay and pay the cost associated with the fact that the state spends money like a drunken sailor on shore leave in a whorehouse.

-hanko
08-21-2012, 10:14 AM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCgWcCuaVtk/UB76X1qtfhI/AAAAAAAARWw/e3tPpTrx9YM/s512/Great%2520Seal.jpg

What a gorgeous state seal! I love seeing the snow-capped mountains (CA has the tallest mountain in the lower 48) and the ocean bay -- the Pacific Ocean runs along out entire coastline of course. I know few other places in the world where one can comfortably snow ski on a gorgeous mountain, water ski is a beautiful lake and sail in the ocean in one long day.

I love that the clipper ships not only underscore the historicity of CA, it also alludes to CA mighty economy. Depicting the Greek goddess Athena (the goddess of heroic endeavor) also seems very appropriate.

I like the gold miner as well. It shows CA as a land of opportunity -- be it the entertainment industry of LA, the Silicon Valley of the Bay Area or the great agricultural valleys of the state.
I'd suggest pre-lubing the spear point...:D

-hanko

Masada86
08-21-2012, 10:20 AM
By ceding this battleground to the liberal socialists, we allow them to fortify their foothold, and begin preying on the rest of the US.

If they are allowed to take over CA, and begin encroaching on other states. . . will you leave the other states too? What happens when it is the last "free" state? What will you do then?

Personally, I feel the scenario offered up is a bit extreme. If the entire country fell into a socialistic/communistic set of values our 2A rights would be the least of my concerns and I would hardly call this place home any more. Since free speech, the right to assemble, freedom of religion would all be compromised as well as any other value we hold true.

However, I think that in life there are cycles of opinions and mentalities. Kind of like a pendulum swinging back and forth with people on both sides of the center line. At times in our nations history we have seen more conservative values and less liberal ones, and now we are in a more liberal time than in the past. Just like before I think we will see a "swing" in the other direction, only to see it swing back at some point. It's part of life, however there's nothing wrong with fighting to keep the pendulum on the side you agree with for as long as you can. But in the end it will shift, the key is to fight to shift it back again. I think it goes without saying that life is a fight, until you are dead and in the ground the question is what are you going to fight for?

SilverTauron
08-21-2012, 11:14 AM
I have grappled with this question myself, and have long thought of taking the easy way out by emigrating back to my home state, Texas.

However, in thinking it further. . . I am reminded of the phrase "not one inch".

That ship has sailed. At the risk of repeating myself, there is no contest for control of the state between pro and anti-gun voters. The other side solidly won that phase of things in California a long time ago.




By ceding this battleground to the liberal socialists, we allow them to fortify their foothold, and begin preying on the rest of the US.

If they are allowed to take over CA, and begin encroaching on other states. . . will you leave the other states too? What happens when it is the last "free" state? What will you do then?


Its too late for that now. Uxi's point cannot be ignored. The liberal socialist have won the fight for power in California. My membership here is reflective of the fact that those liberal socialists elect lawmakers who bring their corrupt philosophy to Washington D.C., with the eventual goal of ensuring all of us in America live under the same "civilized" system as California. Feinstein and Co. are already preying on the rest of the US.

There is no "allowing them" to take over CA. They already run the state.





To me, the price of freedom and liberty is eternal vigilance. We must defend the ideals which this nation was founded upon, from threats external AND internal. And thus we must hold this thin, tenacious, fragile line. If not for us, then for our future generations. To use the liberals' phrasing against them. . . "think of your children".

Gun rights, like any other right, are perishable. There were people in 1776 who disliked the RKBA, and for a long time in America's history those folks held the floor on gun law debate. Now we're turning the tide against such bogus philosophy, but even if California, NJ, Illinois, NY and Hawaii repealed their onerous gun laws tomorrow we'd still have to keep watch.

Dark Paladin
08-21-2012, 11:28 AM
Personally, I feel the scenario offered up is a bit extreme. If the entire country fell into a socialistic/communistic set of values our 2A rights would be the least of my concerns and I would hardly call this place home any more. Since free speech, the right to assemble, freedom of religion would all be compromised as well as any other value we hold true.

Extreme, yes. But certainly within the realm of possibility. We have the transformation of Nazi Germany and the collapse of Greece's economic policies to show that it CAN happen. And that is the point I am trying to make, we are facing a full on ideological war that has lasted for decades, and we have been "giving inches" for decades. As far as freedom of speech, assembly, and religion, there are some alarming examples cropping up that should force us to seriously examine where we are and where do we go from here.

However, I think that in life there are cycles of opinions and mentalities. Kind of like a pendulum swinging back and forth with people on both sides of the center line. At times in our nations history we have seen more conservative values and less liberal ones, and now we are in a more liberal time than in the past. Just like before I think we will see a "swing" in the other direction, only to see it swing back at some point. It's part of life, however there's nothing wrong with fighting to keep the pendulum on the side you agree with for as long as you can. But in the end it will shift, the key is to fight to shift it back again. I think it goes without saying that life is a fight, until you are dead and in the ground the question is what are you going to fight for?

On this we agree. And by the same line of thought, it only takes good people to do nothing for statists to triumph. The pendulum will only swing back if we choose to do something about it. So to turn your original question around, at what point do we stop running and we start fighting back?

And just in case it hasn't been said, I do appreciate we are able to keep this discussion clean and on point. :thumbsup:

Masada86
08-21-2012, 12:00 PM
it only takes good people to do nothing for statists to triumph.

Great response, and I just wanted to add one thing about the above.

I completely agree, that's why it's our responsibility to fire up the "base" and get things moving. So discussion, and forums like this one are essential for staying in touch with the rest of the country and keeping people fired up about what they believe in and to stop giving inches.

Here's another question, with some of the more recent Pro 2A wins in DC, and in the supreme court do you feel like we are starting to take some inches instead of giving them?

Let's champion the success sorties too.

hangman7
08-21-2012, 7:36 PM
Monday I'm headed to Utah. A CA native, this state has been telling me they don't need me for years. Bad roads, screwy laws, out of control state and local govt. Enough.

Eldraque
08-21-2012, 7:38 PM
I want to move out of Cali once I get my Bachelors. Washington or Texas maybe.

Shorthair
08-21-2012, 7:55 PM
It's not just guns. I tried to buy the best portable generator I could and they were not California approved. Texas is the promised land. Pro-gun, no income tax, excellent climate for business, (more) affordable homes. California will implode soon. Texas will be the model for how California is re-built. And , no, I'm not a Texan.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
08-21-2012, 8:50 PM
I am almost 60 and I have lived in CA my entire life - as did my father's family as far back as I can check. My grandfather was a San Rafael Fire Chief who died on duty. Both my wife and I have served in fire and EMS agencies here and I am disabled as a result of that service. We are INVESTED in this state. I have friends and family here. Sadly, the wife and I, and probably my son and his family, will be leaving sometime within the next few years.

