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View Full Version : That Florida shooting? The Colorado shooting? STOP it.


Librarian
07-18-2012, 9:18 PM
There's a thread in OT - go there.

It does NOT belong in the 2A forum.

This is a California forum to discuss gun rights.

A report of a shooting in Florida has no possibility at all of affecting the gun rights of Californians.

ccmc
07-19-2012, 6:01 AM
You wouldn't think so, but Maryland refers to the incident in their appeal of the Woollard decision.

ccmc
07-19-2012, 6:09 AM
Sorry, never mind - you're referring to the recent incident in Marion County, not the earlier more publicized one in Seminole County :o

QQQ
07-19-2012, 9:38 AM
I'm banned from Off Topic.

zhyla
07-20-2012, 8:16 AM
Would be nice if this applied to last night's Colorado shooting as well.

Librarian
07-20-2012, 12:25 PM
Would be nice if this applied to last night's Colorado shooting as well.

An out of state tragedy associated with guns does not affect the gun rights of Californians.

2A is NOT a 'current events' forum.

I've merged the threads and moved the merged one to OT.

IF this event leads to a Federal court case or a new Federal law, then the CASE and or the LAW belong here.

morfeeis
07-20-2012, 1:29 PM
I'd love to post in the OTL, but someone would have to take it as well as he dished it out......

Librarian
07-20-2012, 4:12 PM
BTT

NotEnufGarage
07-20-2012, 4:27 PM
I'm banned from Off Topic.

I guess you don't get to discuss it, then.

Librarian
07-20-2012, 7:07 PM
Some people are not getting the message:

Discussion of any aspect of the Colorado shooting goes to OT.

RJohnson
07-20-2012, 7:11 PM
I think that any of these shootings including the colorado shooting will inspire further legislation against a firearm ownership in california.

safewaysecurity
07-20-2012, 7:12 PM
I'm banned from Off Topic.

ditto

Librarian
07-20-2012, 8:16 PM
I think that any of these shootings including the colorado shooting will inspire further legislation against a firearm ownership in california.
Which gives me an opportunity to expand - thanks.

Horrible incidents by lone nut cases have historically been used as excuses for further laws.

We have, in California, Patrick Purdy in Stockton - who gave us the 'assault weapon' ban, and, serially, the Federal version of the same law.

We have Gian Luigi Ferri at 101 California - who motivated LCAV.

We have James Earl Ray and Sirhan Sirhan, who together pushed the Gun Control Act of 1968 over the top.

But the incidents themselves are not threats to our rights. Discussion of the incidents goes to OT.

The hysterical use of rare events to create bad public policy is not appropriate in this forum until laws are proposed or passed that actually have a chance to affect the rights of Californians.

When we get to Federal and California bills, laws and Federal court cases, those are proper subjects for 2A.

Further threads in 2A on the Colorado shooting will simply be deleted. And we don't really need more threads in OT - find one there and add to it.

Instapundit linked to a post - http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/07/20/politicizing-the-aurora-massacre-brian-ross/

We all know evil exists, that life is fragile, and that people die. But the suddenness and scale of an event like this, in a country like this, is what shocks our system. And for all the efforts by the greatest theological minds in history to explain theodicy, nothing I have ever read or heard addresses it in a satisfactory manner. The “problem of pain” is something that some people might be able to wrestle to the ground when the issue is abstract. But when pain pierces our lives in ways we could never imagine, the neat, tidy explanations – that tragedy is the consequence of the fall of man, that God allows human beings to choose evil, and all the rest – often wash away like sandcastles on the edge of the ocean.

It isn’t that these explanations are necessarily wrong. It’s that they offer very little comfort to those besieged by sorrow. Because what we learn in time is that (to paraphrase the writer Chad Walsh) grief is the price of knowledge – not the knowledge of the mind but of the heart. It is the knowledge of friendship, of affection, of love. Those who live in the shadow of people’s love eventually live in the shadow of grief. Understanding this basic fact of life doesn’t make it any easier to endure. Bereavement can fracture even the sturdiest foundations of our lives.
I get that people want to talk about it.

