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puer2ricn
07-31-2012, 3:11 PM
Is it legal carry a handgun, without a hunting license, with hunters in the field, who have a hunting license? A buddy of mine wants to check out the hunting scene before he buys his stuff. Is it legal for him to go with us and carry, SD only, if he doesnt have a hunting license?

NoNOS67
07-31-2012, 3:15 PM
Legal or not, I wouldn't recommend it.

Tanner68
07-31-2012, 3:27 PM
I think it is possible for your friend to OC his handgun. What game will the guys be hunting? Can that handgun be used to take that game (I know you can kill a moose with a 22.) If it is an auto pistol, and not a big scoped revolver, or if the guys are hunting upland with shotguns, I think you are on safe ground. It would take an overzealous warden to cite him. What are the particulars?

CavTrooper
07-31-2012, 4:01 PM
Negative.

If you go out to the field carrying a firearm, youd better be obviously target shooting or obviously not hunting or you could get nailed. I got two buddies fighting some BS in California right now because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time carrying the wrong guns, they may lose their hunting privledges for a while and have to pay some hefty fines.

180ls1
07-31-2012, 4:05 PM
no chance id risk doing that.

ewarmour
07-31-2012, 4:10 PM
no chance id risk doing that.

Yep.

PoorRichRichard
07-31-2012, 4:21 PM
Legal or not, I wouldn't recommend it.

^this

If he's a CCW holder, he'd be ok. But other than that and he's just asking for trouble. Why would he have to be armed if he's just along for the trip?

fighter4cage
07-31-2012, 4:27 PM
Have him bring a pair of binoculars and do some spotting for you guys. He can checkout every thing he wants as it pertains to hunting. Have him leave the gun at home, no need for it.

Spyder
07-31-2012, 4:40 PM
No need for a gun in a movie theater either, I guess?

It will likely arouse suspicion if encountered by a warden, but if they are in an area where it is legal to discharge a firearm, carrying one is legal as well. If he's not hunting, he's not hunting. If you're worried about it, contact the warden in that area and tell them what you're going to be doing. You're in the bay area, what part, exactly? What county?

The Geologist
07-31-2012, 5:20 PM
Is there anything in the fish and game code to regulate that? It would kind of be like having a fishing pole that's not cast in the water. No line in water = not fishing. Guess you could tell the Warden your pseudohunting and hope they have a sense of humor :laugh:

NoNOS67
07-31-2012, 6:36 PM
Is there anything in the fish and game code to regulate that? It would kind of be like having a fishing pole that's not cast in the water. No line in water = not fishing. Guess you could tell the Warden your pseudohunting and hope they have a sense of humor :laugh:

How does the saying go? Play stupid games...

thomashoward
07-31-2012, 6:46 PM
Just buy a hunting license. Start supporting hunting and not trying to get around the law.Then you will be covered.
I would not take a non hunter with me. They have no vested interest in keeping QUIET.
I make my daughter wait in the truck with her book and a .357, She was making noise on purpose.

VFX_man
07-31-2012, 8:10 PM
A couple of notes:
I asked if my father-in-law could carry a side-arm while I was hunting at Fort Hunter Liggett. He was my non-hunting guest. I was told absolutely not! Not allowed there.

Also, if you are hunting in the Condor lead-free zone and you are carrying a sidearm along with your rifle - ya got to have solid copper lead-free ammo in your pistol or it's a big ticket.

If you are bow hunting in an archery zone/season no side arms are allowed. Same goes for muzzleloader only hunting.

So many rules :(

gibbygoo
07-31-2012, 8:32 PM
Take a fishing license and hunt for rattle snakes.

taperxz
07-31-2012, 8:42 PM
Take a fishing license and hunt for rattle snakes.

You don't need a fishing license for rattlers.

taperxz
07-31-2012, 8:46 PM
Can you go with them and pack a gun? YES, for self defense! Will the warden cite you? Probably! Can you fight it in court and win? YES! Is it worth not having a hunting license? NO. You will be seen as POSSIBLY engaging in the act of hunting. License is $ 42.00. Gas to the court house even if you win? Ridiculous!

IVC
07-31-2012, 9:58 PM
Can you go with them and pack a gun? YES, for self defense! Will the warden cite you? Probably! Can you fight it in court and win? YES! Is it worth not having a hunting license? NO. You will be seen as POSSIBLY engaging in the act of hunting. License is $ 42.00. Gas to the court house even if you win? Ridiculous!

Hear, hear.

There is legal and there is smart. Stive for both and you will prosper...

Cougar125
07-31-2012, 11:33 PM
Can you legally carry a loaded handgun outside of incorporated city limits in plain view? Yes. I would check out the Open Carry section of the forum or opencarry.org for more information on the laws regarding it, but to answer your question, YES.

Fireguy
08-01-2012, 12:14 AM
Isn't there something in the regs that if you walk with a hunter you are involved in the act of hunting? If I remember correctly they had an issue on Wild Justice where an unarmed guy was just walking with his buddy and got a ticket.

mif_slim
08-01-2012, 5:56 AM
No, you can walk with them, you just don't want to carry anything that looks like your going to hunt.

I had a friend who got cited carrying a slug shell in his backpack who wasn't even hunting but walking with his friend who was hunting. They said they were there for big game when they didn't have any big game tag...

