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ipser
07-30-2012, 9:17 AM
...

To understand why this might happen, you need to understand a technology called 3D printing.

So, can you print a gun? Yep, you can and that’s exactly what somebody with the alias “HaveBlue” did.

To be accurate, HaveBlue didn’t print an entire gun, he printed a “receiver” for an AR-15 (better known as the military’s M16) at a cost of about $30 worth of materials.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

Please do not post whole articles - see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=363956

We are still in the "one (short) paragraph and a link is low-risk." mode, despite appropriate legal action against the major risk provider. Righthaven is not the only offender…

See the stickies http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=394912

// Librarian

skyscraper
07-30-2012, 9:19 AM
Ban 80% receivers quick!

Coded-Dude
07-30-2012, 9:32 AM
What’s particularly worrisome is that the capability to print metal and ceramic parts will appear in low end printers in the next few years making it feasible to print an entire gun and that will be when gun control becomes a totally different problem.


is this guy trying to say CNC machines will be so cheap that anyone will be able to buy and manufacture firearms a lot cheaper than buying an company manufactured firearm?

Bhobbs
07-30-2012, 9:34 AM
This argument is invalid because law abiding people will still follow the law whether or not they have the ability to print illegal firearms in their basement.

ipser
07-30-2012, 9:37 AM
is this guy trying to say CNC machines will be so cheap that anyone will be able to buy and manufacture firearms a lot cheaper than buying an company manufactured firearm?

He's not talking about CNC machines but 3D printers but probably the distinction between them will blurr. And his concern is not so much cost, presumably it will always be cheaper to produce quality firearms in a factory, but simply the impossibility of controling guns at that point or anywhere along the retail chain. It might always cost more for inferior quality to "print" guns but that will be sufficient to render any gun control law impotent.

fullrearview
07-30-2012, 9:41 AM
Wow... Looks pretty cool.


i6Px6RSL9Ac

ipser
07-30-2012, 9:42 AM
This argument is invalid because law abiding people will still follow the law whether or not they have the ability to print illegal firearms in their basement.
That depends on the purpose of gun control. If gun control is aimed at the law abiding, perhaps. But it's stated goal is to keep guns out of wicked hands and they are generally not law abiding and printing guns will be the end of that.

(Even if printing barrels will always remain impossible it still nullifies the ability to control guns unless and until every gun barrel is confiscated.)

banpreso
07-30-2012, 9:50 AM
star trek replicator anyone??? :43:

ptoguy2002
07-30-2012, 9:52 AM
And some day, somebody will come out with a DIY AR-15 injection molded on a sprue just like the Monogram model airplanes you used to build:
http://www.jetplanes.co.uk/modelaircraft/revell_swordfish/swordfish_sprue1.jpg

Kinda like this, but instead of screws, use Testor's liquid cement:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0dc04b3127ccef92712c74d4a00000030O00CbMmzJs1ZMg e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

ZombieTactics
07-30-2012, 10:27 AM
From a practical perspective, low-cost CNC mills and 3D printing technology will eventually obviate all gun control.

The problem for government becomes one similar to alcohol prohibition or the "war on drugs": how do you control the ownership, distribution and use (even misuse) of something which almost everyone can make themselves?

In a similar manner to how prohibition was a technical impossibility, and how the war on drugs is increasingly seen to be causing more problems than it hopes to prevent; gun control is becoming ever more impossible in any practical sense.

At some point you run out of money to enforce laws which "nobody really follows anyway".

selfshrevident
07-30-2012, 10:36 AM
They'll end up just passing a law that requires the manufacturers of the machines to put an algorithm in them that does not allow the printing of anything firearm-like.

SilverTauron
07-30-2012, 10:40 AM
From a practical perspective, low-cost CNC mills and 3D printing technology will eventually obviate all gun control.

The problem for government becomes one similar to alcohol prohibition or the "war on drugs": how do you control the ownership, distribution and use (even misuse) of something which almost everyone can make themselves?

In a similar manner to how prohibition was a technical impossibility, and how the war on drugs is increasingly seen to be causing more problems than it hopes to prevent; gun control is becoming ever more impossible in any practical sense.

At some point you run out of money to enforce laws which "nobody really follows anyway".


Ah!

But such laws are not about stopping crime or public safety! The point of all those regulations isn't to disarm crooks;after all,we wouldn't want the Chief of Police's slush fund budget cut.