Just take it to OT.

Shotgun Man
07-21-2012, 1:43 AM
A report of a shooting in Florida has no possibility at all of affecting the gun rights of Californians.

[...]
But the incidents themselves are not threats to our rights. Discussion of the incidents goes to OT.

The hysterical use of rare events to create bad public policy is not appropriate in this forum until laws are proposed or passed that actually have a chance to affect the rights of Californians.


Believing that only CA events drive CA legislation is naive.

Insomuch as the discussion involves the potential effect of such current events on our 2A rights, it should be fair game here.

choprzrul
07-21-2012, 7:12 AM
.....

I get that people want to talk about it.

Just take it to OT.


This Article (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/21/us-usa-shooting-guns-campaign-idUSBRE86J18M20120721) gives a pretty good analysis of potential political fallout from the incident.

That's because gun control advocates have largely lost the argument against the much more powerful gun lobby, and politicians know the issue is toxic with voters.

Moreover, it often isn't immediately apparent what gun laws would have made a difference in specific cases.

Of particular note, even on Reuters, the comments section is about 80% against more gun control.

Now. Would an article like this that discusses 2A fallout issues from the Aurora incident be 2A forum appropriate? To me, shifting the discussion from the incident itself and towards 2A analysis, & the public's view of how the 2A relates, is indeed exactly what the 2A forum here is there for.

A fine line Librarian must walk. I do not envy his job. But, I must say, he does a dang fine job.

.

hiyabrad
07-21-2012, 9:54 AM
There's a thread in OT - go there.

It does NOT belong in the 2A forum.

This is a California forum to discuss gun rights.

A report of a shooting in Florida has no possibility at all of affecting the gun rights of Californians.

Spoken like a newbie. There will be a HUGE push for a Federal AW Ban and last time I checked that included CA. Not to mention probably outlawing civi drum mags. Don't underestimate the boiling point as I think we might just be there. Might want to watch speaking in absolutes as you can never say never. A mod should know that.

gatesbox
07-21-2012, 10:01 AM
Spoken like a newbie. There will be a HUGE push for a Federal AW Ban and last time I checked that included CA. Not to mention probably outlawing civi drum mags. Don't underestimate the boiling point as I think we might just be there. Might want to watch speaking in absolutes. You can never say never.

Did you for realz just call librarian a newbie??????????

Haaaahahahahahahahah

paul0660
07-21-2012, 10:02 AM
Spoken like a newbie.

Swing and a miss.

paul0660
07-21-2012, 10:03 AM
I guess you don't get to discuss it, then.

Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you.

hiyabrad
07-21-2012, 10:04 AM
Did you for realz just call librarian a newbie??????????

Haaaahahahahahahahah

I was making a point. I would not expect a mod to make a statement like that.

hiyabrad
07-21-2012, 10:05 AM
Swing and a miss.

Swing and grand slam.

Librarian
07-21-2012, 12:31 PM
Believing that only CA events drive CA legislation is naive.

Insomuch as the discussion involves the potential effect of such current events on our 2A rights, it should be fair game here.

I don't believe that.

I DO believe that the effect on California begins when a law is proposed or a court case reaches Federal level.

Incidents of violent crime, incidents of misconduct belong in OT.

Kappy
07-21-2012, 12:48 PM
A fine line Librarian must walk. I do not envy his job. But, I must say, he does a dang fine job.

Here Here

aileron
07-22-2012, 9:57 AM
Did you for realz just call librarian a newbie??????????

Haaaahahahahahahahah

Yet neither of them are. Not a very good way to have a discussion even though it is apparent he is upset...

Hank Stamper
07-22-2012, 12:58 PM
I'm banned from Off Topic.



Does one get banned wthout notice?
Is that why I have not been able to find the Off Topic threads since the night Ben Laden met his just reward? It would have been nice to have known what I had said. It might have been for questioning why some remarks were not being deleted when violating expected standards?

gunsandrockets
07-22-2012, 5:50 PM
There's a thread in OT - go there.

