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View Full Version : Civilians can't see or touch off-list weapons?


JackRydden224
07-18-2012, 9:30 PM
While I was at Ammo Bros Ontario picking up my SR22 today I asked one of the employees there if he can show me the XDm. I made it clear that I understand I cannot buy it since it is off list. I just wanted to see it and handle it. He then told me that since I'm not LE he cannot even take it out of the display case.

Is this true?

ke6guj
07-18-2012, 9:35 PM
32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.


that's the law regarding unsafe handguns. There is an exemption for LE sales. Does the act of pulling the handgun out of the case to let you fondle it violate 3200?

JackRydden224
07-18-2012, 9:38 PM
32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

I would assume that an off-roster handgun even without a magazine is considered to be dangerous? Really, California, REALLY?

Good Lord I shouldn't be surprised. If anything the manufacturers should file a joint law suit against the state of California for interfering with free commerce.

pdq_wizzard
07-18-2012, 9:44 PM
find another gun shop, I can fondle any gun in the LEO case at the shop in town.

pdq_wizzard
07-18-2012, 9:46 PM
32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.


that's the law regarding unsafe handguns. There is an exemption for LE sales. Does the act of pulling the handgun out of the case to let you fondle it violate 3200?

Its not a gun with out ammo, its just a brick. :D

five.five-six
07-18-2012, 9:49 PM
The point of letting your fondle and risk damage is to entice you to buy it, if you CAN'T buy it, why should they risk your scratching it up :confused:

IrishPirate
07-18-2012, 9:54 PM
did he say it was against the law, or against the rules?

Ron-Solo
07-18-2012, 10:09 PM
The point of letting your fondle and risk damage is to entice you to buy it, if you CAN'T buy it, why should they risk your scratching it up :confused:

did he say it was against the law, or against the rules?

This is what I'm thinking. Scratched guns don't sell as easy.

hornswaggled
07-18-2012, 10:54 PM
That would end my gun buying relationship with that shop. I won't buy any guns from shops that refuse to do SSEs while other gun shops are going the extra mile to get civilians the handguns they should be entitled to. Even if I want a rifle, I take my business to the DAS'es and Parallax Tacticals of the world. Shops that do SSEs get ALL my gun business.

rromeo
07-19-2012, 3:38 AM
The title is misleading, because generally the reverse is true.

halifax
07-19-2012, 5:32 AM
Here is a related thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=596936

choprzrul
07-19-2012, 6:11 AM
If a gun is deamed to be unsafe, and a LEO shoots me with one, would that open up the LEO and his department to civil lawsuits?

Has it been tried yet?

.

Connor P Price
07-19-2012, 6:19 AM
If a gun is deamed to be unsafe, and a LEO shoots me with one, would that open up the LEO and his department to civil lawsuits?

Has it been tried yet?

.

Off list guns aren't deemed unsafe, they're just not on the list is all. Listed guns are deemed "not unsafe" though. This doesn't necessarily mean that off list guns are specifically unsafe, in many or maybe even most cases it means that our handlers just haven't tested them out to make sure they're ok for us to have yet.

ke6guj
07-19-2012, 6:43 AM
Off list guns aren't deemed unsafe, they're just not on the list is all. Listed guns are deemed "not unsafe" though. This doesn't necessarily mean that off list guns are specifically unsafe, in many or maybe even most cases it means that our handlers just haven't tested them out to make sure they're ok for us to have yet.

untrue.

the law basically reads as all handguns are considered to be unsafe handguns unless they are listed on the roster.


31910. As used in this part, "unsafe handgun" means any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, for which any of the following is true:



Then, if they are listed on the roster, they are considered "not unsafe", not that they are safe.

Renaissance Redneck
07-19-2012, 6:55 AM
I won't buy any guns from shops that refuse to do SSEs . . . .

Sorry for the highjack, but what is SSE? I'm no gun noob, but I don't know what that abbreviation means. In my field of work, SSE stands for "soap suds enema", but I'm guessing that's not what is meant in the firearms shopping context! :D

Curley Red
07-19-2012, 7:00 AM
Sorry for the highjack, but what is SSE? I'm no gun noob, but I don't know what that abbreviation means. In my field of work, SSE stands for "soap suds enema", but I'm guessing that's not what is meant in the firearms shopping context! :D

Single shot exemption.

Connor P Price
07-19-2012, 7:01 AM
untrue.

the law basically reads as all handguns are considered to be unsafe handguns unless they are listed on the roster.


31910. As used in this part, "unsafe handgun" means any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, for which any of the following is true:



Then, if they are listed on the roster, they are considered "not unsafe", not that they are safe.

You're right, I guess its been a while since I've read that. I was thinking that they haven't necessarily been tested and failed thereby earning their "unsafe" title. Turns out "unsafe" is just a handguns natural state of being.