The point is CONTROL. The government knows full and darn well you could make a gun in your basement ;the point is that they don't want you doing it for their own interests. A gun made in a citizen's basement represents lost tax and fee revenue, and in states like California its a way for citizens to bypass the entire scheme of gun control regulations.

The roster is irrelevant when all you need is a 3D print of the frame and a slide/barrel ordered online to your door.

DOJ froze your purchase over an unresolved traffic ticket from 1989? No biggie, print the frame and order the rest online. No 10 day waiting period on a gun you made yourself.

Since gun control is really about "citizen control" look for proposed nonsense legislation like making it illegal to field strip a gun outside of a gun range, or laws mandating all gun parts be transacted and Brady Checked through an FFL. The tagline for such regulations will be "bad guys ordering gun parts" , but we here all know what the score is.

njineermike
07-30-2012, 10:47 AM
He's not talking about CNC machines but 3D printers but probably the distinction between them will blurr. And his concern is not so much cost, presumably it will always be cheaper to produce quality firearms in a factory, but simply the impossibility of controling guns at that point or anywhere along the retail chain. It might always cost more for inferior quality to "print" guns but that will be sufficient to render any gun control law impotent.

Or they'll ban 3D printers for the sake of the children.

SilverTauron
07-30-2012, 11:01 AM
Or they'll ban 3D printers for the sake of the children.

Headlines from the Future



Supreme Court to Rule in California Printer Regulation Case.

In response to the State of California's ban on possession of gun related printer blueprints by citizens, a lawsuit was filed against the law in 2015. The case is unprecedented as the SAF is arguing that the 2nd Amendment applies to digital information files, while the State is arguing that the 2nd Amendment is not incorporated against "blueprints and documents".

In 2015, the State Legislature enacted SB666 making it a felony to own,create, transmit, process, transport on stored media, or receive digital blueprints of any gun related parts. The law does not apply to Law Enforcement or Military members. A statement by the Governor stated that "Law abiding citizens don't need to make unsafe and uncertified firearms and parts in their basement".

ZombieTactics
07-30-2012, 11:15 AM
Headlines from the Future ... [etc.]


Very clever, and probably close to what might be tried under some circumstances.

The problem is that various states and the feds have already tried this kind of legislation with things like explosive recipes, drug lab plans, etc. ... got smacked down under 1A protection. It would be fun if the 1A eventually was the thing that saved the 2A, as many have said it was the other way around for some time.

njineermike
07-30-2012, 11:25 AM
Headlines from the Future



Supreme Court to Rule in California Printer Regulation Case.

In response to the State of California's ban on possession of gun related printer blueprints by citizens, a lawsuit was filed against the law in 2015. The case is unprecedented as the SAF is arguing that the 2nd Amendment applies to digital information files, while the State is arguing that the 2nd Amendment is not incorporated against "blueprints and documents".

In 2015, the State Legislature enacted SB666 making it a felony to own,create, transmit, process, transport on stored media, or receive digital blueprints of any gun related parts. The law does not apply to Law Enforcement or Military members. A statement by the Governor stated that "Law abiding citizens don't need to make possess the plans for unsafe and uncertified firearms and parts in their basement".

Almost correct. But pretty close to crystal ball!!

CBruce
07-30-2012, 11:39 AM
is this guy trying to say CNC machines will be so cheap that anyone will be able to buy and manufacture firearms a lot cheaper than buying an company manufactured firearm?

CNC machines, no. But that's just working with existing materials. At some point, possibly in the very near future, we will have consumer level 'printers' capable of building anything that can be built as a designed and constructed as a virtual model out of a variety of materials. It's fundamentally the opposite of what a CNC machine does. Right now we have pretty affordable systems that any consumer can buy or build which are capable of printing in ABS plastic. Very conceivable that this technology will continue to progress, that the cost of these machines will come down, and that the source material will continue to be developed until we have something that's as light and durable as plastic, but has the structural strength of metal.

At that point, firearms will be the least of our concern.

njineermike
07-30-2012, 11:53 AM
And some day, somebody will come out with a DIY AR-15 injection molded on a sprue just like the Monogram model airplanes you used to build:
http://www.jetplanes.co.uk/modelaircraft/revell_swordfish/swordfish_sprue1.jpg

Kinda like this, but instead of screws, use Testor's liquid cement:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0dc04b3127ccef92712c74d4a00000030O00CbMmzJs1ZMg e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

GENIUS!!!!!

