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View Full Version : Buddy Has a 1911 Frame?????????


1911whore
06-12-2007, 9:17 AM
I have a buddy(my best friend) he has a 1911 frame and no longer wants it. He thought he was going to build(or have me build for him) a custom 1911 for USPSA limited div. it is a SV and he wants to just give it to me. Can this legally be done. He lives in North Carolina.

randy
06-12-2007, 9:46 AM
no it's not legal

1911whore
06-12-2007, 9:50 AM
i guess my question is. Is there a legal way for him to give, gift, transfer, or sell me the frame??

s281c
06-12-2007, 9:56 AM
i guess my question is. Is there a legal way for him to give, gift, transfer, or sell me the frame??

unfortunately not, because it is not on the "safe" handgun list, nor neither is he an immediate family member.

1911whore
06-12-2007, 9:57 AM
can i say he is my brother from another mother???:):)

bwiese
06-12-2007, 10:06 AM
can i say he is my brother from another mother???:):)

Nope. If you have a mom, dad, grandparent, or of-age kid or grandkid in that state, the dude could give it to him (depends on state laws there) and then the appropriate recipient party could transfer it to you as 'interfamilial'.

To clarify, an FFL transfer would be required to go across state lines, but there would be a DROS exemption for handgun roster due to Interfamilial.

leelaw
06-12-2007, 10:07 AM
can i say he is my brother from another mother???:):)

Intrafamilial transfers are not legal sideways along the family tree, only up and down (parent, child, etc..)

The only legal way to get that into CA is for someone moving into CA to bring it with them, register it, then grow tired of it and sell it.

1911whore
06-12-2007, 10:11 AM
thanks

Kruzr
06-12-2007, 10:14 AM
Hmmm, since you are a gunsmith and legally must have an FFL to hold a serial numbered piece overnight, you could accept it to work on, log it into your bound book, and just be working on it for a long time. :)

dfletcher
06-12-2007, 11:46 AM
A related question - what if a CA resident already had a 1911 frame in his possession? What if anything can be done to register or lawfully own the frame?

bwiese
06-12-2007, 12:23 PM
A related question - what if a CA resident already had a 1911 frame in his possession?
What if anything can be done to register or lawfully own the frame?

It is lawfully owned - you have it. You can retain it as a frame, build it up into a full-house race gun, PPT it to a fellow Calgunner, or hang it off your chandelier.

The only things that would make it unlawful would be:
if you got it via illegal unpapered-PPT after Dec 31 1990,
violated Federal law by acquiring it as a Californian outside of CA with no CA FFL involved;
if you moved into CA with it on/after Jan 1 1998 as a 'personal handgun importer' and didn't register it with DOJ w/requisite $19-per-gun fee.


Until SB15 'safe handgun' laws became active a few years ago, 1911 frames were sold at just about every gunshop in CA.

If the latter case - moving into CA with it on/after 1/1/1998 and failing to register it, one can simply file with DOJ. There is a 'cleanup'/protection in the law that stops prosecution for late filing as a personal handgun importer once a filing is made, no matter how late filing is made.

dfletcher
06-12-2007, 12:31 PM
Bill,

Side issue regarding a CA based discussion on another forum (rhymes with "TB"). A WWII vet has a 1911 bring back he wants to sell. He & the gun have been in CA since 1946, never registered. Is there any problem & how does he execute the sale to another CA resident? Would this be a simple PPT or something else involved like having the current owner do DOJ filing?

s281c
06-12-2007, 2:30 PM
Bill,

Side issue regarding a CA based discussion on another forum (rhymes with "TB"). A WWII vet has a 1911 bring back he wants to sell. He & the gun have been in CA since 1946, never registered. Is there any problem & how does he execute the sale to another CA resident? Would this be a simple PPT or something else involved like having the current owner do DOJ filing?

all he has to do is ppt it to the buyer, and of course the buyer has to have a HSC.

m1match
06-12-2007, 2:37 PM
You can do a face to face private party transfer of any legally owned handgun with a CA resident. A WWII bringback in the state since 1946 certainly would be good for a PPT since it was legally owned in CA long before the Gun Control Act of 1968 or any other California gun regulation.

1064chubbs
06-12-2007, 2:39 PM
I had an ffl dealer here in Orange County say he could receive a stripped handgun frame with a serial number and DROS it, I just needed the HSC.:confused:

1064chubbs
06-12-2007, 2:41 PM
Also if anyone wants to build their own gun just buy an 80% frame and finish it if you have the time to put in the work. (this is how I got my first .45 at the age of 18) Although you would not be able to legaly sell the completed frame because it has no serial number.

bwiese
06-12-2007, 2:50 PM
A WWII vet has a 1911 bring back he wants to sell. He & the gun have been in CA since 1946, never registered. Is there any problem & how does he execute the sale to another CA resident? Would this be a simple PPT or something else involved like having the current owner do DOJ filing?

Remember, most guns don't need to be registered/DROSed (exception is for those moving in on or after 1/1/98 w/handguns, and for any new transfers on or after 1/1/1991). Millions of guns are legally owned that are unregistered. There is only mandatory registration for AWs.

This vet's guns are like any other Californian's unpapered or papered guns undergoing a PPT. (Now, if he resided outside CA, the whole 'safe gun' roster would come into play.)

Nothing else to it; any gun not an AW (or NFA, etc.) can be PPT'd to another Californian. Both parties go to an FFL (unless it's handled cross-state via 'gun show transaction' exemption on DOJ DROS computer screen) and fill out forms, and the new purchaser picks up his toy 10 days later.

bwiese
06-12-2007, 2:54 PM
I had an ffl dealer here in Orange County say he could receive a stripped handgun frame with a serial number and DROS it, I just needed the HSC.:confused:

He's just plain wrong.