AK all day
07-19-2012, 7:08 AM
Threads like these always confuse me. Takes what I Thougt I knew, and makes me think I didn't really know it. I thought you could PPT off list pistols??

Renaissance Redneck
07-19-2012, 7:10 AM
Single shot exemption.

Gotcha! Thanks. I do know about the exemption, but was unaware of the abbreviation. Thanks again.

Connor P Price
07-19-2012, 7:44 AM
Threads like these always confuse me. Takes what I Thougt I knew, and makes me think I didn't really know it. I thought you could PPT off list pistols??

You can.

Bhobbs
07-19-2012, 8:04 AM
Threads like these always confuse me. Takes what I Thougt I knew, and makes me think I didn't really know it. I thought you could PPT off list pistols??

You can but the dealer owned that XDm, not a private person.

bigdawg86
07-19-2012, 8:11 AM
IMO Ammo Bro's is always psycho busy...so why waste time showing you and shooting the **** about a gun that you can't purchase? Maybe if you were the only person in the store and say wanted to see a off roster gun because you were considering a SSE...then they could show it, but otherwise it's not worth their time.

gunnerstuff
07-19-2012, 8:37 AM
California elitist bureaucrats have deemed you unworthy.

Legasat
07-19-2012, 10:49 AM
I fondled a gun not on the CA Roster not 2 weeks ago at a shop in San Diego. They were happy to show it to me.

Sounds like it just the policy of the shop.

JackRydden224
07-19-2012, 12:16 PM
I didn't ask. It was 5 minutes before closing. I also didn't think it mattered at the time because either way I was not going to push the employee to let me see it. Store policy or CA Law it was out of his hands.

I guess I'll have have to find another shop that will let me fondle a XDm.

PM720
07-19-2012, 3:04 PM
I had the same thing hapen at the Ontario store. I was looking at the LC9 and wanted to do a side by side comparison with the LCP and was told the same thing. No biggie to me as I already own an LCP. :D Like anyone these days I am sure they are just practicing CYA. Blame the government for that. They are always looking for the slightest reason to yank FFL's these days and I am sure a sucessful business like Ammo Bros does not want to take the risk, whatever that might be. They always treat me well there and I will continue to do business with them.

curtisfong
07-19-2012, 3:06 PM
Honestly, this doesn't bother me. Like others have said, they can't sell it to you anyway; why should they let you touch it if nothing they do is going to result in a sale?

Now, if said store offered turnkey SSE ... thats another thing.

Dreaded Claymore
07-19-2012, 3:39 PM
Now, if said store offered turnkey SSE ... thats another thing.

What's "turnkey" SSE? :confused:

duggan
07-19-2012, 3:46 PM
LEO's are civilians unless they also happen to be in the military.

Gunsmith Dan
07-19-2012, 6:28 PM
If you look at the law carefully they were legally correct in saying it would be illegal to even let you hold the firearm.

If you noticed the words "gives" and "lend" it should be quite obvious. The act of handing you the firearm to look at is the act of giving, then letting you hold it for a time period is the act of lending the firearm to you on a temp basis.

The guns are considered "unsafe" until they are tested. Currently I believe a manufacturer has to provide 10 working samples of each firearm model they want to sell, pay $5000 to the State approved Labs for EACH firearm they submit and do it all over every year.

Sounds crazy but that is how the law is .... crazy.

Ohh FYI unlike Hornswaggled don't go around naming shops that are friendly to or finding legal exemptions to the law. It is hard enough to run a business without getting extra surprise inspections interferring with legal business because of posts that get the gun grabbers in a frenzie. There is plenty of gun grabbers scanning sites like Calguns looking for info to make life hell for gun shops by calling and emailing CA DOJ.

Digital_Boy
07-19-2012, 6:35 PM
If you look at the law carefully they were legally correct in saying it would be illegal to even let you hold the firearm.

If you noticed the words "gives" and "lend" it should be quite obvious. The act of handing you the firearm to look at is the act of giving and letting you hold it for a time period is the act of lending the firearm to you on a temp basis.

Sounds crazy but that is how the law is .... crazy.

No, give/lend means that the firearm would leave the vicinity of the owner's immediate supervision. Just like someone can let you fire a gun at the range, but not take it home with you temporarily. Simply examining the gun at the counter does not meet the legal definition of loaning, as the owner is always in the immediate vicinity.

As has already been noted, it's more FUD/store policy to not let an ineligible buyer handle the guns to prevent them being dropped or scratched, thus negatively affecting their sale value to eligible buyers.

curtisfong
07-19-2012, 6:36 PM
If you look at the law carefully they were legally correct in saying it would be illegal to even let you hold the firearm.

If you noticed the words "gives" and "lend" it should be quite obvious. The act of handing you the firearm to look at is the act of giving and letting you hold it for a time period is the act of lending the firearm to you on a temp basis.