Wiz-of-Awd
07-30-2012, 11:54 AM
...Very conceivable that this technology will continue to progress...

Absolutely, positively will continue...

The ability to rapidly prototype new parts in the manufacturing world is a game changer with this technology.

Expect more and more of these types of machines to become widely available and accessible to everyone.

A.W.D.

njineermike
07-30-2012, 12:00 PM
Several CalGuns members are already building these in their homes. The software is free and the plans are in a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Printing-Plastic-Printer-Technology-Action/dp/1430234431/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1343674727&sr=8-4&keywords=3d+printer%5C

Or you can just buy one outirght:

http://www.amazon.com/Desktop-Printer-Assembled-Calibrated-Filament/dp/B008CM2TCU/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1343674770&sr=8-5&keywords=3d+printer%5C

Or you can go see the current crop of DIY right here:

http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page

compulsivegunbuyer
07-30-2012, 12:48 PM
They'll end up just passing a law that requires the manufacturers of the machines to put an algorithm in them that does not allow the printing of anything firearm-like.

And someone will make a hack. It's a never ending race of technology.

ELBong
07-30-2012, 9:32 PM
Printing firearms may eventually be a viable reality; however, I haven't yet seen successful printing of live ammunition.

sandwich
07-30-2012, 10:23 PM
Printing firearms may eventually be a viable reality; however, I haven't yet seen successful printing of live ammunition.

Well, a weapon does not have to follow conventional model of primer, powder, containing hardware (cartridge) and bullet.

Just as rail guns allow electromagnetism to throw something (not necessarily a bullet) very fast, a 3D printed gun does not have to work with any explosive related technology.

Just as Ninja's took common farming implements and turned them into weapons (since they were not allowed by law to own swords), we need people to think outside the box and use 3D printing to create new kinds of weapons.

And do it in such a way to make it (the action of the weapon) impossible to outlaw! (I.e., so simple of an action that it can be made with Lego but 3D printing will make it more compact or more accurate or more quickly to mass produce.)

haveyourmile
07-30-2012, 11:12 PM
My mind has officially been blown

Dreaded Claymore
07-31-2012, 9:16 AM
The problem is that various states and the feds have already tried this kind of legislation with things like explosive recipes, drug lab plans, etc. ... got smacked down under 1A protection.

Which is why I have the Army's own Improvised Munitions Handbook sitting on my shelf right now. Instructions for making various explosive compounds, from scratch. Sure, I'll never use any of it, because I don't have anything that I need shaped charges to destroy, and I don't have any land on which to set off explosives for fun. But nevertheless, I love the First Amendment.

Wherryj
07-31-2012, 10:32 AM
They'll end up just passing a law that requires the manufacturers of the machines to put an algorithm in them that does not allow the printing of anything firearm-like.

...and just like the hackers cracked the digital algorithms on DirecTV receivers, you'll have a race of programmers vs. hackers. The only thing that seems to have helped DirecTV is that it became a matter of comparing costs. If you are trying to steal TV programming by using an inexpensive hack it is "cost beneficial". If you are trying to steal programming with hacks that are becoming increasingly more expensive you will reach a point where it just isn't worth the price.

Firearms will always be valuable to the "right" people (by this I mean typically the wrong ones). It will be difficult to imagine any sort of programming that won't be "worthwhile" to bypass when it comes to firearms. It may cost quite a bit, but the person that invests the time/money will be able to recoup it by selling their illicit product to others.

This will still not control the problem. Once the technology is available, the genie is out of the bottle.

IVC
07-31-2012, 11:32 AM
...a 3D printed gun does not have to work with any explosive related technology.

They are not explosives, they are propellants. A very significant difference when it comes to legal issues.

jwkincal
07-31-2012, 11:38 AM
They are not explosives, they are propellants. A very significant difference when it comes to legal issues.

...and without chemical propellants of some kind, you will not be able to produce anything remotely as useful as an actual firearm.

Luckily, chemical propellants are pretty easy to produce, and the ammo part of the equation is pretty simple. I'd guess that billions of rounds of ammunition are already manufactured annually in homes all around the US.

POLICESTATE
07-31-2012, 11:54 AM
Gun control, like the war on drugs, the war on terror, and prohibition, is a complete failure.

yellowfin
07-31-2012, 11:58 AM
Gun control, like the war on drugs, the war on terror, and prohibition, is a complete failure.The first three have greatly succeeded at their real goal: expand government, erode freedom, and get more people too used to being regulated, bullied, monitored, and defrauded by government all in the name of some supposedly noble goal of making people safer. It's government acting exactly how the Founders knew it would were it not constantly pruned back by people vigilant in defending liberty.

