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Thordo
08-05-2012, 6:30 PM
My staff and I are amassing pages from firearms safety manuals that emphasize removing the magazine from the action as part of the steps to make a malfunctioning firearm safe. These pages will be included with our letter to the all of the appropriations committee members.

I'm asking all Calgunners to help!! Check your firearms safety manuals. Make a copy or scan the page on making the firearm safe, and either fax or email it to us.

We're also contacting our dealers that have certified armorers or gunsmiths on staff and asking if they will write a testimonial to the dangers of not being able to clear a malfunction without removing the mag.

We've also discovered that there are standards for certified range masters that include procedures for making a firearm safe. The next time you go to your local range, ask the ranger master if their facility has written procedures for making a firearm safe and see if you can get a copy.

\The scope is expanding. We're also looking for any federal level, parks department, even FBI procedures for clearing a malfunctioning firearm. Also, if anyone is, or knows anyone who is, an officer for the parks department both federal and state, we're looking for contradictions between the policies of each organization. We know from some of our friends in the Redding area that the federal parks dept. definition of a "loaded firearm" is totally different from state and local and centers around whether the magazine is removed or not. We are seeking documentation that can illustrate this contradiction.

The objective with this is to illustrate that if a firearm has a magazine that is permanently fixed in compliance with state law, may put the owner in violation of Federal law if the firearm is transported through federal land. Anyone who has been arrested or detained for this that could possibly have documentation, please forward it to me. Even if it's just a warning citation.

Fax: 650-588-3707
Email: thordsencustoms@gmail.com

We'll be mailing the packages by the end of next week. I'd like to send as many as possible even if the envelopes are 1" thick!!

Thordo

eville
08-05-2012, 6:57 PM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2007/09/27/m16-m4-ar-15-manuals/
I'll strip these out later tonight.

Thordo
08-05-2012, 8:00 PM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2007/09/27/m16-m4-ar-15-manuals/
I'll strip these out later tonight.

AWESOME!!

Thordo

wjc
08-05-2012, 8:04 PM
I sent my M1A manual

G60
08-05-2012, 8:09 PM
Yup, the US Army manual from that link has Remedial Action steps, which include removing the magazine on page 114.

Thordo
08-05-2012, 8:13 PM
Yup, the US Army manual from that link has Remedial Action steps, which include removing the magazine on page 114.

Please send it to us.

Thordo

Thordo
08-05-2012, 8:17 PM
My wife is on youtube and google looking for "reputable" references and training schools that have posted videos or instructions on how to clear a malfunction. We'll be contacting them to ask for written testimonials. If you find one, link us to it!!!

Thordo

titleist16
08-05-2012, 8:27 PM
I have my S&W safety manual for my 9mm pistol I can send you if that helps?

Thordo
08-05-2012, 8:34 PM
I have my S&W safety manual for my 9mm pistol I can send you if that helps?

Just the references to making the firearm safe please.

Thanks!!

Thordo

titleist16
08-05-2012, 8:35 PM
You can also find several safety manuals in pdf format from Colt, Bushmaster, etc. Just do a google search for them. I really like what your trying to do, I think the safety ramifications this bill could have are tremendous and definitely need to be addressed!

jj805
08-05-2012, 8:38 PM
My staff and I are amassing pages from firearms safety manuals that emphasize removing the magazine from the action as part of the steps to make a malfunctioning firearm safe. These pages will be included with our letter to the all of the appropriations committee members.

I'm asking all Calgunners to help!! Check your firearms safety manuals. Make a copy or scan the page on making the firearm safe, and either fax or email it to us.

We're also contacting our dealers that have certified armorers or gunsmiths on staff and asking if they will write a testimonial to the dangers of not being able to clear a malfunction without removing the mag.

We've also discovered that there are standards for certified range masters that include procedures for making a firearm safe. The next time you go to your local range, ask the ranger master if their facility has written procedures for making a firearm safe and see if you can get a copy.