Sounds crazy but that is how the law is .... crazy.

IANAL but I believe "lend" is a bit more than just handing it over to somebody while you are there.

Otherwise, I couldn't let my buddy hold any of my off roster handguns at the range.

Digital_Boy
07-19-2012, 6:37 PM
What's "turnkey" SSE? :confused:

Turnkey = FFL does the legwork and procures SSE barrels and single shot magazines appropriate to the handgun in question and installs them before the gun ever goes on display, and has policies in place to buy back the barrel/sled from the buyer once they return the pistol to stock configuration.

Digital_Boy
07-19-2012, 6:40 PM
IANAL but I believe "lend" is a bit more than just handing it over to somebody while you are there.

Otherwise, I couldn't let my buddy hold any of my off roster handguns at the range.

I would believe that since you are perfectly fine selling a non-roster pistol to any non-prohibited person, you could also loan them temporarily, within the guidelines established in the CA PC just the same as any other handgun. The only gotcha is for licensed dealers selling non-roster guns to non-exempt persons.

Gunsmith Dan
07-19-2012, 6:49 PM
Whhile the "lend" portion of the law can be twisted a bit here and there the act of giving can not.

It does not matter if you are standing right next to the guy or even surgically attached to them. The act of allowing them to hold the firearm is "giving" it to them. I was also somewhat wondering about the law when I started my business and consulted a attorney who advised what I have told you guys. So as long as you allowed the person to hold the firearm you gave it to them, doesn't matter if it was in your hand or sitting on a coffee table on the otherside of the room. The only way you would not get hit would be if the person took it without permission.

Will you get caught .... most likely not ... but is it worth the risk??? For a business owner the answer would be in most cases no ... that is if they plan to stay in business for a long time.

Ron-Solo
07-19-2012, 9:23 PM
LEO's are civilians unless they also happen to be in the military.

Depends on what dictionary you refer to, so can we just leave these little snippets out of what is a reasonable discussion?

choprzrul
07-19-2012, 9:41 PM
Depends on what dictionary you refer to, so can we just leave these little snippets out of what is a reasonable discussion?

Dictionaries aside, there are civilians and there are non-civilians. If you are a non-civilian enforcing laws in this country, there may be a problem.

From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment

.

Ron-Solo
07-19-2012, 9:56 PM
Dictionaries aside, there are civilians and there are non-civilians. If you are a non-civilian enforcing laws in this country, there may be a problem.

Quote:
From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment



.

Bit of a stretch don't you think? Now, can we please get back on topic?


In my opinion, a salesperson handing someone a gun in a store is neither giving nor lending, but he might AR a problems with the offering an off roster handgun to an inelligible person, but that's a reach too.

Most likely, a store policy to prevent needless handling and keep merchandise in new condition.

taperxz
07-19-2012, 10:02 PM
Regardless of law interpretations. The firearm belongs to the FFL. If he doesn't want you to touch it, it's their prerogative.

JackRydden224
07-19-2012, 11:11 PM
I want to clarify that I was in no way criticizing Ammo Bros or a particular employee. I've done plenty of business with Ammo Bros and I think they are an outstanding business. I was trying to get a clear answer on the CA law. If it is the CA law, not the store policy, that prevents a shop from showing me a XDm then I would not ask any other shop to do it.

While I'm at it, this law would implicate private owner as well as it points to any person, not limited to business establishments. Therefore if an off roster gun is considered unsafe then anyone of us who shows another individual an off-list weapon would violate the law. At the end, just what is CA's definition of an unsafe handgun???


32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.



Regardless of law interpretations. The firearm belongs to the FFL. If he doesn't want you to touch it, it's their prerogative.

Ammo Bros or any other shop, gun related or not, has the right to deny service to anyone. I have no problem with the fact that I was not able to fondle the gun and but that's not what I'm trying to get at here. If I am really determined to see it then I can contact a fellow Calgunner for it or drive to Nevada.

ke6guj
07-19-2012, 11:44 PM
While I'm at it, this law would implicate private owner as well as it points to any person, not limited to business establishments. Therefore if an off roster gun is considered unsafe then anyone of us who shows another individual an off-list weapon would violate the law. At the end, just what is CA's definition of an unsafe handgun???


32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
.nope, there is an exemption for a private individual to sell an unsafe handgun without violating the law.


32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the
following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Chapter
5 (commencing with Section 28050) of Division 6 in order to comply
with Section 27545.

DannyInSoCal
07-19-2012, 11:55 PM
Really?

You're whining because someone wouldnt let you handle a sidearm you cant buy?

News flash - Crap happens...

mrdd
07-20-2012, 12:07 AM
The guns are considered "unsafe" until they are tested. Currently I believe a manufacturer has to provide 10 working samples of each firearm model they want to sell, pay $5000 to the State approved Labs for EACH firearm they submit and do it all over every year.

