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bones138
05-30-2007, 12:27 AM
Study: Soldiers Want Deadlier Guns

Military.com | By Christian Lowe | May 25, 2007

Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons, though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.

Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.

"Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more stopping power/lethality," the report said.

The study was commissioned by the Army's Project Manager for Soldier Weapons to address concerns raised by Soldiers returning from combat about the dependability and effectiveness of their small arms.

"This study assessed Soldier perspectives on the reliability and durability of their weapons systems in combat to aid in decisions regarding current and future small arms needs of the Army," said the study, which was obtained by Military.com.

CNA surveyors conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty, asking them a variety of questions about accessories, weapons training, maintenance and recommended changes to their small arms.

"The U.S. Army Infantry Center is conducting a study to refine the Army's Small Arms Strategy, which focuses on the employment of rifles, carbines, ammunition caliber, and future technologies," said Army spokesman, Lt. Col. William Wiggins, in a statement. "All Services are participating in this study, which is expected in the July/August 2007 timeframe."

The survey lends weight to Army claims that current-issued weapons are effective despite growing criticism from Soldiers and lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the service should re-assess the standard M4 - as well as the M9 pistol.

In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) sent a letter to acting Army secretary Pete Geren taking issue with the service's sole-source contract to buy about 500,000 M4 carbines despite evidence that new rifle technologies could provide more reliable weapons.
The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight.

Though vocal critics of the M4 say it's prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat.

But of those with malfunctioning M4s, nearly 20 percent said they were "unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage," the report said.
Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."

"Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached."

The CNA surveyors also asked Soldiers for their opinions on possible improvements to their small arms. The top request from Soldiers was for more knock-down power, reigniting the debate over America's small arms caliber choices.

"When speaking to experts and Soldiers on site, many commented on the limited ability to effectively stop targets, saying that those personnel targets who were shot multiple times were still able to continue pursuit," the report said.
A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and "some were more specific and requested a return to the Colt .45 for standard issue pistols," including others who asked for hollow-point ammo.

Hollow point rounds have been deemed illegal for military use.
Additionally, M16 users were "consistent and adamant" in asking to be re-issued the more compact M4.

jdberger
05-30-2007, 12:32 AM
Well, this is a no brainer. It's like asking kindergartners if they want to eat paste.

Back in the middle ages when I was a soldier, I wanted a bullet-proof/nuke-proof tank with over the horizon smart weapon capability and a mine detector out front (hate freakin' mines).

Unfortunately, the Army said that was a little expensive so I should just shut up and get back to work. :o

Okami
05-30-2007, 03:41 AM
[QUOTE Unfortunately, the Army said that was a little expensive so I should just shut up and get back to work. :o[/QUOTE]

:smilielol5: Ain't that the truth!

:cheers2:

smle-man
05-30-2007, 07:28 AM
All soldiers want a personal weapon with the lethality of 12ga slug that has a range of a thousand yards with a projectile that homes on the bad guys once it is launched, holds a hundred rounds with the reliability of a flat rock. Oh, and it will weigh a pound and a half fully loaded.;)

I started with the M14 and finished with the M16A2. My son started with the M16A2 and now has an M4. He says that the M16A2 feels like a civil war musket in comparison to the M4. Most individual weapons are carried much more than they are fired even in combat so there is a trade off on caliber vs. weight/length.

luvtolean
05-30-2007, 07:29 AM
Yeah, this article is like saying racers want more horsepower.

Uhm...duh.

But, the stoppage info is interesting. Time to start doing qualifying testing of weapons with all the toys bolted on.

EricCartmann
05-30-2007, 08:35 AM
Study: [insert any of the below here]

- Soldiers want more money

- Soldiers want to go to to war where the female to male ratio is higher

- Soldiers want more alchohol

1911su16b870
05-30-2007, 09:24 AM
MK19? (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19.htm)

I think this foots the bill...:)

Wulf
05-30-2007, 09:55 AM
I wonder if I could get a big grant from the army to study similar obvious questions.

Bigger Tata's?
Sexier Lingere?
Faster Cars?
Bigger TVs?
Longer Leave Time?

Fjold
05-30-2007, 09:56 AM
All soldiers want a personal weapon with the lethality of 12ga slug that has a range of a thousand yards with a projectile that homes on the bad guys once it is launched, holds a hundred rounds with the reliability of a flat rock. Oh, and it will weigh a pound and a half fully loaded.;)



With no recoil.

Spaceghost
05-30-2007, 10:56 AM
*mandatory Terminator quote*

Plasma rifle with a 40 watt range.

Prc329
05-30-2007, 12:38 PM
This study is stupid. Asking a soldier, especially at war time, if he wants a more powerful weapon is like asking a guy if he wants more sex, or if they want more money, or asking a fat kid if he wants more chocolate cake.

Of course they will say yes.

Soldier415
05-30-2007, 12:48 PM
All we want is our ding dang 1911's back as a sidearm...

cartman
05-30-2007, 07:16 PM
All we want is our ding dang 1911's back as a sidearm...

Most of my friends in the military said the same thing.

CSDGuy
05-31-2007, 12:10 PM
Here's food for thought... HP ammo can be used by the military unless BOTH nations are signatories to the treaty that prohibits their use... I'd expect that soldiers that use HP ammo and FMJ ammo back to back in fights should probably see a bit of a difference in performance...

