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View Full Version : How's this shooting? Criticism welcome


Mr_Monkeywrench
07-23-2012, 9:57 PM
Hey guys, I went to the range today and decided to try to work on my accuracy. Here's a pic of the target that I was using. The center target was done at 15 yards with 10 rounds. Bottom left was at 20 yards with 18 rounds. Bottom right was at 25 yards with 13 rounds.

I was using a Sig Sauer P229 9mm winchester white box 100 round value pack. These were all single action shots free standing (no rest). Let me know if there's anything I can do to improve my groups. Thanks.

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a450/Mr_monkeywrench/Calguns%20pics/DSCN1016.jpg

bigmike82
07-23-2012, 10:22 PM
If you're shooting for tight groups, work on your technique more. Your middle target is okay except for the vertical outliers. The rest are likely due to incorrect grip or jerking the pistol.

See this for more info:

http://www.centerfiretraining.com/id15.html

What I would do is shoot slowly (no more than one round every five seconds or so), relax your grip (IF you feel your pistol shaking even a little bit), relax in general and *slowly* squeeze the trigger. That helps me a lot, anyway...your mileage may vary.

Most importantly, however, virtually all those shots are center mass so don't be discouraged. Work on the basics (over and over and over and over again), and you should see those groups tighten up.

Mr_Monkeywrench
07-23-2012, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the advice. I did notice my hands shaking. I have an issue with that. Doc said I can take med to chill it out, but Ill pass until I go Michael J. Fox. For now I'll practice until I get it right. I was shooting in kind of a quick repetition....Sights on target, fire, reset, sights on target, immediate follow up shot, reset, continue... I did this until I spent the mag.

I guess I should slow down my shots and maybe grip a little lighter to compensate for the shaking.

Thank you.

9mmepiphany
07-24-2012, 10:15 AM
It is hard to make suggestions without seeing you shoot or at least seeing a picture of the grip you are using.

As a generalization, it does appear they you are over gripping the gun and likely tightening the grip of your strong hand as you press the trigger.

Which thumb position are you using?

I was shooting in kind of a quick repetition....Sights on target, fire, reset, sights on target, immediate follow up shot, reset, continue... I did this until I spent the mag.
That isn't a bad cadence, but I'd limit my strings of fire to 3-5 rounds

Shenaniguns
07-24-2012, 10:31 AM
Are you sure that's yards and not feet? Brea's indoor range only goes to 50 feet.

The Virus
07-24-2012, 11:16 AM
If you are wanting to be a bullseye shooter then it sucks.
If you are concerned with defense it looks like they would all be combat effective.

jakuda
07-24-2012, 2:21 PM
At 25 yards, learn to shoot through your shaking hands. At 25 yards, let the target be blurry and just focus on sight alignment. Ignore where the sights are in relation to the black bullseye, and focus on your trigger pull. Once you start the pull, finish it smoothly, or put down the gun and reset.

Try shooting at 25 yards on a completely blank target (shoot on the blank side of a normal target). Just aim at the middle of the paper; don't try to aim for a hole. You'll find you can group pretty well. The bullseye just serves as a distraction to try to snatch a perfect shot.

(note, that all this advice is from a bullseye shooter point of view, focusing on fundamentals, not speed and tactical)

9mmepiphany
07-24-2012, 2:36 PM
Are you sure that's yards and not feet? Brea's indoor range only goes to 50 feet.
If those distances were feet instead of yards, I'd say your grip needs a lot of tweaking.

I just worked with a client this last weekend, whose groups went from 8" to 3" by just tweaking his grip and with some trigger control work we got it down to dropping the round son each other at 5 yards (15')

Shenaniguns
07-24-2012, 2:50 PM
If those distances were feet instead of yards, I'd say your grip needs a lot of tweaking.

I just worked with a client this last weekend, whose groups went from 8" to 3" by just tweaking his grip and with some trigger control work we got it down to dropping the round son each other at 5 yards (15')


I had a hunch that someone asking those questions is relatively new to shooting and that shooting at 25 yards for a new untrained shooter is not easy.

tbc
07-24-2012, 3:43 PM
Are you sure that's yards and not feet? Brea's indoor range only goes to 50 feet.

