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KWalkerM
07-12-2012, 4:07 PM
i was perusing the shotgun gallery and saw the KSG. it got me thinking about the shell limit for waterfowl and how it could be a way to have shells over 3 while still legal.

ignoring the fact that it is way over priced and a barrel that is way too short IMO. hypothetically you could use it to have 5 shots in the gun and still be legal for the same reason that you can own it in CA since its 2 seperate tubes and are changed like a magazine right? or does the F&G code disallow that? (too lazy to dig out the waterfowl regs from my truck)

discuss!

Barbarossa
07-12-2012, 4:10 PM
Below:


http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/waterfowlregs.aspx#507

507. Provisions Related to the Taking of Migratory Game Birds.

(a) Authorized Methods. Only the following methods may be used to take migratory game birds:
(1) Falconry.
(2) Bow and Arrows or Crossbows. Only arrows or crossbows bolts with flu- flu fletching may be used except that conventionally fletched arrows may be used to take waterfowl sitting on the water from scullboats or similar watercraft. Archers hunting during any archery season may not possess a firearm while in the field engaged in archery hunting.
(3) Muzzle-loading Shotguns.
(4) Shotguns 10 Gauge or Smaller. Shotguns 10 gauge or smaller using shot shells only and incapable of holding more than three shells in the magazine and chamber combined may be used. except no shotgun larger than 12 gauge shall be used in areas open to hunting on, over or adjacent to the waters of Morro Bay, San Luis Obispo County. If a plug is used to reduce the capacity of a magazine to fulfill the requirements of this section, the plug must be of one piece construction incapable of removal without disassembling the gun. Shotgun shells may not be used or possessed that contain shot size larger than No. BB in lead or T shot in steel or other nontoxic shot approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. All shot shall be loose in the shell.
(b) Use of Dogs. Dogs may be used to take and retrieve migratory game birds.
(c) Prohibition on Electronically or Mechanically-operated Devices. Electronic or mechanically-operated calling or sound-reproducing devices are prohibited when attempting to take migratory game birds. It is unlawful to use devices that are either electronically-powered, or activated by anything other than natural wind, to directly or indirectly cause rotation of decoy wings or blades that simulate wings, when attempting to take waterfowl between the start of the waterfowl season and November 30.
(d) Live Decoy Prohibition. The use of live decoys is prohibited when attempting to take migratory game birds.

KWalkerM
07-12-2012, 4:15 PM
Below:


http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/waterfowlregs.aspx#507

but its singular "magazine" in the code, the gun has 2 tube mags so theoretically you could have 5 the way im reading it. 1 in the chamber, 2 in each magazine tube.

i wouldnt want to be the test case though

taperxz
07-12-2012, 4:41 PM
The shotgun can hold no more than 3 rounds. Period! Most shotguns take more than 3 rounds. Thats why you need a plug for the shotgun.

KWalkerM
07-12-2012, 4:51 PM
The shotgun can hold no more than 3 rounds. Period! Most shotguns take more than 3 rounds. Thats why you need a plug for the shotgun.

i know, since i have to use a plug for all my shotguns. im just saying hypothetically, reading the regs and reading about the gun, the magazine tubes are individual and disconnected from the chamber when not in use. so wouldnt it be the same as using a saiga 12 and doing mag changes?

HokeySon
07-12-2012, 5:46 PM
if your premise is correct -- that each tube is a separate "magazine", I would say that under standard rules of statutory interpretation you have a great argument that you are right -- you might win on appeal, but I doubt you win in the field with a warden or a trial court. 'course it might cost you a few bucks to go that far.

jmonte35
07-12-2012, 6:33 PM
Seems pretty obvious....plug one side completely and then the other side plug with enough room for two and leave the magazine selector to the side that has two shells in.......

If your worried about nobody manufacturing a plug...just use a wooden dowel from any hardware store...about 1/2" diameter or smaller...

I've forgotten my plug before on openers and just used a tree branch cut down to size.....doesn't matter how you do it..it just can't hold more than 2 in the magazine.

jmonte35
07-12-2012, 6:35 PM
if your premise is correct -- that each tube is a separate "magazine", I would say that under standard rules of statutory interpretation you have a great argument that you are right -- you might win on appeal, but I doubt you win in the field with a warden or a trial court. 'course it might cost you a few bucks to go that far.

You'd never win because the gun is still holding more than three shells.....if the magazine was detachable and each magazine was plugged to hold only 2 rounds.....than I would say yes but its not like a rifle with a magazine....this has two ATTACHED magazines that can be selected with a switch....MUCH DIFFERENT than a simple detachable..

KWalkerM
07-12-2012, 6:35 PM
if your premise is correct -- that each tube is a separate "magazine", I would say that under standard rules of statutory interpretation you have a great argument that you are right -- you might win on appeal, but I doubt you win in the field with a warden or a trial court. 'course it might cost you a few bucks to go that far.

Well its 7+7+1 in the chamber so its 15 shot capacity and CA legal and thats what i was going on. Maybe i should move to 2A with this

jmonte35
07-12-2012, 6:36 PM
Well its 7+7+1 in the chamber so its 15 shot capacity and CA legal and thats what i was going on. Maybe i should move to 2A with this

You're in the right place...read the other comments..

mif_slim
07-12-2012, 7:16 PM
Just plug both to fit 1 shell each and 1 in the chamber. ;)

HokeySon
07-12-2012, 7:45 PM
You'd never win because the gun is still holding more than three shells.....if the magazine was detachable and each magazine was plugged to hold only 2 rounds.....than I would say yes but its not like a rifle with a magazine....this has two ATTACHED magazines that can be selected with a switch....MUCH DIFFERENT than a simple detachable..