The hostility of this state towards gun rights is only one of the reasons we will leave - although it is probably number one on the list of threatened rights that I hold dear. Our list looks like this:

1) Lack of gun rights
2) Poor economy with little hope of recovery. Although I'm not working, my wife is and she continues to have her hours and her pay cut due to lack of business.
3) High cost of living
4) Hostility toward home schooling
5) Lack of good hunting opportunities at reasonable cost
6) A government that thinks nothing is not a legitimate issue for it to control.
7) High taxes

So, sometime in the next few years - as soon as we have a good opportunity we will move to Southern Idaho. Until then, and perhaps after, I will continue to fight for our freedoms here in California.

I also am (was) invested in the same area by virtue of 20+ years of law enforcement service (and became disabled as a result of that service), as well as friends and family ties... but as soon as I can put away the funds necessary, my wife and I are out of here. It'll be a little easier for us as neither of us were born in CA, both of us have lived in several other areas of the country and know that CA isn't all that. We have mostly the same reasons, but not quite in the same order. For us, it's more like:

1) High taxes - and getting higher as a fiscally irresponsible government roots deeper into the pockets of productive citizens

2) A government that thinks nothing is not a legitimate issue for it to control.

3) Poor economy with little hope of recovery.

4) High cost of living - with my wife and I both retired, I still had to find employment to make ends meet at a much lower standard of living than when I was working full time.

5) Lack of gun rights

6) Lack of good hunting opportunities at reasonable cost

I don't particularly care what the "cowardice" shouting trolls think about it, either.

nwp
08-22-2012, 8:27 AM
From another (mine) thread on the topic:



"The Great Seal provides some good laughs. It was designed by U.S. Army Major Robert S. Garnett, who became the first general to die in the Civil War. The grizzly bear appears on the Seal to represent strength, but the last grizzly was shot 90 years ago. The miner using his sluice box dredge represents golden opportunity, but such mining became a crime as of August of 2009. Sadly, the five ships that once represented the state’s economic power now represent the relocation companies taking that power away."

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCgWcCuaVtk/UB76X1qtfhI/AAAAAAAARWw/e3tPpTrx9YM/s512/Great%2520Seal.jpg http://ufocrashes.com/seal

Fixed a few things for you:)

njineermike
08-22-2012, 8:49 AM
Fixed a few things for you:)

Truncheons are illegal here. You missed that one.

efillc
08-22-2012, 9:22 AM
> At what point do you leave?

When the state bans private ownership of machine guns.

bubbapug1
08-22-2012, 9:42 AM
If your going to leave California over 10 round mags or an AR ban I will be happy to see you go, and take a couple of fat chicks with you as you leave...

No state has as much to offer in the way of natural beauty, recreation and career oppurtunities as California.

Texas is a shti hole, as is Arizona, ditto for Nevada, Florida, Dakota's, etc.

You may be able to carry a gun, but than again, in some of those places you REALLY need one.

Uxi
08-22-2012, 9:44 AM
Truncheons are illegal here. You missed that one.

Body armor is technically legal but she's just asking to get proned out for officer safety.

luvtolean
08-22-2012, 9:47 AM
5 generations of my large extended family is from CA. Almost everyone has left in the last 10-15 years. This is well over 50 people.

Stupid gun laws are just one of the symptoms of the core cause of so many of this state's most productive middle class citizens and businesses leaving.

wellerjohn
08-22-2012, 9:53 AM
I already gone...

njineermike
08-22-2012, 9:53 AM
5 generations of my large extended family is from CA. Almost everyone has left in the last 10-15 years. This is well over 50 people and literally millions of dollars of income.

Stupid gun laws are just one of the symptoms of the core cause of so many of this state's most productive middle class citizens and businesses leaving.

They have plenty of stupid intrusive laws to choose from here. The day my situation allows, me and my tax dollars will vote with the only thing we have left the state cares about: my money.

luvtolean
08-22-2012, 9:56 AM
They have plenty of stupid intrusive laws to choose from here. The day my situation allows, me and my tax dollars will vote with the only thing we have left the state cares about: my money.

Exactly my feelings.

ClarenceBoddicker
08-23-2012, 2:58 AM
In the US the date was 1934. In CA the date was 1989.

Arkive
08-23-2012, 6:29 AM
German is a good language -- a nice compliment to English. If you could do your job more effectively if you spoke Spanish (or nearly any Romance Language for that matter) and you cannot, then that's your shortcoming.

It's this exact line of thinking for why I will be leaving and why I think CA will never turn around. If ILLEGAL immigrants respected our country and had any loyalty to it, they would've came here legally in the first place and they would've learned how to speak English, but why should they? We have made it so easy for them not to. People like you think that we should all learn Spanish instead and print all of our paperwork in 100 different languages all for the sake of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. In fact, why not just make them all a protected class and give them all of our government entitlements and then while we're at it we should let them vote too... oh wait, we did that already?...

I will be leaving within the next 5-6yrs. My wife read an article about NH trying to "recruit" Libertarians to move there and grow the economy and keep NH a FREE state. We want to live with like minded people and have our kids grow up in a good environment, without worrying about what their whack job liberal teachers taught them today. I do have some old friends that moved to ID a few years ago, they love it and say it's the best decision they've ever made. So, ID or NH. I'll look into both states more when i get closer to when i can leave.

I think we all need to come to grips with the fact that there are some people that just have a different idea of how government should work and it just so happens that most of these people decided to live in CA and/or were brainwashed in CA's school system. It took decades for CA to become this F****D up and it will take decades to turn it around.. if it ever does turn around.

In the famous words of Joe Getty
"WE'RE SCROOMED!"

exklusve
08-23-2012, 6:57 AM
I left four months ago. Not because of the CA gun laws, but that is a very nice plus.
People say that no other state has what CA has, and all this other emotional blabber as their reasons of not wanting to leave the state.
People said the same **** about Fresno, where I used to live. How it is so close to all these nice things. Doesn't matter how close the nice things are if you live in a ****hole.
Now I live in a place with much cleaner air, a better school system for my son, forests within 45 minutes of my front door, ocean and the coast in less than two hours, and a job with much higher pay and better benefits than anything I could have ever had in Fresno. Given Fresno isn't exactly a hub for senior level IT jobs. If I wanted the better job in CA, I would have had to move to LA, or the bay area. See above about ****holes. Leaving isn't for everyone, but it has been great for me and my family.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

SPROCKET
08-23-2012, 6:57 AM
Actually it's you that displaying the self-absorption and ignorance...

Simply put, I'm not going to cut-and-run because I cannot have an AR variant configured exactly how I want it, replete with a 30 round mag. I'm not going to choose where I live because a certain handgun I covet is not on the roster. Neither the rifle restrictions or the roster are good things. But neither stop me from living in this great state and enjoying a huge plethora of firearms -- even if I moved here today. The correct response is to stand firm and work for real improvements and not to cut and run while mouthing bitter invectives.