So, I wouldn't do it if I were your FIL..just be on the safe side.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 5:56 AM
Is it legal carry a handgun, without a hunting license, with hunters in the field, who have a hunting license? A buddy of mine wants to check out the hunting scene before he buys his stuff. Is it legal for him to go with us and carry, SD only, if he doesnt have a hunting license?

Yes your buddy would be legal to carry a handgun or long gun. Technically he's just a hiker. If it is during the bow season he could technically carry but thats pretty sketchy (wouldn't recommed it) and would most likely cause a problem. Tell him not to carry. I would not recommend him to carry any long gun or centerfire type. As for a handgun use common sense, don't be carrying one with a scope etc. That definitely would raise suspicion.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for your buddy to buy a hunting license but the hunting license doesn't do anything for you regarding the taking of animals. You would also need to buy an upland game stamp or deer/bear/bobcat etc based upon whatever you guys were hunting at the time. I say save the money until he's sure he wants to get into it.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 6:00 AM
Isn't there something in the regs that if you walk with a hunter you are involved in the act of hunting? If I remember correctly they had an issue on Wild Justice where an unarmed guy was just walking with his buddy and got a ticket.

I think your talking about the two kids in the white ford that were shooting rabbits at night with a 22LR. Neither of them had a hunting license or stamps. One guy claimed he did all the shooting. The warden gave the kids a scare talk to try to get them to get on the straight and narrow. The one kid did end up getting sighted for a few offenses. I don't think the the other kid got anything.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 6:22 AM
A couple of notes:
I asked if my father-in-law could carry a side-arm while I was hunting at Fort Hunter Liggett. He was my non-hunting guest. I was told absolutely not! Not allowed there.

Also, if you are hunting in the Condor lead-free zone and you are carrying a sidearm along with your rifle - ya got to have solid copper lead-free ammo in your pistol or it's a big ticket.

If you are bow hunting in an archery zone/season no side arms are allowed. Same goes for muzzleloader only hunting.

So many rules :(

Millitary bases have their own set of rules to comply with, along with the CA DFG rules.

You only need non lead ammo for your handgun if your are using that handgun for the purpose of hunting game. Only the tool that is used for the taking of game is required to use non lead ammo.

As for the bow portion of your comment, hikers are aloud to carry firearms.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 7:04 AM
Yes your buddy would be legal to carry a handgun or long gun. Technically he's just a hiker. If it is during the bow season he could technically carry but thats pretty sketchy (wouldn't recommed it) and would most likely cause a problem. Tell him not to carry. I would not recommend him to carry any long gun or centerfire type. As for a handgun use common sense, don't be carrying one with a scope etc. That definitely would raise suspicion.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for your buddy to buy a hunting license but the hunting license doesn't do anything for you regarding the taking of animals. You would also need to buy an upland game stamp or deer/bear/bobcat etc based upon whatever you guys were hunting at the time. I say save the money until he's sure he wants to get into it.

Excuse me and welcome to CGN :)

BUT, what kind of BS are you trying to spread? Just asking.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 7:21 AM
Excuse me and welcome to CGN :)

BUT, what kind of BS are you trying to spread? Just asking.

Thanks for the welcome and hello to you sir.

What does purchasing just the hunting license accomplish?? Don't you think at that point (just having the license) then a warden could site him for not having the proper tags/stamps. The license and hunter safety is an avenue in which you go through to purchase tags/stamps to enable a hunter to legally hunt game animals in the state. You cannot do one without any of the others. Am I wrong? And seeing as he's not taking any game (strictly a hiker viewing wildlife), why would he need any of the previous items?

NytWolf
08-01-2012, 7:30 AM
Can you go with them and pack a gun? YES, for self defense! Will the warden cite you? Probably! Can you fight it in court and win? YES! Is it worth not having a hunting license? NO. You will be seen as POSSIBLY engaging in the act of hunting. License is $ 42.00. Gas to the court house even if you win? Ridiculous!

^^^ This.

Handgun, maybe. Rifle or shotgun, definitely NO.

Bottom line, it all comes to your attitude. If you show you are naive, you will be written up. If you are arrogant, you will be written up. Cooperate, you will be okay.

Shoot-it
08-01-2012, 7:31 AM
Have him bring a pair of binoculars and do some spotting for you guys. He can checkout every thing he wants as it pertains to hunting. Have him leave the gun at home, no need for it.

He can not aid in hunting either spotting game or doing drives etc.

Rusty_Buckhorn
08-01-2012, 7:34 AM
What does purchasing just the hunting license accomplish?? Don't you think at that point (just having the license) then a warden could site him for not having the proper tags/stamps.
well, having that license gives you the right to legally hunt for anything that does not require a tag or stamp, coyotes, squirrels, ect.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 7:56 AM
well, having that license gives you the right to legally hunt for anything that does not require a tag or stamp, coyotes, squirrels, ect.

First off your pulling pieces of my statement out of context. Yes your correct as those are non game animals. However, going back to the OP quesiton, I advised not to carry a long gun. Therefore if he does take a long gun, he could be viewed as hunting along side his buddy.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 8:02 AM
He can not aid in hunting either spotting game or doing drives etc.

