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Scarecrow Repair
07-22-2012, 1:00 PM
When I DROS something, they note the exact time so I can pick it up exactly 240 hours later.

First question -- who enforces this? Suppose I were to show up a few minutes early and the dealer handed it over a couple of minutes early -- his clock was slow, he was lazy, any number of reasons. How is this time limit enforced?

Second question -- how does daylight saving enter into this?

If the clocks go back an hour during the wait and the FFL recognizes this, will he get in trouble for releasing it an hour early by the clock but still 240 hours later?

If the clocks go forward an hour during the wait and the FFL doesn't realize this, will he get in trouble for release it at the right clock time but only 239 hours later?

ClarenceBoddicker
07-22-2012, 1:21 PM
The CA DOJ rigorously enforces all regulations they promulgate upon FFLs in CA. Remember what happened to Wal-Mart the largest FFL in CA?

No idea about daylight savings time.

No FFL is going to risk a fine or their license for an hour or even a few minutes of your time. If you want a faster firearms transaction, move to a free state that does not have a legislated waiting period.

mrdd
07-22-2012, 1:26 PM
When I DROS something, they note the exact time so I can pick it up exactly 240 hours later.

First question -- who enforces this? Suppose I were to show up a few minutes early and the dealer handed it over a couple of minutes early -- his clock was slow, he was lazy, any number of reasons. How is this time limit enforced?

Second question -- how does daylight saving enter into this?

If the clocks go back an hour during the wait and the FFL recognizes this, will he get in trouble for releasing it an hour early by the clock but still 240 hours later?

If the clocks go forward an hour during the wait and the FFL doesn't realize this, will he get in trouble for release it at the right clock time but only 239 hours later?

Q1: The FFL enforces it. To avoid mistakes, some FFLs make you wait 11 days, so the actual time of day when it is picked up is irrelevant.

Q2: DST is another reason some FFLs make you wait 11 days. It guarantees that at least 240 hours have elapsed before pick up.

Decoligny
07-22-2012, 1:32 PM
Q1: The FFL enforces it. To avoid mistakes, some FFLs make you wait 11 days, so the actual time of day when it is picked up is irrelevant.

Q2: DST is another reason some FFLs make you wait 11 days. It guarantees that at least 240 hours have elapsed before pick up.

Q1: DOJ enforces it. Enforcement is a matter of punishing those that do not folow the rules. If an FFL releases a firearm at 9 day 23 hours, then they did not comply, and then DOJ enforces the law and the FFL gets punished. There is no punishment for the gun owner who the FFL allows to pick up early.

mrdd
07-22-2012, 1:38 PM
Q1: DOJ enforces it. Enforcement is a matter of punishing those that do not folow the rules. If an FFL releases a firearm at 9 day 23 hours, then they did not comply, and then DOJ enforces the law and the FFL gets punished. There is no punishment for the gun owner who the FFL allows to pick up early.

You could look at it that way, but there is no practical way to know what time it was released. I guess they could do sting operations. But mostly they depend on the FFLs doing it according to the law.

littlejake
07-22-2012, 2:11 PM
It's 240 hours. Transitions from/to DST do not add or subtract from the 240 hours. Hence the dealer must figure the DST transition into the pickup time to assure 240 hours has lapsed.

Dreaded Claymore
07-22-2012, 2:18 PM
The DOJ enforces the law by inspecting FFLs. If they find violations, they punish the bejeezus out of the FFL.

mrdd
07-22-2012, 2:29 PM
The DOJ enforces the law by inspecting FFLs. If they find violations, they punish the bejeezus out of the FFL.

Where is the time of release actually documented? Not on the 4473, does not appear to be part of the DROS system.

EBR Works
07-22-2012, 2:34 PM
Pickup day and time are noted on the paper DROS form which is then retained by the FFL for a minimum of three years. The 4473 only shows the day of pickup and these are retained by the FFL for a minimum of twenty years.

mrdd
07-22-2012, 4:36 PM
Pickup day and time are noted on the paper DROS form which is then retained by the FFL for a minimum of three years. The 4473 only shows the day of pickup and these are retained by the FFL for a minimum of twenty years.

OK, you are right. The DROS form has a place for the pickup date and time. So, this information is not part of the electronic record sent to the DOJ?

EBR Works
07-22-2012, 4:51 PM
Nope.

dantodd
07-22-2012, 5:04 PM
You could look at it that way, but there is no practical way to know what time it was released. I guess they could do sting operations. But mostly they depend on the FFLs doing it according to the law.

who enforces the speed limit? who enforces laws against murder?

erik_26
07-22-2012, 5:09 PM
When I DROS something, they note the exact time so I can pick it up exactly 240 hours later.

First question -- who enforces this? Suppose I were to show up a few minutes early and the dealer handed it over a couple of minutes early -- his clock was slow, he was lazy, any number of reasons. How is this time limit enforced?


Who's to know you are speeding down the highway just a couple MPH over?


Well no one, unless you get caught. Think of radar enforcement as an audit.


Unless you get audited, advertise that you let people pick up guns early, or just have a blatant disregard for the law.... I doubt you would be found out if it happen by accident once or twice.


Besides, I am never 'in-and-out' with the FFL. Usually at least 10-15 minutes are killed BSing about this that and the other thing and checking out new inventory. So even if I showed up 5 minutes early, I wouldn't end up completing the transaction until 10 minutes passed.


