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View Full Version : Has America matured enough to differentiate good vs bad gun owners? Latest shooting.


NoJoke
08-05-2012, 6:10 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SIKH_TEMPLE_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-05-15-14-22

It pains me to read bad guys with guns grabbing headlines.

There are rarely good guys with guns stories.

Has America matured enough to differentiate the two?

...that the gun is actually the EQUALIZER in life? It is a tool. Any tool can be used properly or improperly. Removing the tool does not change the nature of the beast, namely - good vs evil.

At least the shooter in the latest was stopped. With a gun.

Banaholic California
08-05-2012, 6:12 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SIKH_TEMPLE_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-05-15-14-22

It pains me to read bad guys with guns grabbing headlines.

There are rarely good guys with guns stories.

Has America matured enough to differentiate the two?

...that the gun is actually the EQUALIZER in life? It is a tool. Any tool can be used properly or improperly. Removing the tool does not change the nature of the beast, namely - good vs evil.

At least the shooter in the latest was stopped. With a gun.

ITs scary everyone is being labled a terrorist. What this man did is bad but not terrorism. They wan't everyone labled terrorist so they can seize everyone's rights. Its sickening.,

a1c
08-05-2012, 6:27 PM
ITs scary everyone is being labled a terrorist. What this man did is bad but not terrorism. They wan't everyone labled terrorist so they can seize everyone's rights. Its sickening.,

The FBI labeled him as such because he acted like a terrorist, targeting civilians in the name of some heinous ideology. That's what terrorists do.

While I do agree that the label has been abused - especially in the past decade - in this case the shoe fits.

rritterson
08-05-2012, 6:31 PM
No. For some reason, certain tools/symbols/objects get assigned an intensely disproportionate amount of the blame instead of the small section of the people who use them incorrectly.

As both a shooter and a motorcycle rider, I see a lot of similarity in the way people approach so called 'assault rifles' and 'crotch rockets', namely that they think the tool is the problem and not the asshat using it. We don't try to ban sport bikes, though, because people think that a motorcycle rider will only harm himself, whereas the AR owner will go hurt other people, no matter what the evidence to the contrary.

I think this comes from the idea that if you make it illegal to possess the object, somehow that will change the desire of the person who wants it or the behavior of the person who uses it. This works on some percent of us, who would rather be law abiding, but it fails to consider that (1) those already pondering crimes are probably not worried about adding another one (2) very determined individuals will always find a way around the laws, especially where the law is not equally applied in all states or countries and (3) asshats are asshats, no matter what tool they are currently using.

wash
08-05-2012, 6:31 PM
If there is terrorism, that was it.

Terrorism is indiscriminate violence designed to create fear.

That idiot was so indiscriminate that he couldn't tell the difference between Sikh and Muslim. That level of stupidity is scary.

While it is impossible to find anything positive from a shooting, the Sikhs truly appreciate our RKBA and this might encourage California sheriffs to grant firearm licenses to Sikhs.

Bruceisontarget
08-05-2012, 6:36 PM
Has America matured enough to differentiate good vs bad gun owners?

Not yet. But it does seem to be heading in the right direction. More and more people are rejecting the media spin.

Bad Voodoo
08-05-2012, 6:55 PM
Has America matured enough to differentiate the two?

'America' knows the difference, but as the current admin is fond of saying, especially when there's political hay to be made and a population of liberal fish willing to get hooked, "never let a good crisis go to waste."

littlejake
08-06-2012, 9:32 AM
Why does gun ownership even figure into the equation. There are good and bad people. Those who harm others without cause are in the category of bad.

We have prisons for bad people.

Since the Nation was founded we have had penalties for behavior that harms people either physically or by depriving them of their property. Sometimes justice was meted out summarily. Sometimes via judge and jury; with the penalty being the scaffold.

Let's focus on behavior that harms -- an less on the method.

njineermike
08-06-2012, 9:35 AM
If there is terrorism, that was it.

Terrorism is indiscriminate violence designed to create fear.

That idiot was so indiscriminate that he couldn't tell the difference between Sikh and Muslim. That level of stupidity is scary.

