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View Full Version : Gun control seems to get less support....


ap3572001
07-22-2012, 9:14 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/calls-gun-control-stir-little-support-132319718.html

SanPedroShooter
07-22-2012, 9:22 AM
I attribute this to new communication methods, including this website.

The lies, misinformation and propaganda of the nineties era gun grabbers is easily countered quickly and forcefully. Also the NRA CGF SAF etc... are very good at what they do and they get better every day.

A few Supreme court decsions and right to carry in 90% of the states doesnt hurt either.

NYsteveZ
07-22-2012, 9:37 AM
Surprisingly, even in the comment section of CNN which ran this same article, the majority of posts were against further gun control.

getafterit
07-22-2012, 10:02 AM
I for one feel that the folks that were on the fence, as well as others are starting to realize that our once free country is becoming more and more of a police state everyday.
That coupled with budget cuts that effect LEO's are making our streets less safe.
A few years back a local radio station in Arcata (not Arcadia) took calls on gun control, both for and against.
I listened for about an hour before calling in. Most of the calls were anti gunners calling in stating their view as to why "us" owning guns is a problem. Others were either on the fence or indifferent in one way or another.
I phoned in and gave a few examples of home invasions, hikers on remote trails etc that were assaulted or worse. I then gave a few examples of the same that were able to deter or disable the offender with no bodily harm to the victim.
After hanging up my call to listen to the audiences response there were two callers, one a male college student and the other an older woman, in her 60's (if my memeory serves me) that stated they felt compelled to buy a handgun and seek proper training.
Dont know if they ever followed thru or not but I feel that my five minute call got at least a few people thinking. And for those of you that know the little town of Arcata this achievement is just that.
As time goes on and assuming things get worse then more and more people will wake up. The only real question is if it will be too late.

SkyMag68
07-22-2012, 10:43 AM
American people got smarter and just fed up with Gun Grabber scheme.

Kodemonkey
07-22-2012, 11:04 AM
I've been watching the discussions among facebook friends of friends (not the echo chamber that is Calguns). Of course there are the people who think guns should be outlawed (one woman thinks only shotguns should be legal - didn't even know where to start with that). however, a growing number of people are starting to see this as a mental health problem. Not sure if it was because the shooter made explosives and it if guns were not available this guy would have blown everyone up. Or perhaps as a culture we recognize mental illness is real and maybe that is the true issue here.

The discussions I have had that proved to change minds in people who were on the fence had to do with root cause and didn't start with trying to defend gun ownership. I think the light is starting to go on for some people that it's not really about guns.

Ripon83
07-22-2012, 11:11 AM
I noticed they said Obama reiterates his defense of the 2nd amendment in his first speech on the topic, great, but how many years did he say he opposed gay marriage too? Likewise Romney once signed an AWB and now has the endorsement of the NRA. We're not in a great position, but if either one bails on the 2nd right now - they lose....that is a good thing.

ap3572001
07-22-2012, 11:32 AM
I have a couple of VERY liberal minded friends. BOTH went to Big 5 gun shopping.
One got a Mini 14 , the other picked up a lever action 30-30 and a 10/22

I NEVER thought they would own firearms since they were always against them.

A-J
07-22-2012, 11:40 AM
Maybe the general public has finally grasped the "slippery slope" concept. It doesn't hurt that NY is doing exactly that with the banning of large sized drinks "to combat obesity" when the #1 cause of obesity is "SOYA" syndrome. I know cause I have it.

Lugiahua
07-22-2012, 11:47 AM
There were a lot of anti-gun comment on web the first day
but soon died down as people pointed out that the gunner could easily getting guns even in some most strict country due to his condition and wealth, which rendered gun-control ineffective in this case.

donw
07-22-2012, 11:53 AM
for the largest part, i think most Americans, the freedom loving ones, see thru the Michael Bloombergs, Eric Holders and those like them, for what they are...biased, elitist, power-crazed, narcissists who happen to get into a position to exert the power of those places.

there are those who believe we have UNLIMITED rights pertaining to firearms, there are those who believe we have NO rights pertaining to firearms...somewhere in between is where the masses lie.

i believe the masses are convinced we have the right to own firearms, but how we use them and what kind of firearms we have is more the issue.

Sen Feinstein, obviously, has limited knowledge of firearms and should stick to her field of expertise...whatever that is...

actually, i feel pity for her and those like her and Yee, Portantino, deleon etc. they are truly poor, pathetic beings trying to overcome their inadequacies by stepping on us. they're trying to stretch a mosquitoes belly over a rain barrel.

mag360
07-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Quoting Adam Winkler Gunfight author here, "As a country, we need our leaders to sit down and think about gun laws in more comprehensive, less incremental terms. Unfortunately, the Dark Knight shootings in Colorado, like the previous tragedies in Columbine, Tucson, and Fort Hood, aren’t likely to inspire such political action."

