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View Full Version : You register your car, why not your guns?


Kauf
08-02-2012, 8:22 AM
I was approached with this question earlier this week and the best answer I could come up with is "owning a car is not a fundamental right, but owning a gun is, and given the history and current atmosphere of our government and weapons, I don't want them knowing what I own." Anyone else have some good arguments for this, as I feel that I could have made a stronger one. Just don't know how to put it to words.

OldShooter32
08-02-2012, 8:24 AM
Cars need only be registered if they are driven on publicly-maintained roads. I will cheerfully register the firearms I shoot on the ranges built with public funds. If there are any...

njineermike
08-02-2012, 8:25 AM
I was approached with this question earlier this week and the best answer I could come up with is "owning a car is not a fundamental right, but owning a gun is, and given the history and current atmosphere of our government and weapons, I don't want them knowing what I own." Anyone else have some good arguments for this, as I feel that I could have made a stronger one. Just don't know how to put it to words.

Easy: "Which form do you fill out to register your right to free speech, your right to an attorney, your right to not incriminate yourself, or any other constitutionally protected right?"

robcoe
08-02-2012, 8:26 AM
Cars need only be registered if they are driven on publicly-maintained roads. I will cheerfully register the firearms I shoot on the ranges built with public funds. If there are any...

Like he said, you're not required to register your car, or get a license, or insurance, or take a test or anything in order to buy, own and use a car on private property, only on public roads.

L4D
08-02-2012, 8:26 AM
why not register your fridge or water heater?

Whoever asked you that is a complete idiot.

Kauf
08-02-2012, 8:30 AM
Like he said, you're not required to register your car, or get a license, or insurance, or take a test or anything in order to buy, own and use a car on private property, only on public roads.

Thats a great point. Didn't even think of that!

blockfort
08-02-2012, 8:31 AM
Since cars were invented after the constitution, they couldn't have been included on the confirmation of rights (the constitution doesn't grant anything).

Lawmakers could claim that a car is a potentially dangerous machine, that you must be tested for, and must register to use.

If guns were invented after the constitution, they would have done the same thing (or worse!). There are weapons that were invented much more recently that you do need to apply for permission to use and must register, such as (but I'm not sure) high power lasers or sonic disruptors or fighter jets.

Untamed1972
08-02-2012, 8:33 AM
I have unregistered books at home too, what Gov't agency do I need to file my forms with?

As stated, it is not illegal to own and/or operate an unregistered vehicle so long as it is kept on private property. Which is generally where my guns are stored and/or operated.

I own many kinds of property, none of which is registered with the Gov't. Why should guns be any different?

Also, dont forget the primary purpose of vehicle registration is TAXATION!!! Taxation which is theoretically supposed to be used for maintaining the public roads. So if you use public roads your vehicle must be registered so you can taxed to contribute towards road maintenance.

For what ongoing public purpose is the registration of firearms supposed to fulfill? I paid sales tax on them when they were purchased, there is no ongoing taxation required for which the Gov't needs to keep track of my private property.....just like they dont need to keep track of my TV or my washing machine or what books I own etc.

jl7422
08-02-2012, 11:18 AM
Further; I can build or assemble virtually any type of car I want--to any level of performance I want, in the privacy of my own garage. . .

DannyInSoCal
08-02-2012, 11:23 AM
Yes - Because registering the firearms of law abiding tax paying citizens will OBVIOUSLY make us all safer...

:facepalm:

Bangzoom
08-02-2012, 11:28 AM
because the 2A was put in place to protect our rights against the Govt if they became tyrannous...one of the first things a tyrannous Govt will do is confiscate our weapons..the best way to do that is have a list of who has them and where they are..So in the spirit of the 2As intent registration would be unconstitutional...IMO

Renaissance Redneck
08-02-2012, 11:29 AM
Owning a gun is a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution; SCOTUS said so. Gun ownership is as fundamental as the freedom of speech, the press, practice of religion, etc. etc.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

So why not ask another question in response: How about your need to register when you want to engage in political speech, or when joining a particular religion, etc.? How do you think that would turn out?

Oceanbob
08-02-2012, 11:37 AM
The 2nd Amendment is a right. Not a privilege. The American people, especially politicians need to learn this. There is no good reason a law abiding American Citizen should have to register his guns with the Government. As a Citizen I am entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman. Laws that hinder, harass or prevent me from exercising my Rights go against the Constitution and should not be obeyed. Just my opinion folks.

We are working to change some of these laws. Wish us luck and skilled attorneys.

JackRydden224
08-02-2012, 12:23 PM
It's not about rights, privileges or amendments guys.

It's all about the MONEY.

Cars are usually financed or leased which means they need an entity to make monthly payments on the car. Banks will not be able to collect the money unless it is registered to an entity who will pay. Cars also require a registration renewal every year. The DMV would not know where to send the bill if the car is not registered. Car insurance is pretty self explanatory.