I'm tired of the hateful and ignorant anti-California trolls trying to sell the notion that we can't own anything bigger than a Red Ryder BB gun. Pure bunkum! Before you pop-off with "just wait, you're headed towards BB guns in 3 years!" I'll remind you that the rest of the USA is becoming more and more like CA when it comes to guns. "Enough!" I am done feeding an anti-California trolls!

Twenty-three (23) years of doomsayers...

Well said. However, you're not going to get any traction around here if you don't sprinkle your posts more liberally with terms like "tyranny", "socialist", "fascist", "libtard", and "Kalifornia". One has to remember hyperbole, hysteria, and zealotry are attractive characteristics that will win more people over to our side.

JackRydden224
08-23-2012, 7:06 AM
I will not leave because of gun laws. I feel like if I leave because of gun laws then I'm running away from the fight instead of standing my ground. If I leave it will be for a much better paying job.

Ultimately guns isn't the only thing that matters in my life. I have family here. I have friends here.

Mr331
08-23-2012, 7:11 AM
I'm already gone. It's not about guns. It's about an out of control state government that reaches too far into my life. The problem is bigger than guns. It just depends on what's important to YOU. Im now in North Eastern Nevada and I'm very happy. Your mileage may vary.

Shorthair
08-23-2012, 7:13 AM
CALIFORNIA: Love it, leave it or shut the ~!@#$%^&*()_+ up! ????

I would think that hardcore Californian's would want intelligent & dedicated freedom loving people to stick around and help fight the battle. I'm glad I have someplace else to call home other than California.

Horton Fenty
08-23-2012, 7:41 AM
Only one option makes sense, never. This is my home. It's been my families home for a long time. I've been lots of other places and nothing can compare to California.

Now I live in a place with much cleaner air, a better school system for my son, forests within 45 minutes of my front door, ocean and the coast in less than two hours, and a job with much higher pay and better benefits than anything I could have ever had in Fresno. Given Fresno isn't exactly a hub for senior level IT jobs. If I wanted the better job in CA, I would have had to move to LA, or the bay area.

I swear it seems like sometimes people think California stops at about Redding. I know of two IT positions, a manager and a coordinator. Available in a town zero miles from the forest, two hours to the ocean, great school system, all in a county that doesn't have a single stop light and your biggest worry would be how to keep the deer from eating your Rhododendron.

exklusve
08-23-2012, 8:13 AM
Only one option makes sense, never. This is my home. It's been my families home for a long time. I've been lots of other places and nothing can compare to California.



I swear it seems like sometimes people think California stops at about Redding. I know of two IT positions, a manager and a coordinator. Available in a town zero miles from the forest, two hours to the ocean, great school system, all in a county that doesn't have a single stop light and your biggest worry would be how to keep the deer from eating your Rhododendron.

Two jobs? Still not impressed. What's the demand in this area for senior level IT jobs? And above all, whats the pay? There could be 300 IT jobs, in this area of 'milk and honey', but if they all are 45k a year then it might as well be zero. There were more than two in fresno, but low to mid range pay, if I lost my job I had there it would have been almost impossible to find a new job with the pay I had.
What is the cost of living, property taxes, and realestate costs? What are the schools like? See, there are lots of factors in play.

I'm familiar with all of California, even north of Redding. CA had nothing left to offer for me, so I got out, and I'm never looking back. :)

Oh yeah, I can now legally own 30+ rd mags, buy private party at gun shows, no need for bullet buttons, no safe handgun list, I can get an sbr now, my fishing licenses are half the price of CA, I can open carry.... I could keep going...


Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

Horton Fenty
08-23-2012, 8:38 AM
I'm familiar with all of California, even north of Redding. CA had nothing left to offer for me, so I got out, and I'm never looking back. :)

Well at least you got out to a place that's probably more similar to north California than the entire lower 2/3 of the actual state.

A lot of locals in the woods don't like it when people move up from down south. Me personally I hate to see people give up on California. I'd rather have them gtfo of the city and move up here.

Those two positions, in case your curious, pay 35-51k and 80-85k respectively for the coordinator and manager.

njineermike
08-23-2012, 8:41 AM
Well at least you got out to a place that's probably more similar to north California than the entire lower 2/3 of the actual state.

A lot of locals in the woods don't like it when people move up from down south. Me personally I hate to see people give up on California. I'd rather have them gtfo out the city and move up here.

Those two positions, in case your curious, pay 35-51k and 80-85k respectively for the coordinator and manager.

We didn't give up on California, it gave up on us. Well, to be dead honest, it gave up on caring what we think. It (as a state) has decided we need to be told what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and be charged money for the privelege of it. When I leave it won't be because I didn't want to fight, it will be because I know that sometimes there is good reason for a tactical retreat to higher ground. I'll stand my ground where the ground is firmer.

exklusve
08-23-2012, 8:52 AM
Well at least you got out to a place that's probably more similar to north California than the entire lower 2/3 of the actual state.

A lot of locals in the woods don't like it when people move up from down south. Me personally I hate to see people give up on California. I'd rather have them gtfo of the city and move up here.

Those two positions, in case your curious, pay 35-51k and 80-85k respectively for the coordinator and manager.

Not bad on the salaries. Expecially for a smaller town/city.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

Albino
08-23-2012, 9:33 AM
We didn't give up on California, it gave up on us. Well, to be dead honest, it gave up on caring what we think. It (as a state) has decided we need to be told what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and be charged money for the privelege of it. When I leave it won't be because I didn't want to fight, it will be because I know that sometimes there is good reason for a tactical retreat to higher ground. I'll stand my ground where the ground is firmer.

Very well said.

I've held off on thoughts of leaving, until recently. I have held on to the "stay and fight...they're not going to run me off" mind set.

I have finally come to realize, that no matter how many fingers keep being put into the cracks of the severely leaking damn called CA... There is no stopping the inevitable here. It's not going to prevent the damn from breaking, it's only going to keep getting worse.

I've officially "had it" with this state, and the majority of the mindset of people in this state. The worse it gets, the more they keep voting for it. There is nothing for me here anymore, and I would like to enjoy a taste of freedom someday, before I die...

To those that are willing to keep attempting to plug the cracks in the damn... Best of luck to you!



.

Horton Fenty
08-23-2012, 10:55 AM
When I leave it won't be because I didn't want to fight, it will be because I know that sometimes there is good reason for a tactical retreat to higher ground. I'll stand my ground where the ground is firmer.

That's a great attitude to have but I'd like to know how moving out of California qualifies as a tactical retreat or standing your ground. If you don't live here your not going to get a chance to vote on California subjects right? So how can you fight, or even be part of, a "war" that involves California residents from outside the state? Sure you can be a part of the nation wide right to keep and bear arms obviously, but how would you directly help California, with California specific problems, from another state? Honestly I'm just curious.

