PDA

View Full Version : Turners is breaking the gun-lock law!


Chiuchimu
07-12-2012, 7:14 PM
I Emailed robz@turners.com the customer service Email twice and still haven't got a response.

I recently sold my sig 2022 thru PPT at Turners Reseda. The gun has accompanied with case and original gun-lock. The manager of Turners force the purchase of a gun-lock because I the seller did not have a 30 day reciept for the gun-lock.

Please read below, Code 12088.1.1. The green section clearly says all firearm sales must be accompanied with a gun-lock. This is a requirement to purchase a firearm. The part in red says, if the gun did not come with gun-lock, you can be exempt from 12088.1.(a) meaning you can still buy the gun if you the buyer provide a gun-lock with a 30 day receipt.

The law says nothing about the seller being required to provide a receipt for the gun-lock. The red part covers the case when a gun doesn't come with a lock.

Please contact me thru PM or on this post and tell me Turners stance on this law. It is written in plain English, I don't understand why your key personal doesn't understand it. I want a written statement from someone of authority in turners recognizing how this law works. I will take this paper to turners Reseda so they get it once and for all!

12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device. (b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3. (c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:

"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."
(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe. (3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto. (d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply: (1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster. (2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms. (e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply: (1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm. (2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm. (3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device. (4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied. (5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

Hakoomay
07-12-2012, 7:19 PM
its a business what can ya say... besides maybe it was a guy who doesnt sit there and read PRK's PC and just does what he is told by more "experienced" workers there...

glock21fan
07-12-2012, 7:29 PM
I don't see how they are breaking any law if its a store policy. I've always been required t furnish a receipt at any shop. Unless it was a factory lock.

Ed_Hazard
07-12-2012, 7:29 PM
So you as the seller had to buy a new lock?, or did your purchaser have to buy a new lock because you did not have a 30 day receipt for the lock included? Please explain.

Dr Rockso
07-12-2012, 7:32 PM
I don't see the 2022 on the list, in my experience if that particular make/model is not listed all FFLs will require a newly purchased lock.

http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/fsearch.asp

readysetgo
07-12-2012, 7:37 PM
Pretty standard with ppt, from my experiences (the part about needing to have a new lock).

What's your real complaint?
1. You're mad because this transaction required a lock at all, or...
2. You're mad because they asked you, the seller, to purchase the lock.

Answer:
1. Most ppt's I've seen have required a "new" safety device, meaning they don't usually except the lock provided by the seller, unless dated receipt etc etc. With pistols you can't "opt out" with an approved safe/container either so that's a no go route.

2. As others mentioned already, you as the seller are not really required to buy the lock, custom usually dictates the buyer would purchase their own lock.

You're being dramatic... they're not "breaking" any law!
The "law" here is clearly regulatory for "the kids" and safety. Going above and beyond a particular set of "safety" regulations is in no way shape or form "breaking the law". If you work on a tall ladder and are required to use a 3/8" diameter safety rope to help in a fall, is it then a felony for your supervisor to give you a 1/2" safety rope for that purpose? :confused:

Finally, change your thread title and take a deep breath! Nobody kicked your dog or robbed you for thousands of dollars.

Honey or vinegar... your move.

TheHammerOfTruth
07-12-2012, 11:29 PM
Are you really thinking that a company that large is staying in business by selling locks? Im sure if you talked to them they will give you your money back.

hermosabeach
07-13-2012, 12:16 AM
It is the small stuff that sinks a lot of FFL dealers

I can see why they have the policy that requires a gun
Lock purchase

When you deal in volume, stong procedures help to keep you in good shape

As the customer you can decide where you do business....

Steve_In_29
07-13-2012, 6:03 AM
It is my understanding that the only lock a dealer will accept from the seller on a PPT is the actual factory supplied OEM lock that came with the gun when it was originally sold new and that any aftermarket lock (even if on the DOJ list) wouldn't count without a 30day receipt. Even a DOJ lock that was bought to satisfy the original purchase requirements.

SemperFlexibus
07-13-2012, 7:01 AM
This is another example of Turner's employees doing extreme interpretation of gun laws, especially Reseda store, where you can get different answers from different employees at times.

Avoid Reseda whenever possible...

CSACANNONEER
07-13-2012, 7:02 AM
Failed title.

Turner's is sure not breaking any laws here. Their store policy may be more stringent but, it sure isn't breaking any laws!