Fax: 650-588-3707
Email: thordsencustoms@gmail.com

We'll be mailing the packages by the end of next week. I'd like to send as many as possible even if the envelopes are 1" thick!!

Thordo

Do you want only rifle manuals, or pistol manuals too? Also would links from manufacture sites to their PDF manuals work? I will spend some time each night, and post them here if that works. Like this http://sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsContent/documents/SIG556%20OM%207.10.1%20WEB.pdf

EDIT: I could also give you a link like this http://sigsauer.com/CustomerService/OwnerManual.aspx if the website is set up that way.

Thordo
08-05-2012, 8:53 PM
Do you want only rifle manuals, or pistol manuals too? Also would links from manufacture sites to their PDF manuals work? I will spend some time each night, and post them here if that works. Like this http://sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsContent/documents/SIG556%20OM%207.10.1%20WEB.pdf

ANY reference to making ANY magazine fed firearm safe. ANY file format will do. If faxing, only fax the specific pages not the whole manual. My fax machine can only hold so much paper :D

We're searching manufacturer websites, military, police manuals, magazine articles, anything!!

Thordo

titleist16
08-05-2012, 8:56 PM
PM me your fax number and I will fax you the page for "clearing misfires" for my S&W
9mm pistol

Thordo
08-05-2012, 9:01 PM
PM me your fax number and I will fax you the page for "clearing misfires" for my S&W
9mm pistol

See top of the thread.

Thordo

jj805
08-05-2012, 9:16 PM
Bushmaster http://www.bushmaster.com/manuals.asp
Sig Sauer http://sigsauer.com/CustomerService/OwnerManual.aspx
Smith and Wesson http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757821_-1_757814_757812_image
Some stuff from Glock http://us.glock.com/customer-service/downloadable-materials

Santa Cruz Arms
08-05-2012, 10:41 PM
Thordo,

I think you would be hard pressed to find a firearms manual for ANY magazine fed firearm that DOES NOT mention removing the magazine. Start hitting manufacturers websites. They almost all have the manuals for every firearm they make online. You will find references to removing the magazine in the malfunctions sections and normally the unloading/safety sections.

As an NRA certified instructor and CA DOJ HSC certified instructor I can attest that removing the magazine is one of the first things taught with any semi-automatic magazine fed firearm.

My wife is on youtube and google looking for "reputable" references and training schools

Is the CA DOJ Firearms Division "reputable" enough? ;) :)

Here is the link to the CA handgun Safety Certificate study guide online as a PDF:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscsg.pdf?

Page 22:

To Check or Unload a Semiautomatic Pistol

Procedures differ for various semiautomatic pistols. Always refer to the owner’s manual for information specific to your firearm. Remember to keep the gun pointed in the safest possible direction and keep your finger off the trigger.

Generally, the steps to unload a semiautomatic pistol are:

1. Push the magazine release.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Pull the slide to the rear and lock it back, if possible. Pulling the slide back should eject any cartridge in the chamber. The action is now open.
4. Visually check the chamber to ensure it is empty.

At the bottom of that same page you will see a box outline in red with "CAUTION" written on the left. In the box it says:

You should NOT assume a semiautomatic pistol is unloaded just because the magazine is removed from the handgun.

Do not allow the slide to go forward UNLESS you have:

1. Checked again to be sure the chamber is empty, and
2. Checked again to be sure the magazine has been REMOVED.

If you pull the slide back ejecting the cartridge, check the chamber, let the slide go forward, and THEN remove the magazine, you have a loaded, dangerous firearm (a cartridge is in the chamber) even though you have removed the magazine. It is common and sometimes fatal to make this error.

ALWAYS REMOVE THE MAGAZINE FIRST!

The bold in all the quotes above is by me.. The ALL CAPS is exactly how the Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms wrote it... Apparently they thought it was pretty important..

If I can help in any other way, do not hesitate to contact me.

Best,
Steve

Mendo223
08-06-2012, 12:47 AM
THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORT THORDO!!! wish i could contribute more...