With guns you cannot take it home until you pay it full and afterwards there are no more fees to collect.If you are trying to explain it then you would need something practical, something everybody can relate to. Saying that it's a right clearly has not worked for us. You are right, but it doesn't work so at the end it gets you no where.

killathrilla
08-02-2012, 12:33 PM
...

JackRydden224
08-02-2012, 12:38 PM
REGISTRATION is the 1st step towards CONFISCATION.
Thats why!!

My car is registered but it hasn't been confiscated ;).

Untamed1972
08-02-2012, 12:40 PM
My car is registered but it hasn't been confiscated ;).

Yea....but see what happens if you get caught driving it on the King's roads with expired tags or no plates....LOL

killathrilla
08-02-2012, 12:42 PM
^^^ +1000 lol

odysseus
08-02-2012, 12:43 PM
When someone takes this position as per the car registration point, what it does is show a clear ignorance of the RKBA and natural rights. Which you should take kindly, and then invite in an open and calm way to explain it better to them that the whole paradigm they are thinking is in error, and here is why. Again, non judgmental and calmly. If they won't respect that and cannot echo a calmness and open minded conversation themselves, then they are not being honest with you.

It's akin to explaining to them that they need to register and pay for the free right to speech and practice their religion or non-religion. Of course they would say that is crazy and it is protected in the Constitution. Oh...

mcmikeblues7
08-02-2012, 12:51 PM
REGISTRATION is the 1st step towards CONFISCATION.
Thats why!!

++++1

JackRydden224
08-02-2012, 1:05 PM
Yea....but see what happens if you get caught driving it on the King's roads with expired tags or no plates....LOL

If I break the law then I should receive a penalty, no? If rob a store with my gun then my gun is going to get taken away. So how does registration lead to confiscation again? Let's see some cases (remember the OP wants to see how he can win an argument)

I've actually been busted with expired tags but the cop just let me go with a verbal warning. Maybe he had bigger fishes to fry on that day.

killathrilla
08-02-2012, 1:07 PM
Example: ENGLAND!

JackRydden224
08-02-2012, 1:16 PM
Example: ENGLAND!

Keep going, more details would help. If you can compare the crime rates for before and after confiscation then I think it would be a good argument for the OP to make.

killathrilla
08-02-2012, 1:19 PM
Lol.....Im posting from my phone and Im sure homeboy (op) has google capability. Juss sayin ;)

odysseus
08-02-2012, 1:20 PM
If I break the law then I should receive a penalty, no? If rob a store with my gun then my gun is going to get taken away. So how does registration lead to confiscation again? Let's see some cases (remember the OP wants to see how he can win an argument)

I've actually been busted with expired tags but the cop just let me go with a verbal warning. Maybe he had bigger fishes to fry on that day.

- The conversation is not within the paradigm. To support the natural right argument I don't need to prove that registration equals confiscation. I don't need to prove a negative to dance with it. I find the argument in error because it is based on a premise I should not argue on.

- The whole confiscation issue is that the registration is a first step, theoretically. Requiring registration documentation in history around the world has been used for confiscation later. Because it has happened not in the US as you say is not a position that erases this argument from existing. However again, it is not the core issue of the argument.

- Your experience with the car registration issue is anecdotal. There may be people out there who have always gotten tickets and even may be towed because of it. The point is, it is against the law to drive an unregistered car on public roads. It is illegal to not maintain proper registration information in your registration as well, and you can be cited for that as well. Car registration on public roads is a tax and compliance rule, and is not protected as a natural right.

db42
08-02-2012, 1:24 PM
It's not about rights, privileges or amendments guys.

It's all about the MONEY.

Cars are usually financed or leased which means they need an entity to make monthly payments on the car. Banks will not be able to collect the money unless it is registered to an entity who will pay. Cars also require a registration renewal every year. The DMV would not know where to send the bill if the car is not registered. Car insurance is pretty self explanatory.

With guns you cannot take it home until you pay it full and afterwards there are no more fees to collect.If you are trying to explain it then you would need something practical, something everybody can relate to. Saying that it's a right clearly has not worked for us. You are right, but it doesn't work so at the end it gets you no where.

This argument makes no sense.
People make monthly payments on cars because they're expensive and it's easier for them to pay them off bit by bit instead of a lump sum. This has nothing to do with the law.

If you want to pay monthly, then pay cash for the car.

vorpar
08-02-2012, 1:42 PM
How about the "right to privacy"?

Untamed1972
08-02-2012, 1:46 PM
If I break the law then I should receive a penalty, no? If rob a store with my gun then my gun is going to get taken away. So how does registration lead to confiscation again? Let's see some cases (remember the OP wants to see how he can win an argument)

I've actually been busted with expired tags but the cop just let me go with a verbal warning. Maybe he had bigger fishes to fry on that day.

