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View Full Version : Curious - new kind of rifle, market?


Dragunov
08-02-2012, 10:22 AM
When I move, IF there's a market for it, IF I can get the money and all associated permissions (Looks like a good possibility according to the research I've done), I plan on manufacturing a "rifle" that would be California compliant with a fixed magazine. I personally think this would be a good idea. I have a business plan and my wife is willing to help me with it. She has a degree in business management. This rifle will be very similar to a very common, semi-auto rifle, already legal in CA, but sources could dry up.

I want to build it in three calibers:

5.56 NATO.
7.62X39.
6.8 SPC.

I felt this would be relevent here due to the fact it would give California shooters another good quality semi-auto choice that would be LEGAL. I've done the math. They would retail for $425 each and I would make a pretty decent profit. Please assume I've done all the research, checked certain relevent laws, and have a good business plan. I just want to know what kind of market I'm looking at here in California. I feel REALLY bad for California shooters and if I can help relieve the misery this way, I would feel much better!

Just curious. Do you think there would be enough interest?

adampolo13
08-02-2012, 10:24 AM
I may be wrong but I think this is the wrong forum for this thread...

Dragunov
08-02-2012, 10:31 AM
I may be wrong but I think this is the wrong forum for this thread...I didn't know where else to post it. This response didn't answer my question.
My apologies to the Mods if this isn't the place. I'm concerned with the 2A here in CA, and want to help the situation, I thought it was relevent in that regards.

Dragunov
08-02-2012, 10:34 AM
I guess I could've posted this in the general section. Sorry, I won't be offended if it's moved there by a Mod. :)

Anti-Hero
08-02-2012, 10:35 AM
What would make your "rifle" special?

Why would I want your rifle, over the myriad of choices already chambered in the listed calibers? Why would I want a fixed magazine, when people are working so hard to get rid of idiotic things like bullet buttons?

Meplat1
08-02-2012, 10:51 AM
When I move, IF there's a market for it, IF I can get the money and all associated permissions (Looks like a good possibility according to the research I've done), I plan on manufacturing a "rifle" that would be California compliant with a fixed magazine. I personally think this would be a good idea. I have a business plan and my wife is willing to help me with it. She has a degree in business management. This rifle will be very similar to a very common, semi-auto rifle, already legal in CA, but sources could dry up.

I want to build it in three calibers:

5.56 NATO.
7.62X39.
6.8 SPC.

I felt this would be relevent here due to the fact it would give California shooters another good quality semi-auto choice that would be LEGAL. I've done the math. They would retail for $425 each and I would make a pretty decent profit. Please assume I've done all the research, checked certain relevent laws, and have a good business plan. I just want to know what kind of market I'm looking at here in California. I feel REALLY bad for California shooters and if I can help relieve the misery this way, I would feel much better!

Just curious. Do you think there would be enough interest?

Sounds intriguing. Would it be stripper fed?

Dragunov
08-02-2012, 11:02 AM
Yes, fed by strippers for CA. Removable 10 round, or Hi-Cap, box magazine everywhere they're legal.


Anti-Hero.

1) The after market parts are already available.

2) It's new instead of milsurp, and MOST of the Milsurp parts will work with it.

3) I feel I can offer it with a lifetime warranty.

4) You're probably not going to get rid of the stupid "AWB" anytime soon. I hope I'm wrong.

5) It's American made, and will be a better rifle than some of the current offerings.

6) It will be more economical than most other rifles currently available. Have you priced a Saiga or Mini-14 lately?

7) MUCH improved trigger group. There will be reasonably priced trigger groups manufactured that will ALSO work in the milsurps.

8) I will personally guarantee the accuracy.

Just sayin'.

adampolo13
08-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Have you thought about a "hinged floorplate" type AR15? Have the mag be part of the lower. The safety issue around being able to remove the mag in case of jams would still be there? Just a thought?

Dragunov
08-02-2012, 11:17 AM
Have you thought about a "hinged floorplate" type AR15? Have the mag be part of the lower. The safety issue around being able to remove the mag in case of jams would still be there? Just a thought? Not really. I like the way the SKS magazine works.