SilverTauron
08-23-2012, 11:22 AM
That's a great attitude to have but I'd like to know how moving out of California qualifies as a tactical retreat or standing your ground. If you don't live here your not going to get a chance to vote on California subjects right? So how can you fight, or even be part of, a "war" that involves California residents from outside the state? Sure you can be a part of the nation wide right to keep and bear arms obviously, but how would you directly help California, with California specific problems, from another state? Honestly I'm just curious.

Im curious what "war" you think you're fighting.

The votes of CA residents who care about gun rights and the US Constitution are so minor you may as well live out of state.At least in ID, NV, and other parts of the United States you can help the 2nd Amendment cause by supporting reps and elected officials who oppose the garbage that comes from CA-because god knows you don't stand a chance in hell of fixing it in the state from the ballot box.

All you guys who say "don't leave because who's going to oppose the statists" are missing the point-you aren't opposing them now. Court cases don't depend on population density, and the welfare state freeloaders have our side beat 10-1 come census time. With laws like DL for illegal aliens on the books in CA, the writing is on the wall.

Note that im not proposing we should abandon CA to the statists-my point is that one must fight smart. A guerilla force doesn't attack a superior enemy head on, and an individual gun owner in California doesn't stand a chance of influencing the anti's in government from changing their mind.

njineermike
08-23-2012, 11:54 AM
That's a great attitude to have but I'd like to know how moving out of California qualifies as a tactical retreat or standing your ground. If you don't live here your not going to get a chance to vote on California subjects right? So how can you fight, or even be part of, a "war" that involves California residents from outside the state? Sure you can be a part of the nation wide right to keep and bear arms obviously, but how would you directly help California, with California specific problems, from another state? Honestly I'm just curious.

Im curious what "war" you think you're fighting.

The votes of CA residents who care about gun rights and the US Constitution are so minor you may as well live out of state.At least in ID, NV, and other parts of the United States you can help the 2nd Amendment cause by supporting reps and elected officials who oppose the garbage that comes from CA-because god knows you don't stand a chance in hell of fixing it in the state from the ballot box.

All you guys who say "don't leave because who's going to oppose the statists" are missing the point-you aren't opposing them now. Court cases don't depend on population density, and the welfare state freeloaders have our side beat 10-1 come census time. With laws like DL for illegal aliens on the books in CA, the writing is on the wall.

Note that im not proposing we should abandon CA to the statists-my point is that one must fight smart. A guerilla force doesn't attack a superior enemy head on, and an individual gun owner in California doesn't stand a chance of influencing the anti's in government from changing their mind.

Better said than I ever could. Let's look at the big picture: We are outnumbered on MOST issues, not just 2A. Taxes, regulatory overreach, overspending, the creation of laws specifically designed for some special interest big donor, you name it, we don't have the guns to fight it.

Look at SB1221. It's a knee-jerk emotional reaction to something that ISN'T a problem, but it will pass, and was only modified in a way that makes it MORE onerous to hunting hounds in the state. Now, instead of simply banning a practice they don't approve of, they CHARGE for the use they moderately approve of, and in the process, creating yet ANOTHER reason to fine a citizen, which will likely require more oversight, meaning MORE public employees to administer it. The cycle continues, the beast grows another head.

This state is in the process of monetizing every aspect of life, and the benficiaries of this are also the ones voting in favor of the ones who foster it. If the state were to split into the coast and the rest of it, It might be a nice place to live, but as long as the bay area and LA control the politics of this state, we have no hope of fixing things at the ballot box, and hoping the courts are the answer is waiting a long time on a ship that might not show.

Robidouxs
08-23-2012, 12:32 PM
I left because it no longer made sense to live in a state where I could never buy a house, raise children, or open a business.

Best decision I ever made was to move to Arizona. Weather isn't everything. I feel considerably more free and less stressed out here than when I was living in the Bay Area. The pay is definitely not nearly as high but your $$$ goes considerably further.

Excelsior
08-24-2012, 2:17 PM
I left because it no longer made sense to live in a state where I could never buy a house, raise children, or open a business.

Best decision I ever made was to move to Arizona. Weather isn't everything. I feel considerably more free and less stressed out here than when I was living in the Bay Area. The pay is definitely not nearly as high but your $$$ goes considerably further.

Real estate prices really are a toughie and they have been for more than 40 years in CA. The high prices are a direct product of people wanting to live here.

It would be fascinating to understand what the percentage of people who whine about the quality of life in California either moved here or are the children of people who moved here? My guess is that it would be extremely high. Talk about irony.

There is no real why children cannot be raised well in CA, nor are their laws that prohibit people from opening a business.

Excelsior
08-24-2012, 2:18 PM
That's a great attitude to have but I'd like to know how moving out of California qualifies as a tactical retreat or standing your ground. If you don't live here your not going to get a chance to vote on California subjects right? So how can you fight, or even be part of, a "war" that involves California residents from outside the state? Sure you can be a part of the nation wide right to keep and bear arms obviously, but how would you directly help California, with California specific problems, from another state? Honestly I'm just curious.

Niiiiiiiiiice... ;)

jonzer77
08-24-2012, 3:02 PM
Real estate prices really are a toughie and they have been for more than 40 years in CA. The high prices are a direct product of people wanting to live here.

It would be fascinating to understand what the percentage of people who whine about the quality of life in California either moved here or are the children of people who moved here? My guess is that it would be extremely high. Talk about irony.

There is no real why children cannot be raised well in CA, nor are their laws that prohibit people from opening a business.

Born and raised here and my family has been here since the 1920's. California just isn't what it used to be and there is no way to deny it.

As for raising a kid, I would prefer that my kid doesn't have half of her class taught in Spanish because that is what would happen if I stayed where I currently live. My brother went through it and it really sucked. Sure I could move somewhere else in CA but if I am going to move my family, it won't be to stay here in CA.

I get it, you are happy with YOUR current situation in CA but everyone is different.

Bigbird19
08-24-2012, 3:21 PM
Left two weeks ago.. in Arkansas now, sure feels nice

bubbapug1
08-24-2012, 8:27 PM
It's this exact line of thinking for why I will be leaving and why I think CA will never turn around. If ILLEGAL immigrants respected our country and had any loyalty to it, they would've came here legally in the first place and they would've learned how to speak English, but why should they?

Yeah baby, you are so friggin right on the money - absolutely no doubt you are the man....and you know your history too..

I mean, its not like we took California through force of arms back in the 1848 and there were more mexicans in California than whites for a long period afterwards, and the native language is Spanish...other than that you have a valid point.

So who actually are the illegal aliens??? I am sure the Mexicans have a different view of this since California was mexico not too long ago. Not that I like illegal immigration, but who would work in all of the factories in LA doing countless millions of jobs for low wages, and who would mow the lawns, cook the food, watch countless children for rich white women who can't be bothered, and build the houses....oh, no ones building houses any longer because some white guys on wall street blew up the housing market...I forgot.

Power emanates from the barrel of the gun.....mao

Don't like mexicans or bullet buttons....I'll pay you $500.00 towards your moving expenses....

CEDaytonaRydr
08-24-2012, 8:44 PM
Need to add an option for "as soon as I can find a job offer for the same money I make here".