Could you point me to the spot in the regs where you found that. I'm searching and not able to find it. I'm aware of the drive thing with motor vehicles though.

drutledge79
08-01-2012, 9:02 AM
Can you go with them and pack a gun? YES, for self defense! Will the warden cite you? Probably! Can you fight it in court and win? YES! Is it worth not having a hunting license? NO. You will be seen as POSSIBLY engaging in the act of hunting. License is $ 42.00. Gas to the court house even if you win? Ridiculous!

This is the best advice I've seen in this thread.

You can get all detailed and upset over stuff but the most reasonable answer is this:

If a non-hunter wants to join hunters as an observer then don't bring a damn gun. It looks like you're hunting. Even a pistol. If you want to get into semantics and legalities w/ the game warden then have fun with that.

Note: there is a real argument to be made than an unarmed person accompanying licensed hunters in the act of hunting is himself "hunting." This is written in the regs and so even an unarmed person could be held by these standards. There are special notes about this in the "lottery" hunts. People who draw the special deer tags are not allowed any help and (I think) elk and bighorn sheep tags are allowed one unarmed "assistant."

If it was my friend I'd tell them to do hunter safety and get the license. It's pretty painless if someone is guiding you through the process.

ns3v3n
08-01-2012, 9:08 AM
Can you go with them and pack a gun? YES, for self defense! Will the warden cite you? Probably! Can you fight it in court and win? YES! Is it worth not having a hunting license? NO. You will be seen as POSSIBLY engaging in the act of hunting. License is $ 42.00. Gas to the court house even if you win? Ridiculous!

I dont think it's the $42 is the reason one wouldn't pay for a hunting license, it's the 14 hours of instruction you need to take to get the Hunter Ed cert required to get the license.

Rusty_Buckhorn
08-01-2012, 9:22 AM
First off your pulling pieces of my statement out of context. Yes your correct as those are non game animals. However, going back to the OP quesiton, I advised not to carry a long gun. Therefore if he does take a long gun, he could be viewed as hunting along side his buddy.
the OP's question had nothing to do with long guns or scopes, and regardless, my response to your post would be the same.


What does purchasing just the hunting license accomplish?? Don't you think at that point (just having the license) then a warden could site him for not having the proper tags/stamps. The license and hunter safety is an avenue in which you go through to purchase tags/stamps to enable a hunter to legally hunt game animals in the state. You cannot do one without any of the others. Am I wrong? And seeing as he's not taking any game (strictly a hiker viewing wildlife), why would he need any of the previous items?
you asked if you were wrong, yes, you are, as I stated in my post above. There is game, pretty much statewide, that you can hunt without any tags or stamps. So, having only a license does give you the right to carry a pistol or a long gun while accompanying someone who is deer hunt/bear/pig hunting. Doing this during archery will probably get you a ticket, though, and you just might lose in court. Doing this during rifle season will still get you harassed, and might get you a ticket, but it's much more beatable in court.

drutledge79
08-01-2012, 9:27 AM
Could you point me to the spot in the regs where you found that. I'm searching and not able to find it. I'm aware of the drive thing with motor vehicles though.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dfg.ca.gov%2Fwildlife%2Fhunti ng%2Felk%2Ftule%2Fdocs%2Fgrizzlyisland%2F12Grizzly Island.pdf&ei=6mUZUNS5O-WEjALal4HYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGa29TGIQWKIgQWLOzEXh1P2hsX5g&sig2=Xyq28Iq3fwsQXtcYXIMWuA

This link refers to the rule about the "one non-hunter" rule for Elk I saw. It is "zero" non-hunters for the special deer hunts. I can't find where it said it, though. I spoke to them on the phone and they said anyone with you would be considered "hunting"... but this was always in reference to the highly-sought hunts -- not regular ole stuff. Sorry I can't be more detailed.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 9:34 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dfg.ca.gov%2Fwildlife%2Fhunti ng%2Felk%2Ftule%2Fdocs%2Fgrizzlyisland%2F12Grizzly Island.pdf&ei=6mUZUNS5O-WEjALal4HYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGa29TGIQWKIgQWLOzEXh1P2hsX5g&sig2=Xyq28Iq3fwsQXtcYXIMWuA

This link refers to the rule about the "one non-hunter" rule for Elk I saw. It is "zero" non-hunters for the special deer hunts. I can't find where it said it, though. I spoke to them on the phone and they said anyone with you would be considered "hunting"... but this was always in reference to the highly-sought hunts -- not regular ole stuff. Sorry I can't be more detailed.

Thank you for sending the link. As would be expected any special hunting oportunity will come with special circumstances. Thanks though.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 9:37 AM
I would also like to point out that with a Hunting license the "tag a longs" would also be allowed to legally conceal carry a pistol. Just another advantage of having a license.

If the tag a longs were smart, they would have a hunting license, a concealed pistol and a camera for pics or videos of the hunt. It would then be obvious that the tag a longs are there to either film or take pics of the hunt.;) A warden would have no problem with this scenario. IMHO Heck, what else are they doing?

J.O.
08-01-2012, 9:49 AM
the OP's question had nothing to do with long guns or scopes, and regardless, my response to your post would be the same.


you asked if you were wrong, yes, you are, as I stated in my post above. There is game, pretty much statewide, that you can hunt without any tags or stamps. So, having only a license does give you the right to carry a pistol or a long gun while accompanying someone who is deer hunt/bear/pig hunting. Doing this during archery will probably get you a ticket, though, and you just might lose in court. Doing this during rifle season will still get you harassed, and might get you a ticket, but it's much more beatable in court.