What does that mean? What is he vying for? Is he leading the anti's in a circuitous fashion that he secretly knows won't go anywhere? or does "comprehensive" mean he's pushing for English style law where your gun is kept at the hunting club and you can't have a semi-auto.

From: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/20/why-don-t-mass-shootings-lead-to-gun-control.html FYI pause the video or Bloomberg's stupidity will force you to break your computer.

jonkull
07-22-2012, 12:13 PM
I have a couple of VERY liberal minded friends. BOTH went to Big 5 gun shopping.
One got a Mini 14 , the other picked up a lever action 30-30 and a 10/22

I NEVER thought they would own firearms since they were always against them.

That's one of the problems with liberal vs conservative. It's not a black and white world. I lean quite liberal on most issues but I enjoy shooting and I'm anti gun control. All of my friends are liberal and a bunch of them enjoy shooting too.

ap3572001
07-22-2012, 12:26 PM
That's one of the problems with liberal vs conservative. It's not a black and white world. I lean quite liberal on most issues but I enjoy shooting and I'm anti gun control. All of my friends are liberal and a bunch of them enjoy shooting too.

I agree.
One of my partners from work is dating a nurse who hated guns.
Now she is is on Her second Glock ... and REALLY knows how to use them.

I had them over a coule of weeks ago. She could not stay away from my safe LOL.

jonkull
07-22-2012, 1:34 PM
I think one of the bigger problems is educated vs uneducated. One of my coworkers found out that I own an AR and went off on a 'why do you need a machine gun?' rant. She really didn't get that I don't own a machine gun. It took some convincing.

Dreaded Claymore
07-22-2012, 2:13 PM
That's one of the problems with liberal vs conservative. It's not a black and white world. I lean quite liberal on most issues but I enjoy shooting and I'm anti gun control. All of my friends are liberal and a bunch of them enjoy shooting too.

Same here. I'm another liberal Calgunner. And I love me some military-style assault weapons. :gunsmilie:

SilverTauron
07-22-2012, 2:15 PM
Gun control's national lack of support id track to several events taking place simultaneously.

The most important factor is the Internet. I wasn't involved in the shooting sports in the 1990s, but I do remember as a kid the media doing the same blitz with the Clinton era ban that's happening now with regard to gun control. Calling AR15s assault weapons and blaring slanted news pieces in the mid 1990s was more powerful when the only sources for news were the TV and the newspaper.

Now,younger people today-including myself-don't carry a landline cable connection for TV.Its telling that one of my class assignments on media relations mentioned acceptance of online re-broadcasts as permitted source materials. When my classmates were polled on who had cable TV , only two hands out of 20 came up. Whether MSNBC and company realize it or not, they're sinking into obsolescence. Watching the news is going the way of VHS tapes, which means the traditional indoctrination which got bad gun laws advanced in the 90s and before doesn't work today. No one's watching.

On the flip side, the internet helps the RKBA movement bypass the mainstream media on getting our message heard. So long as the only way to reach the common man was through Channel Five like it was in the 1990s, the only way for our rights to go was down. How can you advance the RKBA when you discuss it with 5 people, and the news convinces 100 gun control is good? Today, Channel 5 has to compete with THR, Calguns, TTAG, Google, youtube, hulu....the list goes on.


Second, is the national realization today that government cannot protect you . In the 90s, the economy was doing well, the stock markets and real estate industries were seeing new highs, and technology was the newest and coolest thing.

Then 2000 rolled around and the party ended. Dot coms went bust, Enron and Worldcom imploded with the resulting jail sentences and lost money, September 11th , Katrina, then the Mortgage Debt Bubble popped sending the global economy into the ditch. Between 1999 and today those disasters granted the masses an understanding of the need for personal defense. If the government can't get water to a city inside of 14 days, how are they going to protect you from gangs and looters? Gun control is easy to support when you live in Beverly Hills. Its a different proposition when a job loss and rising expenses force you to stay someplace that looks more like 1980s Beirut.

Third, the advent of CCWs proved once and for all the anti's arguments are as relevant as the Flat Earth Theory. For decades the statement from the Disarmament Lobby has always been the more guns in circulation, the more people are going to be shot. Shall issue CCW? Why, the insanity! People will be shot dead in traffic for road rage!

Once those laws were passed and CCW permits issued, surpise. No rivers of blood or high noon gunfights in the streets of shall issue America. Meanwhile in strong gun law districts like Chicago and D.C.,those places are so dangerous in parts you're better off doing a frontline combat tour in Afghanistan. The media might not talk about it, but the average citizen's noticing how the bloodiest cities in America aren't in Texas or Montana.