If your tags are recently expired you will prolly just get a ticket. I think once past a certain point, over a year or more or something like that....if the car is on a public road it is required to be impounded.

In reality comparing cars and guns is kind of apples and oranges. As stated, the primary purpose car registation is taxation for road use and maintenance.

The purpose of gun registration is for the Gov't to keep tabs on something it views as a threat. Are all males who posess a penis required to register in case they become a sex-offender? No....we only register those who have already done something worthy of identifying them as a threat.

But the primary threat the Gov't is concerned with via registation is not the threat of crime or protecting public safety......it is threat to the Gov't itself they are concerned with.

Renaissance Redneck
08-02-2012, 1:47 PM
How about the "right to privacy"?

Privacy is not an enumerated right, but it may exist anyway based on the Ninth Amendment. That's controversial. If I remember rightly, Roe v. Wade addressed a "right to privacy" as reasoning supporting the right to have an abortion.

biglou
08-02-2012, 1:54 PM
One is a right, the other is a privilege. As far as not registering a vehicle to be used only on private land in California is a good question.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc4001.htm

odysseus
08-02-2012, 2:10 PM
One is a right, the other is a privilege. As far as not registering a vehicle to be used only on private land in California is a good question.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc4001.htm

That code I am assuming is for exempt vehicles. Like police, fire, government, etc. They have the "Exempt" written on the plate so they can use public roads.

A car that never sees public road use doesn't need registering. If that was the case I will have been in violation for years with race cars.

safewaysecurity
08-02-2012, 2:25 PM
Registration also does nothing to reduce crime and has never solved any crimes. It's costly amid it's already illegal to charge felons with possessing an unregistered gun because of protection against self incrimination.

TimRB
08-02-2012, 2:30 PM
The answer to that tired argument is simple: no one wants to confiscate my car.

Tim

stix213
08-02-2012, 2:47 PM
The purposes of registering your car are:

1) Generate state revenue
2) Compel mandatory insurance requirements
3) Compel mandatory smog testing
4) Government tracking of ownership

Are any of these goals of firearms owners?

Librarian
08-02-2012, 3:06 PM
To add to all the good answers already posted, gun registration serves no purpose that any reasonable person wants.

Let me create an impossible world. I wave my magic wand, and *poof*, we have perfect gun registration.

By perfect, I mean that every firearm within the borders of the US is now associated by make, model, caliber and description with some person or designated agency custodian, and their physical description and residence. If someone has a firearm and changes residence, they are now required to notify the registering agency. Somehow we found all those smuggled-in guns, all the war take-homes, all the home manufactured guns.

All of this information is in a super reliable, super fast database, with perfect data-entry validation and effectively instant updates, and it's redundantly available to The Proper Authorities.

Let's say the police are part of The Proper Authorities.

Officer Friendly performs a traffic stop. He checks the database, and the registration of the vehicle is tied to the gun database. The registered owner of the car returns 'no guns'.

Can Officer Friendly approach the vehicle, secure in the knowledge that nobody could possibly think of shooting at him?

Of course not. Officer Friendly has no idea who is actually in the car. Mr No-guns may have lent his car to Mr Glockowner. The car may have just been stolen by Ms Coltowner. Mr Smith and Mrs Wesson may be passengers in the vehicle.

The same problem appears with any address - one has no way to know who is in the dwelling or the business.

If the information does not allow the police to change their behavior, if they must still behave as if a gun might be in any situation and take appropriate precautions, who benefits from registration?

No one with any intent I want to support.

NytWolf
08-02-2012, 3:23 PM
Cars need only be registered if they are driven on publicly-maintained roads. I will cheerfully register the firearms I shoot on the ranges built with public funds. If there are any...


- Your experience with the car registration issue is anecdotal. There may be people out there who have always gotten tickets and even may be towed because of it. The point is, it is against the law to drive an unregistered car on public roads. It is illegal to not maintain proper registration information in your registration as well, and you can be cited for that as well. Car registration on public roads is a tax and compliance rule, and is not protected as a natural right.

Unless, of course, you are magistrate from a foreign country.

wjc
08-02-2012, 8:40 PM
registration = confiscation

But, I liked Librarian's explanation. :D

Ross
08-02-2012, 9:27 PM
Because when the goverment fears the people - there is freedom
When the people fear the goverment, there is tyranny

Untamed1972
08-03-2012, 7:53 AM
Referencing that recent FBI stat that twice as many people were murdered in 2010 by hands/feets than were murdered by rifles, then throw in there any other non-firearms related murders, like stabbings etc......if the purpose of registration is public safety & crime prevention then why are not all other possible tools of crime and murder required to be registered? Would requiring any tools which could possible be used as "burglary tools" reduce burglaries and theft? Of course it wouldn't.

The only plausible purpose for gun registration is for the Gov't to keep tabs on anyone who could possible be deemed a threat to the Gov't.