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Phouty
08-02-2012, 11:15 AM
Yeah....United Kingdom sort of became a Brady's dream.
Just received some interesting numbers from my friend living in UK.
The fur on my back raised after seeing those figures for England and Wales.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/d/d8/Crimes_recorded_by_the_police_-_Violent_crime%2C_2003-2009.PNG

Somewhat related, however I'm gonna abstain from comments.
http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/vibrant-enriched-london-where-three-quarters-murder-suspects-are-non-white

Shall we submit those statistics to Mr. Dan Gross of Bradys Bunch in order to educate him/them a little bit? :p
Nah....forget it...hopeless.....:sleeping:

Is this a future they want us to live in? Thank you very much. I/we stick rather with our shoulder things which go up to the benefit of almost everyone in our society.

mpwang
08-02-2012, 11:37 AM
So, unless I'm reading this wrong, the rates went up until 2006 and then down since. Are you upset that it's going down with regards to their firearm policy? As firearm activists, we should not be upset that people aren't getting hurt in countries whose ideologies aren't the same as ours. This small sample set from 2003 to 2009 still isn't enough to suggest that less guns=less crime.

In fact, one could suggest that there was an increase of crime from 03 to 06.
I'm still wondering why they chose 2006 as a base year for crime in the table to far right. Seems like cherry picking to me, but oh well.

Phouty
08-02-2012, 11:53 AM
In a certain way I'm upset. Purely personal....my daughter and her husband (USAF) live recently in east England.
But it's not a trend in statistics, but huge discrepancy in numbers of assaults committed in England v.s. Scotland, or measured against any large European country, e.g. Germany, France or Italy, which have much more liberal gun policies, or different approach to the subject of self defence.

This clearly shows, that disarming of the society leads to some inherent social behavior.
That's all.
And yes, I do worry about my family living over there.

finyllw
08-02-2012, 2:23 PM
Did you see the report of a woman in china who stabbed 8 people to death before she was stopped?

If one person had a weapon (gun) that person could have saved of few of those people.

You don't need a gun to kill or hurt many people quickly. But 1 gun in a crowd could make a big difference in the outcome quickly. I'm happy for the Brady Bunch who feel all warm and cozy in their false sense of security. I would like to ask them what they would do when TSHTF> I'm sure their answer would be call the police. Then I would ask them why the police and their answer would be - cause they have guns. Fricking hypocrites!

Decoligny
08-02-2012, 2:44 PM
From the UK information 2009

Population: 53,000,000
Violent Crimes: 1,001322

From the US information 2009

Population: 294,464,396
Violent Crimes: 1,820,127

Looks like in 2009 the UK violent crime rate was 3.056 times that of the US.

And that is with all the guns here in the US and almost none in the UK.

CBruce
08-02-2012, 5:48 PM
Did you see the report of a woman in china who stabbed 8 people to death before she was stopped?

If one person had a weapon (gun) that person could have saved of few of those people.

Arguably, if one person had a knife, they could have stopped up to 8 killers...

CBruce
08-02-2012, 5:50 PM
From the UK information 2009

Population: 53,000,000
Violent Crimes: 1,001322

From the US information 2009

Population: 294,464,396
Violent Crimes: 1,820,127

Looks like in 2009 the UK violent crime rate was 3.056 times that of the US.

And that is with all the guns here in the US and almost none in the UK.

How many murders though...cause those are the stats gun-control groups focus on. They'll argue that the abscense of guns equates to fewer deaths and it's better (as in less ****ty) to have larger numbers of people attacked and injured then smaller numbers of people killed.

Curtis
08-02-2012, 6:58 PM
From the UK information 2009

Population: 53,000,000
Violent Crimes: 1,001322

From the US information 2009

Population: 294,464,396
Violent Crimes: 1,820,127

Looks like in 2009 the UK violent crime rate was 3.056 times that of the US.

And that is with all the guns here in the US and almost none in the UK.

The crime numbers are only from England and Wales. It doesn't include Ireland and Scotland. I'm not sure if the population is limited to England and Wales too.

Interesting numbers. We have friends visiting from Oso, Norway. They said that Oso is having issues with Gypsies from Romania. They travel to Oso in mass for begging during the summer months. They say that the crime rates jump when they are in town. And due to the EU, they can't prevent them from coming into the country.

Looking at the numbers, Romania joined the EU Jan 1, 2007. That is the same year that Romania's crime dropped and it jumped in most of the wealthier countries.

nick
08-02-2012, 7:13 PM
From the UK information 2009

Population: 53,000,000
Violent Crimes: 1,001322

From the US information 2009

Population: 294,464,396
Violent Crimes: 1,820,127

Looks like in 2009 the UK violent crime rate was 3.056 times that of the US.

And that is with all the guns here in the US and almost none in the UK.

This is why antis concentrate on "gun" violence, as opposed to violence.

nick
08-02-2012, 7:16 PM
The crime numbers are only from England and Wales. It doesn't include Ireland and Scotland. I'm not sure if the population is limited to England and Wales too.