Thordo
08-06-2012, 5:46 AM
Thordo,

I think you would be hard pressed to find a firearms manual for ANY magazine fed firearm that DOES NOT mention removing the magazine. Start hitting manufacturers websites. They almost all have the manuals for every firearm they make online. You will find references to removing the magazine in the malfunctions sections and normally the unloading/safety sections.

As an NRA certified instructor and CA DOJ HSC certified instructor I can attest that removing the magazine is one of the first things taught with any semi-automatic magazine fed firearm.



Is the CA DOJ Firearms Division "reputable" enough? ;) :)

Here is the link to the CA handgun Safety Certificate study guide online as a PDF:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscsg.pdf?

Page 22:



At the bottom of that same page you will see a box outline in red with "CAUTION" written on the left. In the box it says:



The bold in all the quotes above is by me.. The ALL CAPS is exactly how the Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms wrote it... Apparently they thought it was pretty important..

If I can help in any other way, do not hesitate to contact me.

Best,
Steve

Hi Steve,
Cathy found this on the DOJ website last night too. YES, there is one more thing you can do. Write a testimonial about how you've been trained and certified through DOJ and NRA as it relates to making a firearm safe. Be sure to add your credentials to the letterhead.

Thanks!!

Alan

slick44
08-06-2012, 6:39 AM
I emailed a .pdf of the Armalite AR15 Safety Manual to you - pages 20 & 50 both speak clearly and in bold print of removing the magazine for safety reasons when clearing the rifle for multiple reasons including jams and malfunctions.

I'm also a CA DOJ HSC instructor, I'll put a letter together and email that sometime today.

Thank you "running with the ball" I'll keep a close eye out for anything else I can do.

RuskieShooter
08-06-2012, 8:01 AM
Here is a link for the SKS manual (.pdf). Keep in mind the SKS is a fixed magazine rifle by design and even it has a way to open the magazine to safely clear it.

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/sks_56.pdf

Pg 4: To unload or clear the SKS, apply the safety, then pull
back the magazine catch (fig. 3) and allow the magazine to swing
open. Remove all cartridges and close the magazine.

Pg 16: Immediate Action to Reduce Stoppage.
a. When rifle fails to fire, pull the operating handle back to eject bad round, watch for ejection, release handle to chamber new round.
b. Aim and attempt to fire.
c. If immediate action fails to reduce stoppage, unload, clear, disassemble, and inspect.
Repair or replace defect and reassemble.
5. UNLOAD AND CLEAR WEAPON:
a. Place weapon on "SAFE".
b. Pull back magazine catch and allow magazine to swing open.
c. Remove all cartridges.
d. Close the magazine.
e. Pull operating handle to the rear to eject any remaining rounds.
f. Release the handle (bolt will remain open).
g. Inspect to insure no cartridges remain in the magazine, chamber, or receiver.
h. Close bolt.

-Ruskie

five.five-six
08-06-2012, 8:29 AM
see page 94 (pdf 134)
USMC publication TM 05538C 10/1A (http://noveskerifleworks.com/impdf/ar15manual.pdf)

Californio
08-06-2012, 8:33 AM
Check out the CA HSC Test Pages 21 and 22

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf

"You should NOT assume a semiautomatic pistol is unloaded just because the magazine is removed from the handgun.
Do not allow the slide to go forward UNLESS you have:
1.
Checked again to be sure the chamber is empty, and
2.
Checked again to be sure the magazine has been REMOVED.
If you pull the slide back ejecting the cartridge, check the chamber, let the slide go forward, and THEN remove the magazine, you have a loaded, dangerous firearm (a cartridge is in the chamber) even though you have removed the magazine. It is common and sometimes fatal to make this error.


ALWAYS REMOVE THE MAGAZINE FIRST!"
22

Wiz-of-Awd
08-06-2012, 8:40 AM
Yes.

I still think fighting this based on safety and proper - as prescribed by the firearms industry/manufacturers and the State of California - firearms handling is a viable means.

Edit: To add, any means available to weaken the position of this bill is a good one. We can pick away at the "logic" to ban firearms, just as well as the "antis" can pick apart ours in defense of our rights.

A.W.D.

Check out the CA HSC Test Pages 21 and 22

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf

"You should NOT assume a semiautomatic pistol is unloaded just because the magazine is removed from the handgun.
Do not allow the slide to go forward UNLESS you have:
1.
Checked again to be sure the chamber is empty, and
2.
Checked again to be sure the magazine has been REMOVED.
If you pull the slide back ejecting the cartridge, check the chamber, let the slide go forward, and THEN remove the magazine, you have a loaded, dangerous firearm (a cartridge is in the chamber) even though you have removed the magazine. It is common and sometimes fatal to make this error.


ALWAYS REMOVE THE MAGAZINE FIRST!"
22

Thordo
08-06-2012, 8:54 AM
WOW!! The responses are pouring in!!

Check the top of the thread again. We're expanding the scope of our research.

Thordo

IPSICK
08-06-2012, 9:10 AM
The quote from the CA DOJ published HSCSG has got to be the most damning. SB 249 will only contribute to more inconsistencies in DOJ guidelines.

It will be interesting if we can tie this with handguns, as handguns were explicitly noted as a common arm in Heller. It would be hard to advocate and stress dissimilar safety procedures for semi-automatic magazine fed firearms just because one is a rifle and the other is a pistol.

ptoguy2002
08-06-2012, 9:14 AM
I have a closed mag well FAB-10 type receiver I'd be willing to destroy if somebody wanted to make a video of a [done safely] intentional OOB on one of these.

P08
08-06-2012, 9:27 AM
Dont forget that the states own tests to possess a handgun, written and demonstration, dictate removal of mags to clear semi auto firearms!

javalos
08-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Way to go Thordo! You have my support.

strongpoint
08-06-2012, 10:14 AM
just sent you a PDF of page 3 of the HK USP manual, which specifies:

Clearing the Pistol - The HK pistol is not considered “clear” or safe unless:
1. The magazine is removed from the pisto. [sic]
2. The slide is locked to the rear.
3. The chamber is free of brass or ammunition.

To Clear the HK Pistol:
1. Make sure fingers are outside of the trigger guard and the pistol is pointed in a
safe direction at all times!
2. Remove magazine - Depress the magazine release lever and remove the magazine
from the pistol.
...

well done, thordo. this is a VERY good idea.

Thordo
08-06-2012, 10:15 AM
I have a closed mag well FAB-10 type receiver I'd be willing to destroy if somebody wanted to make a video of a [done safely] intentional OOB on one of these.

NO absolutely not!! I don't anyone to risk getting hurt to prove that you can get hurt!!

Thordo

Thordo
08-06-2012, 10:18 AM
just sent you a PDF of page 3 of the HK USP manual, which specifies:



well done, thordo. this is a VERY good idea.

Got it!!

How are you liking your UBML?

Thordo

jben
08-06-2012, 10:21 AM
Thordo,

Have you checked out Steve's Pages? MANY manuals, alphabetical in .pdf format.

http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm

supermanuf
08-06-2012, 10:25 AM
This is fantastic. Thanks for doing this.

ocmsrzr
08-06-2012, 10:26 AM
Rock on, Thordo.

Thordo
08-06-2012, 10:42 AM
WOW!!
The Armalite manual has "specific instructions" for clearing the action of a bullet button rifle. It doesn't say "bullet button" specifically but it's pretty obvious what they mean.

Thordo

Thordo
08-06-2012, 10:50 AM
Thordo,

Have you checked out Steve's Pages? MANY manuals, alphabetical in .pdf format.

http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm

Hadn't seen that one yet. We're already overwhelmed with replies. Can you and maybe a couple of other calgunners pour through them and extract the info please? Or at least find the page reference so we can go straight to it.

We're getting input from all over the state. LOVE IT!!

Thordo

AeroEngi
08-06-2012, 11:01 AM
Hadn't seen that one yet. We're already overwhelmed with replies. Can you and maybe a couple of other calgunners pour through them and extract the info please? Or at least find the page reference so we can go straight to it.