For a nonexempt handgun to be imported for resale via FFL (i.e., not a PPT transfer), the firearm must be currently Rostered on 'the list', and the handgun must be complete/unmodified (i.e, changes to grips or sights only allowed, nothing else!) A frame doesn't count, even if the make/model # are specifically on the Roster.

Exempt from this are single-action revolvers and single-shot pistols larger than the minimum sizes/bbl lengths specified in 12133PC.

bwiese
06-12-2007, 3:04 PM
Also if anyone wants to build their own gun just buy an 80% frame and finish it if you have the time to put in the work. (this is how I got my first .45 at the age of 18) Although you would not be able to legaly sell the completed frame because it has no serial number.

Not quite. I wish you would stop spreading misinformation.

You can indeed serialize your own frame/gun ("Billy Bob #0001"). You should, however, sell it well after its creation, and do it with a rarer-than-hen's-teeth frequency so you don't get caught up in any fed or state issues of 'manufacturing'.

Also many folks may well be getting into trouble with the "80%" concept.

THERE IS NO 80% TERMINOLOGY IN THE LAW. It was used as a rough descriptor that a hunk of metal would take a significant amount of work to render into gun status. That amount of work has never been specified/codified: one man's 80% is another man's 95% or a stupid idiot's 44%; these amounts vary with skill and tooling available. What Dlask Arms or the nutjob in Montana says is 80% is very likely not what someone else in authority (BATF, DOJ) might well say.

If you are doing such work it should be done from well-near-scratch, and not just take an hour or so to mill an area and drill a few holes.

The danger of acquiring so-called '80%' frames without paperwork is if someone regards it as too close to a finished gun that it is a gun - then you've just acquired a frame across state lines without assistance of an FFL, which is a Federal crime on top of any state crimes.

One Calgunner has already had troubles with "80% receivers" for WWII-style pistol-caliber carbines and almost had a jail term for NFA SMG stuff. The fact that he was trying to keep his carbine CA compliant with the CA AW ban likely helped keep things minimized (other than lawyers' fees).

Another Calgunner received bent AK flats with holes when just plain flats were ordered. That smells radioactively bad to me and sounds like someone's trying to work off charges.

TMC
06-12-2007, 3:18 PM
SV Infinity still has a stainless 45 on the list. If the frame is stainless and if it had a 45 top end on it when it got here it should be legal. The list does not specify any model number, just stainless steel, 5" barrel, 45acp cal.

shooterx10
06-12-2007, 3:24 PM
If he's a member of the USPSA he can sell it in the classifieds section (which is open to members only). I'm sure someone in the free states will pick it up if the price is right.

bwiese
06-12-2007, 3:53 PM
SV Infinity still has a stainless 45 on the list. If the frame is stainless and if it had a 45 top end on it when it got here it should be legal. The list does not specify any model number, just stainless steel, 5" barrel, 45acp cal.

The reference would be to the configuration of the gun as tested & certified.
If it were different configuration, materials, etc. it's not regardable as listed/certified, etc.

The SoCal Gunner
06-12-2007, 3:56 PM
I had an ffl dealer here in Orange County say he could receive a stripped handgun frame with a serial number and DROS it, I just needed the HSC.:confused:

Care to PM me his info? I'm sure he probably meant any handgun frame from a handgun that is on the roster. But if he means any handgun shoot me a PM. :D

1064chubbs
06-12-2007, 3:57 PM
Not quite. I wish you would stop spreading misinformation.

You can indeed serialize your own frame/gun ("Billy Bob #0001"). You should, however, sell it well after its creation, and do it with a rarer-than-hen's-teeth frequency so you don't get caught up in any fed or state issues of 'manufacturing'.

Also many folks may well be getting into trouble with the "80%" concept.

THERE IS NO 80% TERMINOLOGY IN THE LAW. It was used as a rough descriptor that a hunk of metal would take a significant amount of work to render into gun status. That amount of work has never been specified/codified: one man's 80% is another man's 95% or a stupid idiot's 44%; these amounts vary with skill and tooling available. What Dlask Arms or the nutjob in Montana says is 80% is very likely not what someone else in authority (BATF, DOJ) might well say.

If you are doing such work it should be done from well-near-scratch, and not just take an hour or so to mill an area and drill a few holes.

The danger of acquiring so-called '80%' frames without paperwork is if someone regards it as too close to a finished gun that it is a gun - then you've just acquired a frame across state lines without assistance of an FFL, which is a Federal crime on top of any state crimes.

One Calgunner has already had troubles with "80% receivers" for WWII-style pistol-caliber carbines and almost had a jail term for NFA SMG stuff. The fact that he was trying to keep his carbine CA compliant with the CA AW ban likely helped keep things minimized (other than lawyers' fees).

Another Calgunner received bent AK flats with holes when just plain flats were ordered. That smells radioactively bad to me and sounds like someone's trying to work off charges.

I know you can serialize it but I did not plan on resale and I cant serialize it or sale it now because it was stolen from me :mad: along with a few of my pre-ban mags and rifles.

1064chubbs
06-12-2007, 3:59 PM
And like I said you have to be willing to put in the hours to build one which I would not do anymore when I can just buy a finished .45 at the gun shop.

M. D. Van Norman
06-12-2007, 5:06 PM
And don’t forget that C&R handguns are exempt from the “safety” requirements. ;)

bwiese
06-12-2007, 5:11 PM
I'm sure he probably meant any handgun frame from a handgun that is on the roster.

Well that's just wrong/illegal.

The Roster of Not-Unsafe handguns is really the Roster of Completely Assembled Operational Handguns With Identical Parts to the Tested Guns.

A handgun frame, even if name/model# is on Roster, is simply not sellable by a dealer. It can only be PPT'd between two CA residents.