POLICESTATE
07-31-2012, 12:02 PM
The first three have greatly succeeded at their real goal: expand government, erode freedom, and get more people too used to being regulated, bullied, monitored, and defrauded by government all in the name of some supposedly noble goal of making people safer. It's government acting exactly how the Founders knew it would were it not constantly pruned back by people vigilant in defending liberty.

That is true, I should have been more specific in my statement that they are/were a total failure to control the things they were said to control, although they are very good at controlling US.

:(

ipser
09-24-2012, 9:41 AM
This week, the so-called Wiki Weapon Project, an initiative that aims to design and build the world’s first entirely 3D-printable handgun, met its goal of raising $20,000 from Internet donors, according to the group’s spokesperson, University of Texas law student Cody Wilson. That’s about ten times the amount the project had managed to raise through the crowdsourced fundraising site Indiegogo when the donation platform summarily booted the printable gun project from its website last month and refunded the group’s pool of contributions to donors.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/09/20/3d-printed-gun-project-hits-its-fundraising-goal-despite-being-booted-off-indiegogo/

Wherryj
09-24-2012, 10:04 AM
is this guy trying to say CNC machines will be so cheap that anyone will be able to buy and manufacture firearms a lot cheaper than buying an company manufactured firearm?

Forget that. When CNC machines get cheap enough, I'm printing myself a Veyron.

ClarenceBoddicker
09-24-2012, 10:05 AM
Doesn't really change anything as CA & Federal laws currently cover almost every aspect of gun ownership. Self built firearms are subject to all laws, except for the 4473 Federal & CA DROS registration schemes unless sold in the future. At worst when people start making illegal homemade guns & getting busted there will be a CA & Federal crack down with new laws that require all homemade guns to be registered/background checked before being made. Just like the Federal form 1 when making an NFA weapon. Careful what you wish for. Does anyone here remember the suppressor "kits" from the early 1980's & what was done to put a stop to them?

The gun grabbers in power (both Republican & Democrat) have road maps for the eventual non rich citizen disarmament in the US. The paths may have some twists & turns with different routes, but they all irrecoverably lead to the same destination: no guns for most American citizens. The rich & some corporations will be exempt as usual.

Wherryj
09-24-2012, 10:06 AM
They'll end up just passing a law that requires the manufacturers of the machines to put an algorithm in them that does not allow the printing of anything firearm-like.

Yeah, because no one knows how to hack that code back out of the machine. I suspect that if this happens we'll see all of the underground forums where people mod the machines back to the point where they can make anything.

stix213
09-24-2012, 10:41 AM
Yet another news article stealing a Calgunner's personal AR-15 pic.

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/885/stag2wi.jpg

I'm planning on building a 24" fluted ss barrel, free float tube, magpul prs stock, and miad grip from model 1 sales next.:)

robcoe
09-24-2012, 10:46 AM
They'll end up just passing a law that requires the manufacturers of the machines to put an algorithm in them that does not allow the printing of anything firearm-like.

Yea, just like DRM technology has completely eliminated software piracy.

The second something like that is put in, 10,000 people across the internet will take it as a challenge, at probably half will find a way to bypass it within 3 days.

dieselpower
09-24-2012, 10:48 AM
He's not talking about CNC machines but 3D printers but probably the distinction between them will blurr. And his concern is not so much cost, presumably it will always be cheaper to produce quality firearms in a factory, but simply the impossibility of controling guns at that point or anywhere along the retail chain. It might always cost more for inferior quality to "print" guns but that will be sufficient to render any gun control law impotent.

sorry, I disagree. The day will soon be here where I can print a higher quality firearm at home then a factory can produce using paid labor and at a lesser cost.... not all of them but most of them.

Now for mass production of firearms...sure the factory buys material in bulk so making 10,000 at a cost of $1.00 per firearm is less then making one at $30...but the factory has overhead so the product they make sells for $50...so the homemade firearm with the 3d printer is of the same quality and cheaper.

Glock22Fan
09-24-2012, 11:16 AM
It is already perfectly feasible to make firearms in your garage with a few simple machine tools, as can be seen in many third world countries.