Those factors are combining to see the "Remington Renaissance ' in America today. The downside? Anti gun strongholds like CA will only double down as time goes on. There's still millions of misguided folks living and voting in NJ, IL, CA, NY, HI, MD,MA who are still stuck in the 1990s with regard to gun control support. Dragging those states into the present will take longer on account of litigation, the dedication of politicians to do what it takes to retain office, and the general social and legal difficulty in bringing new shooters into the fold in states like that. In South Dakota, all I need do to bring a newbie to the range is jump in the car. In New York, the process is a lot more involved with commensurately greater risk of jail time for all participants. Licensing rules and legal barriers not only serve to harrass lawful gun owners but also block introduction of new shooters into the fold.

Convincing a non-involved person to go to the range is difficult enough. Good luck getting an anti to attend a session when they have to submit to an intrusive and expensive government probe just to hit the firing line.

ICONIC
07-22-2012, 2:22 PM
I think there is less support for gun control due to two things.

1) more Americans own guns and own AR-15s
2) What happened in Colorado, could not have prevented. Look at the shooter. Graduated top of his class from UCR, was in Med School, comes from a middle class background. People described him as polite and unassuming. He does not fit the mold of a psycho loner outside who listens to death metal and wears a trenchcoat. Many people feel that this guy was under the radar and this tragedy could not have been prevented.

safewaysecurity
07-22-2012, 2:36 PM
Same here. I'm another liberal Calgunner. And I love me some military-style assault weapons. :gunsmilie:

You realize that a picture of you smiling next to Colin Goddard exists on the internet right? Don't you also support national legislation that would effectively ban private party sales?

Mr_Monkeywrench
07-22-2012, 2:51 PM
This is what it is. The internet is the modern information dissemination as the printing press was to the Renaissance period. The FUD of the dark ages was wiped away due to the availability of cheap, easily accessible, widely available, information through print. The internet allows even the poorest slob in the country access mountains of information and allows for a differing view from main stream media; breaking the FUD spread by statist propaganda. This is happening more and more with our civil rights (gun control, economic control, etc.) and our freedoms.

Glorious, I know.

mag360
07-22-2012, 3:02 PM
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj541/rkba84/WillyWonka.jpg

cmaynes
07-22-2012, 3:11 PM
as another liberal Calgunner- (with "assault" rifles)

I have to say the key statistic which destroys gun control is the notion that guns create crime- and that taking guns away stop crime- that has never been proven, and likely nnever will be, especially seeing countries like Norway and Finland with huge private gun ownership, absolutely unrestricted suppressor laws (hint) and great crime rates, and low prison populations.

AeroEngi
07-22-2012, 3:18 PM
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/AeroEngi/catch_media_20120722-151546.jpg

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

dantodd
07-22-2012, 3:23 PM
From: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/20/why-don-t-mass-shootings-lead-to-gun-control.html

In the wake of this tragedy Mr. Winkler appears to have lost his interest in presenting a clinical, less biased look at the facts and issues surrounding gun rights and gun control.

mag360
07-22-2012, 4:18 PM
In the wake of this tragedy Mr. Winkler appears to have lost his interest in presenting a clinical, less biased look at the facts and issues surrounding gun rights and gun control.

it is much, much different than his discussion in Gunfight.

DeanC
07-22-2012, 4:58 PM
That's one of the problems with liberal vs conservative. It's not a black and white world. I lean quite liberal on most issues but I enjoy shooting and I'm anti gun control. All of my friends are liberal and a bunch of them enjoy shooting too.

This. I'm quite liberal on most issues as well yet today was my second range trip with my home built AR (ok, half home built. The upper came complete from PSA). 2nd Amendment rights are less and less of a left/right issue all the time.

Demonicspire
07-22-2012, 5:01 PM
I'm not surprised the support for control is dropping. Libertarian ideologies (not ron paul lol) have become more popular, as has the idea that personal freedoms should be taken seriously like the legalization of all drugs and gay marriage, and in that mindset it seems silly not to support another civil liberty, firearms ownership.

Its odd the revulsion some people have to firearms given the pleased reception they receive in film and videogames. What's not to like? They're nifty pieces of machinery.

Steyr_223
07-22-2012, 5:07 PM
I have a couple of VERY liberal minded friends. BOTH went to Big 5 gun shopping.
One got a Mini 14 , the other picked up a lever action 30-30 and a 10/22

I NEVER thought they would own firearms since they were always against them.

Same here, earlier this year helped a few lib/dem/Progressive friends to become gun owners and took also took 6 more to the range for the 1st time..Since the Aurora shootings a few of them have contacted me asking about where to get OLL ARs and AKs..Weird, I would have thought the recent shooting would have turned them off..

adampolo13
07-22-2012, 5:58 PM
I have a very good friend who is as liberal as they come, anti-gun and all. Last weekend he went to vegas for a bachelor party and got his butt dragged out to the range. He almost immediately called me to beg me to take him shooting. He quickly realized how much fun guns can be, yes they are deadly, but they also serve a multitude of purposes outside of self defense. More and more this is happening everyday, esp with women. The guys at my local shop tell me women are buying more guns than ever before... lets keep it up!