A-J
07-13-2012, 8:11 AM
I understand you're pissed off, but take a few deep breaths and re-read the red text. Nowhere in there does it say that an exception is allowed for an OEM lock that came with the gun originally during a PPT transfer. So it could be argued that they were compyling with the letter of the law by making you or the other party buy one. Now, on a NEW gun, you do not need to buy the lock if it comes with one.

longv
07-13-2012, 9:16 AM
Part A of 12088.1. states that a lock has to be included with a transfer or sale of a firearm. Doesn't say it must be new, just an approved lock, could be an oem lock or a lock that the seller threw in with the transfer. Now part E states "the sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply..." buying a new lock, dated receipt etc..

So if a lock is included in the sale or transfer there should be no reason to buy a new lock from the ffl doing the transfer, no requirements for a receipt dated within 30 days because you're complying with part A correct?

IdahoF350
07-13-2012, 10:00 AM
So the dealer is covering their rear by enforcing the part in red because it is clear and the part in green is ambiguous. You still have to prove the lock you included met the DOJ criteria to the letter. Then it's the dealer's discretion.

Now, if you want to, you can interpret the part in red with a hint of ambiguity as well. The buyer must purchase the lock prior to the sale, but not more than 30 days prior. The buyer must provide 'his/her' original receipt for the lock that clearly includes its manufacturer and the make and model of the firearm(s) it is designed for. The buyer must present the lock at the time of purchase to the dealer.

NOWHERE does it say that the lock must be bought from a firearms dealer. eBay anyone?
NOWHERE does it exclude you from purchasing a 'used' lock.

So type up a receipt to the person you're selling the gun, listing you as the seller and sold to the buyer, list the make and model of the lock. List the application the lock fits. When you meet the buyer, give them the receipt and the lock. Problem solved.

paul0660
07-13-2012, 10:09 AM
shall include or be accompanied by

That is the law. You can bring one, have one thrown across the room to you, find one in the parking lot, or squirt one out of your nether regions. Then you are good to go.

killathrilla
07-13-2012, 10:15 AM
...

GMG
07-13-2012, 12:35 PM
Say your doing a PPT of a pistol that has an internal lock (Bersa Thunder) and it also came with the OEM trigger lock.

Would buying another lock still apply?

Ed_Hazard
07-13-2012, 8:13 PM
Say your doing a PPT of a pistol that has an internal lock (Bersa Thunder) and it also came with the OEM trigger lock.

Would buying another lock still apply?

Yes, the key point being that the lock must be Ca. approved. At this time the only internal locking system on the approved list is the Springfield Armory ILS System.

srvgtrfan
07-13-2012, 10:03 PM
Not to add fuel, but I am curious, when I purchase a new gun, I believe it comes with the factory lock, which is included as part of the accessories, like an extra mag or whatever right? If that is the case then how can I also be charged an additional $5 or $6, or whatever for a lock, when one is included in the gun case. I'm not getting an additional lock., I am getting the lock that comes with the gun. Right? Or am I missing something? Just curious. :o

Please excuse my ignorance. I may be completely wrong in thinking that a factory lock is provided with all guns that are sold new. I looked at the Ruger website and checked out a couple pistols that state under "features" what comes with it, and I did not see a lock. I may have just answered my own questions. Carry on!

Iowegian
07-13-2012, 10:56 PM
Take the weapon to your vehicle. Store it properly and return the lock for a refund.

ke6guj
07-14-2012, 9:58 AM
Yes, the key point being that the lock must be Ca. approved. At this time the only internal locking system on the approved list is the Springfield Armory ILS System.

although the Bersa's internal lock isnt' on the roster and wouldnt' satisfy CA's lock requirement, it should meet the federal lock requirement. As such, you'd be able to satisfy CA law with a Safe Affidavit, provided the dealer was willing to accept it.

Boris
07-14-2012, 11:44 AM
although the Bersa's internal lock isnt' on the roster and wouldnt' satisfy CA's lock requirement, it should meet the federal lock requirement. As such, you'd be able to satisfy CA law with a Safe Affidavit, provided the dealer was willing to accept it.

The feds don't recognize the CA safe affidavit and the Bersa integral lock isn't on the CA roster so it appears that purchase of a new lock is the solution. Then return it and get back to life online.