How do you know it's Brea's indoor range? :)

OP,
just FYI, the black circle on your target at 25 yards away from you is smaller than the white dot of your front site.
Still nice groups though. :)


Sent from my iPhone

Shenaniguns
07-24-2012, 3:51 PM
How do you know it's Brea's indoor range? :)

OP,
just FYI, the black circle on your target at 25 yards away from you is smaller than the white dot of your front site.
Still nice groups though. :)


Sent from my iPhone

I dunno, it's written on the target.

tbc
07-24-2012, 4:37 PM
Ah. Didn't pay close attention.


Sent from my iPhone

9mmepiphany
07-24-2012, 5:47 PM
the black circle on your target at 25 yards away from you is smaller than the white dot of your front site.
That is one of the major reasons you shouldn't aim by covering your intended POI with your front sight

tbc
07-24-2012, 6:39 PM
That is one of the major reasons you shouldn't aim by covering your intended POI with your front sight

Yep. I am in the process of changing my HKs factory sights from image 3 to image 2. I would like to use image 1 but I have to file down the front sights which I am too afraid I may mess up. Thanks again 9mm.:)

http://img.tapatalk.com/a693581d-5c80-bbcb.jpg


Sent from my iPhone

bigmike82
07-24-2012, 7:17 PM
Yeah, if your hands are shaking, relax your grip a bit. I find that the tighter I grip the pistol, the worse I shoot. relax and take your time..your groups should shrink.

SURVIVOR619
07-24-2012, 7:35 PM
At 25 yards, learn to shoot through your shaking hands. At 25 yards, let the target be blurry and just focus on sight alignment. Ignore where the sights are in relation to the black bullseye, and focus on your trigger pull. Once you start the pull, finish it smoothly, or put down the gun and reset.

Try shooting at 25 yards on a completely blank target (shoot on the blank side of a normal target). Just aim at the middle of the paper; don't try to aim for a hole. You'll find you can group pretty well. The bullseye just serves as a distraction to try to snatch a perfect shot.

(note, that all this advice is from a bullseye shooter point of view, focusing on fundamentals, not speed and tactical)

I'm gonna heist the thread for a post and say thanks, I want to try this.

Respect to OP for seeking honest feedback in a sometimes vicious locale.

Survivor


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk🔫

jakuda
07-24-2012, 7:59 PM
I know I mentioned to ignore the sight picture in my post above, but what I meant is that the shooter should not focus on trying to get a 100% perfect sight picture. Your wobble is naturally going to move you in and out of perfect sight picture, so let it happen. Even if the sight picture isn't perfect, but your sight alignment and trigger pull are perfect you'll still get the shot in the 10ring.

When I shoot iron sights, I use a different sight picture than those mentioned above. I shoot a "sub 6oclock", which means I leave a line of white from the top of the front post to the bottom of the bullseye. The image below is a bit exaggerated, but should be close enough for an idea of sub 6oclock hold. For target shooting, sub 6oclock is useful since it allows the shooter to focus almost solely on sight alignment without the distracting bullseye getting in the way. Even if it's not ideal for selfdefense or practical shooting,it's a good training aid to make the shooter focus on sight alignment.

http://www.nrainsights.org/images/EyesOnPrize4.jpg

brassburnz
07-24-2012, 10:43 PM
If your distances are correct, you are an excellent shot. The black of the 75 ft. smallbore rifle target is 2 3/8 inches, which means your group is around 3 1/2 inches.

The black of a 25 yard rapid fire pistol target in NRA Conventional pistol, or bullseye is 5 1/2 inches and the 10-ring is 3 inches, which means all of your shots would be in the black and most of them would break the 10-ring. If you took your 10 worst shots, you would score in the high 90's, either a 98 or 99. Most bullseye shooters I know would be OK with a 98 or 99 timed or rapid fire score, although shooting a clean 100 is everyone's goal.

I have custom built 1911 bullseye guns with red-dot sights and would have to be at my very best to shoot groups like this. My dot would cover the black of a 75 ft. smallbore rifle target. Shooting a group like this with a Sig 229 and open sights is exceptional.

9mmepiphany
07-24-2012, 10:50 PM
If your distances are correct, you are an excellent shot.
Refer to post #5...the range only goes to 50 feet

Mr_Monkeywrench
07-25-2012, 12:20 AM
Thanks guys for all the great advice. I really do appreciate it. Yeah, I think I need to work on my grip. Im more of a rifle shooter. When I shoot rifles, I use my sling wrapped around my bicep and a VERY soft grip for the support hand. With the trigger hand, I usually don't wrap my thumb around the stock. I usually rest it on the side and smooth press. But with three points of contact, it really helps with shaking. Im going to use a softer grip with the pistol.