Interesting numbers. We have friends visiting from Oso, Norway. They said that Oso is having issues with Gypsies from Romania. They travel to Oso in mass for begging during the summer months. They say that the crime rates jump when they are in town. And due to the EU, they can't prevent them from coming into the country.

Looking at the numbers, Romania joined the EU Jan 1, 2007. That is the same year that Romania's crime dropped and it jumped in most of the wealthier countries.

Norway actually has a slightly higher rate of violent crimes than the US does. It comes as a shock to a lot of Europeans. However, if you compare the data from their Ministry of Statistics's website to FBI's UCR, the violent crime rate in Norway is a bit lower than in the US, because they don't include rapes in those stats, while the FBI does. Add up the rapes, and Norway has a higher rate of violent crimes than the US. And it's one of the safest countries in Europe.

nick
08-02-2012, 7:17 PM
How many murders though...cause those are the stats gun-control groups focus on. They'll argue that the abscense of guns equates to fewer deaths and it's better (as in less ****ty) to have larger numbers of people attacked and injured then smaller numbers of people killed.

Not even murders - gun murders :) So if one was killed with a knife, it's ok, since no evil gun was involved. If one was beaten within an inch of his life and left in a vegetable state, it's not a murder, and when he dies later on, it's death from natural causes.

G60
08-02-2012, 7:18 PM
To be completely fair, the UK considers a very vast amount of crimes as "violence against the person" and "sexual offences" compared to what is included in the FBI UCR's as "violent crime."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/counting-rules/count-violence

wash
08-02-2012, 7:21 PM
I just recently met Fred Perrin and his lovely wife.

They have come up with all manner of innocent looking self defense tools because people have to arm themselves to survive in Europe.

Unfortunately there is no defense to being stabbed in the back by a chav who wants to buy a new track suit.

That doesn't happen here so much because an armed person can still pull a trigger after they have been stabbed.

Phouty
08-02-2012, 7:41 PM
The crown argument of the hoplophobes is to compare UK and US murder rates as a proof, that the extreme gun control laws work.
However a quick search of British webpages reveals completely different picture.
Just took me a few seconds to find this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6407137/Armed-officers-placed-on-routine-foot-patrol-for-first-time.html
Or this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/aug/05/ukcrime.nickpatonwalsh
Or this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html
Or this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2001/life_of_crime/police.stm

And so on...ad nauseam!

So, what's going on on that "peacefull" Wet Island?
Have they achieved already that advanced stage of human society, where no violence whatsoever takes place? I wish, Mr. Dan Gross or anyone else from the Brady bunch would explain it to me.
Well.....fat chance! :43:

Dutch3
08-02-2012, 8:36 PM
The thread title reminds me of Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise".

Shakin' in their beds at night, livin' in the Bradys' Paradise

Got no hope to save their lives, livin' in the Bradys' Paradise

Conk him with a rolling pin, he'll rack his Glock and do you in

Livin' in the Bradys' Paradise, livin' in the Bradys' Paradise...


Someone should write the lyrics.

G60
08-02-2012, 8:43 PM
The thread title reminds me of Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise".



Or Stevie Wonder's 'Pastime Paradise' for us 29 year old geezers. :oji::oji:

DannyInSoCal
08-02-2012, 8:46 PM
In reference to the UK -

OF COURSE gun violence goes down when guns are confiscated.

With a HUGE increase in TOTAL violent crimes.

The reverse is also true here when concealed carry is allowed after being restricted-

Wisconsin recently allowed concealed carry after restricting it for more than a decade-

Anti's point to an increase in crime -

Even though VIOLENT crime is reduced.

Criminals begin breaking into four or five cars in a night instead a home...

Dreaded Claymore
08-02-2012, 9:22 PM
This clearly shows, that disarming of the society leads to some inherent social behavior.

I wouldn't go quite that far. What it does show is that there is NOT a relationship between how disarmed the society is and how peaceful it is.

gunsandrockets
08-02-2012, 10:41 PM
Joyce Lee Malcom busted the bogus theory of English gun control years ago. Even wrote a book on the subject.

link to 2002 article

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twisted-outcome/singlepage

One paragraph excerpt from article

"The illusion that the English government had protected its citizens by disarming them seemed credible because few realized the country had an astonishingly low level of armed crime even before guns were restricted. A government study for the years 1890-92, for example, found only three handgun homicides, an average of one a year, in a population of 30 million. In 1904 there were only four armed robberies in London, then the largest city in the world. A hundred years and many gun laws later, the BBC reported that England's firearms restrictions "seem to have had little impact in the criminal underworld." Guns are virtually outlawed, and, as the old slogan predicted, only outlaws have guns. Worse, they are increasingly ready to use them."

link to book

http://www.joyceleemalcolm.com/books/guns_and_violence

nick
08-02-2012, 11:03 PM
To be completely fair, the UK considers a very vast amount of crimes as "violence against the person" and "sexual offences" compared to what is included in the FBI UCR's as "violent crime."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/counting-rules/count-violence

So do we. Check out what we may consider domestic violence and assault and battery.

safewaysecurity
08-02-2012, 11:28 PM
I thought prison was their dream. 100% gun control in prison.

phamkl
08-02-2012, 11:35 PM
The thread title reminds me of Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise".