Scratch705
07-14-2012, 11:56 AM
just buy a lock at wal-mart/big5 on day of pickup, then return it after pickup. not that hard and totally legal as the law never said you had to keep the lock with the gun only that you need to have one for pickup.

Bikertrash
07-14-2012, 12:50 PM
Really?? Are you just looking for something to b***h about? I don't blame robz for not answering you. I wouldn't either. People that make big things over petty circumstances generally won't be happy with ANY answer anyway.

The 4 people you never want to p*ss off are your doctor, mechanic, waitress and gun store. It'll never go in your favor.

ke6guj
07-14-2012, 1:10 PM
The feds don't recognize the CA safe affidavit and the Bersa integral lock isn't on the CA roster so it appears that purchase of a new lock is the solution. Then return it and get back to life online.right, the feds don't recognize the CA safe affifdavit, but the presence of the internal lock satisfies federal law.

With federal law out of the way, you can satisfy CA law with just the Safe Affidavit.

RileyBean
07-14-2012, 1:14 PM
Really?? Are you just looking for something to b***h about? I don't blame robz for not answering you. I wouldn't either. People that make big things over petty circumstances generally won't be happy with ANY answer anyway.

The 4 people you never want to p*ss off are your doctor, mechanic, waitress and gun store. It'll never go in your favor.

+1 AND Turner's does a lot to help us continue enjoying being able to purchase AR's and similar systems that other places are too afraid to carry. So, I would just go with flow and quit crying about a $2 lock. Besides, if I were them I'd quit doing PPTs just because of BS like this......

dctex99
07-14-2012, 1:35 PM
+1 AND Turner's does a lot to help us continue enjoying being able to purchase AR's and similar systems that other places are too afraid to carry. So, I would just go with flow and quit crying about a $2 lock. Besides, if I were them I'd quit doing PPTs just because of BS like this......

That would NOT be a $2 lock to the gun buyer tho, rather a $10 lock!! Do what I do; buy near Xmas and they "forgot" what the law is (and their store policy) and didn't make me buy one..( and NO, it did not have an internal lock and I did not bring two armed guards with me)..Hey; its Turners..

CSACANNONEER
07-14-2012, 1:43 PM
right, the feds don't recognize the CA safe affifdavit, but the presence of the internal lock satisfies federal law.

With federal law out of the way, you can satisfy CA law with just the Safe Affidavit.

This is the problem. Most FFLs can't understand that two different laws can be satified by two different requirements. Most FFLs seem to only accept a single solution that satisfies both laws.

Rhythm of Life
07-14-2012, 2:06 PM
For a consignment gun I bought:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2afek4p.png

They were OK with the Receipt for me.... they even wrote it on the paperwork for me.

Boris
07-14-2012, 2:08 PM
right, the feds don't recognize the CA safe affifdavit, but the presence of the internal lock satisfies federal law.

With federal law out of the way, you can satisfy CA law with just the Safe Affidavit.

I'm sorry, I must be reading this wrong. I thought the transaction was taking place in California.

Josh3239
07-14-2012, 2:14 PM
Keep in mind Reseda is actually the city of LA. The city of LA has its own crazy draconian laws. That said, yes in certain circumstances it makes sense for them to err on the side of caution, especially when the LAPD Gun Unit likes to come by.

This is another example of Turner's employees doing extreme interpretation of gun laws, especially Reseda store, where you can get different answers from different employees at times.

Avoid Reseda whenever possible...

ke6guj
07-14-2012, 2:36 PM
I'm sorry, I must be reading this wrong. I thought the transaction was taking place in California.it is.

you do know that CA has had a firearrms lock law for many years, but that one of the ways to satisfy the law was to fill out the Safe Affidavit form? This applied to long guns and handguns. Then, more recently, the feds passed their own handgun lock law. At that point, long gun rules did not change, but for handguns, you now had to comply with both the CA law and the federal law. CA law still allows for you to use the Safe Affidavit to comply with the CA gunlock laws, but the feds say that the Affidavit won't work to satisfy federal law. And since hte Affidavit by itself won't satisfy both CA and federal law, most people just say that you can't use the Affidavit for handguns at all.

In this case, the Bersa's internal lock satisfies federal law, so you only need to satisfy CA law. And CA's law allows for you to use the Safe Affidavit to satisfy CA law.

So, the FFL would note the presence of the internal lock to show compliance with FEderal law and then retain the Affidavit to show compliance with CA law.

