FFL obligations to process transfer?

[dave92029]

US citizens are required to use FFL's as an intemediary to process the transfer of firearms between individuals, but are FFL's obligated to process the transaction if we are a law abiding citizen?

I have spoken with several local FFL's and they appear unwilling to do the transfer from out of state dealers. They say that they will order the gun for me....if I'm lucky, at a higher price.

We as individuals are regulated and must use the FFL's but what are the FFL obligations to us?

I understand that numerous FFL's claim that they "MUST collect "Sales Tax" on the transfer, but my understanding is that the individual is responsible for paying the "USE TAX" , same rate as sales tax. Can't say why but I have a feeling that the FFL's are pocketing the "Sales Tax" that they collect because the state doesn't know that they collected it since they have not made a "Sale" in California.

There is no standard rate charged by the FFL's when they do a transfer.

The Federal and California gun laws are already restrictive, but the FFL's are adding their own limits on what we can but and what we pay.:eek:

[rkt88edmo]

They do what they think they need to do in order to be a profitable business. :shrug:

Keep looking or post your location, there probably is an FFL that agrees with you not too far away, unless you are going to balk at paying $50 on top of the transfer fees as well.

[Fjold]

US citizens are required to use FFL's as an intemediary to process the transfer of firearms between individuals, but are FFL's obligated to process the transaction if we are a law abiding citizen?

Actually that only applies in certain states and under certain conditions. If you live in many free states you can do face-to-face transfers without an FFL. Change the statement to California residents and it would apply.


I have spoken with several local FFL's and they appear unwilling to do the transfer from out of state dealers. They say that they will order the gun for me....if I'm lucky, at a higher price.

If you go into the local Ford dealership will he order you a car from a dealer in Arizona that sells it for less and take less profit transferring it to you or will he insist on selling you the vehicle that he has in stock?


We as individuals are regulated and must use the FFL's but what are the FFL obligations to us?

The FFL's are required to follow the laws of the US and regulations set out by the BATFE along with State laws and regulations.


I understand that numerous FFL's claim that they "MUST collect "Sales Tax" on the transfer, but my understanding is that the individual is responsible for paying the "USE TAX" , same rate as sales tax. Can't say why but I have a feeling that the FFL's are pocketing the "Sales Tax" that they collect because the state doesn't know that they collected it since they have not made a "Sale" in California.

Sales tax is spelled out as being required to be paid by the buyer and regulations are in place allowing the retailers to collect it at the point of sale. Since the firearms transfer will be in the Dealer's bound book and the DROS would be entered in the DOJ computer it would be stupid to not report the sales tax because there is a paper trail.


There is no standard rate charged by the FFL's when they do a transfer.

Correct, except fot PTP transfers it is not regulated, it's called free enterprise.


The Federal and California gun laws are already restrictive, but the FFL's are adding their own limits on what we can but and what we pay.:eek:

Every business not just FFl's, set their policies and prices within the constraints of laws and regulations in accordance with their own business plan.

[dave92029]

Yes, what you say makes sense IF the FFL's didn't have an UNREGULATED MONOPOLY on what guns are sold or transferred between individuals.

Without the FFL Monopoly I could go wherever I selected to acquire a legal gun and negotiate the most favorable price to me. That is not possible in California. I must either buy a legal gun from an FFL or transfer ownership through a FFL IF they want to do it and at whatever price they decide to charge.

What would you say if we allowed the water, or electric company the same powers as the FFL's?

[VeryCoolCat]

Then go to a GOOD gunstore instead. I'd drive an extra 30 minutes to get to a good gun store and pay an extra $25 in fees.

Ammo Bros, Ades, even el rojo in taft with his pink rifle :p

[Fjold]

Yes, what you say makes sense IF the FFL's didn't have an UNREGULATED MONOPOLY on what guns are sold or transferred between individuals.