It does NOT belong in the 2A forum.

This is a California forum to discuss gun rights.

A report of a shooting in Florida has no possibility at all of affecting the gun rights of Californians.

1)Is this forum on "2nd Amend. Related Legal & Political Discussion" limited to topics which can only effect Californians?

If so, why not change the name of the forum and/or add another specific forum for broader 2nd Amendment political discussion? That is a better solution than moving 2nd Amendment political/legal discussion to the Off Topic forum. Why would a casual browser even think to look in the Off Topic forum for discussion of 2nd Amendment politics?

2)Even if this forum is limited to only California related legal/political/2nd Amend. discussion, what determines if a specific topic qualifies?

For example, I posted a topic related to story about infighting on the U.S. Supreme Court and it's potential ramifications for the pro-gun majority on the court. Since the primary means of fighting California anti-gun law is litigation in Federal Court, and resolution of the litigation is expected by all to only be resolved at the Supreme Court level, the news about the Supreme Court sure seemed California relevant to me. Yet this topic was moved off the forum.

xrMike
07-23-2012, 9:56 AM
Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you.

I thaught it told for thee?

drdarkness
07-28-2012, 2:44 PM
1)Is this forum on "2nd Amend. Related Legal & Political Discussion" limited to topics which can only effect Californians?

If so, why not change the name of the forum and/or add another specific forum for broader 2nd Amendment political discussion? That is a better solution than moving 2nd Amendment political/legal discussion to the Off Topic forum. Why would a casual browser even think to look in the Off Topic forum for discussion of 2nd Amendment politics?

2)Even if this forum is limited to only California related legal/political/2nd Amend. discussion, what determines if a specific topic qualifies?

For example, I posted a topic related to story about infighting on the U.S. Supreme Court and it's potential ramifications for the pro-gun majority on the court. Since the primary means of fighting California anti-gun law is litigation in Federal Court, and resolution of the litigation is expected by all to only be resolved at the Supreme Court level, the news about the Supreme Court sure seemed California relevant to me. Yet this topic was moved off the forum.


I agree, there is a thread about Maryland handgun laws and it's 15 pages long nothing to do with California but, it's here.

Librarian
07-28-2012, 3:09 PM
I agree, there is a thread about Maryland handgun laws and it's 15 pages long nothing to do with California but, it's here.

It's a Federal court case that can determine some important parts of gun rights - that affects California.

drdarkness
07-28-2012, 4:47 PM
so can mass shootings in other states,Gov. Brown is calling for new gun laws now in the wake of the Colorado shooting, I believe he's the governor of California so that affects us also.

Librarian
07-28-2012, 5:46 PM
so can mass shootings in other states,Gov. Brown is calling for new gun laws now in the wake of the Colorado shooting, I believe he's the governor of California so that affects us also.

No.

The shooting incidents cannot do that.

The hysterical reactions from the politicians can.

Major policy statements on gun law ('This is awful - we must have a new law that ...' kinds of statements) from the significant politicians - e.g. President, Attorney General, Governor of CA belong here.

Once an actual bill is proposed - for annoying examples, SB249, or the amendment submitted for S 3414 - the bill discussion belongs here.

gbp
07-28-2012, 8:35 PM
this is precisely why i think this thread (topic) should be renamed and include the words "Only California Related Items"

a case in point is the ongoing F&F thread
none of that has actually impacted California yet so why is it still here? if this is only about CA
"How can I reduce the amount of mail from the NRA"
"Maryland Handgun Registration......"
"How safe is My Home"
the list is endless

it's kind of like posting a notice for 'newbies' that they can not respond or make comments to a foresale item, but ignoring the people that come here everyday and just overlook the "Attention to New Members thread" and then calling them out on it when they say something like 'nice pistole' or 'nice rifle'
sort it out and tell everyone what the rules are via e-mail or mass PM

this, of corse is just my $0.02 worth
carry on and do what you wish

Librarian
07-28-2012, 9:52 PM
this is precisely why i think this thread (topic) should be renamed and include the words "Only California Related Items"

a case in point is the ongoing F&F thread
none of that has actually impacted California yet so why is it still here? if this is only about CA
"How can I reduce the amount of mail from the NRA"
"Maryland Handgun Registration......"
"How safe is My Home"
the list is endless