RileyBean
07-14-2012, 4:55 PM
That would NOT be a $2 lock to the gun buyer tho, rather a $10 lock!! Do what I do; buy near Xmas and they "forgot" what the law is (and their store policy) and didn't make me buy one..( and NO, it did not have an internal lock and I did not bring two armed guards with me)..Hey; its Turners..

Lol - I was not being literal, just making a point. Anyway, if I were them I'd stop doing PPTs just to avoid the stupidity.

CSACANNONEER
07-14-2012, 5:02 PM
I'm sorry, I must be reading this wrong. I thought the transaction was taking place in California.

I'm sorry, I must be reading this wrong. I thought the transaction was taking place in the portion of United States of Americacalled California. Don't federal laws apply everywhere in the country?

Chiuchimu
07-14-2012, 6:20 PM
Part A of 12088.1. states that a lock has to be included with a transfer or sale of a firearm. Doesn't say it must be new, just an approved lock, could be an oem lock or a lock that the seller threw in with the transfer. Now part E states "the sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply..." buying a new lock, dated receipt etc..

So if a lock is included in the sale or transfer there should be no reason to buy a new lock from the ffl doing the transfer, no requirements for a receipt dated within 30 days because you're complying with part A correct?

That is the law. You can bring one, have one thrown across the room to you, find one in the parking lot, or squirt one out of your nether regions. Then you are good to go.


+1
You guys are the only ones that read and understood the law.

monk
07-14-2012, 6:41 PM
Sounds like Turners is just assuming all locks included with firearms are not DOJ approved.

Chiuchimu
07-14-2012, 6:45 PM
Pretty standard with ppt, from my experiences (the part about needing to have a new lock).

What's your real complaint?
1. You're mad because this transaction required a lock at all, or...
2. You're mad because they asked you, the seller, to purchase the lock.

Answer:
1. Most ppt's I've seen have required a "new" safety device, meaning they don't usually except the lock provided by the seller, unless dated receipt etc etc. With pistols you can't "opt out" with an approved safe/container either so that's a no go route.

2. As others mentioned already, you as the seller are not really required to buy the lock, custom usually dictates the buyer would purchase their own lock.

You're being dramatic... they're not "breaking" any law!
The "law" here is clearly regulatory for "the kids" and safety. Going above and beyond a particular set of "safety" regulations is in no way shape or form "breaking the law". If you work on a tall ladder and are required to use a 3/8" diameter safety rope to help in a fall, is it then a felony for your supervisor to give you a 1/2" safety rope for that purpose? :confused:

Finally, change your thread title and take a deep breath! Not because I told you to, but because your title is at best "not well thought out" and at worst straight douchey. Nobody kicked your dog or robbed you for thousands of dollars.

Honey or vinegar... your move.
I don't care about most PPT you've seen, I'm talking about the law.

If an FFL forces you to by a lock(that is not required by law) on threat of stopping the PPT, yes that is breaking the law.



+1 AND Turner's does a lot to help us continue enjoying being able to purchase AR's and similar systems that other places are too afraid to carry. So, I would just go with flow and quit crying about a $2 lock. Besides, if I were them I'd quit doing PPTs just because of BS like this......
Go with the flow? Doesn't the law matter to you? The law states FFLs have to conduct PPT for no more than $35 unless the FFL is under special circumstances. Too Bad for you.


Really?? Are you just looking for something to b***h about? I don't blame robz for not answering you. I wouldn't either. People that make big things over petty circumstances generally won't be happy with ANY answer anyway.

The 4 people you never want to p*ss off are your doctor, mechanic, waitress and gun store. It'll never go in your favor.
Your glad turners Management doesn't understand the gun laws? Furthermore, whats with this 4 people nonsense? I don't care who I piss off. If someone breaking the law affects me than I will push my rights.

This is about the law.

orangeusa
07-14-2012, 7:14 PM
Turners usually charges $6 for a lock. OP: What's your problem? The other issue is that Federal law and State are not consistant wrt locks.... You can no longer just give the brand and model of your safe to purchase a gun.....

It's the shops that won't take a lock THAT CAME WITH THE GUN and are marked as such, and charge $15 or more that really chap my hide.

I'm neutral to Turners. They are open on Sundays, which is a plus. They are a chain, so you get all kinds of different folks at different locations who say different things....

But, man, a $6 lock?