Without the FFL Monopoly I could go wherever I selected to acquire a legal gun and negotiate the most favorable price to me. That is not possible in California. I must either buy a legal gun from an FFL or transfer ownership through a FFL IF they want to do it and at whatever price they decide to charge.

What would you say if we allowed the water, or electric company the same powers as the FFL's?

You are misusing the term "Monopoly". A monopoly would only apply if all the FFLs were owned by one company and you didn't have a choice of different companies to go to. Most FFLs are independent companies and set their own prices and terms except for the prices for transfers set by the state.

You have the choice to select any FFL that you wish to do business with, different FFLs charge different amounts and have different policies. They do not have an "unregulated monopoly on what guns are sold or transferred between individuals." The State or federal Governments determines these things.

The water company and electric and gas companies do have a monopoly in specific areas.

Since the state screwed up electrical deregulation a few years back that have gone back to the utilities as the only source of consumer power. PG&E, SCE, Sempra. NCPA, City utilites, irrigation districts etc are all granted specific sections of the state that they are allowed to operate exclusively in and in the huge majority of the state the consumer has no options for service or price.

I can only buy home water from one source because Vaughn Water owns the distribution piping in my neighborhood. I can not buy water from anyone else.

Sempra (The Gas Company) is the only company that I can buy natural gas from in my area also. They installed and own the distribution piping so they are granted the monopoly by the City of Bakersfield to sell gas in our area. The charter they are granted by the city allows them to recoupe their installation and maintenance cost of the piping without charging individual consumers thousands of dollars for each installation. The city also mandates that the build enough piping in these areas to service all the customers living there.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Man, how many times can we beat this one to death?

You can choose any FFL you want to do business with. You do not have to go to a certain FFL. If your FFL charges too much and won't let you transfer cheap guns from out of state for a small fee, that is his choice. You can choose not to do business with him. Your example would make more sense if all FFLs were working together to raise prices, but that is simply not the case.

The sales tax issue has been hammered to death as well. It makes no sense why a dealer would give you a receipt that clearly shows you paid sales tax and then try and keep that tax money when it can so easily be shown the dealer is breaking the law.

And for more discussion on the actual tax rules as far as dealers go, you can go to this thread and read up on it. The state considers me the retailer even though you paid someone out of state for the gun. I have been instructed by the Board of Equalization to collect sales tax on your retail purchase. They do not consider the firearm I am transfering to be a use tax item. I don't like it, it doesn't make sense, but the tax laws aren't made to make sense, they are made to make cents. Cents for the government.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=51391&highlight=boe+retail

You also have the choice of opening your own gun shop and doing your part to help get guns to the people for cheaper. That is what I did. Then I learned that my time is more valuable than I thought and now I am just a money loving, capitalist swine that loves profit more than anything else.

[Dump1567]

Out of State transfers is why my dealer's inventory hasn't reduced very much over the past few months. Shop's always packed with a buyer getting a "better deal" from out of state. Wholesale price, no tax and a cheap transfer price. If it was my bussiness, I'd probably make some changes. But as the consumer, I'm loving it.:D

[rkt88edmo]

Man, how many times can we beat this one to death?

Until the end of the internet or the end of clampdowns on FFLs by BATFE and the DOJ :boxing_smiley:

[peter455]

US citizens are required to use FFL's as an intemediary to process the transfer of firearms between individuals, but are FFL's obligated to process the transaction if we are a law abiding citizen?

I have spoken with several local FFL's and they appear unwilling to do the transfer from out of state dealers. They say that they will order the gun for me....if I'm lucky, at a higher price.

We as individuals are regulated and must use the FFL's but what are the FFL obligations to us?

I understand that numerous FFL's claim that they "MUST collect "Sales Tax" on the transfer, but my understanding is that the individual is responsible for paying the "USE TAX" , same rate as sales tax. Can't say why but I have a feeling that the FFL's are pocketing the "Sales Tax" that they collect because the state doesn't know that they collected it since they have not made a "Sale" in California.

