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View Full Version : Milwaukee gun range reports customers to police


vantec08
08-03-2012, 3:32 AM
http://www.ammoland.com/2012/08/02/milwaukee-gun-range-voluntarily-reports-law-abiding-customers-to-local-police/#axzz22S0wUtan


this , , , , is not good

davbog44
08-03-2012, 3:56 AM
1) This is why it's wise to read what you sign before you sign.

2) It makes we wonder just how stupid management at Milwaukee PD must be. That seems like a lot of data. I know computers do most of the work, but someone still has to do input name, address, ssn, etc. If they have the man hours available for this kind of garbage, I certainly hope the city's Police Chief isn't whining about his budget.

3) I would hope that any firearms business engaging in such a tactic would find itself promptly boycotted by local gun owners.

Kinsel83
08-03-2012, 4:12 AM
Thats some BS. What's the point in reporting all those customers? What were they getting out of it?

FalconLair
08-03-2012, 4:36 AM
I'm sure the gun range will defend themselves by saying that they could be in a position of liability if they rented a gun to a convicted felon, so this is their way of weeding out people that are not supposed to be in possession of firearms...in a way, other than the paper you sign stating you are not a person restricted from having, possessing or using a firearm, how else would a gun range know? It could make perfect and good business sense, if it just didnt reek of an underlying hidden agenda.

These are the kind of things that infuriate people and rightly so...i wouldnt be surprised if this range suffers from an immediate drop in business due to this outing

GaryV
08-03-2012, 4:58 AM
I'm sure the gun range will defend themselves by saying that they could be in a position of liability if they rented a gun to a convicted felon, so this is their way of weeding out people that are not supposed to be in possession of firearms...in a way, other than the paper you sign stating you are not a person restricted from having, possessing or using a firearm, how else would a gun range know?

This. I know of gun range in Florida that did the same thing. And, by the way, there was nothing in the liability release that informed you that they were doing this, so you wouldn't know they were doing this with your information even if you carefully read the whole document.

kermit315
08-03-2012, 6:52 AM
I want to know what basis the cops used to run those names through NCIC......they were suspected of no crime. Sounds like misuse of a law enforcement database to me.

If Florida, they fire you for that.

SilverTauron
08-03-2012, 7:54 AM
Remember that the Milwaukee area is a very liberal sector of Wisconsin. As such the city leaders likely made an offer to the range that the management couldn't refuse;something along the lines of "either turn over the names of your range customers to the PD, or prepare to get sued out of business by the city for violating X, Y, and Z building code".

In Illinois a popular tactic by local anti-gun cities is to re-write the building code to force gun dealers and ranges out of business;and if that doesn't work they call the state EPA and hit em with a crippling fine.

vantec08
08-03-2012, 8:08 AM
Remember that the Milwaukee area is a very liberal sector of Wisconsin. As such the city leaders likely made an offer to the range that the management couldn't refuse;something along the lines of "either turn over the names of your range customers to the PD, or prepare to get sued out of business by the city for violating X, Y, and Z building code".

In Illinois a popular tactic by local anti-gun cities is to re-write the building code to force gun dealers and ranges out of business;and if that doesn't work they call the state EPA and hit em with a crippling fine.

That was my first thought also. Range owners/masters I know would NEVER volunteer for that b____t without being coerced into it. Condition of doing business, sounds like.

Decoligny
08-03-2012, 8:28 AM
I'm sure the gun range will defend themselves by saying that they could be in a position of liability if they rented a gun to a convicted felon, so this is their way of weeding out people that are not supposed to be in possession of firearms...in a way, other than the paper you sign stating you are not a person restricted from having, possessing or using a firearm, how else would a gun range know? It could make perfect and good business sense, if it just didnt reek of an underlying hidden agenda.

These are the kind of things that infuriate people and rightly so...i wouldnt be surprised if this range suffers from an immediate drop in business due to this outing

That is an absolute BS argument. They are sending the names in after the individual has filled out the form and started using the range. The police can't be doing instant background checks on these people. They are probably sending in the names at the end of each business day. How is that going to stop anyone from renting a gun if they are a prohibited person?