.

gr8dragon88
07-15-2012, 8:48 AM
The Federal Child Safety Lock Act of 2005 makes it unlawful for any licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person, other than another licensee, unless the transferee (buyer) is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun.

However, effective January 1, 2002, no firearm may be sold, transferred, or manufactured within California unless that firearm is accompanied by a CA DOJ-approved firearms safety device (California Penal Code section 23620, et seq).

The safety device requirement does not apply to the following:

- Persons who can demonstrate the purchase of a DOJ-approved safety device in the 30 days prior to taking possession of the firearm by presenting the device to the firearms dealer and providing the firearms dealer with a receipt showing the purchase date and model name of the device.
- The commerce of any firearm defined as an "antique firearm" pursuant to federal law.
- The commerce of any firearm intended to be used by a salaried, full-time peace officer for law enforcement purposes.
- Transfers of firearms to persons who demonstrate ownership of a qualifying gun safe. Ownership may be demonstrated by displaying to the firearms dealer: 1) A receipt indicating purchase of, or an affidavit, signed under penalty of perjury, stating that the purchaser owns a gun safe, and 2) An affidavit, signed under penalty of perjury, stating that the gun safe meets the standards set forth in DOJ regulations.

This means that not just any gun lock will do, it must be on CA DOJ approved list. Although many manufacturers ship their guns with a lock designed to work with it, it isn’t good enough unless CA has tested and certified it. It does not require seller to provide receipt nor has a 30 days limit for the supplied lock.

And yes, CA allows CA DOJ approved gun safe to be used in lieu of gun lock so you can bring your gun safe to the store, along with the receipt or sign the affidavit affirming your ownership when picking up the gun. You cannot use the CA gun safe affidavit alone for handgun transfer since it does not meet the Fed requirements.

States and localities can pass laws/ordinances to make things harder than the Fed. There are plenty examples of this when it comes to gun laws and immigration laws, and they can be challenged in courts as we have seen recently.

Many people I spoke to, including Turner's employees/managers, are even aware of additional LA city code such as 1 in 30 for any hand gun purchase/transfer, hand gun size and ammo restrictions, etc...

If the original lock that came with the Sig is on CA DOJ approved list, you should be good to go. I've never heard of dealer requiring seller to provide a receipt for the original lock.

And no, it's not about the money, it's more about not putting up with Turner's BS rules or inconsistencies when they are supposedly the experts...

BTW - not all Turner's stores are like this, same goes for other dealers. Some know what's required and some don't... Just avoid the ones that don't know what they are doing if you can.. There are plenty of FFL dealers in CA...

RileyBean
07-15-2012, 10:08 AM
This thread certainly makes a few of us look like the stupid hillbillys the left (and Yee) think we all are. Good job (sarcasm, of course).......

monk
07-15-2012, 10:13 AM
This thread certainly makes a few of us look like the stupid hillbillys the left (and Yee) think we all are. Good job (sarcasm, of course).......

Maybe confused of the law but stupid "hillbillys"? How so?

SemperFlexibus
07-15-2012, 10:31 AM
Many laws are written vague/confusing to catch all scenarios and create jobs for judges and lawyers.. ;)

There's a joke told by tour bus drivers in DC:

When going out to lunch in DC, you run into people in the street, half of them will be lawyers and the other half will be looking for lawyers...

gr8dragon88
07-15-2012, 12:20 PM
+1 AND Turner's does a lot to help us continue enjoying being able to purchase AR's and similar systems that other places are too afraid to carry. So, I would just go with flow and quit crying about a $2 lock. Besides, if I were them I'd quit doing PPTs just because of BS like this......

Really? When was the last time you stop in places like Ammo Bros, RifleGear, OC Armory, Warrior One, Steelwater, just to name a few or the local gun shows?

With very rare exceptions, FFL dealers can't refuse to do a legal PPT unless they don't want their license anymore. It's one of the reasons why someone is allowed to have an FFL to begin with.

SemperFlexibus
07-15-2012, 12:28 PM
This thread certainly makes a few of us look like the stupid hillbillys the left (and Yee) think we all are. Good job (sarcasm, of course).......

isn't "stupid hillbillys" a double negative?

how is standing up for your rights, having a civil discussion, refusing to take BS from vendors mean someone is backward?

from what i've seen, it's most often the lefties who resort to names calling others they disagree with...

Chiuchimu
07-15-2012, 2:26 PM
Update: The real Manager at Turners Emailed me back. The person that posed as a manager was just an assistant manager.