Rusty, my intent was to cover all bases that the OP could possibly think might be okay based upon his type of questioning. I also clarified that with the notation to make sure to have a tag/stamp for whatever they were chasing at the time.

Wouldn't you agree that most hunters hunt "game animals"? With that thought, I figured he would be involved with his buddy chasing a game animal. Of course there is always special circumstances where something might not be exact. I went off what I view as the norm. You have the right to carry a firearm regardless if you have a hunting license or not. Hikers do it all the time. In this day in age, I would never recommend anyone enter a forest etc without some form of protection. I 've been shot at when I have tripped into a pot garden. Talk about unsafe and glad I was armed.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 9:55 AM
I would also like to point out that with a Hunting license the "tag a longs" would also be allowed to legally conceal carry a pistol. Just another advantage of having a license.

If the tag a longs were smart, they would have a hunting license, a concealed pistol and a camera for pics or videos of the hunt. It would then be obvious that the tag a longs are there to either film or take pics of the hunt.;) A warden would have no problem with this scenario. IMHO Heck, what else are they doing?

Your talking about Pc 12027(g). States while engaged in hunting or coming to or going from. So at this point the tag along needs to decide is he actively hunting, a hiker (open carry), or unloaded going to or coming from the activity.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/2/s12027
(g)Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:09 AM
Your talking about Pc 12027(g). States while engaged in hunting or coming to or going from. So at this point the tag along needs to decide is he actively hunting, a hiker (open carry), or unloaded going to or coming from the activity.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/2/s12027
(g)Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

The person doesn't need to decide to hunt until he pulls the trigger. coyote, jack rabbit, it doesn't matter.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:20 AM
Rusty, my intent was to cover all bases that the OP could possibly think might be okay based upon his type of questioning. I also clarified that with the notation to make sure to have a tag/stamp for whatever they were chasing at the time.

Wouldn't you agree that most hunters hunt "game animals"? With that thought, I figured he would be involved with his buddy chasing a game animal. Of course there is always special circumstances where something might not be exact. I went off what I view as the norm. You have the right to carry a firearm regardless if you have a hunting license or not. Hikers do it all the time. In this day in age, I would never recommend anyone enter a forest etc without some form of protection. I 've been shot at when I have tripped into a pot garden. Talk about unsafe and glad I was armed.

I don't believe you^^^ I live in pot central! If they shot at you, you would be dead. Those guys don't fire warning shots. It brings LE back to the spot they are growing.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:25 AM
I dont think it's the $42 is the reason one wouldn't pay for a hunting license, it's the 14 hours of instruction you need to take to get the Hunter Ed cert required to get the license.

If you're not willing to take hunter safety "ONCE" in your life time, and have no will to get a hunting license, why go on a hunt? Stay back at camp and cough cough cook and clean for the hunters and tuck them in at night:rolleyes:

J.O.
08-01-2012, 10:29 AM
I don't believe you^^^ I live in pot central! If they shot at you, you would be dead. Those guys don't fire warning shots. It brings LE back to the spot they are growing.

Okay don't believe me. Sounds good. Regardless, to the OP good luck out there and be safe.

NoNOS67
08-01-2012, 10:31 AM
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=84614029606+3+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

86. "Take" means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill.

The "pursue" part has the potential to get you in trouble. I like the camera/video idea.

Also, hunter safety is a good idea for ANYONE that's going to be out there. Lots of good information.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:32 AM
Okay don't believe me. Sounds good. And I don't believe it was a warning shot when the dirts flying up next to me. Regardless, to the OP good luck out there and be safe.

So what did LE do when you reported that A: you told them you found a pot garden. and B: when you told them that someone tried to kill you with a firearm defending that pot garden?:confused:

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 10:33 AM
You only need non lead ammo for your handgun if your are using that handgun for the purpose of hunting game. Only the tool that is used for the taking of game is required to use non lead ammo.

Not sure where you are getting your information . . .

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

"If you hunt in this area, you will be required to use nonlead projectiles to hunt big-game and non-game species beginning July 1, 2008. In addition, while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition. "

So even if you tried to claim the firearm is for self protection . . . Don't think they would buy that you were hunting AND hiking - If you are hunting with a rifle or bow AND have a side-arm you are hunting, not hiking.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 10:36 AM
So what did LE do when you reported that A: you told them you found a pot garden. and B: when you told them that someone tried to kill you with a firearm defending that pot garden?:confused:

Didn't report it. Ran like the wind. I wasn't wearing a facemask at the time. Not sure if they saw my face (locals etc). Never been back.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:38 AM
Didn't report it. Ran like the wind. I wasn't wearing a facemask at the time. Not sure if they saw my face (locals etc). Never been back.

Uh ha, keep diggin. LOL

J.O.
08-01-2012, 10:41 AM
Not sure where you are getting your information . . .

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

"If you hunt in this area, you will be required to use nonlead projectiles to hunt big-game and non-game species beginning July 1, 2008. In addition, while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition. "

So even if you tried to claim the firearm is for self protection . . . Don't think they would buy that you were hunting AND hiking - If you are hunting with a rifle or bow AND have a side-arm you are hunting, not hiking.