They are also sending in the names of all of the users of the range, even those who bring in their own firearms.

cdtx2001
08-03-2012, 8:51 AM
That would be the last time I ever used that range.

Hopefully something comes of this and the police have to explain why they felt it necessary to run background checks on the law abiding when they have committed no crime.

What surprises me is that something like this hasn't happened here in CA, at least not that we are aware of.

Another reason why I don't care to go to a range.

CHIEFone
08-03-2012, 8:57 AM
WOW some crazy ish goin on in our country with relations to firearms and owners!
is it really all that surprising though?

this some RED DAWN type ish. round up those that can fight back before marshal law rolls down your neighborhood street!

GaryV
08-03-2012, 8:59 AM
That is an absolute BS argument. They are sending the names in after the individual has filled out the form and started using the range. The police can't be doing instant background checks on these people. They are probably sending in the names at the end of each business day. How is that going to stop anyone from renting a gun if they are a prohibited person?

They are also sending in the names of all of the users of the range, even those who bring in their own firearms.

It isn't stopping them before they rent. But the range in Florida I knew was doing this bragged about the police having arrested a number of felons after the fact for possession based on their information.

Untamed1972
08-03-2012, 9:00 AM
I'm sure the gun range will defend themselves by saying that they could be in a position of liability if they rented a gun to a convicted felon, so this is their way of weeding out people that are not supposed to be in possession of firearms...in a way, other than the paper you sign stating you are not a person restricted from having, possessing or using a firearm, how else would a gun range know? It could make perfect and good business sense, if it just didnt reek of an underlying hidden agenda.

These are the kind of things that infuriate people and rightly so...i wouldnt be surprised if this range suffers from an immediate drop in business due to this outing

The only flaw in that arguement is that the background check would be done well after the rental took place. So at best all it would do is prevent them from renting to the person in the future.....and even that assumes that the PD would actually report back to them anything found regarding prohibited persons which the article doesn't seem to indicate one way or the other if that was happening.

It will be interesting to see whether any prohibited persons every showed up amongst the names checked as well.

But having the PD secretly run background checks on people who are engaged in legal activity is at the essence of a "police state", and I hope the shop and the PD get their pants sued off. It definitely seems like some sort of 4A violation or something.....essentially being investigated in the total absence of any RS/PC....for doing nothing else but exercising their rights and engaging in a legal activity.

vantec08
08-03-2012, 9:03 AM
But having the PD secretly run background checks on people who are engaged in legal activity is at the essence of a "police state"

can I get an A-men?

bsim
08-03-2012, 9:17 AM
Original article HERE (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/west-allis-gun-shop-resumes-selling-weapons-under-membership-model-k9696q4-164054036.html).

A West Milwaukee gun store, located in the same spot as the closely scrutinized Badger Guns, has resumed selling firearms under a membership business model the owner says is designed to scare off criminals and their associates who frequented the site in past years.

Badger Guns and its predecessor, Badger Outdoors, were top sellers of crime guns recovered by Milwaukee police for more than a decade. Over two years, six Milwaukee police officers were wounded with guns sold by Badger Guns or Badger Outdoors.

Barrett met with West Milwaukee Police Chief Dennis Nasci this week and praised the chief's efforts to work with Brew City employees to check out people using the range. Nasci's department started running background checks on everyone using the Badger Guns range in 2009, an arrangement that Adam Allan agreed to, though no law required him to do so.

Nasci said since late 2009, he has run more than 25,000 names of range users through his system. So far this year, he's ran more than 8,800 and come up with 47 people who required further investigation. A few of those were referred to prosecutors for illegal possession, Nasci said.

Untamed1972
08-03-2012, 9:32 AM
"Badger Guns and its predecessor, Badger Outdoors, were top sellers of crime guns recovered by Milwaukee police for more than a decade. Over two years, six Milwaukee police officers were wounded with guns sold by Badger Guns or Badger Outdoors."

Also said the owner agreed to this as a request from the PD. No doubt the Chief prolly made it a requirement of approving his FFL and range operation license. That doesn't make it legal though.

