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View Full Version : True Featureless any less defendable than a bb olll


cowboyup
07-16-2012, 10:41 PM
Checking back in. I reread the flow chart and still wanted to
Ask if a featureless, solar tactical, no evil
Features, etc build is any less
Legal or more likely to encounter problems with than a bb equipped rifle for shooting, hunting, sport? Calguns foundation have an opinion on featureless being more or less defendable for any reason? Thanks.

repubconserv
07-16-2012, 10:48 PM
They are both legal, therefore defendable.

If you are talking about defendable to the average Cop... I would say your chances are better with a BB, just because featureless is still relatively unknown.

Defendable in court though? the grip wraps/Pg alternatives are ( for the most part) DOJ approved as non-conspicuous, and those are the most "iffy" things when it comes to featureless (ARs, AKs, Etc). Any other aspect of featureless is pretty simple, if it does not have it, it does not have it. So again, BB I would think is just as defendable as featureless

GNE
07-16-2012, 10:56 PM
Only other "major" issue is make sure you don't have a compensator/muzzle break that is advertised as doing anything other than working as a compensator/muzzle break (specifically, having flash hiding properties).

littlejake
07-16-2012, 10:58 PM
Just opinion, I would think featureless is more easily defended. I say that under the theory of, "if it does not have it, it does not have it."

If a LEO insists on checking a BB rifle to see if he can remove the mag w/o a tool; and he forces it out; or claims a bullet isn't a tool, then it's trouble. No "evil" features, he's less likely to even look at you twice.

As of this point in time, both are legal -- featureless, and BB OLL with features.

stix213
07-17-2012, 12:14 AM
As already stated, featureless are less common so you may encounter more officers who don't know what to make of them. If you're talking about in court, they should be pretty equal, but have any featureless AR's ever gone to court?

bwiese
07-17-2012, 12:23 AM
As already stated, featureless are less common so you may encounter more officers who don't know what to make of them. If you're talking about in court, they should be pretty equal, but have any featureless AR's ever gone to court?


Since all parts of the law are equal strength (i.e, featureless has no more or less "prioirty" than any configuration with a nondetachable magazine) there should be zero concern about "which is more legal" since such a situation simply doesn't exist...

But the answer is indeed 'Yes' : both MonsterMan-grip equipped and U15 non-thumbhole stock equipped guns were involved.

This was part of the CGF-defended Contos case (Sonoma Firearms FFL under DOJ attack thru local DA). The general tenor
of that case was, in many ways, "you're almost selling AWs so therefore you must be selling AWs".

In case there was to be further drama over the U15 stock I was prepared to round up topologists (branch of math/geometry) to discuss meanings of "holes" vs contours/surfaces, but the case 'went away' before that - with an FFI (Factual Finding of Innocence) eventually issued.

The local Norcal DA in that case was led on & left to hang by DOJ BoF attorney. That case was also notable in that she could not bring the case directly as an "AG case" given management supervision from above, and she had to work in a 'sideways' fashion to try to accomplish her goals.

Even funnier is that Mr. Contos' past work included a long history of ultra, ultra high security clearances - ones that most DOJ BoF staff may well not be qualified for...

littlejake
07-17-2012, 12:29 AM
Yeah for CGF!

Thanks for the post Bill. Keep up the good work.

Which reminds me -- about time I send some more money to CGF!

NorCalDustin
07-17-2012, 1:09 AM
Since all parts of the law are equal strength (i.e, featureless has no more or less "prioirty" than any configuration with a nondetachable magazine) there should be zero concern about "which is more legal" since such a situation simply doesn't exist...

But the answer is indeed 'Yes' : both MonsterMan-grip equipped and U15 non-thumbhole stock equipped guns were involved.

This was part of the CGF-defended Contos case (Sonoma Firearms FFL under DOJ attack thru local DA). The general tenor
of that case was, in many ways, "you're almost selling AWs so therefore you must be selling AWs".

In case there was to be further drama over the U15 stock I was prepared to round up topologists (branch of math/geometry) to discuss meanings of "holes" vs contours/surfaces, but the case 'went away' before that - with an FFI (Factual Finding of Innocence) eventually issued.

The local Norcal DA in that case was led on & left to hang by DOJ BoF attorney. That case was also notable in that she could not bring the case directly as an "AG case" given management supervision from above, and she had to work in a 'sideways' fashion to try to accomplish her goals.

Even funnier is that Mr. Contos' past work included a long history of ultra, ultra high security clearances - ones that most DOJ BoF staff may well not be qualified for...
lol.... Good times.

cowboyup
07-22-2012, 3:30 PM
Fixed stock, mstn qc (aka PRI) brake. Solar tatical...is the config, no forward grip etc.

nicki
07-22-2012, 5:21 PM
So, if I have to make my guns featureless, could I sue under the ADA that I can't have a gun more ergonomically suited for self defense?