Dreaded Claymore
07-22-2012, 6:03 PM
You realize that a picture of you smiling next to Colin Goddard exists on the internet right? Don't you also support national legislation that would effectively ban private party sales?

Hah, thanks for reminding me. I was laughing in that picture because Colin Goddard had no idea how effectively we (Calguns) were working against him.

My position on private party sales is quite a bit more nuanced than "ban them." When we talked about that, I said that, hypothetically, if a compromise was offered where we ended registration (DROS), 10-day waits, the handgun roster, and the autoloading rifle ban, in exchange for an instant background check on every transaction whether retail or private, I'd support it.

The thing is, the anti-gun bigots' idea of "compromise" is, they take half of our rights now and half later instead of taking everything now. I don't think they're going to offer a real compromise anytime soon.

adampolo13
07-22-2012, 6:05 PM
They don't want to compromise. "No discussion, no debate"

vantec08
07-22-2012, 6:34 PM
Yes, OP - - - its is getting better. Look how many times the MSM like ABC, NBC, and CNN have been busted for lying in last couple years. Fox news just continues to sail on.

safewaysecurity
07-22-2012, 6:53 PM
Hah, thanks for reminding me. I was laughing in that picture because Colin Goddard had no idea how effectively we (Calguns) were working against him.

My position on private party sales is quite a bit more nuanced than "ban them." When we talked about that, I said that, hypothetically, if a compromise was offered where we ended registration (DROS), 10-day waits, the handgun roster, and the autoloading rifle ban, in exchange for an instant background check on every transaction whether retail or private, I'd support it.

The thing is, the anti-gun bigots' idea of "compromise" is, they take half of our rights now and half later instead of taking everything now. I don't think they're going to offer a real compromise anytime soon.

I don't think we should negotiate with the enemy. We should win. Private citizens selling arms to each other without government interference is our right as human beings. We have the right to transfer the ability and the means to protect ourselves to others. I know many consider themselves "pro-gun" because they truly believe that less gun control is better for society as far as crime in concerned, and I believe that too. But I would still be "pro-gun" even if all of the evidence showed that easier access and less gun regulation led to more crime. Because at the end of the day it's an individual natural right and my right to protect myself and own what I please is fundamental regardless of the statistics.

mag360
07-22-2012, 8:45 PM
one thing I keep repeating to people and getting no answer is this:

Why have semi auto guns functionally identical to the modern AR-15 pattern guns been around for 100 years and yet these mass killings have only popped up in the past 30 years. The guns haven't changed...

marksolar
07-22-2012, 9:32 PM
This has also happened to me ..... I have a good libtard friend that voted for his highness. I just kind of avoided gun talk around him, except when I would give him some pheasant or duck I shot.

One day, out of the blue, he asks me if I want to go shooting. Come to find out his son bought a Glock and he turns around and purchases his own 45. This was about 1 year ago.
He now owns 2 - 45s, 9mm, ar15, 1919a4 w/tripod and accessories, and last week he picked up n AK. I have a shotgun waiting for him.
They roll over fast if you give em a chance !!!!!
I'm real proud of him ...... and I am now telling him if he really likes his guns, be very careful who you vote for.

tpc13
07-22-2012, 9:34 PM
We don't need more gun control. We need to change the way people think. What I mean is that if u commit a crime with a gun then we take off your head. Equal justice, hmm u say I'm too harsh really well have u ever been a Victim. Put guns in citizens hands by way of more CCWs and we can protect ourselves. Eye for and eye is what we need. Now Pelosi, Feinstein, Clinton are three people that look at this all wrong, oh but we can't tell them that especially cause they won't listen. What needs to be fixed is our penal system in regards to the death penalty and/or keeping more people in jail where they belong.
Everyone gets out of jail and there is no accountability. What u need is put fear back into criminals minds that if u do the crime u pay the time. Right now if u commit a crime u get probation or county parolee. What a joke that is with the lack of law enforcement job being filled do to no money. Bottom line STOP creating more gun laws we don't need because they just get out of jail and it's only going to effect good citizens. Bad people will still commit crimes with stolen guns or knives. . Instead of spending millions regarding gun control put money where it belongs in law enforcement and corrections and no more early release programs. Ask yourself when u are driving do u slow down when u see a police man or highway patrol. The answer is yes we all slow down, but if no cop is around then we just speed up. That tells u that police presence should be everywhere. If there would of been a police officer cruising through the theatre parking lot then it might not of happened in Colorado. We need more POLICE on the streets!!!

ruchik
07-22-2012, 9:37 PM
I can't remember where I originally read it, but I think more and more people are getting that light bulb switched on in their heads, summarized nicely by this short ditty:

PEOPLE ASK WHY

Why I Carry a Gun


I don't carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.


I don't carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.


I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.


I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the
world and the necessity to protect myself from it.


I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the constitutional limitations of government.