My question would be......was there something shady going on with the previous sales of "crime guns"? If all the rules were being followed and the shop wasn't knowingly facilitiating straw purchases or at least refusing sales they thought seemed suspicious then why does everyone now have to be suspect?

SilverTauron
08-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Also said the owner agreed to this as a request from the PD. No doubt the Chief prolly made it a requirement of approving his FFL and ranger operation license. That doesn't make it legal though.

My question would......was there something shady going on with the previous sales of "crime guns"? If all the rules were being followed and the shop wasn't knowingly facilitiating straw purchases or at least refusing sales they thought seemed suspicious then why does everyone now have to be suspect?

Because that's the conditions for staying in business.An FFL has no way of knowing the criminal record of its patrons.As such,if a straw purchase ring gets traced back to a dealer his first sign of trouble will be the Five-O demanding an audience.Considering weapons used against LE were traced to the shop,the WM police had enough pull to get the place closed down and possibly refer the case to the ATF for investigation.To me,its the perfect blackmail situation.The FFL gets to keep his family fed and his butt out of jail in exchange for selling out his customers.

compulsivegunbuyer
08-03-2012, 11:17 AM
I imagine their going out of business soon. I know I would never go there again, and may even stand out front with a sign saying that when you shoot here, your information goes straight to the police.

rrr70
08-03-2012, 11:38 AM
I remember trying to buy some $9 shooting glasses at Targetmasters and they wanted me to fill up some kinda form with address, SSN, phone and email. I ask them to F off and never was back.

vantec08
08-03-2012, 11:39 AM
I remember trying to buy some $9 shooting glasses and they wanted me to fill up some kinda form with address, SSN, phone and email. I ask them to F off and never was back.

Bad sunglasses, bad - - - hurt sunglasses. . .mmmmmmmmm

rrr70
08-03-2012, 11:54 AM
Bad sunglasses, bad - - - hurt sunglasses. . .mmmmmmmmm

Got distracted and forgot to mention that it happen in Targetmasters.:D

vantec08
08-03-2012, 12:00 PM
good gawdamighty . . .. . .

Dreaded Claymore
08-03-2012, 5:57 PM
Bizarre. I wonder if the cops were trying to catch anyone specific, or believed that people who committed certain crimes might also frequent the range. The only other reason I can think of to do this is that the cops basically got bored, and in an idle moment, figured "more information = catch more criminals = more arrests," but didn't stop to realize that not all information will automatically lead you to bad guys.

Anyway, silly cops.

BigDogatPlay
08-03-2012, 6:19 PM
Pretty hard overreach on the part of the West Milwaukee PD on face. Not sure about Wisconsin law / regulation but under California law / regulation if the PD was running full criminal history solely on the basis of participating in an otherwise lawful activity and with no reasonable suspicion of a crime, CLETS and CADoJ would likely have problems with that on an audit.

Given that gun rights and shall issue are a pretty new thing to Wisconsin, and factoring in a hunch that the chief and his political bosses might lean toward hoplophobia, I'm going to guess the motivations are, in order:

a) Identify prohibited persons using the range so that they can be fussed with later.

b) Identify wanted persons using the range so that they can be fussed with later.

c) Develop a database of local gun owners range use and cross reference that to the LTC database, so that they can be fussed with later.

Two reasonably good things, one really, really bad one.

bsim
08-03-2012, 7:13 PM
By the way, isn't this exactly what the ammo bill was supposed to do?

Keep logs (for PD review) so they could look up people not eligible to own guns, then use the list as RS to go search their house?

Wicked Pete
08-04-2012, 2:19 PM
It's an "us" versus "them". This can be a problem when we (average Joe Blow) feel alienated by those we support; as in a gun range, we expect they are friends. Forget it, they're ratting you out!

CBruce
08-04-2012, 2:26 PM
No different than 'stop and frisk', voter ID, or requiring people to carry papers proving they're citizens and not illegal immigrants. Every one of them treats a law-abiding person as a potential criminal until they're cleared (ie. proven innocent).

wash
08-04-2012, 3:51 PM
If I remember correctly, Badger was one of few FFLs operating in the area and the only one selling inexpensive guns. I think a lot of their customers were not the right color and the police were profiling their customers as they left the parking lot.