Exactly as what you posted. You must use non lead projectiles to hunt game species. I dont' hunt with a handgun. Only long guns and bow. My handgun is for personal protection. Therefore the no lead requirement does not extend to my non hunting handgun. Heck to my knowledge even target shooting you don't have to use non lead ammo. Its only during the act of taking a game/non game that you are required to comply.

J.O.
08-01-2012, 10:43 AM
Uh ha, keep diggin. LOL

You crack me up. I come on here trying to help the op and I post specific links and info. You come on here and and post info and no backup and are intentionally attacking me and field situations I've encountered. I'm done with this issue. I've been questioned by wardens and I know my ****. No tickets, no arrests. I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Good luck in the field bud. Good day.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:44 AM
Exactly as what you posted. You must use lead projectiles to hunt game species. I dont' hunt with a handgun. Only long guns and bow. My handgun is for personal protection. Therefore the no lead requirement does not extend to my non hunting handgun. Heck to my knowledge even target shooting you don't have to use non lead ammo. Its only during the act of taking a game/non game that you are required to comply.

Are you saying your side arm that you use when hunting in the condor zone does not have copper bullets in it? Regardless of what you are using the side arm for, or what you think you are using it for, is still considered a legal method of take. Therefore, it must have copper in it while you hunt.

To think otherwise is, well, you know

mcmikeblues7
08-01-2012, 10:45 AM
Exactly as what you posted. You must use lead projectiles to hunt game species. I dont' hunt with a handgun. Only long guns and bow. My handgun is for personal protection. Therefore the no lead requirement does not extend to my non hunting handgun. Heck to my knowledge even target shooting you don't have to use non lead ammo. Its only during the act of taking a game/non game that you are required to comply.

that is true, BUT, a game warden still has the right to give you a ticket if that handgun is legal take for the game you are hunting. I doubt he/she will, and you could definitely fight it in court, but as someone before stated that costs money as well.

Rusty_Buckhorn
08-01-2012, 10:45 AM
Wouldn't you agree that most hunters hunt "game animals"? With that thought, I figured he would be involved with his buddy chasing a game animal. Of course there is always special circumstances where something might not be exact. I went off what I view as the norm.

Gotcha, but normal varies from person to person. Very normal/common for me to have someone armed, tagging a long with me(with only a license, no tags) to shoot the occasional coyote and whatnot while I'm deer/pig hunting. Another set of eyes on the hills never hurts, and an extra pair of legs to help drag something back to the truck is always good.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 10:46 AM
You crack me up. I come on here trying to help the op and I post specific links and info. You come on here and and post info and no backup and are intentionally attacking me. Good luck in the field bud. Good day.

NO! your information simply has many flaws in it. Oh, i don't need luck in the field. I'm very proficient at my skill;)

J.O.
08-01-2012, 10:47 AM
Gotcha, but normal varies from person to person. Very normal/common for me to have someone armed, tagging a long with me(with only a license, no tags) to shoot the occasional coyote and whatnot while I'm deer/pig hunting. Another set of eyes on the hills never hurts, and an extra pair of legs to help drag something back to the truck is always good.

Cool deal. Good luck to ya!

bigboarstopper
08-01-2012, 10:56 AM
It's not about whats leagal. It's about wether the non hunter will recieve a citation. If the non hunter has a weapon the warden may give a citation wether its legal or not. Wardens are notorious for giving stupid or excessive citations.

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 10:59 AM
Exactly as what you posted. You must use lead projectiles to hunt game species. I dont' hunt with a handgun. Only long guns and bow. My handgun is for personal protection. Therefore the no lead requirement does not extend to my non hunting handgun. Heck to my knowledge even target shooting you don't have to use non lead ammo. Its only during the act of taking a game/non game that you are required to comply.


"may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition"

I was personally in a gun shop when 2 hunters came in asking for lead free ammo for their hand-guns. They said that they had just gotten a ticket for having non-lead ammo in their side-arm while hunting. The warden pointed out the above law. No lead ammo in the Condor zone while you are hunting EVEN if that weapon is not being used to hunt.

Here is an older calguns thread where this was discussed.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=384564

J.O.
08-01-2012, 11:12 AM
"may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition"

I was personally in a gun shop when 2 hunters came in asking for lead free ammo for their hand-guns. They said that they had just gotten a ticket for having non-lead ammo in their side-arm while hunting. The warden pointed out the above law. No lead ammo in the Condor zone while you are hunting EVEN if that weapon is not being used to hunt.

Here is an older calguns thread where this was discussed.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=384564

Page 1 for when it applies ie firearm doing the hunting and page three for firearms for personal protection.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/LeadInformation.pdf

It still only applies to the firearm doing the "taking". Either way, sounds like we differ in opinion and I'm cool with that. Takes all kinds.

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 11:16 AM
Also, Here is a link to a page that shows a petition to CA DFG. In the letter that is referenced, check out page 7 section C.