I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating
myself for failing to be prepared to protect my family and property.


I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and
not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.


I don't carry a gun just because I'm constitutionally guaranteed this right.
I carry a gun because history has proven it to be the final defense against
a tyrannical, oppressive, police state-type of government.


I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a superior person.
I carry a gun because only those prepared know how to take care
of themselves and the ones they love.

I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because being unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am
inadequate and probably get killed.


I don't carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful
to me.

TempleKnight
07-22-2012, 9:49 PM
I don't think we should negotiate with the enemy. We should win.

I'll accept an incremental approach. Get rid of CGA68 this week and get rid of NFA34 next week.

acolytes
07-22-2012, 10:03 PM
I think there are more and more gun owners now adays also. I myself have introduced atleast 25 people to shooting. Every person I have taken shooting has become addicted, and most of them now have a larger collection than me. The kicker is, they are all liberals.

camsoup
07-22-2012, 10:14 PM
I noticed they said Obama reiterates his defense of the 2nd amendment in his first speech on the topic, great, but how many years did he say he opposed gay marriage too? Likewise Romney once signed an AWB and now has the endorsement of the NRA. We're not in a great position, but if either one bails on the 2nd right now - they lose....that is a good thing.

Romney actually made an already on the books AWB PERMANENT in his State as governor, and now the NRA backs him? Talk about choosing the lessor of two evils.

jamesob
07-22-2012, 10:19 PM
If Obama get re-elected rest assured it will be front and center.

Dreaded Claymore
07-22-2012, 10:39 PM
PEOPLE ASK WHY

Why I Carry a Gun

Thank you so much for leaving out the "cowboy" one, which was stupid.

CBruce
07-23-2012, 12:00 AM
I have a couple of VERY liberal minded friends. BOTH went to Big 5 gun shopping.
One got a Mini 14 , the other picked up a lever action 30-30 and a 10/22

I NEVER thought they would own firearms since they were always against them.

I'm a liberal. And a gun-owner. Fairly recent gun owner. I've entertained the notion of owning a gun for many years because my family owns guns, hunts, some of them are law enforcement officers. But I never had anthing more powerful than a pellet gun.

What finally made me snap was having my wife call me up while I was at work and tell me that two guys just hopped the fence in our back yard, ran across, and hopped the neighbor's fence. Turns out, it was two members of a local gang fleeing a B&E two doors down.

My wife and kids were home alone. The back patio door was open. That was the day I realized that the police and military can't protect us. The police will be there after the fact to collect evidence and, if we're lucky, catch the criminals.

I can't not have some basic protection. It's simply irresponsible.

That said, some of you guys are still to intense for me. It's one thing to be open-minded and recognize the possiblity of the citizens of this country needing to rise up and overthrow a corrupt government, to respect that a well-armed civilian population is critical for a functional free-democracy (can look at Syria or Egypt for great examples of that)...but some of you guys just seem to be itching for this to actually happen here in America.

kaligaran
07-23-2012, 12:29 AM
I agree it's not a dem vs rep issue. There are many politicians on both sides that vary greatly on their views of the gun control debate. If their opinions do not match that of their party, they keep quiet OR they sacrifice their integrity and flip-flop. They shift with the wind to get backing and money from their parties and their voters. That's what politics has become.

I don't believe that candidates necessarily believe everything they campaign for, BUT they DO believe it will help them win an election. Whether they take action on what they say or don't say is a whole different issue.

As the yahoo article the OP posted points out, neither party seems interested in jumping head first into bed with this issue because of potential political loss.

So many people are blinded by their side or the hatred for the other (whichever they may be). I don't think an American exists that can honestly look at any existing candidate/party track record and agree 100% with it. This applies well to the gun control issues.

Gray Peterson
07-23-2012, 2:03 AM
That said, some of you guys are still to intense for me. It's one thing to be open-minded and recognize the possiblity of the citizens of this country needing to rise up and overthrow a corrupt government, to respect that a well-armed civilian population is critical for a functional free-democracy (can look at Syria or Egypt for great examples of that)...but some of you guys just seem to be itching for this to actually happen here in America.

I would say "few" rather than "some". What they don't understand is that unless you enjoy the idea of your children and your spouse being vivisected alive by partisans while being forced to watch, then they should sit their asses down and not do it.

We are nowhere near Egypt or Syria or any such thing. Go outside, look to the left, look to your right? Are your neighbors arming themselves for battle with the government? If not, get your *** back inside.

Don't be a hero for the country. Be a hero for your own family and loved ones first, above all else. Ideas do not feed your family and get them potable water in an SHTF situation.

RJohnson
07-23-2012, 2:03 AM
The elected officials I had dinner with last night say that even though the media is down playing the gun control aspect of this latest massacre there will be several new gun control measures introduced as a result.