Just some corrections:

3 samples of each model required at initial application only

$200 Initial application and per year renewal per model

JackRydden224
07-20-2012, 12:17 AM
nope, there is an exemption for a private individual to sell an unsafe handgun without violating the law.


32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the
following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Chapter
5 (commencing with Section 28050) of Division 6 in order to comply
with Section 27545.

Thank you sir for clarifying my question. You've been very helpful unlike a certain someone....


Really?

You're whining because someone wouldnt let you handle a sidearm you cant buy?

News flash - Crap happens...

No, I'm not really whining.

News flash - Danny your reading comprehension sucks.

I made it clear that I was trying get an understanding of the law which many other members helped out. None of them thought I was whining. I wonder what made you think that I was whining :rolleyes:

mrdd
07-20-2012, 12:24 AM
32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.


that's the law regarding unsafe handguns. There is an exemption for LE sales. Does the act of pulling the handgun out of the case to let you fondle it violate 32000?

No, there is an exemption available:

PC 32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the
following:
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from
the provisions of Section 27545 pursuant to any applicable exemption
contained in Article 2 (commencing with Section 27600) or Article 6
(commencing with Section 27850) of Chapter 4 of Division 6, if the
sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that
applicable exemption to Section 27545.

This allows you to lend an "unsafe" handgun to another person personally known to you for 30 days (PC 27880), or to lend it to anyone for up to 3 days as long as you remain in their presence the entire time (PC 27885).

arsilva32
07-20-2012, 12:59 AM
if gun is unsafe what is a leo doing with it? just shows how asinine the entire roster law is. look at the Huntington beach cop that had a ND while cleaning his pistol this week.put another officer in the hospital with a bullet wound. now there more qualified than a civi to handle a so called unsafe handgun? its just completely absurd that a law like this could ever get passed. no one should handle a weapon deemed unsafe...... hmmm unless..... they want to make a ton of money from the manufactures, limit and make it a pain in the rear for a law abiding civi to obtain one. heck, he might just say forget it, its not worth the hassle. wow great law, win win for them.


um sorry about that........
rant over, back to the topic.

Oceanbob
07-20-2012, 6:06 AM
That would end my gun buying relationship with that shop. I won't buy any guns from shops that refuse to do SSEs while other gun shops are going the extra mile to get civilians the handguns they should be entitled to. Even if I want a rifle, I take my business to the DAS'es and Parallax Tacticals of the world. Shops that do SSEs get ALL my gun business.

IMO Ammo Bro's is always psycho busy...so why waste time showing you and shooting the **** about a gun that you can't purchase? Maybe if you were the only person in the store and say wanted to see a off roster gun because you were considering a SSE...then they could show it, but otherwise it's not worth their time.

I had the same thing hapen at the Ontario store. I was looking at the LC9 and wanted to do a side by side comparison with the LCP and was told the same thing. No biggie to me as I already own an LCP. :D Like anyone these days I am sure they are just practicing CYA. Blame the government for that. They are always looking for the slightest reason to yank FFL's these days and I am sure a sucessful business like Ammo Bros does not want to take the risk, whatever that might be. They always treat me well there and I will continue to do business with them.

Ammo Brothers has always been a fantastic gun store. Very professional and they do PPTs fast and no hassle. They also have a good selection of reloading supplies. Nice people as well.

mrdd
07-20-2012, 1:50 PM
Ammo Brothers has always been a fantastic gun store. Very professional and they do PPTs fast and no hassle. They also have a good selection of reloading supplies. Nice people as well.

The point is, there is no law against them showing the gun to non-LEO, they just did not want to do it since they could not sell it to him.

JackRydden224
07-20-2012, 1:52 PM
The point is, there is no law against them showing the gun to non-LEO, they just did not want to do it since they could not sell it to him.

Once again, that's exactly the clarity I was looking for. This means that I can go to another shop and I might have better luck.

I want to thank those of you who contributed to this thread. You guys are great.

enegue
07-20-2012, 11:50 PM
They wouldn't show you the gun? There is a shooting range that rents an XDm, among many other handguns to customers.

RJohnson
07-21-2012, 4:38 AM
Try ProForce : )

IEShooter
07-21-2012, 7:12 AM
The point is, there is no law against them showing the gun to non-LEO, they just did not want to do it since they could not sell it to him.

+1000

Ammo Brothers Ontario is one of my favorite gun stores and I'll continue to shop there.

They are well educated as to gun laws and know very well that it is perfectly legal to allow customers to handle whatever gun they want, off-list or not.

They simply see no reason to do so since non-LEO would never be able to buy that gun.

Given this, whey let you fondle it and perhaps damage it?

If it was my store, I'd have the same policy.