Respectfully, your statement that "the gun is still holding more than 3 shells" is an interpretation of the statutory language based on its perceived intent and the way it has always been thought of. But that is not what the statute says. it says "the magazine" and "chamber" not "gun." I think your interpretation is likely the correct one, but not the only possible one or even the one that best fits the actual statutory language.

Of course, this was all a hypothetical -- and there was some sarcasm in my post -- but I can see his argument (if the premise is correct, which I do not know) and think it has viability. It was an intellectual puzzle -- fund to analyze. That doesn't mean it is a good idea and I do not expect that the OP or I were actually advocating taking one of these into a blind.

KWalkerM
07-13-2012, 3:46 AM
Nope not advocating it, nor do i own one so plugs are not an issue. I am curious to know what the 2A crowd would think. Just thought i would run it past here first.

taperxz
07-13-2012, 6:37 AM
Respectfully, your statement that "the gun is still holding more than 3 shells" is an interpretation of the statutory language based on its perceived intent and the way it has always been thought of. But that is not what the statute says. it says "the magazine" and "chamber" not "gun." I think your interpretation is likely the correct one, but not the only possible one or even the one that best fits the actual statutory language.

Of course, this was all a hypothetical -- and there was some sarcasm in my post -- but I can see his argument (if the premise is correct, which I do not know) and think it has viability. It was an intellectual puzzle -- fund to analyze. That doesn't mean it is a good idea and I do not expect that the OP or I were actually advocating taking one of these into a blind.

Nope not advocating it, nor do i own one so plugs are not an issue. I am curious to know what the 2A crowd would think. Just thought i would run it past here first.

In regards to this shotgun, statutorily, it's a no go. It has nothing to do with gun laws and everything to do with the F&G code. F&G is made up by the commission. "the shotgun shall not accept more than 3 rounds"

waterfern
07-13-2012, 7:55 AM
In regards to this shotgun, statutorily, it's a no go. It has nothing to do with gun laws and everything to do with the F&G code. F&G is made up by the commission. "the shotgun shall not accept more than 3 rounds"
,
For arguements sake, doesn't say " incapable of holding more than three shells in the magazine and chamber combined may be used."
And isn't that the singular usage of "magazine ". It doesn't say anything about multiple magazines, only that combined two in a mag or tube, plus one in the chamber is the configuration that they are addressing.

I do understand that even if there is a slight loophole there, the intent is there.

taperxz
07-13-2012, 8:12 AM
Just plug both to fit 1 shell each and 1 in the chamber. ;)

This I would think would work IMHO.

KWalkerM
07-13-2012, 1:16 PM
In regards to this shotgun, statutorily, it's a no go. It has nothing to do with gun laws and everything to do with the F&G code. F&G is made up by the commission. "the shotgun shall not accept more than 3 rounds"

show me exactly where in the regs it says that. I didnt read that in the excerpt previously posted from the regs. If it said that then sure its illegal, but from my knowledge it does not say anything about a gun

taperxz
07-13-2012, 3:25 PM
(a) Shotguns 10 gauge or smaller using shot shells only and incapable of holding more than three shells in the magazine and chamber combined. If a plug is used to reduce the capacity of a magazine to fulfill the requirements of this section, the plug must be of one piece construction incapable of removal without disassembling the gun.

Remember this is not gun law this is F&G. They don't want you having any more than 3 rounds in the shotgun regardless of mags configuration. Its for sporting purposes.

KWalkerM
07-13-2012, 3:36 PM
Remember this is not gun law this is F&G. They don't want you having any more than 3 rounds in the shotgun regardless of mags configuration. Its for sporting purposes.

I agree, i dont think that people should have more than 3 shots. Its fair chase. Im just pointing out a new loophole with the new gun tchnology

jmonte35
07-13-2012, 3:55 PM
This I would think would work IMHO.

I think it would work too...but the damn gun has a magazine selector....it would suck to fire pump shoot than have to remember to switch the selector to the other magazine.....

I think it would be best to plug one completely and leave one side capable of holding only 2.

But like you said plugging for one for each side would work.

Edit....I think it would be hilarious to see f & g try to figure it out.....

lewdogg21
07-14-2012, 5:20 AM
How heavy are those things? I have a feeling it would be a punishing day. Last summer I did some patterning work for the first time with duck loads using my Benelli and to be honest I was shocked at how hard the recoil was from various #3, #2, and BB loads. While shooting at ducks you never feel anything except maybe when it's a 2 box plus day or you take one off the bicep.

doublebuck
07-14-2012, 9:41 AM
Rifle is 10rd because of the band but shotgun is 3rd for birds.

KWalkerM
07-14-2012, 10:15 AM
How heavy are those things? I have a feeling it would be a punishing day. Last summer I did some patterning work for the first time with duck loads using my Benelli and to be honest I was shocked at how hard the recoil was from various #3, #2, and BB loads. While shooting at ducks you never feel anything except maybe when it's a 2 box plus day or you take one off the bicep.

I think they are pretty light, probably kills your shoulder.