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View Full Version : What kinds of nonlethal 12 gauge ammo is legal in CA?


enchantor
06-04-2007, 8:59 AM
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wildcard
06-04-2007, 9:22 AM
Why bother.. if you have a good enough reason (legal) to use your shotgun in the first place.. it might as well be lethal 00 Buck or #1 that spreads when fired. I see no reason for using bean bags as far as home defense goes. I suppose if it's for moral reasons then I can't argue with that.. but prepare to be sued by the assailant who can present whatever story is to their advantage.

MrTuffPaws
06-04-2007, 9:23 AM
If you shoot someone with a beanbag, you better have a good lawyer.

simonov
06-04-2007, 9:33 AM
Deadly force is deadly force. If you need to use deadly force, use it. If not, then don't.

Bean bags can kill. If you have some kind of Buddhist moral issue with killing, then bean bags are not the answer since you can still kill with them. You can kill a person with pretty much anything you fire from a shotgun.

Less than lethal ammunition is only useful in very specific public order applications, not for home defense.

BTW, I have lots of sympathy for folks who are worried about killing intruders. I feel the same way, it's a huge responsibility, deciding whether to pull that trigger. But if that is the case you have no business using a firearm for home defense, since there is no way to make it both effective and non-lethal.

proraptor
06-04-2007, 9:43 AM
I agree....I myself wouldnt use those non lethal rounds for home defense....What I do though is load my shotgun so the first shot is birdshot (even though birdshot will kill) that way I can tell the cops I shot the intruder with bird shot as a warning then went to buckshot and slugs when he still kept coming....

dicast
06-04-2007, 9:46 AM
Bean bag is less lethal, keep in minid it could kill so it's not nonlethal and please don't use it on your buddy

chiefcrash
06-04-2007, 10:07 AM
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html

scroll down until you see "12 GA. Pepper Blast". Basically, it's a shotgun shell loaded with cayenne pepper. Turn your 870 into the world's biggest can of pepperspray...

of course, you could load your own for a lot cheaper...


But seriously, don't bother. if you don't wanna kill him, get a taser or an actual can of mace. if you pull the trigger to the shotgun, something should die (be that an intruder, a bird, or a clay).

think about this: if you shot 'em, but don't kill 'em, they *will* sue you...

WolfMansDad
06-04-2007, 10:23 AM
If you want less-than-lethal self defense, learn ju jitsu. Really, it is wonderful stuff. It allows you to control a situation without killing or maiming. You can't forget and leave it at home, and it won't be discovered on your person or in your car during a search. I can't recommend it enough. Aikido runs a close second.

If ju-jitsu proves insufficient for the job, you probably need something lethal. Your concern about killing another human being is laudable, but it will evaporate the first time someone threatens your life who really means it.

MrLogan
06-04-2007, 10:32 AM
Your reservation to take another life, even if it is in self-defense, is to be commended. Killing is not an easy thing to do, and shouldn't be. But if the time comes, and someone is trying to kill or harm you, your reservation about taking a life will disappear. You won't even think about it, you'll do what you have to do to survive. You'll most likely have a lot of issues to deal with afterwards, but you'll do it. If not, the assailant will do it to you.

Don't even mess with less-than-lethal ammunition. It will open you up to all sorts of legal complications.

James R.
06-04-2007, 10:43 AM
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html

scroll down until you see "12 GA. Pepper Blast". Basically, it's a shotgun shell loaded with cayenne pepper. Turn your 870 into the world's biggest can of pepperspray...

of course, you could load your own for a lot cheaper...


But seriously, don't bother. if you don't wanna kill him, get a taser or an actual can of mace. if you pull the trigger to the shotgun, something should die (be that an intruder, a bird, or a clay).

think about this: if you shot 'em, but don't kill 'em, they *will* sue you...

Can O'Pepper Spray is so dated, the Kimber Lifeact looks like a good system, shoots a jet of spray using a small charge of propellant so it can't leak down or lose pressure. The range is nearly 15 feet. You get 2 shots...so make em count.

Regards,

James R.

enchantor
06-04-2007, 10:46 AM
aaa

MrLogan
06-04-2007, 11:22 AM
just for some food for thought, criminals have taken taser hits/beanbag rounds/pepper spray and continued their madness despite their injuries.

Hell, they've even been known to sustain mortal wounds from rifles, and continued their madness at least another 30 seconds to a minute before dropping dead.

StukaJr
06-04-2007, 11:28 AM
Accuracy is another concern - I've tested some LessLethal (remember - it's not non-lethal) ammo and could not hit as well with it as I could with buckshot or a slug... Rubber projectiles are absolute crap - had to fire 3 shots to hit my E-tool 's flat side of the blade from 7 yards. An idea of hitting a moving target in a controlled manner while under stressful conditions went out with that test - I'm looking for a manner to dispose of the rest of the rounds.

Beanbags performed better, but I was still not convinced... Since then, I became convinced that less lethal stuff maybe for dispersing crowds but not for protecting one's life.