Turner's Management and customer service knows the laws and even apologized for their employees mistake. They have set it up for the buyer to get the cost of the lock back. Turners management has clearly shown they understand the law, but they have to train their assistant managers too. When the managers not around, the assistant manager has the final say.

I am Happy with Turners management. I give them 9/10 for resolving this issue(1 point off for taking so long).

Here is their Email to me.(The date time stamp turned into a guy shooting a gun)
I include it here for all those who still don't understand the law.
From: "Don Baroni" <donb@turners.com>
To: <ss12345@yahoo.com>
Subject: Gun lock question
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:25:56 -0700

Sir,
My apologies for the delay in getting back to you, I have been out of the office for the last 12 days.
Also, my apologies for my assistants mistake. If you provide a CA approved gun lock with your PPT you don't need to purchase another one. Rest assured when the buyer comes in we will refund that purchase price to him.
Please have him look me up when he arrives so I can take care of it for him.
Thank you,
Don Baroni
Manager
Turners Outdoorsman, Reseda

retired
07-20-2012, 2:54 AM
For those who's posts were edited to remove certain comments; take note of that editing and don't repeat the rudeness. If you are unable to make your point without stating someone's comments are idiotic, who cares what you think, etc., do not make them.

One can disagree with another's post, but their own post should only state their reasons why they are doing so without a personal attack.

I cannot be more clear than that. Thank you.

hkuspcomp
07-21-2012, 6:21 AM
Update: The real Manager at Turners Emailed me back. The person that posed as a manager was just an assistant manager.

Turner's Management and customer service knows the laws and even apologized for their employees mistake. They have set it up for the buyer to get the cost of the lock back. Turners management has clearly shown they understand the law, but they have to train their assistant managers too. When the managers not around, the assistant manager has the final say.

I am Happy with Turners management. I give them 9/10 for resolving this issue(1 point off for taking so long).

Here is their Email to me.(The date time stamp turned into a guy shooting a gun)
I include it here for all those who still don't understand the law.

This is all good and everything but at what point did they BREAK the law?

DiogiDoc
07-23-2012, 8:31 AM
I have been told by Turner employee and Big5 that you need a receipt for the lock within 30 days of purchase. They both also accepted a safe affidavit in place of a lock though, so it never went any farther than that for me.

Databyter
07-24-2012, 7:00 PM
I wouldnt shop there and I would recommend to all of my buddies not to shop there if they r muscling people to conduct a lawful transfer

The problem is not the stores, it's the law.

I am selling a 6 month old shotgun, a Mossberg. I HAVE the receipt, and I still have to buy a lock, because the OEM lock is not on the California bullcrap list, even though apparently it was good enough to past muster the first time around.

It is nonsense. It is an infringement, it does not assist safety.

Original locks originally equipped with guns sold in California meet the standard, whether the law recognizes it or not, and I only wish I was rich enough to take them to court over it.

If they concede it is safe once, then they cannot say it is not safe later if it is functional.

Steve1968LS2
07-24-2012, 8:39 PM
Most.. hell.. all.. FFLs I deal with do the lock thing..

Bought and SSE XDm from EBR Works.. guess what? he made me buy a lock because the XDm lock isn't on the CA list.

Same with Ammo Brothers on all the PPTs (that I can recall) that I've done there.

It's not a Turners deal.. blame our dumbass CA laws that are so confusing most places play the "better safe than sorry" game.

fremont lapua
07-25-2012, 10:37 AM
I had the same issue with city law up in the Bay Area and you can just go buy a gun lock at Walmart for who cares how much and use it for you purchase then go back and return it. I have a safe so I should not have to buy any gun locks. What can I say out laws are screwed up.

Nitrostix
08-14-2012, 5:23 AM
OK, I just did a PTP transfer at the SH Turners. I was charged the $6 for a lock since all my locks are over 30 days old. No big deal, it's only six bucks.
But, I was also told, don't open the package, bring it back with your receipt and we will give you six dollars store credit.
No big deal, but even if I don't return it, its only six bucks.....who cares. Look what we spend on our firearms and ammo. If you have to spend six bucks due to this states absurd laws, either pay the six bucks or move.
JC

robcoe
08-14-2012, 7:14 AM
I Emailed robz@turners.com the customer service Email twice and still haven't got a response.