Why would (expensive) 3D metal printers make much difference to the legislation?

glock 357
09-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Gun control, like the war on drugs, the war on terror, and prohibition, is a complete failure.

A complete financial failure paid by us tax payers....

But what have we learned with that history becomes a financial future?
War on drugs = get ready to profit off a legal medical marijuana clinic
War on terror = Start your own consulting business as a contractor
Prohibition = Start your own business and invest in a still
Gun control = ????????????

Something will become legal out of it all so whatever they appose is the future money maker.

mblat
09-24-2012, 11:38 AM
Yea, just like DRM technology has completely eliminated software piracy.

The second something like that is put in, 10,000 people across the internet will take it as a challenge, at probably half will find a way to bypass it within 3 days.

3 days? The WHOLE 3 days? Can't be THAT long :D

mblat
09-24-2012, 11:44 AM
It is already perfectly feasible to make firearms in your garage with a few simple machine tools, as can be seen in many third world countries.

Why would (expensive) 3D metal printers make much difference to the legislation?

Making firearms today with "few simple tools" requires quite a bit of "know-how" and aptitude to do mechanical things.
3D printers will allow 11 years old with some knowledge of how to use computers (read every single of them in US) to create a firearm.
Big difference. What are you going to do with the kid? What are you going to do with parent who says - "my 9 years old just printed it and I just wanted to see if it can really shoot?"

Powerkraut
09-24-2012, 11:54 AM
Even without 3d printers guns are not that hard to make with nothing more than basic hand tools, a drill press, and a mig welder. Look at the Luty, smoothbore may not be ideal, but it's good enough for short range.

Powerkraut
09-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Making firearms today with "few simple tools" requires quite a bit of "know-how" and aptitude to do mechanical things.
3D printers will allow 11 years old with some knowledge of how to use computers (read every single of them in US) to create a firearm.
Big difference. What are you going to do with the kid? What are you going to do with parent who says - "my 9 years old just printed it and I just wanted to see if it can really shoot?"

You're overestimating the complexity of an open-bolt pistol caliber SMG. Maybe an 11 yo couldn't do it, but where I grew up most teenage boys had the skills required to build a simple SMG. Even a STEN is more complex than it has to be to be effective and the Brits had women, children, and the elderly cranking those things out.

Glock22Fan
09-24-2012, 12:11 PM
You're overestimating the complexity of an open-bolt pistol caliber SMG. Maybe an 11 yo couldn't do it, but where I grew up most teenage boys had the skills required to build a simple SMG. Even a STEN is more complex than it has to be to be effective and the Brits had women, children, and the elderly cranking those things out.

I didn't have the tools when I was eleven, but by the time I was 13 I certainly had enough of an idea to build something fire-able single shot had I had access to a machine shop. Fortunately I did not, and my attempts at that time to find a barrel with a .22 internal diameter weren't successful. At that time I could have sourced a few .22LR cartridges, thanks to a junior cadet force at my school (yes, complete with a rifle range in the school grounds - in England, no less).

We don't have the need for backstreet garages turning out firearms, but if it were harder to buy them legitimately it would happen, prototype printers or the old fashioned way, it would make very little difference IMHO. In Britain, they are converting air guns from the continent to fire rim fires. Quite a trade in them according to one newspaper article I read recently.

mblat
09-24-2012, 12:27 PM
You're overestimating the complexity of an open-bolt pistol caliber SMG. Maybe an 11 yo couldn't do it, but where I grew up most teenage boys had the skills required to build a simple SMG. Even a STEN is more complex than it has to be to be effective and the Brits had women, children, and the elderly cranking those things out.

I don't think so. I think you alluded to it in your post. Partly it is a generational and geographical thing - there are LOT of people now days that have NEVER changed an oil in a car. They NEVER used lawn mover. They NEVER change a lock on a door or install a power outlet. For better or worse life in metropolitan area allows you to be completely devoid of ANY mechanical skills. Not to mention number of people who don't have a garage to do an assembly.


Main point is I think "natural age limit" and "don't want to get my hands dirty complex".
I wouldn't expect 11 years old to be able to acquire parts and tools required to assemble STEN on open market. It isn't impossible, but unlikely.
I know a lot of people who wouldn't want to mess with dirty parts kits.
Print it in his own bedroom with guarantee that everything will fit, won't require ANY adjustment and you can assemble it on your coffee table? No problem what so ever.

I didn't have the tools when I was eleven, but by the time I was 13 I certainly had enough of an idea to build something fire-able single shot had I had access to a machine shop.