We're getting input from all over the state. LOVE IT!!

Thordo

For the Armalite M-15 rifle, on page 23 under "clearing/unloading the firearm", the 2nd step is to remove the magazine to by "depressing the magazine catch button".

stagar15dj
08-06-2012, 11:52 AM
New member. Sent pages of Stag AR 15, mod.1 owners manual dealing clearing malfunctions.

IPSICK
08-06-2012, 12:06 PM
I have a closed mag well FAB-10 type receiver I'd be willing to destroy if somebody wanted to make a video of a [done safely] intentional OOB on one of these.

Is it possible to show, at least by video, the danger of malfunctions and the inability to release the magazine using dummy rounds and a permanently fixed mag receiver.

Maybe someone can contact Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics so he can relay the dangers. He has an entire DVD dedicated to rifle (AR-type) malfunctions.

Here's a sample:

-TqLnBd1udM

My wife is on youtube and google looking for "reputable" references and training schools that have posted videos or instructions on how to clear a malfunction. We'll be contacting them to ask for written testimonials. If you find one, link us to it!!!

Thordo

Thordo
08-06-2012, 12:08 PM
We've got well over 50 references in manuals so far. Great job everyone. We really need to hear from Certified safety instructors though.

Thordo

miztic
08-06-2012, 12:46 PM
My wife is on youtube and google looking for "reputable" references and training schools that have posted videos or instructions on how to clear a malfunction. We'll be contacting them to ask for written testimonials. If you find one, link us to it!!!

Thordo

I can scan the training material I received when taking a class with Spartan Tactical training group, the instructor's credentials took up 3 pages of that manual. But it's from IL.

This was the class I took:
http://www.teamspartan.com/teamspartan_firearms_training_INTRODUCTION_TO_THE_ SEMI-AUTOMATIC_PISTOL.htm

Thordo
08-06-2012, 2:39 PM
I can scan the training material I received when taking a class with Spartan Tactical training group, the instructor's credentials took up 3 pages of that manual. But it's from IL.

This was the class I took:
http://www.teamspartan.com/teamspartan_firearms_training_INTRODUCTION_TO_THE_ SEMI-AUTOMATIC_PISTOL.htm

We'll take it!!

Thordo

Californio
08-06-2012, 2:40 PM
All cartridge feeding devices on firearms, whether they be clip, internal or external box magazine or tubular, require being EMPTIED or DROPPED before opening and clearing the ACTION of the firearm.

Winchester 1903 feeds from a tube in the buttstock, must be cleared before clearing the Action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1903

Remington 512 feeds from a tube under the barrel, must be cleared before opening the Bolt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Sportmaster_512

Remington 700 BDL, most models, feed from an internal box magazine with a floor plate, must be cleared before opening the Bolt. Models with external magazines must be Dropped before opening the Bolt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_700



This is all basic Firearms Safety.


I need do a refresh on the Hunter Safety Manual to see what the CA Fish and Game currently has to say on the issue.

Thordo
08-07-2012, 5:22 AM
Thanks everybody!! We've got tons of info to work with. Now comes the task of compiling, copying, and mailing.

Thordo

hoffmang
08-07-2012, 9:36 AM
Excellent idea and thanks for backing all of us up on "permanent 10 round magazines are dangerous."

-Gene

mattmattmatt
08-07-2012, 1:16 PM
Starting around page 25 of the Marine marksmanship manual talks about rifle handling and clearing it/making it safe

Thordo
08-08-2012, 9:25 AM
Excellent idea and thanks for backing all of us up on "permanent 10 round magazines are dangerous."

-Gene

I'll email you later.

Thordo

Thordo
08-08-2012, 9:33 AM
Thordo,

I think you would be hard pressed to find a firearms manual for ANY magazine fed firearm that DOES NOT mention removing the magazine. Start hitting manufacturers websites. They almost all have the manuals for every firearm they make online. You will find references to removing the magazine in the malfunctions sections and normally the unloading/safety sections.