Gray Peterson
07-23-2012, 2:14 AM
The elected officials I had dinner with last night say that even though the media is down playing the gun control aspect of this latest massacre there will be several new gun control measures introduced as a result.

You can introduce any bill you want. The question is whether it will get any traction.

nicki
07-23-2012, 3:26 AM
The elected officials I had dinner with last night say that even though the media is down playing the gun control aspect of this latest massacre there will be several new gun control measures introduced as a result.

If you are on speaking terms with these politicians, I would suggest to them that rather than focus efforts on new gun control laws that won't make a difference that they instead focus on dealing with why this guy and others went on their rampages in the first place.

IMHO, all these mass shooters want "attention" and when they go on a mass shooting spree, they get "massive media attention", not for minutes, but for as long as the story can run.

Holmes has the same **** eating grin as Loughner does, they are on top of the world, they have effected millions of people, in their minds, they now matter alot, they are infamous.

If the politicians wanted to do something what they would do is a news blackout on suspect's face, his name and his motive.

If the politicians who you dined with think that banning above XX size magazines or so called "assault rifles" would make a difference, you may want to ask them how is the drug prohibition working out.

If the gun grabbers ever got their way and got a gun ban, the current black market in illegal military grade arms would explode and instead of bad guys with semi auto lookalike AWs, what you would have instead is the real deal.

Nicki

vantec08
07-23-2012, 6:52 AM
That said, some of you guys are still to intense for me. It's one thing to be open-minded and recognize the possiblity of the citizens of this country needing to rise up and overthrow a corrupt government, to respect that a well-armed civilian population is critical for a functional free-democracy (can look at Syria or Egypt for great examples of that)...but some of you guys just seem to be itching for this to actually happen here in America.



I get what you're saying. They across to me as impatiently anticipating the final act in a LOUSY play that needs to be put to rest -- similar to going to the dentist. You KNOW it has to be done. This society is so far off the map of the founders intent and what "works", it will probably take an insurrection (possibly armed) to change it. Many want to see that happen in their lifetimes, and for some us, that is mostly behind us.

ArcherDog
07-23-2012, 7:40 AM
If Obama get re-elected rest assured it will be front and center.

Because he's had 4 years to enact his draconian measures but hasn't got around to it yet? Taking quite the gamble that he'll have his chance in years 5-8, no? :rolleyes:

I wish the Righties here would at least commend Obama for his reaction to both this and the Giffords shooting. Granted he used both to push his healthcare reform for greater mental health awareness, but I didn't hear a single bit about wanting to revisit our gun control laws.

I've been fighting the good fight all weekend on message boards and Facebook to those who think the 2nd Amendment was merely some compromise the Founding Fathers included in the 1700's and that it has no relevance today. I also enjoy pointing out to the folks that think scary black "assault rifles" should be banned because they have no sporting value, that 1) It sounds like Holmes didn't get off many shots with the AR due to a jammed magazine and needed to resort to his shotgun, and 2) You can kill as many or more with Grandpa's 30-30 rifle hanging over the fireplace, just ask Charles Whitman.

mag360
07-23-2012, 7:41 AM
Just listening to npr and they had winkler on whyy fm back east but they also have a european saying that norway felt if they further regulated guns it would be giving in to terror so they did not push for any gun bans.

vantec08
07-23-2012, 7:58 AM
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2012/07/so-that-this-never-happens-again.html


The power of the individual to do good comes from a sense of individual responsibility. Take away that responsibility and the country begins to rot. Bury it deep enough and there are only sheep waiting for a wolf.

javalos
07-23-2012, 8:07 AM
Many Americans have wised up, we've had decades of gun control and its shown itself to be a failure. The claims by the anti-gun crowd of a violent free utopia only if guns are restricted or banned are no longer taken seriously and it shows, many anti-gun organizations are a shadow of what they once were.

vantec08
07-23-2012, 8:09 AM
Many Americans have wised up, we've had decades of gun control and its shown itself to be a failure. The claims by the anti-gun crowd of a violent free utopia only if guns are restricted or banned are no longer taken seriously and it shows, many anti-gun organizations are a shadow of what they once were.


Perhaps .. . . just MAYBE . .. . it is the beginning of the natural death of liberalism - a massive failure.

advocatusdiaboli
07-23-2012, 8:12 AM
There are a significant number of politicians who will introduce bills at crucial points in the election-reelection cycle to pander to their base to ensure they gain or remain in office. When an event such as the event in Aurora occurs, those on the anti-firearm side strike while the iron is hot so new proposals for more firearm control are inevitable as a consequence. There are no such watershed events that aid the other other pro-firearm side which is why we seen mostly more restrictive firearms legislation.