My point exactly. Kids who are are 5 years old WILL have access to required equipment that you didn't. Different one, but good enough for the task.

advocatusdiaboli
09-24-2012, 1:20 PM
Gun control, like the war on drugs, the war on terror, and prohibition, is a complete failure.
Yep. This ^^^.

Nonetheless, failed big budget programs that make people feel safe without having to thinking about them have always been the mainstay of American political leaders of both major parties. I don't see that ever changing.

Powerkraut
09-24-2012, 2:08 PM
I don't think so. I think you alluded to it in your post. Partly it is a generational and geographical thing - there are LOT of people now days that have NEVER changed an oil in a car. They NEVER used lawn mover. They NEVER change a lock on a door or install a power outlet. For better or worse life in metropolitan area allows you to be completely devoid of ANY mechanical skills. Not to mention number of people who don't have a garage to do an assembly.


Main point is I think "natural age limit" and "don't want to get my hands dirty complex".
I wouldn't expect 11 years old to be able to acquire parts and tools required to assemble STEN on open market. It isn't impossible, but unlikely.
I know a lot of people who wouldn't want to mess with dirty parts kits.
Print it in his own bedroom with guarantee that everything will fit, won't require ANY adjustment and you can assemble it on your coffee table? No problem what so ever.


My point is that 3d printing technology would have to progress to the point where there is one in every household capable of cranking out firearm parts before it becomes a likely route for people to assemble illicit firearms. Compare that to the here and now where the tools and materials to produce rudimentary firearms already exists in many homes and can be picked up at any local hardware store for a pittance. Furthermore, the skills needed to assemble one are so basic that anyone can learn to do it in a day, they can figure it out for themselves if they have any experience with any kind of hand tools.

A Luty has three moving parts including the magazine follower and the tolerances are huge. 3D printing has a very long way to go before anyone should be talking about it.

Glock22Fan
09-24-2012, 2:15 PM
We're all missing the point completely with the present drift.

The OP was about whether or not prototype printing would make it so easy to make a firearm that gun control would be abandoned.

It's likely that prototype printing or any other manufacturing method will never make it as easy to manufacture a firearm as it is today to obtain illicit mind-bending substances. Were the original hypothesis correct, drug control would have been abandoned long ago.

Powerkraut
09-24-2012, 2:37 PM
Guess I should have elaborated then, my point is that it is already as easy to make a gun as it is to cook meth or make moonshine. 3D printing won't change that.

Glock22Fan
09-24-2012, 2:45 PM
Moonshine is easy-peasy. Made gallons of it, for personal consumption, in a different part of the world. Never heard any hints that they were going to make it legal, just 'cos (almost) anyone can do it. The same, I'm sure, is true about homemade guns.

SpunkyJivl
09-24-2012, 3:07 PM
Rifle, 308, Black.

postal
09-24-2012, 4:53 PM
Forget that. When CNC machines get cheap enough, I'm printing myself a Veyron.

Gonna need one heck of a big block of aluminum to make the hood and front fenders.....

Better off getting a sheet of alu and use an english wheel, hand pounding it to shape...

mblat
09-24-2012, 5:09 PM
We're all missing the point completely with the present drift.

The OP was about whether or not prototype printing would make it so easy to make a firearm that gun control would be abandoned.

It's likely that prototype printing or any other manufacturing method will never make it as easy to manufacture a firearm as it is today to obtain illicit mind-bending substances. Were the original hypothesis correct, drug control would have been abandoned long ago.

I understand your argument and admit that it is very logical. There is of cause the difference between illicit drugs and gun control.
1. Gun control opposition is real large in numbers, very good in organization.
2. Gun control movement on other hands became ALMOST fringe movement. It lost popular support ( for the moment ) and seems to feed only from "old" liberals ala DiFi.
3. There is no profit in gun control. Short of very few .gov employees there is no group of people that can make real money on gun control.
4. Drugs on other hand is VERY different. Both drug cartels and .gov is HIGHLY interested in continuation of "war on drugs". Both of those sides make like a bandits (well, at least half of them are) from that farce.
and of cause.....
5. Drug Control enjoys popular support. Outside of very narrow group of libertarians nobody opposes it. I understand that this arguable. So I will reduce this to: there is no national organization of any importance/influence that advocates end of "War on Drugs"


Resume:
there is a VERY powerful lobby that enjoys wide popular support that will fight against gun control. Fact that gun control laws are unenforceable on principal may be powerful argument for them.

advocatusdiaboli
09-25-2012, 6:36 AM
While you have very logically built your case, you used some flawed assumption to base it on and it doesn't quite fit together as a result:

1. Gun control opposition is real large in numbers, very good in organization.

The cartels are not large, powerful, and heavily capitalized? They are, much more so than anti-gun control forces. 35 Mexican Federal Police were just arrested in Vera Cruz because they were on the take from the Zetas. The movement to legalize Marajuana is more powerful in California than the gun rights movement—which movement got a referendum on the ballot? And which movement got slapped down with open carry bans?