If there was Not an issue, why would the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the California Rifle and Pistol Association (CRPA) Foundation be filing a pre-litigation Petition?

http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/california-agency-publications/43-california-code-of-regulations/910-nracrpa-foundation-legal-action-project-lawyers-submit-pre-litigation-petition-for-review-of-fish-a-game-hunting-regulations-that-infringe-on-self-defense-rights.html

J.O.
08-01-2012, 11:26 AM
Also, Here is a link to a page that shows a petition to CA DFG. In the letter that is referenced, check out page 7 section C.

If there was Not an issue, why would the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the California Rifle and Pistol Association (CRPA) Foundation be filing a pre-litigation Petition?

http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/california-agency-publications/43-california-code-of-regulations/910-nracrpa-foundation-legal-action-project-lawyers-submit-pre-litigation-petition-for-review-of-fish-a-game-hunting-regulations-that-infringe-on-self-defense-rights.html

I agree the issue is a grey area that needs to be better clarified.

dirtracer24
08-01-2012, 11:28 AM
Where can I buy lead free arrows? Also I need a good lead free knife. Do they sell these items at bass pro shop.
I totally believe the J.O. Stumbled apon a pot garden, I'll even take the bait that he was "shot at" and lived to tell the tale. But he never reported it. Major case of bullstuff.

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 11:35 AM
Page 1 for when it applies ie firearm doing the hunting and page three for firearms for personal protection.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/LeadInformation.pdf

It still only applies to the firearm doing the "taking". Either way, sounds like we differ in opinion and I'm cool with that. Takes all kinds.


So call this number: 1-831-649-2870 and ask for the Warden on Call.

I just spoke to him and he confirmed what I had stated - no lead ammo in possession in Condor zone while hunting AND no side-arm allowed while Archery hunting.

Cheers!

J.O.
08-01-2012, 12:17 PM
No ones answering called 5 times. Asked to talk to who is in charge of managing the use of lead free ammo requirements. Had to a leave a voicemail for a Rocky Thompson senior wildlife official. Guess we'll see. They're usually pretty quick to return calls.

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 12:26 PM
No ones answering called 5 times. Asked to talk to who is in charge of managing the use of lead free ammo requirements. Had to a leave a voicemail for a Rocky Thompson senior wildlife official. Guess we'll see. They're usually pretty quick to return calls.

Sean was the warden I spoke to.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 12:27 PM
No ones answering called 5 times. Asked to talk to who is in charge of managing the use of lead free ammo requirements. Had to a leave a voicemail for a Rocky Thompson senior wildlife official. Guess we'll see. They're usually pretty quick to return calls.

You may not possess lead ammo of any type when "engaging in the sport take of mammals" in the condor zone.

Your insistence of being ignorant of the laws of F&G is why your credibility here is suspect.

Its a good thing to not take legal advice from an LEO/warden. Its a bad thing to not understand the regulations set forth by the Fish and Game Commission. Clearly "no lead ammo in your possession" is pretty basic to understand.

NoNOS67
08-01-2012, 12:29 PM
Clearly "no lead ammo in your possession" is pretty basic to understand.

For some of us, yes. ;)

J.O.
08-01-2012, 12:32 PM
You may not possess lead ammo of any type when "engaging in the sport take of mammals" in the condor zone.

Your insistence of being ignorant of the laws of F&G is why your credibility here is suspect.

Its a good thing to not take legal advice from an LEO/warden. Its a bad thing to not understand the regulations set forth by the Fish and Game Commission. Clearly "no lead ammo in your possession" is pretty basic to understand.

Look bud, I'm not affraid to say I was wrong if I'm wrong. Heck you can't be right all the time. And I'd be glad to learn something as is the reason why I joined this forum. I did allot of homework and have called before. Interpretations of the requirements is a grey area as so clarified by VFX man's post earlier with the letter. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. But your constant badgering is just plain unnessary. I'm threw exchanging words with yourself.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 12:36 PM
Look bud, I'm not affraid to say I was wrong if I'm wrong. Heck you can't be right all the time. And I'd be glad to learn something as is the reason why I joined this forum. I did allot of homework and have called before. Interpretations of the requirements is a grey area. As is this grey area. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. But your constant badgering is just plain unnessary. I'm threw exchanging words with yourself.

REALLY? If you called so much and did a lot of homework, you wouldn't be trying to call F&G right now to find out, now would you? How many opinions and confirmations do you want?

This law is NOT a grey area! And my name is not bud.

Rusty_Buckhorn
08-01-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm threw exchanging words with yourself.

but arguing is sooooo much more entertaining ;)

and, I side with tape on this one. Been told by a few wardens, and the captain for this area.... no lead on your person while hunting in the condor zones,even 1 random lead bullet in your pack for another caliber is a ticket. Also, I have 2 friends who got cited for having lead in their vehicle while leaving an area they were deer hunting. Both lost the fight and paid fines.

taperxz
08-01-2012, 12:38 PM
Look bud, I'm not affraid to say I was wrong if I'm wrong. Heck you can't be right all the time. And I'd be glad to learn something as is the reason why I joined this forum. I did allot of homework and have called before. Interpretations of the requirements is a grey area as so clarified by VFX man's post earlier with the letter. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. But your constant badgering is just plain unnessary. I'm threw exchanging words with yourself.

Your right! I'm not right all the time. I thought i was wrong once but i was mistaken.:p

taperxz
08-01-2012, 12:41 PM
but arguing is sooooo much more entertaining ;)



Does anyone really think we sit at our computers on the hunt forum to be serious? :p

drutledge79
08-01-2012, 1:29 PM
In addition, while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition.