AJAX22
06-04-2007, 11:55 AM
If you're really worried about a lawsuit being filed by the perp, shoot twice.

not much you can do about the family members of the scumbag suing you but at least your story won't be contradicted by some lie about a lost puppy and the door being open and finding the knife on the way into your house and triping so thats why he was lunging at you in the dark with the knife that he found while he followed his lost puppy into your house through your open door.

thats my 2cents anyway

slick_711
06-04-2007, 12:04 PM
Yeah, as others have said... don't do it. I admire your desire to not have to rise to the use of lethal force, but if the situation has called for you to go to arms for self preservation, you shoot to incapacitate. In my mind, a perp is not incapacitated until he's laying on the ground and no longer a threat. Using less-than-lethal munitions is bound to end you up in more/as much legal trouble than killing him, as he'll be there to sue you/testify/complain/be a *****. Rule of thumb, don't shoot unless you really feel it is your only option, and only shoot to *fully* incapacitate the threat.

Prc329
06-04-2007, 12:06 PM
That is the jack up part. Or legal system (well at least here) forces us to be come killers. If I wound a guy it is a good chance he will still take everything I own and ruin my life. Killing him will probably be less of a legal battle. bull doo doo if you ask me.

Grakken
06-04-2007, 1:09 PM
It is a sad state of affairs when someone entering your house illegally can sue you for laying the wood on them. I have an idea, if you never enter my house looking for easy loot or mayhem, you wont get shot. How many other states have dumb laws like this?

CCWFacts
06-04-2007, 1:52 PM
If you could not tolerate the idea of taking a life (which is a commendable world view I must say) then you should not have a gun of any kind. There's no legally reasonable way for a civilian to use less-lethal ammo for defense. Civilians should use ordinary, lethal defensive ammo if they're using guns, because civilians should not introduce a gun into any situation which is not a life-or-death situation where lethal force would be justified.

Your options are pepper spray, a Taser (are these available to civilians?), a dog, a decade of karate training, that kind of thing.

chiefcrash
06-04-2007, 2:11 PM
It is a sad state of affairs when someone entering your house illegally can sue you for laying the wood on them. I have an idea, if you never enter my house looking for easy loot or mayhem, you wont get shot. How many other states have dumb laws like this?

or why can't they just pass a law that says you may not sue for damages incurred during the commission of a crime?

luvtolean
06-04-2007, 3:30 PM
That is the jack up part. Or legal system (well at least here) forces us to be come killers. If I wound a guy it is a good chance he will still take everything I own and ruin my life. Killing him will probably be less of a legal battle. bull doo doo if you ask me.

Don't believe all you read on the web, or for that matter, in this thread.

Buy the How to Stay out of jail book, take some use of force training with a qualified instructor, and if you still have questions, talk to an experienced firearms law attorney.

Also, there is nothing wrong with owning a gun if you refuse to take another's life. There are plenty of purely sporting applications for all types of weapons. This is the side of firearms we all enjoy.

five.five-six
06-04-2007, 4:20 PM
the way I look at it is this. if I have to use deadly force, well it is sort of like if I was driveing down the freeway and someone runs out in traffic and my car kills him. i am sure I would feal bad but he is the one who put himself in a position to be killed.. if you are in my home and are a threat to my family or myself, well I did not put you in that position but I am sure as hell going to take you out.

enchantor
06-04-2007, 9:06 PM
aaa

enchantor
06-04-2007, 9:07 PM
the way I look at it is this. if I have to use deadly force, well it is sort of like if I was driveing down the freeway and someone runs out in traffic and my car kills him. i am sure I would feal bad but he is the one who put himself in a position to be killed.. if you are in my home and are a threat to my family or myself, well I did not put you in that position but I am sure as hell going to take you out.

Well put

DrjonesUSA
06-04-2007, 11:29 PM
What kinds of nonlethal 12 gauge ammo is legal in CA?

I'm looking at ordering some beanbag rounds on the internet, but I don't want to get into trouble. Does anyone know what the deal is with this? I wanted to at least have a couple rounds of beanbag in my shotgun so I can avoid [some] complications if per chance someone broke into my house and I wanted to take them down.


Frankly, I think you would expose yourself to much greater risk if you DID use LESS-lethal (they are NOT "non"-lethal) rounds in a real firearm.

If the use of deadly force is authorized, the use of deadly force is authorized.

If you did NOT feel that your life is in grave enough danger to use real bullets, then you should not shoot.

Period, end of story.

Leave the less-lethal junk to cops and buy some 00 Buck.

CCWFacts
06-05-2007, 2:22 AM
Read my second post, my intentions were not to avoid
taking a life, rather to avoid legal red tape.

As others have pointed out, if you use a gun, you are very likely to have all kinds of legal expenses and hassles, at the very least. Using a less-lethal round would probably make it all worse.

I think the consensus is to just use regular firearms if and when you are in a situation that requires the use of force.

Yes. If lethal force is justified, use lethal force (buckshot). If lethal force is not justified, don't introduce a gun into the situation. It's that simple.

enchantor
06-05-2007, 8:23 AM
aaa

Piper
06-05-2007, 9:50 AM
If you use a firearm for home defense, use the best round money can buy and always shoot center mass to stop the attacker, not kill. It's very likely that the attacker will probably die if you do everything right, but then you don't have to worry about the dirtbag lieing and muddying the water.

E. Fudd
06-05-2007, 5:50 PM
I've been told that bean bag rounds can be lethal,especially at close range (ie. indoor distances) and when the head, heart/torso areas are hit, (lethal blunt trauma). They are designed to be used by trained personnel at distance (beyond 10+ yards) and only aimed at legs, thighs (not groin), etc. Much like baton target zones.

I've seen them demo'd at close range on 3D vinyl bad guy targets and the penetration and damage done was quite impressive...