Nicki

CSACANNONEER
07-22-2012, 5:27 PM
Please, DO NOT put a magazine lock on a featureless gun. It defeats the whole purpose of going featureless and limits you to ten round or less mags too.

kel-tec-innovations
07-22-2012, 6:20 PM
From my experience with LEO encounter, a featureless AK is an assault weapon. They only knew what a BB was but not featureless. took over an hour to explain the whole damn law to them. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=523910

CSACANNONEER
07-23-2012, 5:23 PM
Many of the first OLLs were built featureless. Comercial mag locks didn't come out for a year or two. It took another year or so for Prince to develop the BB, Rad to design the Radlock, Jumbopanda to design his AK mag lock, etc.

cowboyup
09-23-2012, 10:30 PM
From my experience with LEO encounter, a featureless AK is an assault weapon. They only knew what a BB was but not featureless. took over an hour to explain the whole damn law to them. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=523910

Interesting story and outcome....thanks

Moonshine
09-24-2012, 11:32 AM
I'm gonna have to say +1 on the comment about BBs being more recognized by the average LEO which is probably why most stores sell them in BB configuration. At least in Sacramento County I've only seen a PPT with featureless leading me to believe the store does acknowledge its legal but will not stock it.

Jason_2111
09-24-2012, 12:01 PM
A little bit of a tangent, but in whichever case as an AR owner, there's some documents that are always handy to have on hand in your range bag:

1. The calguns flowchart ( http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf )
2. The Sacramento PD OLL Memo ( http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf )
3. The CGF Hotline Number ( http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/resources/cgf-hotline.html )
4. Jason Davis's contact info ( http://www.calgunlawyers.com/ )

bwiese
09-24-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm gonna have to say +1 on the comment about BBs being more recognized by the average LEO which is probably why most stores sell them in BB configuration. At least in Sacramento County I've only seen a PPT with featureless leading me to believe the store does acknowledge its legal but will not stock it.


Moonshine,

Your comments are irrelevant to the thread subject of defendability.

Cops and gun shops are famous founts of incorrect info.

Now, I do think BBs are more popular with the younger 'cool toyz' set than real shooters - who see the advantage of featureless being used with legally detachable magazines, which can also be hicaps [if mags legally possessed in CA before 2000]

Wiz-of-Awd
09-24-2012, 1:47 PM
Now, I do think BBs are more popular with the younger 'cool toyz' set than real shooters - who see the advantage of featureless being used with legally detachable magazines, which can also be hicaps [if mags legally possessed in CA before 2000]

I find this to be an interesting comment.

As BB guns (I think) are closer to the "real" design of a given AR style rifle, how does "featureless being used with legally detachable magazines" appeal to "real" shooters?

I would think that "real" shooters may want more of a choice than featureless seems (to me) to allow.

A.W.D.

Moonshine
09-24-2012, 1:57 PM
The reason I have BB on mine is my proximity to the state line. If I lived further from the line and spent most of my time shooting rifles in California, I would definitely go featureless and am actually in the process of building up a featureless AR so I have both. I agree that it's a trade off. Both are equally as legal, BB is just more popular for whatever reason (I was citing cops/stores as an example of some reasons).

soopafly
09-24-2012, 1:59 PM
As BB guns (I think) are closer to the "real" design of a given AR style rifle, how does "featureless being used with legally detachable magazines" appeal to "real" shooters?

I would think that "real" shooters may want more of a choice than featureless seems (to me) to allow.

To me, a detachable magazine has far more utility than any folding or telescoping stock, flash hider or grenade launcher, vertical front grip or pistol grip. I have both a featureless, detachable mag AR, and a BB'd AR with 'evil features'...I have to say that a functioning detachable magazine trumps any 'evil features' as far as the rifle's functionality goes.

bwiese
09-24-2012, 2:40 PM
To me, a detachable magazine has far more utility than any folding or telescoping stock, flash hider or grenade launcher, vertical front grip or pistol grip. I have both a featureless, detachable mag AR, and a BB'd AR with 'evil features'...I have to say that a functioning detachable magazine trumps any 'evil features' as far as the rifle's functionality goes.

BINGO!

And there are lotsa shooters runnin' & gunnin' - and winning! - in CA 3-gun matches using featureless profiles with MonsterMan grips or SolarTactical gripwraps.

cowboyup
09-24-2012, 10:54 PM
BINGO!

And there are lotsa shooters runnin' & gunnin' - and winning! - in CA 3-gun matches using featureless profiles with MonsterMan grips or SolarTactical gripwraps.

This +1

hoffmang
09-25-2012, 7:35 PM
It is a change to have BB guns to be potentially more recognized than featureless. In the past featureless were so "unique" that they caused officers to pause and realize that they probably were not prohibited.

The political fray has helped to communicate that it's probably a bad idea to arrest with a bullet button - but YMMV as plenty of cops still don't get it. That's probably because CA DOJ doesn't make it very clear...

-Gene