;)

fryer1979
08-24-2012, 9:50 PM
Missed my option: already gone...well mostly. My father moved my family out of the central state are up to the high desert of Lassen County back in 1988. I was only 8 then, so I grew up in the country; horses, cowboys, COWGIRLS, lifted 4 wheel drive trucks, gun rack, 30-06, etc. I tried to move to the Orange County (Huntington Beach) area right out of high school for some college. We'll just say my old F-150 on 35's with glass-packs and a gun rack was less than popular with the local authorities, and most of the population as well. I learned quick that I wanted nothing to do with that lifestyle, too much damn hurry over nothing. Moved back to the country and never looked back. Them big cities can do all they want, makes no nevermind to us up here.

"They can't starve us out, and they can't make us run, cuz we're them old boys raised on shotguns!"

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Excelsior
08-24-2012, 11:53 PM
Well at least you got out to a place that's probably more similar to north California than the entire lower 2/3 of the actual state.

A lot of locals in the woods don't like it when people move up from down south. Me personally I hate to see people give up on California. I'd rather have them gtfo of the city and move up here.

Those two positions, in case your curious, pay 35-51k and 80-85k respectively for the coordinator and manager.

You are aware there are rural parts of Central and Southern California as well, right?

Excelsior
08-25-2012, 12:26 AM
Born and raised here and my family has been here since the 1920's. California just isn't what it used to be and there is no way to deny it.

That true of any state in the union -- including Alaska.

As for raising a kid, I would prefer that my kid doesn't have half of her class taught in Spanish because that is what would happen if I stayed where I currently live. My brother went through it and it really sucked. Sure I could move somewhere else in CA but if I am going to move my family, it won't be to stay here in CA.

There is other options. Parochial schools, homeschooling and making sure your kids get into advanced programs that don't have the dual-language variable.

I get it, you are happy with YOUR current situation in CA but everyone is different.

That's exactly correct. I suspect a great man anti-California posters on these forums are dissatisfied with their current situations in life (for a variety of reasons) and feel that running will solve all of them -- which I doubt it will.

Excelsior
08-25-2012, 12:27 AM
I wonder how many people move from one state to California and then continue to monitor forums originating from their former states? ;)

Cylarz
08-25-2012, 12:33 AM
I'd like to go, but don't really feel like I can. The first question I ask myself is, "Where would I go?" The first thought I always have is Nevada or Oregon, but then I have to ask myself if the economy is any better in those places than it is here. I've been hearing wonderful things about the job market in Texas, North Dakota, and a few other places...but I always must ask myself if I'd really want to live in some flat, featureless state with humid summers and bitter cold winters. That's a biggie for me - many other states are beautiful in their own way, but none really have California's diversity of terrain and climate. Arizona and Nebraska and Minnesota and Vermont all look pretty much the same from one portion to the next, no matter what part of those states you visit.

I am not only a lifelong California resident, but have never really lived outside of the Sacramento Valley. I've grown accustomed to the hot, dry summers and relatively mild winters, though I wouldn't mind a cooler and wetter climate.

I bought a home in Sacramento a few years ago and have already put a lot of time and money into getting it the way I want it. I would like the opportunity to enjoy that investment for awhile.

As others have pointed out, the gun laws here are completely out of control, but that really is the least of our problems. I like to think that we can stop at least the worst of them (witness SB249's recent demise) or get the court system to slap down at least a few, as they did with DeLeon's bill to ban online handgun ammo sales. My opinion is that there's a conspiracy afoot in the state Legislature - these people are incrementally trying to make life here intolerable for gun owners and other groups who tend to vote Republican...so that we'll leave and they can then consolidate their hold on power even further than they already have.

Of far greater import is the anti-business stance of our state government - taxes and energy costs are too high and there are too many regulations on businesses. The state government thinks that raising taxes is going to solve our financial problems, when experience in the rest of the US has shown that this generally makes things worse.

More concerning still is the mindset of California's voters, the ones who keep putting people like Newsom, Kamala Harris, Ammaniano, Leiu, Skinner, DeLeon, and Yee in office in the first place. The last election was particularly troubling...the Democrats already had been in power in California for some time, their policies hadn't worked as far as getting the economy back on track...and our voters decided that the answer was giving them a complete sweep of the state government - supermajorities in both houses of the Legislature and all of the statewide offices. Facepalm.

I remember reading an article in the SacBee a few months ago that was talking about how some poll was taken and how it purports to show that the conservatives in this state are not just a minority, but continuing to shrink. I happen to think that this is largely due to productive citizens simply deciding that it's too expensive to do business here, pulling up stakes, and pulling out.

I would like to point out that California certainly isn't the only state that has problems with runaway illegal immigration. This is also the case in the other three border states, and increasingly also in other parts of the US, including the Midwest and even the northern states.

I would like to think about living somewhere else in the US later in life, once most of my relatives have passed away (the living ones are all here in CA now). The most bothersome aspect of our gun control laws is how some vendors living in other states simply refuse to do business with us, based on their PERCEPTION of our laws (not their actual wording).

Cylarz
08-25-2012, 12:36 AM
I wonder how many people move from one state to California and then continue to monitor forums originating from their former states? ;)

What's with the rah-rah cheerleading? Yeah, the weather's more tolerable and the terrain is interesting and the fresh produce is great. We get it. Some parts of the state are nicer to live in than others - I wouldn't live in Richmond or Oakland or Bakersfield or Fresno or most of LA if you paid me to do so.

Do you work for the California dept of tourism promotions or something? I've never run into quite such an enthusiastic apologist.

Horton Fenty
08-25-2012, 5:20 AM
The votes of CA residents who care about gun rights and the US Constitution are so minor you may as well live out of state. At least in ID, NV, and other parts of the United States you can help the 2nd Amendment cause by supporting reps and elected officials who oppose the garbage that comes from CA-because god knows you don't stand a chance in hell of fixing it in the state from the ballot box.

All you guys who say "don't leave because who's going to oppose the statists" are missing the point-you aren't opposing them now. Court cases don't depend on population density, and the welfare state freeloaders have our side beat 10-1 come census time. With laws like DL for illegal aliens on the books in CA, the writing is on the wall.

Note that im not proposing we should abandon CA to the statists-my point is that one must fight smart. A guerilla force doesn't attack a superior enemy head on, and an individual gun owner in California doesn't stand a chance of influencing the anti's in government from changing their mind.

So if I understand this right your saying since there are so few people in California that support gun rights and since the ones of us that do don't stand a chance changing anything, the rest of us may as well just move to another state.

I would call that a proposition for abandonment.

bubbapug1
08-27-2012, 7:03 PM
What's with the rah-rah cheerleading? Yeah, the weather's more tolerable and the terrain is interesting and the fresh produce is great. We get it. Some parts of the state are nicer to live in than others - I wouldn't live in Richmond or Oakland or Bakersfield or Fresno or most of LA if you paid me to do so.