As for the FFLs that make you wait 11, do what I did and find one that isn't afraid of the law and follows the 240 hr.

mrdd
07-22-2012, 5:11 PM
who enforces the speed limit? who enforces laws against murder?

In order to enforce the law, there has to be a way of identifying evidence of a crime. In this case, it is really up to the FFL to do things right and obey the law.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
07-22-2012, 5:28 PM
It's not unusual for the DOJ to wait until the final day to contact the FFL with a denial or delay. This allows them to remotely enforce the ten day rule.

dantodd
07-22-2012, 6:47 PM
In order to enforce the law, there has to be a way of identifying evidence of a crime. In this case, it is really up to the FFL to do things right and obey the law.

Like every law in the world. If there is no evidence that you killed you wife and kids is there a crime? Maybe the government should force you to certify that you didn't kill anyone each day by wearing a camera around all day and submitting the video at the end of the day.

Laws are punitive not preventative. The fact that the legislature doesn't understand that is more a reflection of their intentions and intelligence than fact.

Kappy
07-22-2012, 9:56 PM
When I DROS something, they note the exact time so I can pick it up exactly 240 hours later.

First question -- who enforces this? Suppose I were to show up a few minutes early and the dealer handed it over a couple of minutes early -- his clock was slow, he was lazy, any number of reasons. How is this time limit enforced?

Second question -- how does daylight saving enter into this?

If the clocks go back an hour during the wait and the FFL recognizes this, will he get in trouble for releasing it an hour early by the clock but still 240 hours later?

If the clocks go forward an hour during the wait and the FFL doesn't realize this, will he get in trouble for release it at the right clock time but only 239 hours later?

The time limit is enforced the same way IDing for alcohol is enforced. They do spot checking, document forensics, and undercover checks.

Daylight savings does not enter into it. It is 240 hours. That's it. Just because you turn the clock forward an hour or bring it back an hour doesn't mean that you have actually lived through an hour.

This, I suspect, is part of the reason why places like Big 5 don't actually go by 240 hours and just round to the next day. Who wants to lose a lucrative FFL license to a technicality like DST?

Scarecrow Repair
07-23-2012, 6:35 AM
Thanks for all the answers. But being enforced only by audits, or by undercover trolls, is not the only way it could be enforced. If the DROS pickup were noted by computer, same as the start of the period, the DoJ computers could always refuse to complete the pickup before the 240 hour limit. That was one of the possibilities which made me curious.

erik_26
07-23-2012, 8:08 AM
Thanks for all the answers. But being enforced only by audits, or by undercover trolls, is not the only way it could be enforced. If the DROS pickup were noted by computer, same as the start of the period, the DoJ computers could always refuse to complete the pickup before the 240 hour limit. That was one of the possibilities which made me curious.

People lie all the time.


There could be a shady FFL or an FFL that has close friends and doesn't serve the public.

He could have you fill out the paper work, post date the signature and hand over the gun same day.

As long as he remembers to go in and update the computer (or whatever) all is well.


I bet it does or at least has happened.

rp55
07-23-2012, 9:20 AM
Logically the next in the sequence of stupid questions would be "Who enforces the 1 in 30 days rule?" Since a buyer could go to different FFL's the FFL cannot enforce it. I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. What happens if someone does try to buy 2 handguns in less than 30 days?

Eddy's Shooting Sports
07-23-2012, 10:33 AM
The DOJ simply transmits a a 30 day denial to the dealer via the DROS system. They also call and mail the letter. It is up to the buyer to know if he is eligible to buy another handgun. There is no punishment for a 30 day denial other than having to pony up $25 for a new DROS.

A-J
07-23-2012, 2:14 PM
You could look at it that way, but there is no practical way to know what time it was released. I guess they could do sting operations. But mostly they depend on the FFLs doing it according to the law.

Actually, at Turner's, they will not start the "release" process until the date/time on the purchase paperwork, and every gun is checked out in the computer, which leaves an additional time stamp.

erik_26
07-23-2012, 6:02 PM
Just remember.....

239hrs & 59mins= Murderous rage

>240hrs= cooled off

hoffmang
07-23-2012, 9:35 PM
The funniest part is that CA DOJ has no underlying Penal Code to support the 240 hour rule - just "days."

CA DOJ - making up gun law since 1989!

-Gene

mmayer707
07-23-2012, 10:40 PM
The funniest part is that CA DOJ has no underlying Penal Code to support the 240 hour rule - just "days."

CA DOJ - making up gun law since 1989!

-Gene

Funny thing is, when someone turns 21 they don't have to show their birth certificate to prove which minute they were born in order to buy alcohol, or in this case buy a handgun. Their date of birth suffices. So by interpreting this law using "days" as it's unit of measurement, hours should not be the unit of measurement. Days should be the unit of measurement. I see no other way they should enforce it, yet they do. Reminds me of a lot of the I.R.S. laws (they enforce them the way they see fit).

mrdd
07-24-2012, 8:39 PM
Logically the next in the sequence of stupid questions would be "Who enforces the 1 in 30 days rule?" Since a buyer could go to different FFL's the FFL cannot enforce it. I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. What happens if someone does try to buy 2 handguns in less than 30 days?

That is easy. Since the DOJ is notified on submittal of a DROS, they can directly enforce the 1-in-30 limit.