It's impossible to expect that you would never find an FFL that had sold a gun which was later used in a crime.

If Badger was selling firearms illegally, that is bad but I did not hear that. They just had good prices and the crooks comparison shop.

sfbadger
08-04-2012, 4:45 PM
No different than 'stop and frisk', voter ID, or requiring people to carry papers proving their citizens and not illegal immigrants. Every one of them treats a law-abiding person as a potential criminal until their cleared (ie. proven innocent).

Except in this country we are presumed innocent until proven guilty!

RMP91
08-04-2012, 4:58 PM
Except in this country we are presumed guilty until (never) proven innocent

Fixed it for you. God help you if you get wrongfully accused of sexual abuse on a child or child pornography, even if you're truly innocent you'll be forever hated and reviled... This also applies to bogus Domestic Violence claims from women you've never even met!

It's sad, but it's true. Any human with a working brain (but no heart) knows that the only way to survive is to play dirty. They WILL throw you to the wolves or under the bus to save their own worthless hides... This applies to gun owners too, selling out their own countrymen just to keep *their* guns and deny rights to everyone else but themselves... :mad:

This is also the one and only reason I do all my shooting in the woods, alone. I never go to a range in the cities... I don't want to have to worry about getting barrel-sweeped by a new shooter, getting harassed by LEOs if they think my .22 pistol is illegal (which it is not) or worse, somebody going postal and shooting others in the back of the head while they are unaware because they have ear protection on (i.e. can't hear the murderer coming).

There are no allies or friends, only enemies. Trust NO. ONE. Not even the kids!

wash
08-04-2012, 6:08 PM
http://m.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/63009137.html

And that's the beginning (or middle) of the story.

Milwaukee PD doesn't want black people to have guns so they strong arm the FFL serving that market, racially profile and eventually shut them down.

Black people have civil rights. Milwaukee PD seems to have a history of violating civil rights.

Abacab
08-04-2012, 8:19 PM
The county police have done this for a long time in Maryland. They used to ask for the forms, now they subpoena them.

I_Love_My_.38
08-04-2012, 8:45 PM
But having the PD secretly run background checks on people who are engaged in legal activity is at the essence of a "police state"

can I get an A-men?

AMEN

CBruce
08-05-2012, 4:54 AM
Except in this country we are presumed innocent until proven guilty!

That's my point.

vantec08
08-05-2012, 5:08 AM
The county police have done this for a long time in Maryland. They used to ask for the forms, now they subpoena them.


. . . . so the court grants the power of subpoena. It would be interesting to know the police' RC/PC for the issuance.

CavTrooper
08-05-2012, 5:16 AM
That would be the last time I ever used that range.

Hopefully something comes of this and the police have to explain why they felt it necessary to run background checks on the law abiding when they have committed no crime.

What surprises me is that something like this hasn't happened here in CA, at least not that we are aware of.

Another reason why I don't care to go to a range.

Im pretty sure every range in California does this. They may not tell you, they may deny it, but Im willing to bet anything its a condition of being in buisness in some areas.

1000stars
08-05-2012, 5:30 AM
I'm sure the gun range will defend themselves by saying that they could be in a position of liability if they rented a gun to a convicted felon, so this is their way of weeding out people that are not supposed to be in possession of firearms...in a way, other than the paper you sign stating you are not a person restricted from having, possessing or using a firearm, how else would a gun range know? It could make perfect and good business sense, if it just didnt reek of an underlying hidden agenda.

These are the kind of things that infuriate people and rightly so...i wouldnt be surprised if this range suffers from an immediate drop in business due to this outing

I would stop doing business with them.

FalconLair
08-05-2012, 5:35 AM
That is an absolute BS argument. They are sending the names in after the individual has filled out the form and started using the range. The police can't be doing instant background checks on these people. They are probably sending in the names at the end of each business day. How is that going to stop anyone from renting a gun if they are a prohibited person?

They are also sending in the names of all of the users of the range, even those who bring in their own firearms.