There is no standard rate charged by the FFL's when they do a transfer.

The Federal and California gun laws are already restrictive, but the FFL's are adding their own limits on what we can but and what we pay.:eek:

It’s unbelievable to me that some here are up in arms about FFL fees of $50 -$100 and going as far as calling FFL’s crooks, when the real monopoly’s like the cable, phone, gas, and electric companies are raping you for thousands of dollars every year, with the blessing of your elected leaders. Last I checked my cable bill is over a $100 a month, my phone bill has charges on it that no one can explain, and I seem to have no second choice for these services.

The suggestion that DOJ or ATF should force dealers to do a transfer for you is so absurd that it boggles the mind. It shows that you have not given this any thought beyond your own interest.

Would you really have the government force even more regulations on gun stores just so you can save a few bucks?

[SoCalAR]

Hey Wes,

"You also have the choice of opening your own gun shop and doing your part to help get guns to the people for cheaper. That is what I did."

Do you support more folks obtaining FFL's? Seems it would be a good thing in that there would be more opportunity for law-abiding citizens to have access to firearms but at the same time more FFL's mean more competition for shops like you.

I guess what I'm asking is your opinion on public service vs. profit. I feel what you do is a public service and a necessary one but you have to make money in order to continue. That's the way capitalist swinery has to work:D

What are your thoughts?

[dwtt]

US citizens are required to use FFL's as an intemediary to process the transfer of firearms between individuals, but are FFL's obligated to process the transaction if we are a law abiding citizen?

I have spoken with several local FFL's and they appear unwilling to do the transfer from out of state dealers.

The Federal and California gun laws are already restrictive, but the FFL's are adding their own limits on what we can but and what we pay.:eek:

Dave, you seem to be confused about this. If the FFL doesn't want to do the transfer, he's free to turn you down, just like you're free to choose which FFL you want to patronize.
As for the FFL's adding their own limits on what you can buy and what you pay, FFL's follow the law, so don't expect a dealer in CA to transfer a Colt Sporter.
Here's a suggestion Dave, open a dealership of your own, and transfer any and all guns for your customers, charging them only the price they want to pay.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Hey Wes,

"You also have the choice of opening your own gun shop and doing your part to help get guns to the people for cheaper. That is what I did."

Do you support more folks obtaining FFL's? Seems it would be a good thing in that there would be more opportunity for law-abiding citizens to have access to firearms but at the same time more FFL's mean more competition for shops like you.

I guess what I'm asking is your opinion on public service vs. profit. I feel what you do is a public service and a necessary one but you have to make money in order to continue. That's the way capitalist swinery has to work:D

What are your thoughts?

This is a loaded question. As an exploiter, I want to force everyone out of business and make maximum profit. As a gun lover, everyone should get their FFL and flood the state with weapons.

To answer honestly, I am not a public service. I am not doing this for you to feel good about yourself. I am now doing it for money. If my customer service and prices are good and you get a warm fuzzy when you leave my shop, that makes me happy too. However, until you actually take the time, energy, and money to start your own business, you can't understand that the business owns you, you do not own the business.

If I was smart, I would have never gotten into the gun business. I would have come home after school, played video games, romanced my wife, and basically enjoyed my life. Instead, every day after I work a full time job, I come to a gun shop and work another 2-10 hours. After church on Sundays I go to the gun shop instead of making love and taking a nap.

I am sorry, but I have met a bunch of you and none of you look as good as my wife, so please understand when I would much rather be spending time with her. So if I am going to make that sacrifice, I gotta buy her that new diamond ring she wants and I can't make that on 10% profit. She doesn't care about this investment long term, she has short term thinking.

Most guys get it. Some guys want a bargain at any cost. I am not bitter, that is just the way the game is played. It is just the way it is.

(however, when I do build a customer's AR, I must admit that sure is fun to hold the finished product :D )