While it is impossible to find anything positive from a shooting, the Sikhs truly appreciate our RKBA and this might encourage California sheriffs to grant firearm licenses to Sikhs.

Most people have no idea the Sikhs were started to STOP the spread of Islam in India. There were several incidents of violence against Sikhs right after 9/11 by equally uninformed idiots.

Wiz-of-Awd
08-06-2012, 9:56 AM
Why does gun ownership even figure into the equation. There are good and bad people. Those who harm others without cause are in the category of bad.

We have prisons for bad people.

Since the Nation was founded we have had penalties for behavior that harms people either physically or by depriving them of their property. Sometimes justice was meted out summarily. Sometimes via judge and jury; with the penalty being the scaffold.

Let's focus on behavior that harms -- an less on the method.

Because, since legislators and lawmakers haven't yet figured out how to control the "bad" in people, they are left with trying to control those things which bad people use to do harm.

A.W.D.

javalos
08-06-2012, 9:59 AM
Interesting question..."has America matured enough to differentiate good vs. bad gun owners?"

Most Americans yes, politicians...NO

NoJoke
08-06-2012, 10:04 AM
Why does gun ownership even figure into the equation. There are good and bad people. Those who harm others without cause are in the category of bad.

We have prisons for bad people.

Since the Nation was founded we have had penalties for behavior that harms people either physically or by depriving them of their property. Sometimes justice was meted out summarily. Sometimes via judge and jury; with the penalty being the scaffold.

Let's focus on behavior that harms -- an less on the method.

I guess I'm trying to draw out the realization that tools are not BAD.

There's no arguments that there are bad people.
There's TONS of arguments that "good people" and "guns" can exist in the same sentence.
This GUN = EVIL thing needs to mature into more discriminate reasoning because the preschool rationale gets tired and old.

hornswaggled
08-06-2012, 10:11 AM
My intuition tells me that the apparent racial motivation of the Sikh attack makes it less of a "gun issue" to most people. Chaos breeds fear, which is why the Batman shooter's random, unpredictable act left people scrambling for a method of prevention and gun control chatter hit the airwaves. Even though it sucks, when a mass murderer has a hateful philosophy, people are somehow more willing to accept it.

Lifeon2whls
08-06-2012, 10:51 AM
Per what some other people have said, I don't think the American people see guns and people as one. The see people in one bundle and guns in the other. They don't realize that these psychos would have gone out and killed regardless of whether they had guns, it was just their chosen method. They simply see the tool being the problem.

My biggest argument for this is find someone who is completely ignorant of guns and would consider them an Anti, then present them with an unloaded firearm and explain it as such. When I have done so when I have "Friends" at my place, you can see them cringe and freeze up. A gun, just sitting on the table, unloaded...scares them. It can't do anything on its own without being used by someone but they have been taught that GUNS ARE EVIL and they see this object as the epitome of what they've been told.

Dreaded Claymore
08-06-2012, 11:05 AM
The FBI labeled him as such because he acted like a terrorist, targeting civilians in the name of some heinous ideology. That's what terrorists do.

While I do agree that the label has been abused - especially in the past decade - in this case the shoe fits.

If there is terrorism, that was it.

Terrorism is indiscriminate violence designed to create fear.

That idiot was so indiscriminate that he couldn't tell the difference between Sikh and Muslim. That level of stupidity is scary.

While it is impossible to find anything positive from a shooting, the Sikhs truly appreciate our RKBA and this might encourage California sheriffs to grant firearm licenses to Sikhs.

This.

The mass murder in Aurora made me really sad. But it didn't make me very angry. The guy in Aurora who killed all those people has a malfunctioning mind. In a sense, it was a terrible natural disaster. I grieved but I didn't get mad.

This man,* on the other hand, appear to have made a conscious decision to murder people that he perceived to be different from him. Subconsciously, I must have thought that this kind of thing only happened in Palestine. This proves me wrong, and I feel both fear and rage.

Horus, Avenger, defend us in battle, as we hunt these terrorists and make them answer for their murders. We will find whoever would do this, and end them.

