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cbsdd
08-07-2012, 9:25 AM
Interesting situation, wonder what else he could do?
http://pe.com/local-news/san-bernardino-county/san-bernardino-county-headlines-index/20120807-rancho-cucamonga-off-duty-officer-shoots-at-fleeing-man.ece

Dannicus
08-07-2012, 10:39 AM
Pretty much nothing.

RazzB7
08-07-2012, 10:41 AM
IBTL This thread will go sideways just because he's a cop. Never mind that any one of us would at least want to do the same thing and may have done the same thing.

em9sredbeam
08-07-2012, 10:49 AM
IBRS In before Ron Solo. I don't think that was a smart thing for the officer to do. Too Hard to shoot accurately and someone could have caught a stray.

5thgen4runner
08-07-2012, 10:51 AM
IBRS In before Ron Solo. I don't think that was a smart thing for the officer to do. Too Hard to shoot accurately and someone could have caught a stray.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
08-07-2012, 11:03 AM
An LEO can use deadly force against a fleeing suspect if he can articulate the factors that lead him to believe that the suspect is a proximate danger to the community. In this case, the suspect striking the officer with his vehicle is probably sufficient to satisfy that requirement.

Many agencies, however, have policies regarding shooting at or from a moving vehicle. My former agency had such a policy in place at the time I retired. Perhaps this officer's agency did not.

Given the lack of detail cited, I can't say whether I would have responded in the same fashion or not.

cbsdd00
08-07-2012, 12:44 PM
I need to delete my old account. Anywho, I was wondering if this happened to us what would be the smartest thing to do. If we saw someone coming out of our house could we legally subdue them on our property by means of force?? Or just call the cops with a plate number if we could get it?

Grumpyoldretiredcop
08-07-2012, 1:56 PM
I need to delete my old account. Anywho, I was wondering if this happened to us what would be the smartest thing to do. If we saw someone coming out of our house could we legally subdue them on our property by means of force?? Or just call the cops with a plate number if we could get it?

Unless you're an LEO, your right to use deadly force ends when there is no longer an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm or injury to yourself or another. Getting in the way of a fleeing burglary suspect is probably not the best thing you could do. If circumstances placed you in front of the suspect's vehicle with no other option, you could certainly articulate the basis of a belief that you were in imminent danger of death, great bodily harm or injury and would have a defense (note the phrasing, it's important) if you used deadly force.

Could you subdue the suspect on your property by means of force other than deadly force? Certainly, as long as the level of force was reasonable in light of the resistance encountered. Don't run down the street chasing the suspect and beating him with a baseball bat as happened in my home town a few years ago... that will get you talked about and maybe charged (although that homeowner was not charged). You run the attendant risk of lawsuit, even if you think the force used is reasonable; keep that in mind. You would not be the first one who caught and subdued a fleeing burglary suspect. Consider, however, if it is worth the risk to yourself and anyone else who might be injured in the process. Is the potential loss of goods worth permanent injury to you or someone else?

Personally, I'd be thinking more about getting a suspect and vehicle description, license plate and direction of flight and getting on the horn to 911. I'm not paid to do that stuff any more and goods can be replaced.

masameet
08-07-2012, 2:05 PM
Well, looks like the off-duty West Covina detective did not wound the BG. Because no mention is made, before or after his arrest, that the BG needed medical attention. Click for San Berdo Sun story link (http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_21253720/west-covina-police-officer-dragged-by-car-rancho).

JackRydden224
08-07-2012, 2:12 PM
Unless you're an LEO, your right to use deadly force ends when there is no longer an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm or injury to yourself or another. Getting in the way of a fleeing burglary suspect is probably not the best thing you could do. If circumstances placed you in front of the suspect's vehicle with no other option, you could certainly articulate the basis of a belief that you were in imminent danger of death, great bodily harm or injury and would have a defense (note the phrasing, it's important) if you used deadly force.

Could you subdue the suspect on your property by means of force other than deadly force? Certainly, as long as the level of force was reasonable in light of the resistance encountered. Don't run down the street chasing the suspect and beating him with a baseball bat as happened in my home town a few years ago... that will get you talked about and maybe charged (although that homeowner was not charged). You run the attendant risk of lawsuit, even if you think the force used is reasonable; keep that in mind. You would not be the first one who caught and subdued a fleeing burglary suspect. Consider, however, if it is worth the risk to yourself and anyone else who might be injured in the process. Is the potential loss of goods worth permanent injury to you or someone else?

Personally, I'd be thinking more about getting a suspect and vehicle description, license plate and direction of flight and getting on the horn to 911. I'm not paid to do that stuff any more and goods can be replaced.

I would think it has something to do with exactly what the suspect stole from the victim's property. If the guy/girl is came out of the house with a stolen gun then I think it's reasonable to use deadly force under the assumption that the stolen gun would be used to cause death or injury to a third party. However if the perp came out with a teddy bear then lethal force probably cannot be justified.

Ron-Solo
08-07-2012, 9:44 PM
Based on the info in the news article, this would be an out of policy shoot on my old department. Then again, who knows how accurate the news article really is.

To be able to shoot at a fleeing peron, any person must be able to articulate that the person presented an immediate and credible threat that needed to be stopped. Imagine an active shooter that has just exchanged gunfire with someone, then bolts and runs toward a schoolyard full of children. This person has already fired at someone who tried to stop him, and as the ability to cause immediate harm to others unless you stop him. He's an open target.

A burglar trying to flee after getting caught in a home, not do much.

Turbinator
08-08-2012, 8:11 AM
Imagine an active shooter that has just exchanged gunfire with someone, then bolts and runs toward a schoolyard full of children.

Except, I'd question whether or not it would be wise to fire upon the fleeing suspect if a schoolyard full of children is part of the urban backstop.. I think such a shoot would be a "no go" regardless of who the good guy is. What would the best thing be for a situation such as this?

Turby

glockman19
08-08-2012, 8:50 AM
IBRS In before Ron Solo. I don't think that was a smart thing for the officer to do. Too Hard to shoot accurately and someone could have caught a stray.

....:)

Hmmm...shot at while fleeing? IMHO a fleeing person is NOT a threat.

Sounds like an inappropriate use and discharge of a firearm.

Except, I'd question whether or not it would be wise to fire upon the fleeing suspect if a schoolyard full of children is part of the urban backstop.. I think such a shoot would be a "no go" regardless of who the good guy is. What would the best thing be for a situation such as this?
Turby

Be a good witness...Call the police and give a description and direction if alleged fellon.

5thgen4runner
08-08-2012, 8:53 AM
I would think it has something to do with exactly what the suspect stole from the victim's property. If the guy/girl is came out of the house with a stolen gun then I think it's reasonable to use deadly force under the assumption that the stolen gun would be used to cause death or injury to a third party. However if the perp came out with a teddy bear then lethal force probably cannot be justified.

If I steal a car I can use it to plow through a preschool .....what does the gun have to do with it

Grumpyoldretiredcop
08-08-2012, 12:06 PM
I would think it has something to do with exactly what the suspect stole from the victim's property. If the guy/girl is came out of the house with a stolen gun then I think it's reasonable to use deadly force under the assumption that the stolen gun would be used to cause death or injury to a third party. However if the perp came out with a teddy bear then lethal force probably cannot be justified.

Not the case. The question that must be answered is whether the suspect is a proximate threat of death or great bodily harm at that time (non-LEO decision path) or to a person at the scene or the community (LEO decision path).

Your supposition regarding a suspect exiting the house with a weapon is a valid additional decision factor in the use of deadly force; possession and display of a stolen teddy bear is not. That's how the decision path works; to say "then lethal force probably cannot be justified" is a generalization that only works if that is the only fact being considered. The factors cannot be considered separately, or in a vacuum. They must be considered as a whole, related to the totality of circumstances existing at the time (someone has already mentioned the issue of safe backstop, for example) and generally without any great deal of time for that consideration.

Sunday
08-08-2012, 4:56 PM
Sometimes you have to come down real hard on cops . Sometimes you have to support them. There are some great cops around. Too bad the bad ones mess it up.