Do you work for the California dept of tourism promotions or something? I've never run into quite such an enthusiastic apologist.


I agree with excsior. I'd rather live in LA or Oakland than Ny, Chicago, Miami, atlanta, Denver, etc.

I also lived in Houston. Talk about a shti hole. It's full of bugs and red necks, born agains married to their sister, etc. no zoning, high crime, and obnoxious ranchers who think their geniuses because because they have oil on land they grandfather gave them.

All you haters to our
Great state.....go!

99% of the rest of the world would love to live here. (I'm talking about OC, LA, San Diego, and ventura. I'm not talking about Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto, chico, etc. they are like texas, only with higher taxes and better schools.

Arkive
08-27-2012, 7:18 PM
Yeah baby, you are so friggin right on the money - absolutely no doubt you are the man....and you know your history too.. Why thank you!

I mean, its not like we took California through force of arms back in the 1848 and there were more mexicans in California than whites for a long period afterwards, and the native language is Spanish...other than that you have a valid point.

If you would look at a history book that goes back further then 1848 (I know you wont cause it doesn't help your argument) you would see that the Spanish took California through " force of arms"from the Native Americans, most notably the Aztecs, who's territory was the little place you like to call "Mexico". In fact you guy's even stole the name Mexico from them. None of that matters though cause we won the land fair and square and it wont be the last time a power takes land from someone else, it's been going on since the dawn of time.

So who actually are the illegal aliens???
By your logic you're still ILLEGAL
I am sure the Mexicans have a different view of this since California was mexico not too long ago.

and? It's not mexico and it hasn't been since 1848. Thus it belongs to the USA
Not that I like illegal immigration, but who would work in all of the factories in LA doing countless millions of jobs for low wages, and who would mow the lawns, cook the food, watch countless children for rich white women who can't be bothered, and build the houses....oh, no ones building houses any longer because some white guys on wall street blew up the housing market...I forgot.

Power emanates from the barrel of the gun.....mao

This has to be a joke, right? Who do you think did those jobs before ILLEGAL immigrants showed up? That's right AMERICANS did, but it's kinda hard to keep your job when a family of 5 will do the same job for the same wage as one American. Just ask my Grandfather (who's 3/4 Cherokee by the way) how he lost his job PICKING F****ING FRUITS, VEGETABLES, AND COTTON. So don't talk to me about "JOBS THAT AMERICANS WONT DO". The other side of my family for the most part were in construction until, guess what, they lost their jobs for the same reason. Oh, before I'm done ranting. I love the sprinkle of racism that you put in there.;)

Don't like mexicans or bullet buttons....I'll pay you $500.00 towards your moving expenses.... I'm not racist. I never said anything remotely racist, but i do love how a WHITE MAN can't say anything about ILLEGAL immigration without being labeled a racist. I'll still take the $500 though. :D

jonzer77
08-27-2012, 9:13 PM
I agree with excsior. I'd rather live in LA or Oakland than Ny, Chicago, Miami, atlanta, Denver, etc.

I also lived in Houston. Talk about a shti hole. It's full of bugs and red necks, born agains married to their sister, etc. no zoning, high crime, and obnoxious ranchers who think their geniuses because because they have oil on land they grandfather gave them.

All you haters to our
Great state.....go!

99% of the rest of the world would love to live here. (I'm talking about OC, LA, San Diego, and ventura. I'm not talking about Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto, chico, etc. they are like texas, only with higher taxes and better schools.

:rofl:

I think your percentage of people wanting to live in SoCal is way off.

SilverTauron
08-27-2012, 9:24 PM
So if I understand this right your saying since there are so few people in California that support gun rights and since the ones of us that do don't stand a chance changing anything, the rest of us may as well just move to another state.

I would call that a proposition for abandonment.

You can call it abandonment if you want. I describe it as fighting where it actually counts. Your neighbors have decided that the current Democrat administration is doing exactly what they want them to, and there's no sign that the California electorate's going to change their minds on the subject.

The choices for you guys are simple. Stick around, and join the Liberal Experiment to its bitter, expensive, violent, disarmed conclusion-or leave for better locales. Note that the reason states outside of CA don't follow that sorry playbook is BECAUSE the neighbors and people of Texas, NV, and other states refuse to put up with the kind of mismanagement that's wanted in California. When sleazy Democrats tried to ban guns in the Vermont state capitol building by decree, the locals staged a loaded Open Carry protest in the legislative chambers. You have to ask yourself the question of how you can put up with living among people who think a videogame with guns in it is a 'violent influence'.

sharxbyte
08-27-2012, 11:31 PM
I'm all for fighting for our rights, and I'll stay here as long as we don't lose our rights. the point is, that once the time comes were we can only own a gun for hunting, or certain types of rifles or handguns are outlawed further, it means that the system has failed and can no longer be relied on. If it comes to force before I have the opportunity to make a tactical retreat, then I'll fight alongside you all, but once CA falls, if it indeed does fall, then sitting in it makes no more sense than sitting in a submarine with a leak. Eventually, you die, no matter how hard you fight or deny it.

Uxi
08-28-2012, 7:49 AM
In context of this thread, "fighting" can mean one of three things:

1) armed revolution/outlaw
2) passive/aggressive disobedience (aka burying weapons at the various poll choices in the back yard)
or
3) compliance with the ban(s) and grumbling it about it CGN and contributing to SAF, CGF, CRPA, etc for the lawsuits. Possibly lobbying but that's probably tilting at windmills, at best, given the composition of the legislature.

Excelsior
08-28-2012, 7:59 AM
I left four months ago. Not because of the CA gun laws, but that is a very nice plus.
People say that no other state has what CA has, and all this other emotional blabber as their reasons of not wanting to leave the state.
People said the same **** about Fresno, where I used to live. How it is so close to all these nice things. Doesn't matter how close the nice things are if you live in a ****hole.
Now I live in a place with much cleaner air, a better school system for my son, forests within 45 minutes of my front door, ocean and the coast in less than two hours, and a job with much higher pay and better benefits than anything I could have ever had in Fresno. Given Fresno isn't exactly a hub for senior level IT jobs. If I wanted the better job in CA, I would have had to move to LA, or the bay area. See above about ****holes. Leaving isn't for everyone, but it has been great for me and my family.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

You went to OR to get paid more? Really? Hmmm...

The "larger" cities in OR don't seem to be all that wonderful to me. More than a few are "****holes", especially when it comes to drugs.

Good luck.

Excelsior
08-28-2012, 8:05 AM
I agree with excsior. I'd rather live in LA or Oakland than Ny, Chicago, Miami, atlanta, Denver, etc.

I also lived in Houston. Talk about a shti hole. It's full of bugs and red necks, born agains married to their sister, etc. no zoning, high crime, and obnoxious ranchers who think their geniuses because because they have oil on land they grandfather gave them.

All you haters to our
Great state.....go!