As for brea, I think you are all right. It is in feet. The furthest shots was at the last line, second shots second furthest, and so on. When I had the target the furthest away, the front sight dot completely covered the bullseye target. I just focused on it the way I do with rifles. Someone once told me to focus on the front sight so much that if there was a novel written on it, I should be able to read out the first paragraph.

Also, My grip is where I wrap my right hand around to where the second knuckles are about at the front of the front strap of the grip. tip of trigger finger works the trigger and the support hand is thumb forward with palm covering the remaining area on the grip (full grip). My right thumb goes on the meat of the left (so I don't actuate the slide release on the SIG) and the fingers of left hand goes in between the fingers of the others. Bladed stance, knees slightly bent right arm fully extended and left with SLIGHT bend.

Mr_Monkeywrench
07-25-2012, 12:22 AM
Im not a target pistol shooter, but I like challenging myself and improving. If this is a way to do so, Im in. :D

SilverTauron
07-25-2012, 2:01 AM
One suggestion which will improve your shooting;start off in Double Action.

Yes, your first 10 targets will look like fresh *****. So did Jerry Mickulek's and everyone else's who started out. Thats why its called "practice".Eventually the shotgun patterns will shrink to something a little less embarrasing. With practice you'll start looking good when you shoot.

But it takes time, and it takes ammo. 250 round bulk packs of ammo help.

blockfort
07-25-2012, 6:19 AM
I thoroughly confused. What were the actual distances you were shooting from?

Shenaniguns
07-25-2012, 8:37 AM
I thoroughly confused. What were the actual distances you were shooting from?


He confirmed it was feet, it's not a knock on him but correct information helps with answering his questions.

Supertac916
07-25-2012, 9:52 AM
OP not bad shooting and the other guys made some good points.

Your misses are mostly left of the target and you mention your hands shake. It's a problem many of us "Men" have because we believe that we need to vise grip the gun and control the recoil. It's why women tend to be better shooters starting out.

Your strong hand should be just enough to hold the gun and fairly relaxed. Your left hand is used to lock in your gun by applying direct pressure towards you. Most shooters who shoot left are usually gripping the gun too tightly and not pressing directly towards you. If your squeezing too hard with your right hand, we tend to do the same with our left. That pulls our shots left.

Try practice dry firing (Obviously, use common sense and safety precautions). Put a quarter on your front sight and learn to focus on the front sight and slowly press the trigger. You'll notice if you flinch or if your hands start shaking and the quarter falls off. It helped me back in the day, when I used to shoot single hole groups at 15 yards with my .45's.

Don't ask me to do it these days because I've converted to defensive handgun shooting, which is a whole different ball game:)

9mmepiphany
07-25-2012, 10:47 AM
Thanks guys for all the great advice. I really do appreciate it. Yeah, I think I need to work on my grip. Im more of a rifle shooter. When I shoot rifles, I use my sling wrapped around my bicep and a VERY soft grip for the support hand. With the trigger hand, I usually don't wrap my thumb around the stock. I usually rest it on the side and smooth press. But with three points of contact, it really helps with shaking. Im going to use a softer grip with the pistol.
Yup, shooting a handgun is a bit different, as your shoulder joint takes the place of the butt stock and you right hand becomes the recoil shoulder for the action. Your left hand now needs to replace the tension of the sling in stabilizing the stock.

I had a client who had the reverse problem, he was trying to shoot a .338 magnum like a pistol and it was beating him up to where he was missing a lot while hunting bear in Alaska

Also, My grip is where I wrap my right hand around to where the second knuckles are about at the front of the front strap of the grip. tip of trigger finger works the trigger and the support hand is thumb forward with palm covering the remaining area on the grip (full grip). My right thumb goes on the meat of the left (so I don't actuate the slide release on the SIG) and the fingers of left hand goes in between the fingers of the others. Bladed stance, knees slightly bent right arm fully extended and left with SLIGHT bend.
It sounds like you have you right hand too far around (counter clockwise) the gun...trying centering the grip between the first joint (from the tip) and the second.

The placement of the left hand (filling the void behind the right fingers) is good as is resting the right thumb on the meat of the left.

It also sounds like you have some push/pull tension going on between the right and left hands...that will also cause your shots to pull to the left and also contribute to shaking

Try squaring yourself to the target more, drop the right foot back for balance, and extending both arms, but not locking either elbow out...this will reduce the shaking also as it brings more arm muscles into play