2. Gun control movement on other hands became ALMOST fringe movement. It lost popular support ( for the moment ) and seems to feed only from "old" liberals ala DiFi.

The gun control movement is powerful in California. It's advocates keep electing Boxer and DiFi and put Harris in office. We have yet to overturn the AWB or The Roster and new gun control laws are being passed every session—that is not a sign gun rights organizations are more powerful that gun control organizations—in fact it's the opposite. California is predominantly anti-firearm. The national picture is more balanced, but that has yet to help us at all in CA. At all.


3. There is no profit in gun control. Short of very few .gov employees there is no group of people that can make real money on gun control.
4. Drugs on other hand is VERY different. Both drug cartels and .gov is HIGHLY interested in continuation of "war on drugs". Both of those sides make like a bandits (well, at least half of them are) from that farce.
and of cause.....

The profit in gun control accrues to politicians pandering to the fear of guns in large metro areas and they reap great benefits from it.


5. Drug Control enjoys popular support. Outside of very narrow group of libertarians nobody opposes it. I understand that this arguable. So I will reduce this to: there is no national organization of any importance/influence that advocates end of "War on Drugs"

And there is no national organization for gun right that has been effective in stemming the tide of gun control legislation in California while medical marajuana is now legal in the state of California.

Maestro Pistolero
09-25-2012, 8:54 AM
Assuming for a moment that it is possible at this time to make a gun out of the whole cloth with such a machine, how does it spell the end of gun control any more than a guy with all the conventional machinery and skill to do it in his garage right now? I've yet to hear how one of these magic machine can make a barrel, etc out of hardened steel, BTW.

I've no doubt technology could put the capability within reach of the average person eventually. But I am extremely dubious as to what effect this has on gun regulation, because it can be done NOW, it just takes a little longer.

Glock22Fan
09-25-2012, 9:35 AM
Assuming for a moment that it is possible at this time to make a gun out of the whole cloth with such a machine, how does it spell the end of gun control any more than a guy with all the conventional machinery and skill to do it in his garage right now? I've yet to hear how one of these magic machine can make a barrel, etc out of hardened steel, BTW.

I've no doubt technology could put the capability within reach of the average person eventually. But I am extremely dubious as to what effect this has on gun regulation, because it can be done NOW, it just takes a little longer.

Exactly what some of us have been saying throughout this thread. The only response seems to be that people who don't want to get their hands dirty will be able to make them this way.

Mulay El Raisuli
09-25-2012, 10:06 AM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/09/20/3d-printed-gun-project-hits-its-fundraising-goal-despite-being-booted-off-indiegogo/


Excellent!


Doesn't really change anything as CA & Federal laws currently cover almost every aspect of gun ownership. Self built firearms are subject to all laws, except for the 4473 Federal & CA DROS registration schemes unless sold in the future. At worst when people start making illegal homemade guns & getting busted there will be a CA & Federal crack down with new laws that require all homemade guns to be registered/background checked before being made. Just like the Federal form 1 when making an NFA weapon. Careful what you wish for. Does anyone here remember the suppressor "kits" from the early 1980's & what was done to put a stop to them?


Actually, I don't. Could you tell us?


From a practical perspective, low-cost CNC mills and 3D printing technology will eventually obviate all gun control.

The problem for government becomes one similar to alcohol prohibition or the "war on drugs": how do you control the ownership, distribution and use (even misuse) of something which almost everyone can make themselves?

In a similar manner to how prohibition was a technical impossibility, and how the war on drugs is increasingly seen to be causing more problems than it hopes to prevent; gun control is becoming ever more impossible in any practical sense.

At some point you run out of money to enforce laws which "nobody really follows anyway".


Sadly, Di-Fi & the Bradys have no fear of running out of money, since it isn't their money that they spend in the first place.