Shakin' in their beds at night, livin' in the Bradys' Paradise

Got no hope to save their lives, livin' in the Bradys' Paradise

Conk him with a rolling pin, he'll rack his Glock and do you in

Livin' in the Bradys' Paradise, livin' in the Bradys' Paradise...


Someone should write the lyrics.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

G60
08-02-2012, 11:41 PM
So do we. Check out what we may consider domestic violence and assault and battery.

Except we don't:
"In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault."

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/violent-crime

The more you know.

Phouty
08-03-2012, 12:30 AM
I wouldn't go quite that far. What it does show is that there is NOT a relationship between how disarmed the society is and how peaceful it is.

Well, possibly I've oversimplified my statement.
There's also a possibility, I do admit, that I might be wrong. I dunno.

Let me in very simple terms explain what I meant. (By analizing the "British case").
I see a following causal relationship:
1. Guns banned==> use of other weapons, e.g. knives goes up.
2. Knives banned==> use of 'substitutes', e.g. screwdrivers goes up.
However many of those 'substitutes' are quite often common tools or objects, so more and more people are affected by consecutive bans or limitations.
Many of law abiding and innocent citizens, inadvertently become subject, if not of a persecution for weapons' laws violations, but at least find themselves in unpleasant situations. (Can't find the video right now on YT showing some carpenter in UK being arrested for carrying his chain saw to work).
3. Society becomes truly disarmed==> petty criminals are emboldened==> amount of petty crimes is on the rise.
4. Law enforcement is unable to respond to increase in lesser and petty crimes which has two-prong implications:
A. Law abiding citizens become more passive when faced with even a petty crime. ("Hey, is it worth to apprehend that little petty thief? If yes, will I be persecuted when cops arrive, and find me in possession of a tea spoon which I happen to carry in my pocket?"....just as an example).
B. Seeing petty criminal not being persecuted, the youth, especially the underprivileged ones follow the example. (Gangs of minors in UK are practically doing everything without a fear of consequences for their actions).
4.Law enforcement resources are spread thin==> increase in more serious crime takes place.
5.More serious crime==> higher prospective profits==> "professionals" jump on the bandwagon==> really serious violent crimes are on the rise, e.g. due to "turf wars".
6. Serious criminals arm themselves (black market blooms)==> violence spirals.....

....and so on, and so on.......we see it here in US (e.g. in DC, Chicago, LA), we see it in UK, and also in any other place, where society is burdened with excessive laws limiting the possibility of self-defense.

I do admit, that scenario above is somewhat oversimplified (and one might poke many holes in it), but it wasn't my intention to write elaborate paper on the subject.
Just clarifying my statement.

CycloSteve
08-03-2012, 12:46 AM
After taking away the guns in GB, and the crazies have just turned to using bladed weapons. Earlier this week this wonderful person decided to attack a group in a Church with a Machete. Those intent on mayhem will still prey on their victims, just with different tools. The travesty is taking away the defensive tools from the good guys.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19074195

wjc
08-03-2012, 1:10 AM
Well, possibly I've oversimplified my statement.
There's also a possibility, I do admit, that I might be wrong. I dunno.

Let me in very simple terms explain what I meant. (By analyzing the "British case").
I see a following causal relationship:
1. Guns banned==> use of other weapons, e.g. knives goes up.
2. Knives banned==> use of 'substitutes', e.g. screwdrivers goes up.
However many of those 'substitutes' are quite often common tools or objects, so more and more people are affected by consecutive bans or limitations.
Many of law abiding and innocent citizens, inadvertently become subject, if not of a persecution for weapons' laws violations, but at least find themselves in unpleasant situations. (Can't find the video right now on YT showing some carpenter in UK being arrested for carrying his chain saw to work).
3. Society becomes truly disarmed==> petty criminals are emboldened==> amount of petty crimes is on the rise.
4. Law enforcement is unable to respond to increase in lesser and petty crimes which has two-prong implications:
A. Law abiding citizens become more passive when faced with even a petty crime. ("Hey, is it worth to apprehend that little petty thief? If yes, will I be persecuted when cops arrive, and find me in possession of a tea spoon which I happen to carry in my pocket?"....just as an example).
B. Seeing petty criminal not being persecuted, the youth, especially the underprivileged ones follow the example. (Gangs of minors in UK are practically doing everything without a fear of consequences for their actions).
4.Law enforcement resources are spread thin==> increase in more serious crime takes place.
5.More serious crime==> higher prospective profits==> "professionals" jump on the bandwagon==> really serious violent crimes are on the rise, e.g. due to "turf wars".
6. Serious criminals arm themselves (black market blooms)==> violence spirals.....

....and so on, and so on.......we see it here in US (e.g. in DC, Chicago, LA), we see it in UK, and also in any other place, where society is burdened with excessive laws limiting the possibility of self-defense.

I do admit, that scenario above is somewhat oversimplified (and one might poke many holes in it), but it wasn't my intention to write elaborate paper on the subject.
Just clarifying my statement.

Nope...I think you hit that nail squarely on the head.

BTW, one can kill with a chopstick or a pencil, too.