I'm always up for Ideas! I don't know if I'll be able to pull it off, but I'm seriously going to give it a try.

I may even send a few (3 or 4) to Calgunners to try for free. You'll be able to keep the rifle for free afterwards. Warranty in tact. There will be no cost to the recipient. I'll want them tested, and tested hard. Any failures will be repaired or replaced for free, just as it would for a paying customer. I'll take reccommendations for improvements.

adampolo13
08-02-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm always up for a new riffle. count me in.

ptoguy2002
08-02-2012, 11:44 AM
If you wanted to make a rifle for California, this, and only this, is where it is at:
http://www.blackstararms.com/images/rifle_splash.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/NewImage.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/BlackStar/100_2348_640x480.jpg

That said though, IMHO the blackstar isn't a very good design.
You can't take the AR system and adapt it to a traditional stock and have it be 100%.
And you can't release the mags the way it was design, finger to the release.
The Keltec SU16 is the closest there is to ideal geometry, but it is a POS.
A gun setup like the Keltec, which used standard AR barrel, nut, hand guard, bolt, firing pin, cam pin, trigger asy, and a Remington 870 stock would be absolutely awesome, and very possible.
New upper design, new lower design, new bolt carrier, buffer, and recoil spring/rod designed around existing parts.

Basically take this, and make it use AR parts as much as possible:
http://guncentral.net/Pictures/Rifles/su16CA.jpg

Dragunov
08-02-2012, 12:51 PM
If you wanted to make a rifle for California, this, and only this, is where it is at:
http://www.blackstararms.com/images/rifle_splash.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/NewImage.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/BlackStar/100_2348_640x480.jpg

That said though, IMHO the blackstar isn't a very good design.
You can't take the AR system and adapt it to a traditional stock and have it be 100%.
And you can't release the mags the way it was design, finger to the release.
The Keltec SU16 is the closest there is to ideal geometry, but it is a POS.
A gun setup like the Keltec, which used standard AR barrel, nut, hand guard, bolt, firing pin, cam pin, trigger asy, and a Remington 870 stock would be absolutely awesome, and very possible.
New upper design, new lower design, new bolt carrier, buffer, and recoil spring/rod designed around existing parts.

Basically take this, and make it use AR parts as much as possible:
http://guncentral.net/Pictures/Rifles/su16CA.jpgI have one of these, Mines actually pretty decent. Good point.

Corbin Dallas
08-02-2012, 9:09 PM
I will personally never own a fixed mag ar15 for a variety of reasons. Besides, my m1a is way more evil and takes all the standard cap mags I can feed it without a conversion kit.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
08-02-2012, 9:56 PM
Always good to have new style rifles.

JamesY
08-02-2012, 10:27 PM
Any pics/sketches?

C.W.M.V.
08-02-2012, 10:32 PM
Very very interested in more info.
Ive been in the market for a new rifle but I cant justify buying another AK and I simply dont like AR's.
Would like to see what you have in mind.

blockfort
08-02-2012, 10:33 PM
How can you build a rifle in the US, sell it for less than most pistols, and still make a good profit?

nick
08-02-2012, 10:45 PM
I'm always open to trying a new kind of design, so I'm curious how this will turn out. Hey, while you're at it, make sure to make 80% receivers. If the trigger pocket is similar to AR-15 receivers, we'll be able to use the existing code/measurements :D

CSACANNONEER
08-02-2012, 10:49 PM
I have one of these, Mines actually pretty decent. Good point.

You have a Blackstar? Or, just a Keltec?

nick
08-02-2012, 11:07 PM
You have a Blackstar? Or, just a Keltec?

At a guess, a Keltec.

Gothboy
08-03-2012, 4:42 AM
Sounds very intriguing, and I think I know where you're going with this. Please, count me involved with this. Any chance I get to help someone trying to improve things in CA, count me in! -GothY-

bigbearbear
08-03-2012, 11:53 AM
I think you might have better luck if you make it a shotgun with interesting design. The recent KSG introduced by Kel-Tec is one such example, it is legal and very a niffty design, the manufacturer could never seems to keep enough of them on the shelve.