The only flaw in that arguement is that the background check would be done well after the rental took place. So at best all it would do is prevent them from renting to the person in the future.....and even that assumes that the PD would actually report back to them anything found regarding prohibited persons which the article doesn't seem to indicate one way or the other if that was happening.both of you guys have it right, although when creating my post for their possible "liability" defense :D my thinking was for future referencing people who had previously shot there, maybe by creating some form of internal database for such information...that's why i used the term "weeding out", because it is a process, as far as sending in the names of those who even bring in their own firearms, I think they could still argue a liability issue if they allow even such a restricted person, in that case, to use their facility.

I don't buy into it any more than you guys do, just bringing out the type of defense the gun range could use to try and show some justification for this kind of bs...for all obvious intent and purposes, this was a pretty shady thing to be going on, IMHO

FalconLair
08-05-2012, 5:42 AM
My biggest question is why the police are so hard up for information about who went to a gun range? Especially if they had to rent a gun to use. its not like they get to take the gun back home with them, so basically all they have done is dole out some cash to fire some rounds out of someone else's firearms

What type of mass profile are you gonna create out of that? What is the usefulness? A "people who most likely DONT have their own firearms?" file LOL...seems like a lot of effort for keeping track of non gun owning people, ya think?

kermit315
08-05-2012, 6:25 AM
My biggest question is why the police are so hard up for information about who went to a gun range? Especially if they had to rent a gun to use. its not like they get to take the gun back home with them, so basically all they have done is dole out some cash to fire some rounds out of someone else's firearms

What type of mass profile are you gonna create out of that? What is the usefulness? A "people who most likely DONT have their own firearms?" file LOL...seems like a lot of effort for keeping track of non gun owning people, ya think?

Its not about guns, its about control. They control the range.

bruceflinch
08-05-2012, 11:41 AM
If I remember correctly, Badger was one of few FFLs operating in the area and the only one selling inexpensive guns. I think a lot of their customers were not the right color and the police were profiling their customers as they left the parking lot.

It's impossible to expect that you would never find an FFL that had sold a gun which was later used in a crime.

If Badger was selling firearms illegally, that is bad but I did not hear that. They just had good prices and the crooks comparison shop.

"Dat Badger got 2, deuce deuce or a Fotay for the same low price!

Milwaukee & the Capitol, Madison are both hotbeds of Liberal thinking....

Wherryj
08-06-2012, 1:25 PM
Thats some BS. What's the point in reporting all those customers? What were they getting out of it?

Hopefully Chapter 7 (bankruptcy).

Theodore Edward
08-06-2012, 4:26 PM
At the risk of being banned.... POLICE STATE!

TacticalPlinker
08-09-2012, 8:10 AM
Found this on another forum in case anyone was interested... It's a screenshot of the release form.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t81/JetGirlPics/ReleaseForm.jpg

Wherryj
08-09-2012, 8:58 AM
I hope that gun owners take this viral and force the place into bankruptcy. Maybe someone with a respect for their customers can purchase the place at the fire sale.

advocatusdiaboli
08-09-2012, 5:30 PM
This action is wrong but first, I have to say, I understand the range's fear: they worry about being drawn into a lawsuit if a prohibited person rents a firearm (i.e. is in possession which is illegal and given it by the range) and hurts someone. It's a fact of civil lawsuits that plaintiff's attorneys look for proximal causes and deep pockets—the ranger will have both so they'll be listed in the complaint no doubt. However, they have a solid defense: they are under no legal obligation to run background checks on every renter and therefore have no way of knowing, other than the renter's attesting to the statements on the form, if someone is a prohibited person. So they have down their legal and reasonable due diligence and should not be liable.

But more to the point, the police (or anyone) have to have a legal reason (probable cause (PS), reasonable suspicion (RS), or legislative mandate as in purchase application for instance) to run a background check. A bank cannot run a credit check without you permission. What they are doing is illegal search because they have no RS or PC yet are conducting and investigation into a private citizen's life. It's similar to patting down all people on a a street in front of a bar at night because that might be where crime is likely to occur—those actions would be struck down by a court s overly broad and prejudicial violations of privacy and rights without PC or RS. If a mass sobriety check is illegal, this certainly is. The NRA should sue this range into bankruptcy.