I recently sold my sig 2022 thru PPT at Turners Reseda. The gun has accompanied with case and original gun-lock. The manager of Turners force the purchase of a gun-lock because I the seller did not have a 30 day reciept for the gun-lock.

Please read below, Code 12088.1.1. The green section clearly says all firearm sales must be accompanied with a gun-lock. This is a requirement to purchase a firearm. The part in red says, if the gun did not come with gun-lock, you can be exempt from 12088.1.(a) meaning you can still buy the gun if you the buyer provide a gun-lock with a 30 day receipt.

The law says nothing about the seller being required to provide a receipt for the gun-lock. The red part covers the case when a gun doesn't come with a lock.

Please contact me thru PM or on this post and tell me Turners stance on this law. It is written in plain English, I don't understand why your key personal doesn't understand it. I want a written statement from someone of authority in turners recognizing how this law works. I will take this paper to turners Reseda so they get it once and for all!

They are not actually "breaking" the law(this might be why you're not getting a response, breaking the law implies they are actually committing a crime, and throwing that accusation around is not going to get a good response), they are enforcing a store policy. Unless I missed something there is nothing in that section of law you quoted that prohibits a store from setting more stringent requirements.

Joe Register
08-17-2012, 4:31 PM
They are not actually "breaking" the law(this might be why you're not getting a response, breaking the law implies they are actually committing a crime, and throwing that accusation around is not going to get a good response), they are enforcing a store policy. Unless I missed something there is nothing in that section of law you quoted that prohibits a store from setting more stringent requirements.

So if Turner's tells a PPT buyer that he can't have his gun unless he completes a basic handgun safety class is that ok? A bit more stringent?

They already make you fill out extra paperwork, as do several other bigger stores.

So they are required to do the PPTs but how much extra crap can they throw in? Can the receipt be handwritten? Can it be from another store? Can they require you to have a Turner's receipt so they know it is not "fake." This is a bit of exageration but how many extra requirements/papers/releases/locks or anything else can an FFL Like turners throw on until the are "breaking the law?"

TheHammerOfTruth
08-18-2012, 6:31 PM
Is it just me or is this the "never ending, resolved a long time ago, need to go to sleep" thread.

GMG
08-18-2012, 8:12 PM
I did a PPT yesterday as the seller, I provided a lock with no 30 day receipt. The FFL didn't
require the buyer to buy one of their locks. This was in SD County.

No I will not give up their name!

Joe Register
08-18-2012, 9:09 PM
Is it just me or is this the "never ending, resolved a long time ago, need to go to sleep" thread.

Its just you. Look elsewhere for entertainment.

robcoe
08-18-2012, 9:49 PM
So if Turner's tells a PPT buyer that he can't have his gun unless he completes a basic handgun safety class is that ok? A bit more stringent?

They already make you fill out extra paperwork, as do several other bigger stores.

So they are required to do the PPTs but how much extra crap can they throw in? Can the receipt be handwritten? Can it be from another store? Can they require you to have a Turner's receipt so they know it is not "fake." This is a bit of exageration but how many extra requirements/papers/releases/locks or anything else can an FFL Like turners throw on until the are "breaking the law?"

As much as they want untill they run into an actual law that says they can't ask you for that.

If you can find a LAW that says they cannot ask for X then they can't, or a LAW that says "these are the only requirement's, you can not ask for anything else" then they would be breaking the LAW demanding them.

Most don't do this because they don't want to lose buisness, but unless there is a specific law that says they can't requre something, they can require it.

I am amazed that the idea of "you can't break a law that dosn't exist" is that difficult a concept.

Joe Register
08-19-2012, 6:24 AM
Note to all FFls that do not want to do PPTs. Just ask for 10 fingerprints, retinal scan, DNA sample, and haul in your actual safe if you want to use the affidavit.

12voltguy
08-19-2012, 10:12 AM
Lol - I was not being literal, just making a point. Anyway, if I were them I'd stop doing PPTs just to avoid the stupidity.

they can't stop:rolleyes:
having a FFL in ca means you are required by LAW TO DO PPT , because we are required to use a FFL

fastkevin
08-20-2012, 3:51 AM
I can honestly say that the place where I do my dROs has NEVER asked me for a lock. Matter of fact, I pull 'em outta the box first thing after I buy 'em, 'cuz the damn things just get in the way when you R&Ring stuff in and out of the box.
Of course I'm not gonna spew who I go to now, so please el no ask-o.