If you can make another good shotgun with new designs and at a good price point, I think it will be rather popular.

And oh, my primary interest for a firearm is for home defense. So a short over length is an advantage for me. It need not be sniper-rifle accurate but must be 100% reliable with minimal maintenance required. Easy to clean is also a must as I don't want to spend a lot of time on it.

I want a pistol grip too, I've been trained in the military M16 and I'm not used to those rifles without pistol grips on them.

Dragunov
08-03-2012, 12:13 PM
It's not based on the AR, Its based on the SKS with improvements. I'll try an "altered picture" and upload it this weekend sometime. The reason I picked the SKS?

Sturdy.
Sound design.
Accurate, and with some work..... More accurate.
Ease of manufacture.
Not as evil looking as an AR.
Very little needs to be done to chamber it in 6.8SPC or 5.56 NATO.
Easy to configure for CA, or other.
Gas piston operated.

Probably will come with a "tactical" type, nylon, ambidextrous, stock. Mine has a similar stock that I like. Simple, improved LOP and grip.

Reciever driiled for scope (ALL varieties!), NOT reciever cover.
Improved Irons.

Improvements planned:

Better trigger group.
Better irons.
Better magazine.
Heavier, longer barrel. A 22" barrel with the gas port unmoved is pretty ideal, especially for the 7.62X39.

Less "slop" in construction. I found the best way to improve accuracy in an SKS is to tighten up it's construction. I have a Norinco I did this with (MUCH experimentation) and found that this is the key to good, SKS accuracy.

I'm not sure if I'll change from a free-float firing pin or not. The spring loaded ones don't always work well with Milsurp ammo.

Yehosha
08-03-2012, 2:08 PM
I want to build it in three calibers:

5.56 NATO.
7.62X39.
6.8 SPC.

I'm curious, having never purchased any of those types of rounds, how affordable are they?

blockfort
08-03-2012, 2:40 PM
It's not based on the AR, Its based on the SKS with improvements. I'll try an "altered picture" and upload it this weekend sometime. The reason I picked the SKS?

Sturdy.
Sound design.
Accurate, and with some work..... More accurate.
Ease of manufacture.
Not as evil looking as an AR.
Very little needs to be done to chamber it in 6.8SPC or 5.56 NATO.
Easy to configure for CA, or other.
Gas piston operated.

Probably will come with a "tactical" type, nylon, ambidextrous, stock. Mine has a similar stock that I like. Simple, improved LOP and grip.

Reciever driiled for scope (ALL varieties!), NOT reciever cover.
Improved Irons.

Improvements planned:

Better trigger group.
Better irons.
Better magazine.
Heavier, longer barrel. A 22" barrel with the gas port unmoved is pretty ideal, especially for the 7.62X39.

Less "slop" in construction. I found the best way to improve accuracy in an SKS is to tighten up it's construction. I have a Norinco I did this with (MUCH experimentation) and found that this is the key to good, SKS accuracy.

I'm not sure if I'll change from a free-float firing pin or not. The spring loaded ones don't always work well with Milsurp ammo.

All that for $425?

Woody13
08-03-2012, 2:41 PM
Great idea and I would be very interested in testing one for you. Im a young retired vet with the resources to test it from range to desert. I will put it through whatever you want just as we would in the military and then some. Let me know.....

C.W.M.V.
08-03-2012, 6:39 PM
It's not based on the AR, Its based on the SKS with improvements. I'll try an "altered picture" and upload it this weekend sometime. The reason I picked the SKS?

Sturdy.
Sound design.
Accurate, and with some work..... More accurate.
Ease of manufacture.
Not as evil looking as an AR.
Very little needs to be done to chamber it in 6.8SPC or 5.56 NATO.
Easy to configure for CA, or other.
Gas piston operated.

Probably will come with a "tactical" type, nylon, ambidextrous, stock. Mine has a similar stock that I like. Simple, improved LOP and grip.