No one wants to deal with the root cause of events like that: the increasing de-socialization, selfishness, desensitization, and isolation of people due to technology. We are being slowly dehumanized by technology making inhumane behavior easier than ever before. this enables unstable people to desire to plan and execute such events undetected and undeterred by conscience or care for fellow human beings. Until we focus on that root cause, those events will continue to occur.

dave_cg
07-23-2012, 8:29 AM
one thing I keep repeating to people and getting no answer is this:

Why have semi auto guns functionally identical to the modern AR-15 pattern guns been around for 100 years and yet these mass killings have only popped up in the past 30 years. The guns haven't changed...

Mental health care has changed, dramatically. Face it, health care in this country is broken. (Obama-care isn't the answer, but at least it is thinking about the problem.) Mental health care is the most broken of the broken. About thirty years ago laws regarding mental health care, in particular the laws regarding forcing people to get treatment, changed a lot. They *were* broken, in that patient's rights were sometimes abused. But the pendulum swung too far. Now it is very hard to legally help people who refuse treatment but truly need it. Many of the homeless fall into that category, and is a huge contributor to the homeless problem. Mass shooters are mentally ill. I'm not sure how the CO shooter could have been identified and helped before the tragedy, but that is the challenge for us as a society.

Zman11
07-23-2012, 8:40 AM
The yahoo article is a misdirect, and a very carefully crafted one at that. Most people are still caught up in the illusory game of partisan politics, for this reason they are that much more eager to hear about how this is in actuality only a partisan issue. Further, the fact the article seems to only cater around the NRA, and it's political contributions and lobbying efforts, says nothing about the polls and perceptions which have changed among the minds of US citizens. This has less to do with NRA contributions as it has to do with the obvious failure of increased gun control over the years to contribute to any meaningful decrease in violence. In most, if not all cases, we saw the exact opposite.

Between the global economic downturn, an increasingly militarized police force, erosion of our Constitutional liberties, a selectively enforced Justice system, and criminals with increasingly less to lose, people are quickly coming to the realization that things are anything but fine in this country. I am not a member of the NRA, but do I need to be to understand that the most well-armed countries have some of the lowest murder rates? One need look only to Brazil or Mexico to realize that harsher gun control laws only prevent law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves and allow criminals to operate with impunity.

More than even statistical evidence that gun control does not work, something altogether far more sinister has surfaced recently in the Fast and Furious Case. I think that this failed program has done much more harm to the unified call for increased gun control than most estimate. The fact that there were emails from the top officials in the Phoenix office stating they were looking for 'anecdotal' evidence to help push a new long gun form, the fact there was no way to trace these thousands of guns once they 'walked', the fact that it was known previous to this program through diplomatic cables that the existing arms were actually primarily coming, not from US gun shows, but from foreign military sales, direct private defense sales, and arsenals from various Latin American countries (link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/28/americas-war-arming-mexican-cartels/#ixzz21ScR8N4r)), all tend to indicate the USG was looking to create artificially a 'statistic' which would have been very meaningful in the hands of politicians looking to impose new legislation, had Officer Brian Terry not been killed in the process.

The pattern has been so predictable for so long that the people pulling the strings became too comfortable, for this reason they got sloppy. Now that some people are exposed to the pattern, it's much harder to put everything back neatly in the same box and sell it. Most people are just not buying it anymore, and they shouldn't. We've been conditioned to believe the nonsense for too long.

ap3572001
07-23-2012, 8:43 AM
Same here, earlier this year helped a few lib/dem/Progressive friends to become gun owners and took also took 6 more to the range for the 1st time..Since the Aurora shootings a few of them have contacted me asking about where to get OLL ARs and AKs..Weird, I would have thought the recent shooting would have turned them off..

Yeah. I know what You mean. People who live a couple of houses away from me have a daughter visiting them from college for the summer. Her parents knocked on my door and asked if I can take Her shooting with Her brand new SIG 239. I took Her and She told that She likes Her Sig better than Her boyfriends Glock . Never thought we would be having this conversation........

Mesa Tactical
07-23-2012, 8:45 AM
If Obama get re-elected rest assured it will be front and center.

I kept hearing that about the last guy, that once he got re-elected, he'd get rid of a lot of Federal gun control.

vantec08
07-23-2012, 8:58 AM
Mental health care has changed, dramatically. Face it, health care in this country is broken. (Obama-care isn't the answer, but at least it is thinking about the problem.) Mental health care is the most broken of the broken. About thirty years ago laws regarding mental health care, in particular the laws regarding forcing people to get treatment, changed a lot. They *were* broken, in that patient's rights were sometimes abused. But the pendulum swung too far. Now it is very hard to legally help people who refuse treatment but truly need it. Many of the homeless fall into that category, and is a huge contributor to the homeless problem. Mass shooters are mentally ill. I'm not sure how the CO shooter could have been identified and helped before the tragedy, but that is the challenge for us as a society.