This is clear. No lead ammunition + firearm capable of firing it in possession if you're hunting an animal that requires non-lead ammunition. Yes, there are exceptions for target shooting, self-defense and rim fire cartridges for small game but those don't overrule this statement.

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 1:50 PM
If you are looking for lead free ammo - here is the link for the approved.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/certifiedammo.html

I decided to "bite the bullet" and get it for most everything I have. Figure it's only a matter of time until they push it on everyone and everyplace. :rolleyes::o:(:mad:

That way it's a definite non-issue if I'm in the land of the former dead mammoth eaters. ;) I do carry the original boxes with me while hunting, hopefully to eliminate any "confusion" on the Wardens part.

lead free in: 22LR, .45ACP, .30-06, .50 and 12 ga . . . figure I don't need it in 9mm . . . why use 3 bullets when 1 .45ACP will do ;)

Cheers!

jm13690
08-01-2012, 3:34 PM
I say if someone is not hunting they do not need a firearm, and I am going to tell you a warden will say the same. They nab people all the time for that one.

toby
08-01-2012, 3:43 PM
I don't always drink Beer .............but when I do I prefer Tecate Light!

Shoot-it
08-01-2012, 4:01 PM
but arguing is sooooo much more entertaining ;)

and, I side with tape on this one. Been told by a few wardens, and the captain for this area.... no lead on your person while hunting in the condor zones,even 1 random lead bullet in your pack for another caliber is a ticket. Also, I have 2 friends who got cited for having lead in their vehicle while leaving an area they were deer hunting. Both lost the fight and paid fines.
The random lead bullet from another gun is not a ticket if you don't have that gun with you or in your truck .I asked the local warden on that one. They must have has lead bullets to their hunting rifle .
.....

VFX_man
08-01-2012, 4:16 PM
I don't always drink Beer .............but when I do I prefer Tecate Light!

LOL

m98
08-02-2012, 3:13 AM
I would also like to point out that with a Hunting license the "tag a longs" would also be allowed to legally conceal carry a pistol. Just another advantage of having a license.

If the tag a longs were smart, they would have a hunting license, a concealed pistol and a camera for pics or videos of the hunt. It would then be obvious that the tag a longs are there to either film or take pics of the hunt.;) A warden would have no problem with this scenario. IMHO Heck, what else are they doing?


^^^^this. Poor mans ccw. If you dont wanna ccw then just loc.

toby
08-02-2012, 4:37 AM
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

Shoot-it
08-02-2012, 6:34 AM
I get anal itch when i am hunting.

Rusty_Buckhorn
08-02-2012, 9:00 AM
I get anal itch when i am hunting.



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=162256&stc=1&d=1343926378

J.O.
08-02-2012, 2:28 PM
Sean was the warden I spoke to.

Sorry it took me so long VFX Man but finally got to the bottom of it.

So I left voicemails for two of the three senior wildlife officials/biologists. In the voicemail I sited all my documentation line by line and left my number. I've tried calling them throughout the day but no calls back. At this point the lady knows who I am because I keep calling.

Finally I call again and now I'm transfered to a Captain Don kelly who is in charge of monterey county. Seemed like a pretty well informed guy. He new exactly what I was citing. He told me yes it is legal for me to carry my "self defense sidearm without leadfree ammo". That in the case of a self defense scenario I would be legal to discharge. But that if I ever use it to take down a "hunted animal" not in self defense that I would be violating the law. He used the example of finishing off an animal that had been downed with a legal non lead bullet with a lead bullet from your "self defense side arm". Said that, that would be illegal. I said no problem, totally agree with you. He said I'll probably be questioned so be prepared. Essentially the same data I gave him, give to the warden.

Once again, sorry it took me so long. I was trying.

VFX_man
08-02-2012, 2:54 PM
Sorry it took me so long VFX Man but finally got to the bottom of it.

So I left voicemails for two of the three senior wildlife officials/biologists. In the voicemail I sited all my documentation line by line and left my number. I've tried calling them throughout the day but no calls back. At this point the lady knows who I am because I keep calling.

Finally I call again and now I'm transfered to a Captain Don kelly who is in charge of monterey county. Seemed like a pretty well informed guy. He new exactly what I was citing. He told me yes it is legal for me to carry my "self defense sidearm without leadfree ammo". That in the case of a self defense scenario I would be legal to discharge. But that if I ever use it to take down a "hunted animal" not in self defense that I would be violating the law. He used the example of finishing off an animal that had been downed with a legal non lead bullet with a lead bullet from your "self defense side arm". Said that, that would be illegal. I said no problem, totally agree with you. He said I'll probably be questioned so be prepared. Essentially the same data I gave him, give to the warden.

Once again, sorry it took me so long. I was trying.

Thanks for the follow-up . . . Personally, I'd keep all documentation and a record of this conversation . . . just in case.

For me, I'll still pack lead-free since I've got it. Don't have the time or need for any hassles ;)

Cheers!

portegee
08-02-2012, 3:18 PM
(c) Pistols and revolvers using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take deer, bear, and wild pigs.

