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View Full Version : Musings about rebuild kits for different AR configurations...


FXR
07-15-2012, 7:22 PM
I just had a few theoreticals I wanted to explore here. Let's say Joe Calgunner has a featureless AR in 5.56 and 10 30 round mags. Are any of the following a problem?

Situation 1:
Joe buys a 6.8 upper and replaces the followers in his mags with 6.8 followers. (I'm not positive this works, but assume it does.) He saves the old followers in case he wants to use the 5.56 upper in the future. At no point does he have more than 10 full size mags.

Situation 2:
Joe buys an AR Five-Seven upper and 10 full size 5.7 rebuild kits. He breaks down his 30 round mags into parts kits, stores them, and assembles the 5.7 kits into magazines. At no point does he have more than 10 full size mags.

From the Wiki:
The general rules regarding magazine repair appear to be that as long as one ends up with the same number of legally possessed large-capacity magazines, has a plausible path of replacement parts from the original possessed large-capacity magazine to the repaired magazine, and the magazine continues to work in the firearm it was originally designed to operate in, one would not be violating the law.
There are no restrictions on modifying a legally possessed large-capacity magazine to work in another firearm as long as the magazine continues to operate in the firearm it was originally designed for. This concept, however, has not been tested - 'appear to be' is all we have. [Emphasis added]

Since the "firearm" remains the AR lower (marked multi cal, why not) and the magazines continue to operate in the firearm they were designed to operate in (an AR with a 5.7 upper attached) it seems that that there's no problem here. However, the magazines share no parts (or even conceptual similarities) and only function in a different configuration of the same firearm.

Thoughts?

NiteQwill
07-15-2012, 7:26 PM
Won't work (legally). AFAIK, the magazines must be of the same caliber. You can't rebuild a magazine from one caliber to another. The keyword is plausible. (Anyone correct me)

Your same example can be shared among .22LR uppers which accept Black Dog magazines. Or the use of beowolf magazines in a standard .223/5.56 upper.

CSACANNONEER
07-15-2012, 7:29 PM
Would that mean I could rebuild a 30 round 5.56 AR mag into a 32 round 9mm Sten mag? Some AR uppers use 9mm Sten mags.

FXR
07-15-2012, 7:42 PM
Won't work (legally). AFAIK, the magazines must be of the same caliber. You can't rebuild a magazine from one caliber to another. The keyword is plausible. (Anyone correct me)

Your same example can be shared among .22LR uppers which accept Black Dog magazines. Or the use of beowolf magazines in a standard .223/5.56 upper.

I've never seen anything indicating this; in fact I've heard that 30 rounds of 5.56 in a 10 round 458 SOCOM mag is a legal configuration, although the follower may not feed the last round perfectly. If it is in fact illegal to change calibers (which I don't think it is) then that's the end of this musing. I'd like to see a citation though.

Would that mean I could rebuild a 30 round 5.56 AR mag into a 32 round 9mm Sten mag? Some AR uppers use 9mm Sten mags.

I thought about using this example, but didn't because Sten mags are clearly designed to operate in Stens, not ARs. It's a useful follow up question, but I didn't want to leave the initial question open to this weakness.

ETA: my understanding is that most AR-Sten mags are modified in some way to work with the AR mag well sleeve, and I assume this makes them no longer usable in an actual Sten? If they are able to be used in both platforms then I withdraw my criticism, and this should be perfectly equivalent to the 5.7 upper.

CSACANNONEER
07-15-2012, 8:00 PM
Yes, they can use the same unmodified Sten mags that many MAC clones can.

Librarian
07-15-2012, 8:07 PM
In my opinion, neither situation 1 nor situation 2 will 'fly'.

There's a difference between 'this works without modification' and 'I had to change things to make it work'.

Situation 1: Our current theory is that if a magazine works in gun-type X, it must still work (as well as it always did) if you modify it so it also works in gun-type Y. To do otherwise strongly suggests manufacturing.