*Or men. Eyewitness accounts differ right now.

Decoligny
08-06-2012, 11:39 AM
If there is terrorism, that was it.

Terrorism is indiscriminate violence designed to create fear.

That idiot was so indiscriminate that he couldn't tell the difference between Sikh and Muslim. That level of stupidity is scary.

While it is impossible to find anything positive from a shooting, the Sikhs truly appreciate our RKBA and this might encourage California sheriffs to grant firearm licenses to Sikhs.

You assumption that he was targeting Muslims is based on what exactly?

He was a WHITE supremacist. His aim was to kill NON-WHITES.

From the article: "The music often includes lyrics that discuss genocide against Jews and other minorities."

Nowhere in the article did it mention that he was targeting Muslims.

I find it amazing that in a congregation of over 500 Sikhs, whose religion is based around a warrior tradition, that nobody rushed the shooter. Every Sikh carries a kirpan. I would think that ~500 Sikhs with drawn daggers would be more than a match for a lone shooter.

wash
08-06-2012, 11:57 AM
It is an assumption but I feel it's a pretty safe one.

I know a handful of Sikhs and there is nothing about their culture that should anger anyone.

Since it was an indiscriminate act rather than targeted individuals, my guess is that the attack was driven by blind ignorance and hate.

As misguided as attacking innocent American Muslims would be, certain groups of Muslims have attacked the USA and rightly angered all Americans.

I can understand why a hate filled idiot would attack Muslims, it just doesn't make sense with Sikhs.

707electrician
08-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Another dupe?

Decoligny
08-06-2012, 1:02 PM
It is an assumption but I feel it's a pretty safe one.

I know a handful of Sikhs and there is nothing about their culture that should anger anyone.

Since it was an indiscriminate act rather than targeted individuals, my guess is that the attack was driven by blind ignorance and hate.

As misguided as attacking innocent American Muslims would be, certain groups of Muslims have attacked the USA and rightly angered all Americans.

I can understand why a hate filled idiot would attack Muslims, it just doesn't make sense with Sikhs.

POST # 7,000

How about because they aren't white? This guy was a Neo-Nazi white supremist.

It is highly unlikely that this was a political attack.
It is highly unlikely that this was a religious attack.
It is highly unlikely that this was a revenge attack for 9/11.

This was most likely a 100% racially motivated attack. This guy was killing them because they were not WHITE.

This could have just as easily been a large Jewish Synagogue, a large Black Episcopalian Church, a Catholic Church full of Latinos, or even a Mosque.

Based on this guys history of involvement with white supremists it is pretty clear that anyone not lily white would have done in a pinch.

Agent Orange
08-06-2012, 1:36 PM
^ This. Target of opportunity.

wash
08-06-2012, 2:14 PM
There are many other minorities he could have attacked that would have been much easier targets.

Observant Sikhs carry their Kirpan at all times and many of them carry other arms.

You would have to be really stupid, suicidal or have a major hatred of Sikhs to choose them as a target.

I'm guessing really stupid.

Nick Justice
08-06-2012, 4:11 PM
I appreciate the part about the man who defended himself with the butter knife. He didn't just lay down and let evil win. Good for him! :thumbsup:

corrosively_armed
08-06-2012, 9:08 PM
This very thing was depicted in the sit coms of the 1980s. Every series had the 'gun' episode where one of the main characters either injures themselves merely by picking up a gun or nearly kills a member of their own family when they thought they were an intruder. It was propaganda and it was effective and it's effects continue to this day.

Per what some other people have said, I don't think the American people see guns and people as one. The see people in one bundle and guns in the other. They don't realize that these psychos would have gone out and killed regardless of whether they had guns, it was just their chosen method. They simply see the tool being the problem.

My biggest argument for this is find someone who is completely ignorant of guns and would consider them an Anti, then present them with an unloaded firearm and explain it as such. When I have done so when I have "Friends" at my place, you can see them cringe and freeze up. A gun, just sitting on the table, unloaded...scares them. It can't do anything on its own without being used by someone but they have been taught that GUNS ARE EVIL and they see this object as the epitome of what they've been told.