(h) Methods of take within the California condor range. Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to use or possess projectiles containing more than one percent lead by weight while taking or attempting to take any big game (as defined in Section 350, Title 14, CCR) in those areas described in Section 3004.5, Fish and Game Code. (1) Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted in subsection 353(h) and a firearm capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take any big game within the area described in subsection 353(h). The possession of a projectile containing lead in excess of the amount allowed in subsection 353(h) without possessing a firearm capable of firing the projectile is not a violation of this section.

I don't see anything in the regs that says a single thing about the firearm used to take the game. It does clearly state that possession of non compliant ammo and a firearm capable of discharging said ammo is a violation while you are taking or attempting to take large game. There is no grey area here, if you are taking, or attempting to take (hunting) you can not have lead ammo and a firearm that can shoot that ammo.

Manolito
08-02-2012, 3:47 PM
251.1. Harassment of Animals.

Except as otherwise authorized in these regulations or in the Fish and Game Code, no person shall harass, herd or drive any game or nongame bird or mammal or furbearing mammal. For the purposes of this section, harass is defined as an intentional act which disrupts an animal's normal behavior patterns, which includes, but is not limited to, breeding, feeding or sheltering. This section does not apply to a landowner or tenant who drives or herds birds or mammals for the purpose of preventing damage to private or public property, including aquaculture and agriculture crops.
My guess and I am not a warden is that they would and could charge the non licensed person under this section.

taperxz
08-02-2012, 4:21 PM
HMM, so did the warden ask where you would be hunting? He will probably be there to cite you. It doesn't matter what the warden says or thinks! What matters is what DA will be reading the law as noted below and how they interpret it. Never NEVER get legal advice from an LEO! They are not your friends (when in uniform) and they certainly are not your lawyers.

Why don't you just get copper for your side arm anyway??:shrug: Its cheaper than dealing with the law. It will kill in self defense you know. Some folks:rolleyes:


Sorry it took me so long VFX Man but finally got to the bottom of it.

So I left voicemails for two of the three senior wildlife officials/biologists. In the voicemail I sited all my documentation line by line and left my number. I've tried calling them throughout the day but no calls back. At this point the lady knows who I am because I keep calling.

Finally I call again and now I'm transfered to a Captain Don kelly who is in charge of monterey county. Seemed like a pretty well informed guy. He new exactly what I was citing. He told me yes it is legal for me to carry my "self defense sidearm without leadfree ammo". That in the case of a self defense scenario I would be legal to discharge. But that if I ever use it to take down a "hunted animal" not in self defense that I would be violating the law. He used the example of finishing off an animal that had been downed with a legal non lead bullet with a lead bullet from your "self defense side arm". Said that, that would be illegal. I said no problem, totally agree with you. He said I'll probably be questioned so be prepared. Essentially the same data I gave him, give to the warden.

Once again, sorry it took me so long. I was trying.

(c) Pistols and revolvers using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take deer, bear, and wild pigs.

(h) Methods of take within the California condor range. Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to use or possess projectiles containing more than one percent lead by weight while taking or attempting to take any big game (as defined in Section 350, Title 14, CCR) in those areas described in Section 3004.5, Fish and Game Code. (1) Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted in subsection 353(h) and a firearm capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take any big game within the area described in subsection 353(h). The possession of a projectile containing lead in excess of the amount allowed in subsection 353(h) without possessing a firearm capable of firing the projectile is not a violation of this section.

I don't see anything in the regs that says a single thing about the firearm used to take the game. It does clearly state that possession of non compliant ammo and a firearm capable of discharging said ammo is a violation while you are taking or attempting to take large game. There is no grey area here, if you are taking, or attempting to take (hunting) you can not have lead ammo and a firearm that can shoot that ammo.

Shoot-it
08-02-2012, 4:29 PM
The question is about a non hunter just hiker so lead in a side arm will not matter.

J.O.
08-02-2012, 5:25 PM
251.1. Harassment of Animals.

Except as otherwise authorized in these regulations or in the Fish and Game Code, no person shall harass, herd or drive any game or nongame bird or mammal or furbearing mammal. For the purposes of this section, harass is defined as an intentional act which disrupts an animal's normal behavior patterns, which includes, but is not limited to, breeding, feeding or sheltering. This section does not apply to a landowner or tenant who drives or herds birds or mammals for the purpose of preventing damage to private or public property, including aquaculture and agriculture crops.
My guess and I am not a warden is that they would and could charge the non licensed person under this section.

Great find. Thank you

cruisedub
08-02-2012, 8:16 PM
Have him bring a pair of binoculars and do some spotting for you guys. He can checkout every thing he wants as it pertains to hunting. Have him leave the gun at home, no need for it.

If i remember correctly doing this is classed as hunting because you are helping someone to take game and can be classed as hunting without a license

motorwerks
08-02-2012, 10:34 PM
^this

Why would he have to be armed if he's just along for the trip?

Really?

watch this...

http://www.nralifeofduty.tv/#/patriotprofiles/video/662

I dont go into the woods, or even the desert to explore without a handgun. Nope no way.

Habid
08-03-2012, 12:21 AM
Why is everyone so worked up about this, just have your buddy take the class it's 10hrs and only $15-20, then he can pay for the hunting licence if he choose to continue, $42.00 is all it takes and your good to go. No risky moves or being worried about getting caught once you get your licence.