Situation 2: this just looks like manufacturing 5.7 mags. You don't still have whatever number of mags that the 30-rounders were.

wash
07-15-2012, 9:02 PM
In my opinion, a pre-ban large capacity magazine can be rebuilt in to another magazine if at least one part is compatible from the before configuration to the after configuration.

For example, a USGI 20 round M16 magazine could be rebuilt in to a 30 round Magpul Pmag because the USGI spring will fit in the Pmag, then you could swap the old USGI spring with the new Magpul and be 100% legit.

If there are no parts compatible, like a USGI M16 mag and a 5.7*28 FN P90 magazine, you can't do it.

So case 1 is legit because at the very least, the floor plate and magazine spring are common.

If not, I'm guilty of putting new Magpul followers in USGI magazines. While they didn't change the caliber of the mag, I don't see why that matters.

phrogg111
07-15-2012, 9:21 PM
For Situation 1:

I thought that 5.56 followers worked with 6.8 rounds anyway? If not, and if 5.56 works fine with the 6.8 followers, then it's fine.

For situation 2:

Would disassembling some 5.56 mags and assembling some 5.7 mags be the same as remanufacturing 5.56 mags to work with 5.7x28? Nope. This is illegal. You just disassembled some legal 30-rd magazines to illegally manufacture some 5.7 magazines.

The AR 5.7 upper has a detachable magazine. Unless you're running it on a featureless rifle, or you're using 10 round magazines or less in the rifle with a FIXED magazine, then it's illegal regardless.

dantodd
07-16-2012, 6:30 AM
The AR 5.7 upper has a detachable magazine. Unless you're running it on a featureless rifle, or you're using 10 round magazines or less in the rifle with a FIXED magazine, then it's illegal regardless.

Or attaching it to a registered lower.

Quiet
07-16-2012, 8:25 AM
If you modify an existing large capacity magazine to work in another firearm, it still needs to be able to work in the original firearm. Otherwise, it would be manufacturing a large capacity magazine (new mag for the other firearm).

Sniper3142
07-16-2012, 9:34 AM
In my opinion, a pre-ban large capacity magazine can be rebuilt in to another magazine if at least one part is compatible from the before configuration to the after configuration.

For example, a USGI 20 round M16 magazine could be rebuilt in to a 30 round Magpul Pmag because the USGI spring will fit in the Pmag, then you could swap the old USGI spring with the new Magpul and be 100% legit.

If there are no parts compatible, like a USGI M16 mag and a 5.7*28 FN P90 magazine, you can't do it.

So case 1 is legit because at the very least, the floor plate and magazine spring are common.

If not, I'm guilty of putting new Magpul followers in USGI magazines. While they didn't change the caliber of the mag, I don't see why that matters.


I agree.

And since on an AR15, the LOWER is the actual serialized firearm part, then any magazine that still works in the lower should be fine.

Flopper
07-16-2012, 2:23 PM
Unless they're doing this differently now, this really is a "neither here nor there" question, since an AR57 magazine is really a PS90 magazine and feeds directly into the upper and has nothing to do with the lower until ejected.

dantodd
07-16-2012, 2:48 PM
I agree.

And since on an AR15, the LOWER is the actual serialized firearm part, then any magazine that still works in the lower should be fine.

Yeah. That is unlikely to work in CA. There is no statute that says this, it is taken from various letters and opinions from the AG. The idea that a .223 magazine can be "rebuilt" into a .22 magazine without "manufacturing" a new large capacity strains credulity and will likely not pass the smell test of a jury.

duggan
07-16-2012, 3:27 PM
6.8 rounds get a little wonky on 5.56 followers, the mag bodies tend to bow out (6.8 mags have a different ribbing) so while you may be able to put 6.8 rounds into a 5.56 mag IME it doesn't work out too well.

WootSauce
07-16-2012, 6:52 PM
Ok I wont touch Situation 1, but I'll take a whack at 2...

Situation 2:
Joe buys an AR Five-Seven upper and 10 full size 5.7 rebuild kits. He breaks down his 30 round mags into parts kits, stores them, and assembles the 5.7 kits into magazines. At no point does he have more than 10 full size mags.


I think that answers it right there
assembly = manufacturing