There is some reasonable likelihood - if the House actually does something rather than fiddle - that a sitting Attorney General and the President who appointed him might be involved in a scandal, which the scant evidence available suggests directly involves guns and may involve an attempt to implement more gun control, whose exposure should have negative consequences that affect the whole country - including California. Associated with F&F is the silly BATF order to report multiple sales of some guns in states bordering Mexico - including California.

I read the rest as saying 'you guys are not perfect', and no, I'm not. I'm also not on the forums 24/7, and like all humans I'm fallible (despite the robot jokes :)).

Let me go back to shooting incidents.

We - you, me, the media, the politicians - ought to be treating them the way traffic accidents are treated. Those involve injuries or death; those consequences involve families and friends, and are associated with great emotional pain; those incidents prompt investigation by police and government safety experts. The events often tie up traffic, and thousands of motorists drive by the scene.

There is ample, even excessive coverage of details of crimes and accidents involving firearms in the papers, on television, on the web.

The Calguns forum "2nd Amend. Related Legal & Political Discussion" is not the place to duplicate that coverage. It isn't necessary. We don't have the ability to comfort the injured or the affected friends and families, we cannot assist in the apprehension of criminals or in the investigation of the event, and we can't keep the anti-gun media from publishing its repetitive errors.

It's useful to know about the incidents, of course. It's handy to know that passage of our 'assault weapon' law may be attributed to Patrick Purdy in Stockton in January of 1989. But the sad toll of five murdered and 29 wounded is not the issue, outside of those who knew the victims. We already know that politicians and others want to shape public policy based on rare events - talking about the events themselves does not give us any leverage to change that behavior.

gbp
07-29-2012, 6:09 AM
I read the read as saying 'you guys are not perfect', and no, I'm not. I'm also not on the forums 24/7, and like all humans I'm fallible (despite the robot jokes ).

please, do not take my statement personally, i was only pointing out the confusion that occurs on this and also many other forums.

Librarian
07-29-2012, 11:50 AM
please, do not take my statement personally, i was only pointing out the confusion that occurs on this and also many other forums.

Thanks - didn't take it personally, and I apologize if that bit seemed too grumpy.

hiyabrad
07-30-2012, 11:29 AM
No.

The shooting incidents cannot do that.

The hysterical reactions from the politicians can.

Major policy statements on gun law ('This is awful - we must have a new law that ...' kinds of statements) from the significant politicians - e.g. President, Attorney General, Governor of CA belong here.

Once an actual bill is proposed - for annoying examples, SB249, or the amendment submitted for S 3414 - the bill discussion belongs here.

Rename the fourm for California only or let us discuss 2A related issues. 2A is not confined to only CA and it's all relavant and good discussion material.

I guess the Firearm's discussion threads and the Marketplace threads are only for CA too?

killshot44
08-15-2012, 9:01 PM
What don't you get about the CAL in Calguns?
Yeah, we're California focused here....it should not be a surprise. Don't like it? The Web is a big place, find one you do.

Bobby Hated
08-16-2012, 7:53 AM
i find the unilateral censorship and control exerted by calguns moderators to be wholly intimidating.

i wish we could vote on who has moderator status.

Turbinator
08-16-2012, 11:20 AM
i find the unilateral censorship and control exerted by calguns moderators to be wholly intimidating.

i wish we could vote on who has moderator status.

So, what did we do to anger you?

Turby

ccmc
08-17-2012, 6:20 AM
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120816/DA0MNMUO0.html

Librarian
08-17-2012, 11:55 AM
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120816/DA0MNMUO0.html

Yes, the article appears to be true in at least its headline.

Your point?

Mine is that the results reported are the issues that belong here - not the bloody details of casualties and weapons used.