As an NRA certified instructor and CA DOJ HSC certified instructor I can attest that removing the magazine is one of the first things taught with any semi-automatic magazine fed firearm.



Is the CA DOJ Firearms Division "reputable" enough? ;) :)

Here is the link to the CA handgun Safety Certificate study guide online as a PDF:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscsg.pdf?

Page 22:



At the bottom of that same page you will see a box outline in red with "CAUTION" written on the left. In the box it says:



The bold in all the quotes above is by me.. The ALL CAPS is exactly how the Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms wrote it... Apparently they thought it was pretty important..

If I can help in any other way, do not hesitate to contact me.

Best,
Steve

Hi Steve,
That is a completely awesome letter you wrote. Complete with All the DOJ references and everything. It'll be added straight in the packet.

Thordo

unusedusername
08-08-2012, 10:21 AM
I don't have a copy handy, but I know removing the magazine is part of making a firearm safe in the NRA basic pistol, and basic rifle class powerpoint slides. You can get a copy from the NRA training department.

These slides are often used in LEO trainings as well.... So maybe check the CA POST training powerpoint slide deck as well?

Thordo
08-08-2012, 2:14 PM
I don't have a copy handy, but I know removing the magazine is part of making a firearm safe in the NRA basic pistol, and basic rifle class powerpoint slides. You can get a copy from the NRA training department.

These slides are often used in LEO trainings as well.... So maybe check the CA POST training powerpoint slide deck as well?

Yup. We got that info from one of our safety instructor friends.

Thordo

Thordo
08-08-2012, 8:51 PM
Its Almost 10 PM and were still working on compiling, writing, and fielding phone calls. Looks like an all nighter!!

YAWN!!!

Thordo

cjc16
08-08-2012, 9:10 PM
There are some great malfunction drills on the Pat Rogers "Basic carbine" dvd I received from BCM. Most of which necessitate a removal of the magazine as a basic first step. Maybe you could get in contact with his organization for some video segments.

Manolito
08-08-2012, 9:51 PM
Just wanted to say Thank You for the hard work you are doing.

Respectfully,
Bill

Thordo
08-09-2012, 5:31 AM
There are some great malfunction drills on the Pat Rogers "Basic carbine" dvd I received from BCM. Most of which necessitate a removal of the magazine as a basic first step. Maybe you could get in contact with his organization for some video segments.

Thanks for the lead. We've got more than enough data though. The goal now is to get the packets in the mail by tomorrow morning!!

Thordo

Thordo
08-09-2012, 5:32 AM
Just wanted to say Thank You for the hard work you are doing.

Respectfully,
Bill

Thanks!!

Thordo

Thordo
08-10-2012, 11:56 AM
Research project complete. A four page letter and 20+ page report was sent to all of the committee members and other influencing organizations. I'm not gonna post it until after the meeting.

Thanks to everybody for your input. If we had more time, we could have easily written a thesis on the subject!!

Maybe one our graduate student Calgunners could take this on? We've got probably 300 pages of research materials already compiled!!

Thordo

BP22
08-10-2012, 2:04 PM
Here's from the Ruger SR556 manual.

Thordo
08-10-2012, 2:16 PM
Here's from the Ruger SR556 manual.

Thanks for the input. We've already sent our packets out so please no more submissions.

Thordo

BP22
08-10-2012, 2:18 PM
Oops, guess I should have read the entire thread. :o

DEVOREGUNNER
08-10-2012, 2:22 PM
Research project complete. A four page letter and 20+ page report was sent to all of the committee members and other influencing organizations. I'm not gonna post it until after the meeting.

Thanks to everybody for your input. If we had more time, we could have easily written a thesis on the subject!!

Maybe one our graduate student Calgunners could take this on? We've got probably 300 pages of research materials already compiled!!

Thordo

Will you post up the four page letter and report for us to view. Great job, thank you.

Thordo
08-10-2012, 2:48 PM
Will you post up the four page letter and report for us to view. Great job, thank you.

How do you post pdf?