The "challenge" for us is that criminality has become acceptable. I recall when if one was even charged with a serious crime, he/she did not get unlimited support from their neighborhood, political party, or church. The excuses and copouts have lowered the bar on ALL crime. A poverty background (MILLIONS come from that and arent criminals), mentally ill (which frequently means knows right from wrong but can be stretched), the desire to hold inanimate objects accountable rather than people, the simple refusal to accept that there is evil in this world. I'm not sure either if the CO dude could have been "identified", and dont know that it would matter.

jamesob
07-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Because he's had 4 years to enact his draconian measures but hasn't got around to it yet? Taking quite the gamble that he'll have his chance in years 5-8, no? :rolleyes:

I wish the Righties here would at least commend Obama for his reaction to both this and the Giffords shooting. Granted he used both to push his healthcare reform for greater mental health awareness, but I didn't hear a single bit about wanting to revisit our gun control laws.

I've been fighting the good fight all weekend on message boards and Facebook to those who think the 2nd Amendment was merely some compromise the Founding Fathers included in the 1700's and that it has no relevance today. I also enjoy pointing out to the folks that think scary black "assault rifles" should be banned because they have no sporting value, that 1) It sounds like Holmes didn't get off many shots with the AR due to a jammed magazine and needed to resort to his shotgun, and 2) You can kill as many or more with Grandpa's 30-30 rifle hanging over the fireplace, just ask Charles Whitman.

first of all, we didn't have the mass shooting during his first 4 years(vt was handguns ). then there is the fact that he won't be able to run for president again. then we have him accomplishing his main goal already ( healthcare ).then we have elections that can change the dynamics of the house. if he does get re elected it will get brought up with out a doubt.
and your story is a little backwords. he started of with the shotgun from what i have read.

Mesa Tactical
07-23-2012, 11:27 AM
Just listening to npr and they had winkler on whyy fm back east but they also have a european saying that norway felt if they further regulated guns it would be giving in to terror so they did not push for any gun bans.

I always liked Norway.

kaligaran
07-23-2012, 12:06 PM
No one wants to deal with the root cause of events like that: the increasing de-socialization, selfishness, desensitization, and isolation of people due to technology. We are being slowly dehumanized by technology making inhumane behavior easier than ever before. this enables unstable people to desire to plan and execute such events undetected and undeterred by conscience or care for fellow human beings. Until we focus on that root cause, those events will continue to occur.

I respectfully disagree. Serial killers, mass killing sprees, random acts of violence, etc have been around all humankind's history. Violent acts are actually less common now than ever (google if you don't believe me). :)

Acts of violence have only become more publicized, not more common, since the invention of the printing press, television, internet, etc.
Now I will not deny that of the current day events, those may be motivated by mentally unstable individuals looking to be immortal in history through the widespread publicity.


You are less likely to die a violent death today than at any other time in human history. In fact, violence has been on a steady decline for centuries now.
That's the claim made by Harvard University cognitive neuroscientist in his book, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined.

ArcherDog
07-23-2012, 12:55 PM
first of all, we didn't have the mass shooting during his first 4 years(vt was handguns ). then there is the fact that he won't be able to run for president again. then we have him accomplishing his main goal already ( healthcare ).then we have elections that can change the dynamics of the house. if he does get re elected it will get brought up with out a doubt.
and your story is a little backwords. he started of with the shotgun from what i have read.

Sorry if I don't buy the fact that all of a sudden Obama (who has had numerous gun related tragedies to institute some form of gun control; Giffords, Aurora, F&F, Fort Hood) is going to go all in on gun controls. That's of course assuming the House doesn't change hands again (which seems unlikely). It's more NRA FUD to squeeze more donations out of their most gullible members.

Secondly, you might be right about the shotgun first, but that reinforces the same point that the deadliest weapon used in the rampage was probably the one least likely to be banned if severe gun controls are imposed. Everybody wants to limit "assault" rifles and handguns, shotguns are friendly little duck shooters.

jamesob
07-23-2012, 1:08 PM
Sorry if I don't buy the fact that all of a sudden Obama (who has had numerous gun related tragedies to institute some form of gun control; Giffords, Aurora, F&F, Fort Hood) is going to go all in on gun controls. That's of course assuming the House doesn't change hands again (which seems unlikely). It's more NRA FUD to squeeze more donations out of their most gullible members.

Secondly, you might be right about the shotgun first, but that reinforces the same point that the deadliest weapon used in the rampage was probably the one least likely to be banned if severe gun controls are imposed. Everybody wants to limit "assault" rifles and handguns, shotguns are friendly little duck shooters.

true, the nra will use it to muster up money. i personally don't belong to the nra and most likely never will. the fact is that the ar jammed and he didn't or couldn't fix it. now did it jam after 90 or 5 rounds? we don't know yet. but the antis will use the 100 rnd drum and the ar as a killing machine instead of what was between the guys ears as the killing machine. i'm with you that the shotgun is a more deadly weapon in a confined area like a movie theater. when it comes out, i bet that most were killed by shotgun blast. in fact the report said that at least 1 was killed without being shot most likely being trampled.