99% of the rest of the world would love to live here. (I'm talking about OC, LA, San Diego, and ventura. I'm not talking about Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto, chico, etc. they are like texas, only with higher taxes and better schools.

I used to live in Los Angeles. Part of that time was in the San Fernando Valley and its 105+ degree summer days. Not my favorite part of CA.

I remember spending four days in Houston on business. Houston made LA look (and feel) like 17 Mile Drive in Pebble Beach. I remember getting on the plane and feeling fortunate to be heading back to Los Angeles.

Excelsior
08-28-2012, 8:07 AM
:rofl:

I think your percentage of people wanting to live in SoCal is way off.

If you were right, housing prices in LA, OC and San Diego Counties wouldn't be so darned high. Nice try.

Excelsior
08-28-2012, 8:17 AM
This has to be a joke, right? Who do you think did those jobs before ILLEGAL immigrants showed up? That's right AMERICANS did, but it's kinda hard to keep your job when a family of 5 will do the same job for the same wage as one American. Just ask my Grandfather (who's 3/4 Cherokee by the way) how he lost his job PICKING F****ING FRUITS, VEGETABLES, AND COTTON. So don't talk to me about "JOBS THAT AMERICANS WONT DO". The other side of my family for the most part were in construction until, guess what, they lost their jobs for the same reason. Oh, before I'm done ranting. I love the sprinkle of racism that you put in there.;)

I'm not racist. I never said anything remotely racist, but i do love how a WHITE MAN can't say anything about ILLEGAL immigration without being labeled a racist. I'll still take the $500 though.

You might believe you're a "racist" but you're clearly ignorant. Let's begin at the end. Many, many, many Mexicans are "WHITE MEN." A great many more are "white women." Ponder that a bit before you make racist comments again -- even though your ill-formed makes you feel "I'm not racist. I never said anything remotely racist."

Now let's talk the labor intensive ag jobs. Many simply did not exist for the first 50 or so years of CA's existence as a state. Those that did were dominated by Americans of Mexican descent The next 50 or so years they were still largely staffed by Americans of Mexican descent and Americans of Japanese descent but it was a whole helluva lot fairer and easier to become a citizen in those days.

Many of these people in California were booted back to Mexico during the Great Depression when trash from the east/south came here looking for work. Along came WWII and the USA required even more manpower so we created the Bracero Program. And not only for ag jobs -- but all the tough jobs in steel mills, oil refineries, the railroads and shipyards that no one else wanted to do. I hope I don't have to mention what happened to the Americans of Japanese descent during this period.

You need to pick up a history book sometime and actually make an effort to read it.

CenterMass90068
08-28-2012, 8:27 AM
My plan right now is to stay out here and continue to operate my business. I've been researching land for sale back in NC and hope to p/u at least a hundred acres or more somewhere in the Blue Ridge Mountains one day soon. If CA decides to come after my firearms no matter if their handguns or rifles I'm outta here. In the meantime I plan on fighting all gun control legislature here in CA.

jonzer77
08-28-2012, 11:26 AM
If you were right, housing prices in LA, OC and San Diego Counties wouldn't be so darned high. Nice try.

So you think 99% of the world wants to live in SoCal? Nice try.

pc_load_letter
08-28-2012, 11:35 AM
While the gun controls in and of themselves won't make me leave, what will is the overall political climate of this state.

I read today on Sacbee.com that the state assembly is two seats away from a super majority. If they get that, it will mean tax increases can be implemented at will.

If a quality republican is not put on the governs race ballot, I will have to start thinking about it and looking at job opportunities elsewhere.

jonzer77
08-28-2012, 12:14 PM
While the gun controls in and of themselves won't make me leave, what will is the overall political climate of this state.

I read today on Sacbee.com that the state assembly is two seats away from a super majority. If they get that, it will mean tax increases can be implemented at will.

If a quality republican is not put on the governs race ballot, I will have to start thinking about it and looking at job opportunities elsewhere.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/28/4520612/california-democrats-bid-for-two.html

Yes this scares the crap out of me and no matter what California apologists say here, that is not good.

CCWFacts
08-28-2012, 1:22 PM
I'm considering leaving. It's not just for the 2A reasons. I know the Democrats will gain a super-majority in November, and nothing will stop them from raising taxes to infinity. They will do it because the SEIU needs to plug a half-trillion dollar hole in the pension obligations. This state has gone on Enron-style accounting (crippling off-the-books liabilities) and it will catch up with us. I don't want to be the last taxpayer trying to sell his home and get out of state. Already in Los Angeles, there's no more traffic on Wilshire Blvd because it wrecks your car. And more taxes won't fix Wilshire because additional revenue needs to fill the pension hole first, before it can be used to fill the holes in the streets.

Once LA can no longer pave its streets and provide a normal first-world type of living environment, businesses will not want to locate here, and we can enter a Detroit-style tax death spiral. We've already had 4 (?) cities go into BK in the past few years, and many more are circling the drain. Los Angeles is heading for bankruptcy, and the argument I hear saying that it won't happen is that LA is too big to go bankrupt. This is not true. It can.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01538/police-fire_1538655i.jpg
Riots in Greece, as Greece runs out of money. Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/6753496/Greece-riots-masked-youths-smash-store-windows-and-hurl-firebombs-at-riot-police-in-Athens.html)

Due to demographic changes, it is obvious to me that the situation here will never reverse, and it makes no difference what the GOP does. They can run any candidate, take any policy positions, and they will still lose, because at the end of the day, this is the brand message:


Democrats: the government should help people and make things fair
Republicans: the government should make the rules fair and get out of the way, and people are responsible for themselves


The Democratic brand message resonates strongly with Hispanic voters. The Republican message never will. Game over for the GOP. Immigration, abortion, teaching evolution in schools, etc, all mean nothing compared to these core brand messages.

Already the GOP is unable to attract high-quality candidates to compete in this state. They get a field of C-list pretenders with no name recognition, organizational skills, or money. None of this is going to change within any of our lifetimes.

2pbp0hur9RU
Can you imagine Hispanic voters being won by this speech? Answer that question and you'll understand why the GOP is finished in this state.

sakosf
08-28-2012, 1:44 PM
[QUOTE=CCWFacts;9219812]I'm considering leaving. It's not just for the 2A reasons. I know the Democrats will gain a super-majority in November, and nothing will stop them from raising taxes to infinity. They will do it because the SEIU needs to plug a half-trillion dollar hole in the pension obligations. This state has gone on Enron-style accounting (crippling off-the-books liabilities) and it will catch up with us. I don't want to be the last taxpayer trying to sell his home and get out of state. Already in Los Angeles, there's no more traffic on Wilshire Blvd because it wrecks your car. And more taxes won't fix Wilshire because additional revenue needs to fill the pension hole first.

Blame for the pension problem primarily belongs to the legislature. They are the ones who enacted the changes to the public employee pension system around 1999. The demographic changes in California make it very unlikely that the makeup of the legislature will change.