Reciever driiled for scope (ALL varieties!), NOT reciever cover.
Improved Irons.

Improvements planned:

Better trigger group.
Better irons.
Better magazine.
Heavier, longer barrel. A 22" barrel with the gas port unmoved is pretty ideal, especially for the 7.62X39.

Less "slop" in construction. I found the best way to improve accuracy in an SKS is to tighten up it's construction. I have a Norinco I did this with (MUCH experimentation) and found that this is the key to good, SKS accuracy.

I'm not sure if I'll change from a free-float firing pin or not. The spring loaded ones don't always work well with Milsurp ammo.

Shoot if it looked as good as it sounds Id ve down for at least 1.

Fjold
08-03-2012, 6:48 PM
I told Blackstar that I'd buy one when they come out. I wonder how long I'm obligated for that?

CSACANNONEER
08-03-2012, 6:58 PM
I told Blackstar that I'd buy one when they come out. I wonder how long I'm obligated for that?

Just for two more weeks. But, you should've known that.:p

Spyder
08-04-2012, 9:23 AM
Those features for $425, I'd be in for one without a doubt. As long as it doesn't blow up, blind me, or shoot crooked. :D

prob
08-04-2012, 9:37 AM
Blackstar rifles are unquestionably the ugliest guns ever produced. They make the Mossberg tactical lever action look classic by comparison.

zhyla
08-04-2012, 1:01 PM
You like the SKS design because of ease of manufacture? What are you replacing the milled steel receiver with?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The hole in the CA market is a decent 9mm/.40/.45 sub gun that takes common magazines and has a tactical flavor. Like a featureless beretta CX4.

Dragunov
08-04-2012, 3:51 PM
You like the SKS design because of ease of manufacture? What are you replacing the milled steel receiver with?

. That's MY secret. :)

Meplat1
08-06-2012, 4:10 PM
I'm curious, having never purchased any of those types of rounds, how affordable are they?

5.56 & 7.62 X 39 are available military surplus, and in faux military type ammo for decent prices. The 6.8 I know nothing about except that on paper it is a superior cartridge in this type of rifle. I would expect it to be quite pricey.

mike_the_wino
08-06-2012, 4:21 PM
425 and accurate? I always like new toys!

guitar-nut
08-06-2012, 4:24 PM
Sounds interesting, but I don't know that you'll be able to do all that for the price you're talking about. Plus, wouldn't "tightening up" the SKS design alter it's reliability? I thought that loose tolerances were an intended and important part of the design, much like the AK.

That said, it sounds interesting if you'd be able to pull it off.

Edit: Also, why fixed mag? Make it featureless, it'll be a lot more popular. If you need a fixed mag nothing is going to make someone choose it over an actual SKS or bullet-buttoned AR/AK. Being able to drop mags normally would be way cooler than just having another fixed mag rifle. Fixed mags are inconvenient, pure and simple. You'd have virtually no free state customers with a fixed mag.

russ69
08-06-2012, 4:57 PM
...I plan on manufacturing a "rifle"...

Tell us about your manufacturing/engineering/small business experience.

saki302
08-06-2012, 9:15 PM
Here's an idea for you.


How about making an AR lower with an integrated 10 round magazine, which slides down about 3", then rotates to the side for loading/unloading?

It's 100% fixed, but still useful for clearing jams and easy to load (you could use strippers with a guide if it uses a traditional 10 round mag internally).

-Dave

Dragunov
08-06-2012, 10:19 PM
Here's an idea for you.


How about making an AR lower with an integrated 10 round magazine, which slides down about 3", then rotates to the side for loading/unloading?

It's 100% fixed, but still useful for clearing jams and easy to load (you could use strippers with a guide if it uses a traditional 10 round mag internally).

-DaveThere are enough AR clones already.

Dragunov
08-06-2012, 10:23 PM
Tell us about your manufacturing/engineering/small business experience.Tell us about yours. I know where you're going with this. I'll put you on ignore before I go on a post-p*ssing contest. I'll either be able to do it, or I won't. Either way, it's no consequence to you.