Headlines from the Future



Supreme Court to Rule in California Printer Regulation Case.

In response to the State of California's ban on possession of gun related printer blueprints by citizens, a lawsuit was filed against the law in 2015. The case is unprecedented as the SAF is arguing that the 2nd Amendment applies to digital information files, while the State is arguing that the 2nd Amendment is not incorporated against "blueprints and documents".

In 2015, the State Legislature enacted SB666 making it a felony to own,create, transmit, process, transport on stored media, or receive digital blueprints of any gun related parts. The law does not apply to Law Enforcement or Military members. A statement by the Governor stated that "Law abiding citizens don't need to make unsafe and uncertified firearms and parts in their basement".


LOL!


CNC machines, no. But that's just working with existing materials. At some point, possibly in the very near future, we will have consumer level 'printers' capable of building anything that can be built as a designed and constructed as a virtual model out of a variety of materials. It's fundamentally the opposite of what a CNC machine does. Right now we have pretty affordable systems that any consumer can buy or build which are capable of printing in ABS plastic. Very conceivable that this technology will continue to progress, that the cost of these machines will come down, and that the source material will continue to be developed until we have something that's as light and durable as plastic, but has the structural strength of metal.

At that point, firearms will be the least of our concern.


Unobtainium?


The Raisuli

mallard
09-25-2012, 10:14 AM
In 2015, the State Legislature enacted SB666 making it a felony to own,create, transmit, process, transport on stored media, or receive digital blueprints of any gun related parts. The law does not apply to Law Enforcement or Military members.

what is this all about ? do LEO and MIL really make their own firearms ? or is it so they can create a division between LEO/MIL and civilians. As long as LEO/MIL's can own the evil guns we civilians can not, we will lack the much needed support of LEO's. If LEO were forced to obey the same laws we do with no exemptions, i think things would be different.

Divide and conquer seems to be the agenda, in my eyes.

Glock22Fan
09-25-2012, 10:35 AM
In 2015, the State Legislature enacted SB666 making it a felony to own,create, transmit, process, transport on stored media, or receive digital blueprints of any gun related parts. The law does not apply to Law Enforcement or Military members.

what is this all about ? do LEO and MIL really make their own firearms ? or is it so they can create a division between LEO/MIL and civilians. As long as LEO/MIL's can own the evil guns we civilians can not, we will lack the much needed support of LEO's. If LEO were forced to obey the same laws we do with no exemptions, i think things would be different.

Divide and conquer seems to be the agenda, in my eyes.

LEO would have to be exempt or they would not be able to take away your DVD library of illicit design files!

Powerkraut
09-25-2012, 10:49 AM
what is this all about ? do LEO and MIL really make their own firearms ? or is it so they can create a division between LEO/MIL and civilians. As long as LEO/MIL's can own the evil guns we civilians can not, we will lack the much needed support of LEO's. If LEO were forced to obey the same laws we do with no exemptions, i think things would be different.

Divide and conquer seems to be the agenda, in my eyes.

This is a good point, exemptions have always bothered me:

-Politicians pass laws they exempt themselves from
-LEO enforces laws they are exempt from
-Judges uphold laws they are exempt from

Starts to look a little oppressive.

advocatusdiaboli
09-26-2012, 4:40 AM
While it is entertaining to speculate on the efforts of The State to suppress the acquisition of power by the governed and the governed efforts to possess the power, it is clear from history that an oppressive state has the tools to prevent access to power by a sufficient majority to ensure control in what ever forms such power takes. Madison, Jefferson, and the other knew this and that is why they created the Bill of Rights in the first place.

These machines are largely software (and firmware) which means backdoors, network validations, required network based upgrades, and other control methods used now to control on-premise devices (think Xbox 360, set-top boxes, satellite TV modems, etc.) will be very effective in limiting rogue printing to a very, very small group.

If you have followed the efforts of Microsoft to control the Xbox 360 hackers as well as cable and satellite providers to eliminate hacked devices, you just need to add in the NSA and ASA for several orders of magnitude of cleverness to realize that The State will very effectively suppress the technology's use for weapons manufacturing. The State likes to be in control of who gets arms, increasingly so, and that is not going to change.

And, unfortunately, The State has increasingly larger amounts of money to throw at the problem—and citizens less and less. If The State's grip on this technology weakens enough to allow significant use by unauthorized citizens, we'll already be in anarchy and conventional sources of weapons will have already made them abundant.