Uxi
08-28-2012, 1:54 PM
The Democratic brand message resonates strongly with Hispanic voters. The Republican message never will. Game over for the GOP. Immigration, abortion, teaching evolution in schools, etc, all mean nothing compared to these core brand messages.

Already the GOP is unable to attract high-quality candidates to compete in this state. They get a field of C-list pretenders with no name recognition, organizational skills, or money. None of this is going to change within any of our lifetimes.

2pbp0hur9RU
Can you imagine Hispanic voters being won by this speech? Answer that question and you'll understand why the GOP is finished in this state.

The demographics are fairly irreversible, that's true, but there are many aspects of Mexican-American culture, in particular that are in contravention of the Democrats conventional wisdom, particularly on social issues like abortion and homosexuality. I'd argue there's also room on the right to keep and bear arms, and even the immigration argument to a lesser extent (1st generation descendants as well as the legal immigrants themselves are not nearly as hostile to the Republican illegal immigration tact as amongst the "Americanized" 2nd generation+.

Just needs a generation of Latino conservatives to come up and bring that message "natively" rather than the prototypical WASPs.

The single biggest problem is the cyclical issue of the public employees getting benefits granted by their creatures in the legislature that are entirely Democrats. If the collective bargaining can be addressed, if not items like prop 32, the Democrats could be neutered much faster. They'll fight like hell to avoid that, though and the State will probably have to hit rock bottom before the larger message gets more receptive. I've long said the Republican problems have been organizational failures rather than ideological repudiation from the California electorate. The flight of businesses and producers and tax paying citizens being replaced by consumers and immigrants doesn't help, though. Down to 1 in 6 California citizens as private sector employees.

CCWFacts
08-28-2012, 2:01 PM
The demographics are fairly irreversible,

Yes they are. Especially with the various under-the-radar amnesty ploys, and chain migration.

that's true, but there are many aspects of Mexican-American culture, in particular that are in contravention of the Democrats conventional wisdom, particularly on social issues like abortion and homosexuality.

Absolutely right. And Republicans have been pointing this out for a while now: "Look, they're not atheists! They're going to wake up and start voting Republican!"

But it hasn't happened and will never happen, because the Democratic message is, "the government should help people and make things fair for everyone", and that trumps all the other ideological issues. The Republicans need to realize this sooner than later. The flow of government benefits outweighs any ideological views.

sakosf
08-28-2012, 2:26 PM
http://www.capitolweekly.net/article.php?xid=zp427vwz5cxzfz

pc_load_letter
08-28-2012, 8:36 PM
Yup, the GOP is exactly that...OLD. They have failed to adapt to the times and is clearly evident that they do not wish to (as shown in the convention rhetoric of today). Their inability to attract young voters will be their downfall.

Their bible-thumping only serves to drive others away. Me included. I was raised a conservative republican and I could care less about gay marriage, let them marry whomever they want.

I have no right to tell a woman what to do with their body. While I abhor abortion, if my wife was raped and became pregnant, I'd drive her to the clinic. I'd beg for mercy later.

Nah, the GOP is doomed and like it was rightly stated above, hispanics in CA care more about deportation and the ability for their kids to go to college...cheaply versus religious convictions.

The CA GOP needs their own version of Gavin Newsome. Young, good looking, fiscally conservative yet middle of the road on social issues. *while this is not Newsome, I hope you understand my POV.

Arkive
08-29-2012, 7:21 AM
You might believe you're a "racist" but you're clearly ignorant. Let's begin at the end. Many, many, many Mexicans are "WHITE MEN." A great many more are "white women." Ponder that a bit before you make racist comments again -- even though your ill-formed makes you feel "I'm not racist. I never said anything remotely racist."
Please point me to where I was racist or even wrong.

Now let's talk the labor intensive ag jobs. Many simply did not exist for the first 50 or so years of CA's existence as a state. Those that did were dominated by Americans of Mexican descent The next 50 or so years they were still largely staffed by Americans of Mexican descent and Americans of Japanese descent but it was a whole helluva lot fairer and easier to become a citizen in those days.

Many of these people in California were booted back to Mexico during the Great Depression when trash from the east/south LOL I'M THE RACISTcame here looking for work. Along came WWII and the USA required even more manpower so we created the Bracero Program. And not only for ag jobs -- but all the tough jobs in steel mills, oil refineries, the railroads and shipyards that no one else wanted to do. I hope I don't have to mention what happened to the Americans of Japanese descent during this period.
What does any of this have to do with what i posted? Are you trying to prove white people are racist? Yes, Mexicans were booted back to Mexico during the great depression. What do you want me to tell you?

The Bracero Program was to bring Mexicans here to do ag jobs while Americans were off fighting WWII. It's kinda hard to do your job when your at war. Women (i.e. Rosie the Riveter), teens, and everyone else that stayed behind did the factory jobs and any other job you can think of. The Bracero Program was an agreement between the USA and Mexico for fair wages on a guest worker program and it was such a great success that ILLEGAL immigrants started coming here and doing the job for less then the "Braceros" and driving down wages. Which brought about Cesar Chavez and the UFW. Did you know Cesar Chavez was ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION? I guess that makes him a ignorant racist too.

I'm done feeding the TROLL.

CCWFacts
08-29-2012, 9:22 AM
You might believe you're a "racist" but you're clearly ignorant. Let's begin at the end. Many, many, many Mexicans are "WHITE MEN." A great many more are "white women."

You are absolutely correct. For more information on this, see casta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta) Wiki page. Mexican oompapa music is actually due to Mexico's German heritage. Mexico was for a brief time affiliated with the Austrian empire.

However... Mexico is a racially stratified society and white Mexicans are not inclined to sneak across our border to do ag work. The current flood of illegals are mostly non-white, who are not economically successful in Mexico.. Some don't even speak Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca) and technically are not Hispanic. Most are uneducated. Most of their children do poorly in school, with the worst drop-out rates of any ethnic group (http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=16), even in our dumbed-down can't-fail school systems. Welfare and public service dependency is very high. What will happen to us politically and socially if we try to absorb millions of uneducated immigrants, and also provide them with a host of free services, including free (ie, very expensive) healthcare? This is a major social experiment we're running, one with enormous stakes, and no one has convincing evidence that it's going to turn out ok.

Now let's talk the labor intensive ag jobs.

90% of which have been automated out of existence over the past 100 years, and the remaining 10% will be automated away within the next ten years. No humans in America will be needed to pick crops in 2025.

You need to pick up a history book sometime and actually make an effort to read it.

I'm pretty well informed about things. I wish for more open and honest discussion of what impact mass Hispanic immigration will have. It already has had a huge impact on California politics, and that is about to repeat itself in the US as a whole. Already today, Republicans cannot possibly win a national election without winning Florida, and they are only able to do so by a very thin margin. With increasing Hispanic population, they will not be able to win Florida, or the presidency, at all. The US will become a one-party country, like Mexico. This has overwhelming implications for the RKBA and many other aspects of American society, and yet it is taboo to discuss it.