C.W.M.V.
08-07-2012, 12:06 AM
Lack of experience didn't stop this tank commander from designing the most successful firearm of all time, maybe you know him?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Mikhail_Kalashnikov.jpg

Just saying.

Anti-Hero
08-07-2012, 1:57 AM
Lack of experience didn't stop this tank commander from designing the most successful firearm of all time, maybe you know him?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Mikhail_Kalashnikov.jpg

Just saying.

Zing!

nicki
08-07-2012, 3:04 AM
Sounds interesting.

If you could make it so that you have both an upper and lower reciever and make the lower part the registered part, you could then have the modular appeal of the AR.

You may want to look at Colt's new 308 rifle(AR10 type) because it can take AR15 uppers also.

If you could do something similar to Colt with your rifle, you would open up caliber choices big time.

Having a lower that a person could add additional uppers to may add costs to your gun, but it would increase sales.

Most of us probably have only one upper for our ARs, but we like the option of getting additional ones.

One round you may want to consider is the 300 Blackout, that is a new upcoming round that using the same bolt and mags as the .223

Nicki

SDgarrick
08-07-2012, 11:15 AM
I like that the SKS uses stripper clips and a fixed mag. no mags to lose/buy, quick reload, no mag reliability issues.

I've always thought the SKS would make a good field/scout rifle with a low power, wide view scope.

rock on dude, let us know how the project goes.

skylovia
08-07-2012, 7:29 PM
This is VERY interesting and cool to me! Affordable, common parts, CA legal rifle? I'm in! Rock on dude. Don't let the haters hold you back. PLEASE keep us posted.

Ergo the Qualmed
08-07-2012, 10:24 PM
If you need a tester, i'd love to be considered. I love the SKS platform, and what you are talking about is most certainly intriguing! So, knowing some of the quirks of the SKS and whatnot, I think i'd do a great job evaluating it.

You did say "free" and "keep," right? :D

Sunday
08-08-2012, 5:52 PM
How about a mini 14 type rifle but with AR15 parts gas system . I would rather not have a pistol grip . Something like a Keltech su 16 but heavy duty and with quality. SKS like with the ability to modify to accept AR magazines.

Dragunov
08-08-2012, 6:15 PM
How about a mini 14 type rifle but with AR15 parts gas system . I would rather not have a pistol grip . Something like a Keltech su 16 but heavy duty and with quality. SKS like with the ability to modify to accept AR magazines.I don't like the Mini. I may run into patent issues with an SU rifle, although I've thought about it. the SKS won't give me any "issues".

russ69
08-10-2012, 11:06 AM
Tell us about yours. I know where you're going with this. I'll put you on ignore before I go on a post-p*ssing contest. I'll either be able to do it, or I won't. Either way, it's no consequence to you.

36 years in the Aerospace industry as a senior design specialist/engineer. I'm not in a pissing contest but I do know the costs for working up a new design. It's easier on a small scale but as soon as you start selling to the general public, the liability costs gets really huge.
I was just curious about your experience. Ronnie Barrett started from nothing and he has a great success, so I know it can still be done. Sorry if my question pissed you off but you said you were looking for money. Investors/bankers will be asking tougher questions than that. Anyway, get a working prototype built, that's the key step at this point.

Dragunov
08-24-2012, 7:09 PM
36 years in the Aerospace industry as a senior design specialist/engineer. I'm not in a pissing contest but I do know the costs for working up a new design. It's easier on a small scale but as soon as you start selling to the general public, the liability costs gets really huge.
I was just curious about your experience. Ronnie Barrett started from nothing and he has a great success, so I know it can still be done. Sorry if my question pissed you off but you said you were looking for money. Investors/bankers will be asking tougher questions than that. Anyway, get a working prototype built, that's the key step at this point.You intended no harm. It's just usually that when someone starts a post like that, it turns out to be a massive post-p!ssin' contest. I understand what you're saying. My wife and I are working on our business plan. I'm not looking for investors unless someone volunteers it. If that's the case, I'll give them my business plan and all the details, so they know what they're in for. :)