I don't recall Iraq being a signatory nation under the treaty...

Spiggy
05-31-2007, 12:26 PM
This study is stupid. Asking a soldier, especially at war time, if he wants a more powerful weapon is like asking a guy if he wants more sex, or if they want more money, or asking a fat kid if he wants more chocolate cake.
:D Yes please to all of the above

Crazed_SS
05-31-2007, 12:48 PM
Most of my friends in the military said the same thing.

The only guys in the military who would even remember the 1911 would be salty MSgts and LtCols.. people who have been in for 20 years or so.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
06-01-2007, 08:21 AM
Did I read that right, that soldiers who had put more pistol grips and lights and lasers and spoons on their rifles experienced more jams? How do they expect to find a correlation there?

Fjold
06-01-2007, 08:36 AM
Did I read that right, that soldiers who had put more pistol grips and lights and lasers and spoons on their rifles experienced more jams? How do they expect to find a correlation there?

Just an opinion:

Maybe the ones who are doing all the shooting out front are the ones doing the modifications and getting the 'normal' level of failures and the REMF's who never use their guns and don't care about them don't add any aftermarket parts and don't ever have any failures.

Dr. Peter Venkman
06-01-2007, 08:43 AM
If the troops were satisfied with their weapons they wouldn't say so otherwise.

Soldier415
06-01-2007, 08:44 AM
The only guys in the military who would even remember the 1911 would be salty MSgts and LtCols.. people who have been in for 20 years or so.

I beg to differ, certain units are authorized personal sidearms.

Pulsar
06-01-2007, 05:41 PM
Yeah, almost all special forces units are still packing the good ol' 1911.

More reliable and more stopping power, only falls short in the magazine capacity.

Boomer1961
06-01-2007, 09:25 PM
Study: Soldiers Want Deadlier Guns

Military.com | By Christian Lowe | May 25, 2007

Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."


"Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached.".


Army Interpretation of study: :cool2:

Ban all accessories to improve reliability of the soldiers weapons as accessories are causing these troubles plus they cost allot of money and having soldiers pimp their weapon does not foster comradely.

Also all the duct tape in the middle east needs to be collected up and burned as it is affecting combat efficiency and studies indicate a 0.0065% increase in ali babba kills if the troopers did not apply duct tape to their weapon.


Soldiers interpretation of study: :cool:

The soldiers most likely to see combat and that have the most engagements rely on accessories to increase the effectiveness of their weapons. Their weapons are getting the most use (chances to jam) and wear from use and training (increased probability of jamming). Those in support elements don't accessorize but coincidentally don't have many chances to use their weapon to find if it jams and don't take it out of the box much so it does not get much wear.

Also the use of duct tape is sometimes all there is to put their weapon back together again. Without it they would have a weapon that does not work at all instead of one more prone to jamming.




....seriously though I do struggle with the duct tape part as that sounds corny and I have never seen that applied to weapons on any video from the front. I have heard of duct tape being used on weapons towards the end of WWII and Korea for things like cracked/broken stocks and missing screw/bands and such but not much since then, even in Vietnam.


Anyone here of any of the troopers using duct tape to apply their EoTech or laser to their weapon?:eek:

loneeagle308
06-02-2007, 11:06 AM
The corpsman I talked to in Fallujah prefered the M4 for distance but always the AK while doing house to house. Or closer work, the H&K branded Benelli.

FortCourageArmory
06-02-2007, 12:25 PM
If a soldier is *****in' about a more powerful SIDEARM, he's got bigger issues.....like why the hell is he using a sidearm in a firefight? It's a last-ditch weapon. If it's gotten to that point, he's already in the swamp up to his neck in alligators.

And for those in the military advocating the return of the 1911, have any of them heard of Springfield XDs or maybe Glock 20s? If we have to take a giant step backwards in personal sidearms, at least use 21st century technology. I'm suprised no one has asked that the armed forces go back to using Single Action Armys.....:25:

The current M4s and M9s are great weapons. I would and have trusted my life to either of them.

Wulf
06-02-2007, 12:40 PM
If a soldier is *****in' about a more powerful SIDEARM, he's got bigger issues.....like why the hell is he using a sidearm in a firefight? It's a last-ditch weapon. If it's gotten to that point, he's already in the swamp up to his neck in alligators.

There's a story in Front Sight last month (that's the USPSA magazine). The article was written by a guy down in Texas that runs one of the USPSA clubs. He got a call from a man that used to shoot with the club. The mans son also shot matches with the club. The Father was calling to thank the author of the story for saving his sons life. Turns out the son is grown up now and serving in Iraq. He got into a fire fight and his M4 went down (sheared off the carrier key bolts IIRC so it was not fixable). The son finished the firefight with his pistol (presumably a Beretta but it didnt say), shooting up 4 mags before it was over. IIRC enemy kia was 6. The son credited his survival with his ability to fight with his pistol and his skill with the pistol to his USPSA shooting.

What's funny is in the article there's a picture of the soldier sitting under a tarp with the desert stretching off in the distance behind him, between his knees he's cradling a M-14. :43: