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DuknBucks
07-10-2012, 2:48 PM
:mad: My wife has owned her own business now for 15 years. (In home day care). Periodically the state will come in for "drop in" inspections which hasnt really been an issue before.

It does supprise me that everytime they show up they ask to see the inside of my gun safe? They continue to use the reason that they must "verify" that i have no loaded firearms of ammunition stored inside.

my response to that is the door is clearly locked and a combination is required to open it.......so why does my wife need to open the door for them? During her first visit she did open the door and they just looked in from 5' feet away and said that looks good. what does that acutually acomplish?

I am doing the research on the law that allows them to enter our home and inspect.

My question is how can I legally refuse acess without comprimising her liscense?

Ctwo
07-10-2012, 2:54 PM
Aren't there defined areas of the property that are allocated for business and others for personal private dwelling? I mean, are they obliged to inspect your wife's panty drawer?

Rossi357
07-10-2012, 2:56 PM
:mad: My wife has owned her own business now for 15 years. (In home day care). Periodically the state will come in for "drop in" inspections which hasnt really been an issue before.

It does supprise me that everytime they show up they ask to see the inside of my gun safe? They continue to use the reason that they must "verify" that i have no loaded firearms of ammunition stored inside.

my response to that is the door is clearly locked and a combination is required to open it.......so why does my wife need to open the door for them? During her first visit she did open the door and they just looked in from 5' feet away and said that looks good. what does that acutually acomplish?

I am doing the research on the law that allows them to enter our home and inspect.

My question is how can I legally refuse acess without comprimising her liscense?

Probably by entering in to a license agreement with the state, she gave up the right to deny them entrance to the premesis. If they want the gunsafe open she can tell them she doesn't know the combination.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 3:00 PM
change combination, don't tell wife.

DuknBucks
07-10-2012, 3:04 PM
Probably by entering in to a license agreement with the state, she gave up the right to deny them entrance to the premesis. If they want the gunsafe open she can tell them she doesn't know the combination.

that is what i advised her to do and she did...the repsonse given was she must know the combo to show them no ammunition is in there. they want to see in there on the next visit. ( the last one was five years ago)

DuknBucks
07-10-2012, 3:09 PM
Aren't there defined areas of the property that are allocated for business and others for personal private dwelling? I mean, are they obliged to inspect your wife's panty drawer?

I think this may be the key...there are areas "off limits" the kids in care but the aggreement may have acess to the entire house and contents? not sure yet.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 3:28 PM
Is the property yours? (aka the Safe) Did you sign any agreement? Tell them to piss off and have Jason Davis on speed dial if they try to kill your wifes license.

Though, this is the price you pay for contracting with the government.

Alan Block
07-10-2012, 3:31 PM
I am glad that they can and do inspect child care facilities given some of the horror stories over the years.

shadowofnight
07-10-2012, 3:33 PM
Access to entire house and yard for inspection, no area is off limits.
They want ammunition separate from firearms, and both locked up as well.

http://www.ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/RegHighlightsEnglish.pdf

Bottom of page 3, 102417.

DuknBucks
07-10-2012, 3:36 PM
Is the property yours? (aka the Safe) Did you sign any agreement? Tell them to piss off and have Jason Davis on speed dial if they try to kill your wifes license.

Though, this is the price you pay for contracting with the government.

yes the safe belongs to me. Its been so long since she got certified ...i dont remember ever signing anything other than Live scan paperwork for the criminal background checks.

DuknBucks
07-10-2012, 3:46 PM
I am glad that they can and do inspect child care facilities given some of the horror stories over the years.

A locked safe is a locked safe......the kids have no acess what so ever. I think this is a perfect example of "over reaching" authority by the state.

Scream_4637
07-10-2012, 4:05 PM
A locked safe is a locked safe......the kids have no acess what so ever. I think this is a perfect example of "over reaching" authority by the state.
I agree...

My wife does the same thing. I keep my safe in one of the off-limits room. Lady did not inspect safe or ask about it during last inspection (about 3 weeks ago).

Let me know what you find out because I also read that ammo and guns need to be separate as well.

littlejake
07-10-2012, 4:08 PM
Access to entire house and yard for inspection, no area is off limits.
They want ammunition separate from firearms, and both locked up as well.

http://www.ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/RegHighlightsEnglish.pdf

Bottom of page 3, 102417.

The language seems pretty clear.

paul0660
07-10-2012, 4:16 PM
The language seems pretty clear.

It does. It is the responsibility of the provider to follow those rules. Once the inspector is aware of the safe, they have the authority and responsibility to make certain the rules are adhered to. This has nothing to do with kids and guns. It has to do with applying and getting a license and following the requirements of the license.

Kukuforguns
07-10-2012, 4:22 PM
102391 INSPECTION AUTHORITY
• The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect the Family Child Care Home and to privately interview children or staff to determine compliance with, or to prevent violations of, family child care laws or regulations. This shall be done during the home’s normal business hours or when children are in care.
• The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access.
There you go. If child care services are not provided in the room with the safe and if children have no access to the room with the safe, then you are not required to permit the Department to inspect that room. At the next visit, politely advise the inspectors that no children are ever present in that room and point out the above regulation.

If children do have access to that room, then the Department has an excellent argument that they can see the insides of the safe.

paul0660
07-10-2012, 4:27 PM
There you go. If child care services are not provided in the room with the safe and if children have no access to the room with the safe, then you are not required to permit the Department to inspect that room. At the next visit, politely advise the inspectors that no children are ever present in that room and point out the above regulation.

If children do have access to that room, then the Department has an excellent argument that they can see the insides of the safe.

Even better. Thanks kuku.

twinfin
07-10-2012, 4:41 PM
Perhaps even a lock/locking door knob on the door to the room with the safe would demonstrate that children have no access to that area.

Now that they know the safe is there, they are likely to ask to see it in the future so you would want to be solid in your claim that the area truly is inaccessible to the children.

dantodd
07-10-2012, 6:02 PM
paint up a refrigerator cardboard box like a doll house and the next time they come by drop it over the safe.

DuknBucks
07-10-2012, 6:33 PM
paint up a refrigerator cardboard box like a doll house and the next time they come by drop it over the safe.

that's funny!.....Lincoln45 and I had a similar idea with a bed sheet and a potted plant. :rolleyes:

Moving the safe is not going to happen since its a large Cannon (1ooolbs) its anchored to a bridge footing on the first level of my house. so whats next....remove every weapon and open the action to show them its empty? this whole thing is starting to piss me off.

Smokeybehr
07-10-2012, 7:19 PM
Have we not taught you well enough, DuknBucks? Repeat after me:

DO YOU HAVE A WARRANT?

If they don't, then they can pound sand. Remember their own regulations: "The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access." The converse of that is that they CANNOT inspect where the children DO NOT have access.

Smokeybehr
07-10-2012, 7:19 PM
Have we not taught you well enough, DuknBucks? Repeat after me:

DO YOU HAVE A WARRANT?

If they don't, then they can pound sand. Remember their own regulations: "The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access." The converse of that is that they CANNOT inspect where the children DO NOT have access.

Old4eyes
07-10-2012, 7:32 PM
Reading through the PDF, I'd say you're going to have to allow access.

Possibly the easiest way to handle this is to have a separate locked cabinet to store the ammo, maybe even next to the safe. Open both and say see, separate from each other and separate locks.

And by storing the ammo in another cabinet, more space for more guns. At least that's about the only positive spin you could put on the situation.

zhyla
07-10-2012, 7:40 PM
Remember their own regulations: "The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access." The converse of that is that they CANNOT inspect where the children DO NOT have access.

"Access" is not as straight forward as you're implying. Just because kids are not allowed in that room during the day doesn't mean a kid can't somehow find its way into the room. Likewise just because guns are in a safe doesn't mean the safe can't be mistakenly left unlocked.

Part of being in a heavily regulated industry and running it from your home means you have to put up with crap that most of us don't.

morfeeis
07-10-2012, 7:50 PM
I am glad that they can and do inspect child care facilities given some of the horror stories over the years.
Post like this make me so sad.

they are running a private business, if the parents of the children don't have the wisdom to check the place out themselves then they aren't going to have the intelligence to raise function members of society anyway. The government shouldn't have right to enter their home in the first place.

got ar?
07-10-2012, 8:33 PM
Probably by entering in to a license agreement with the state, she gave up the right to deny them entrance to the premesis. If they want the gunsafe open she can tell them she doesn't know the combination.

As a Foster Care daycare license at my home at least in san diego, the social workers can inspect any part of your house yes including your safe at anytime. failure to do so will make things worse they can make a referral to child protective service... cops arrive and your kids are gone i seen this exact scenerio happened before with another family. i urge you to be cooperative with the social worker and open the safe ( stash your assault rifles)and do the right thing

dobek
07-10-2012, 8:34 PM
put a dead bolt on the door (I'm sure you will use it even when they aren't there to inspect) -

When they ask - politely tell them that that area is unaccessible to anyone other than you....

Have a nice day....

Steve

erik_26
07-10-2012, 8:54 PM
I am confused....?


They want to make sure the guns aren't loaded and that there is no ammunition in the safe?


Guns not loaded... well I get the intention, but what about your right to self defence?

No ammunition in the safe??? Where are you supposed to store it? In the coloring box so the little ones can chew on it and eat it?

DuknBucks
07-11-2012, 2:30 AM
Reading through the PDF, I'd say you're going to have to allow access.

Possibly the easiest way to handle this is to have a separate locked cabinet to store the ammo, maybe even next to the safe. Open both and say see, separate from each other and separate locks.

And by storing the ammo in another cabinet, more space for more guns. At least that's about the only positive spin you could put on the situation.

this is basically already the case......I guess I just dont want anyone from the state looking in my safe......that bugs me

dantodd
07-11-2012, 6:08 AM
i urge you to be cooperative with the social worker and open the safe ( stash your assault rifles)and do the right thing

Why would you assume that the OP would either have to hide perfectly legal weapons or have illegal weapons? Also, since the inspections are unannounced he needs a permanent solution, or at least semi-permanent.

dantodd
07-11-2012, 6:11 AM
this is basically already the case......I guess I just dont want anyone from the state looking in my safe......that bugs me

Mine is in the back room of the basement, o access from inside the house. It seems your only way to keep them out is to keep the safe where it's not considered within the care facility.

Wherryj
07-11-2012, 8:12 AM
that's funny!.....Lincoln45 and I had a similar idea with a bed sheet and a potted plant. :rolleyes:

Moving the safe is not going to happen since its a large Cannon (1ooolbs) its anchored to a bridge footing on the first level of my house. so whats next....remove every weapon and open the action to show them its empty? this whole thing is starting to piss me off.

Remodel with hidden safe behind locking door?

meaty-btz
07-11-2012, 8:35 AM
Remodel with hidden safe behind locking door?

Which is how everyones safe should be mounted. Open mounted safes are bait to be taken, and yes thieves have been stealing 1000# bolted down safes. False walls and concealed doors are where you safe should be mounted. Can't steal what you can't fin, can't find what you don't know about.

OlderThanDirt
07-11-2012, 8:38 AM
You're going to love the new requirement requiring inspectors to do a full body cavity check for drugs.

paul0660
07-11-2012, 8:39 AM
Post like this make me so sad.

they are running a private business, if the parents of the children don't have the wisdom to check the place out themselves then they aren't going to have the intelligence to raise function members of society anyway. The government shouldn't have right to enter their home in the first place.

No amount of initial "checking" by parents can figure out what is really going on. There is value in .gov monitoring these places if they follow their own rules.

Whatever "function members of society" means, I guess you are counted in?

jimx
07-11-2012, 8:43 AM
As a Foster Care daycare license at my home at least in san diego, the social workers can inspect any part of your house yes including your safe at anytime. failure to do so will make things worse they can make a referral to child protective service... cops arrive and your kids are gone i seen this exact scenerio happened before with another family. i urge you to be cooperative with the social worker and open the safe ( stash your assault rifles)and do the right thing

Part of the paperwork I signed when my foster kid moved in was agreeing to let CPS inspect all areas of my home at any time and at least once a year. SW's have a lot of power and they think they have more.

Untamed1972
07-11-2012, 8:49 AM
Access to entire house and yard for inspection, no area is off limits.
They want ammunition separate from firearms, and both locked up as well.

http://www.ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/RegHighlightsEnglish.pdf

Bottom of page 3, 102417.

I wonder if that would now be challengable under Heller since "locked, unloaded storage in the home" has been struck down as unconstitutional?

taperxz
07-11-2012, 8:56 AM
I wonder if that would now be challengable under Heller since "locked, unloaded storage in the home" has been struck down as unconstitutional?

Probably not. Engaging in the regulated activity, subjects you to certain rules. If you don't like the rules, don't engage in the activity.

Eg: bow hunting deer during the archery only season, prohibits the hunter from possession of a firearm. Dont like it? Don't engage in the regulated activity.

It's lame! But?

PackingHeatInSDCA
07-11-2012, 4:13 PM
102391 INSPECTION AUTHORITY
• The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect the Family Child Care Home
and to privately interview children or staff to determine compliance with, or to
prevent violations of, family child care laws or regulations. This shall be done during
the home’s normal business hours or when children are in care.
• The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which
family child care services are provided or where children have access.

....

It seems straight forward to me. They can inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access.

Question is: is the safe located in such an area? if not, tell them NO

Ron-Solo
07-11-2012, 4:22 PM
Have we not taught you well enough, DuknBucks? Repeat after me:

DO YOU HAVE A WARRANT?

If they don't, then they can pound sand. Remember their own regulations: "The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access." The converse of that is that they CANNOT inspect where the children DO NOT have access.

And the response will be simple, license denied. They don't have to issue a license.

Rossi357
07-11-2012, 4:25 PM
Lock the door to the room the safe is in?

SeanCasey
07-11-2012, 4:37 PM
Have we not taught you well enough, DuknBucks? Repeat after me:

DO YOU HAVE A WARRANT?

If they don't, then they can pound sand. Remember their own regulations: "The licensee shall permit the Department to inspect any part of the home in which family child care services are provided or where children have access." The converse of that is that they CANNOT inspect where the children DO NOT have access.

Not quite, their verbage is what allows it, lets break it down:

"The licensee" = person with license
"shall permit" = shall means YOU WILL, far different from may
"the Department" = them
"to inspect" = look at and evaluate
"any part" = ANY means everywhere and anywhere
"of the home in which family child care services are provided" = The entire home is included here
"or where children have access." = OR is key. It means the previous condition or the following condition both independently satisfy the requirement.

Basically the rules are that if you get a license you are required to allow them to inspect. The inspection is either one of two things:
-Any part of the home in which family child car is provided
OR
-Where children have access.

So if you sit there and demand a warrant, they will say "well since you are in violation of the terms of the license, we are pulling your license"

PackingHeatInSDCA
07-11-2012, 5:14 PM
"of the home in which family child care services are provided" = The entire home is included here

...

I don't see that as being true. It says *in which* family child care services are provided.

If an area is locked and no family home services are provided from that area, then clearly they can not inspect the area.

Meety Peety
07-11-2012, 5:42 PM
I don't think you're going to get a decisive answer here. Best bet would probably be to speak (Maybe even generically as to not mention guns at all - perhaps jewelry) with the agency that will actually be inspecting your property and ask them to define what actually constitutes "where children have access". I mean, if you had asked me prior to reading this thread, I would have said that a locked safe means no access, but it seems that may not be the case. Behind that same logic, I would have expected that a room with a locked door would therefor be "off limits" to children and thus would exempt you from inspection. Again, based on some of the responses here, it seems that may not be the case. Everyone has the potential to interpret the language differently, and because this is a contract that you and/or your wife entered with the specific agency, I would think that their interpretation of the rules is what is going to count. So what you need to do is find out what exactly constitutes an area being "off limits" and therefore exempt from inspection. In the mean time, why not just get a few lockable ammo cans or a cheapo stack on cabinet to hold the ammo? It does suck being forced to let them look in your safe, but in my opinion, it would suck a lot more to lose your wife's income while you battle it out with the county over what could have potentially been avoided just by reaching out to them. Perhaps they will let you put a small lockbox inside your safe to house the ammo under a separate lock/combination? I have a feeling what they are trying to get at (Poorly) is that one lock is easier to forget to lock than two are.

Ctwo
07-12-2012, 9:54 AM
If the pervs in child services contractually require me to grant access to my steel lined panty cabinet, which is in my private room where child care services are not provided, and where children do not have access, and they pull my license because of that, there's going to be a lawsuit and lots of publicity.

RickD427
07-12-2012, 10:45 AM
If the pervs in child services contractually require me to grant access to my steel lined panty cabinet, which is in my private room where child care services are not provided, and where children do not have access, and they pull my license because of that, there's going to be a lawsuit and lots of publicity.

Please be careful what you ask for.

I suspect the Dept of Children's Services would welcome publicity that they acted to shut down a care facility they believed presented a danger to children. They've been beaten up in the press for failing to do in many other cases. You can be quite certain that firearms contained in a safe are not a danger (and you can also be quite correct), but that's not the way it will play out in the media.

Good luck with the lawsuit. Please review Goverment Code section 818.4 providing an immunity for the use of discretion in the issuance, suspension, denial, and revocation of the permit. Lawsuits are not cheap.

taperxz
07-12-2012, 10:58 AM
If the pervs in child services contractually require me to grant access to my steel lined panty cabinet, which is in my private room where child care services are not provided, and where children do not have access, and they pull my license because of that, there's going to be a lawsuit and lots of publicity.

And you better be prepared to expand your business (that you won't have a license for) to pay for that lawsuit.

If you get a license issued by the state you must follow the rules of the license or you should not get involved in that activity.

Ctwo
07-12-2012, 11:29 AM
I agree with following the rules, and as stated they do not authorize them to inspect my panty cabinet in my private room where children do not have access.

Of course I would not be silly enough to call it a gun safe. But really, I would not have that at this sort of business anyway, just because of public opinion.

Frankly, the entire cause is already lost. We keep fighting these silly battles in court where the real focus should be on public opinion.

jimx
07-12-2012, 11:56 AM
Not quite, their verbage is what allows it, lets break it down:

"The licensee" = person with license
"shall permit" = shall means YOU WILL, far different from may
"the Department" = them
"to inspect" = look at and evaluate
"any part" = ANY means everywhere and anywhere
"of the home in which family child care services are provided" = The entire home is included here
"or where children have access." = OR is key. It means the previous condition or the following condition both independently satisfy the requirement.

Basically the rules are that if you get a license you are required to allow them to inspect. The inspection is either one of two things:
-Any part of the home in which family child car is provided
OR
-Where children have access.

So if you sit there and demand a warrant, they will say "well since you are in violation of the terms of the license, we are pulling your license"

Bingo

I don't see what is so hard to understand??? Yes you can stop them from searching and when you do they will yank the kids out of your home.

Ctwo
07-12-2012, 2:36 PM
I do not agree, it says any part where the service is provided, and another key to me that the rest of the property needs to be qualified is with the "or where children have access."

Why would they need that qualification if "any part of the home in which family child care services are provided" already covered the entire place? Why even have that bolded piece anyway if it literally meant the entire home?

To me it means, that even if child care services are not provided in the personal bedroom, yet the child still has access, then they qualified to inspect that area, but not if the children do not have access.

I'm sure they've never asked to crawl around up in the attic or crawl space, so just store your arms there...

Ctwo
07-12-2012, 2:37 PM
BTW, where is this said safe? Is it accessible by the children?

Ctwo
07-12-2012, 2:40 PM
Another angle, what if I also rent rooms in my home? Are my tenants subject to have their panty drawers searched by state child care services?

POLICESTATE
07-12-2012, 2:43 PM
Put a large blanket or tablecloth over your safe? A big poster?

My safe is in the closet behind coats, you don't know it's there unless you move the coats.

lincoln45
07-12-2012, 6:27 PM
that's funny!.....Lincoln45 and I had a similar idea with a bed sheet and a potted plant. :rolleyes:

Moving the safe is not going to happen since its a large Cannon (1ooolbs) its anchored to a bridge footing on the first level of my house. so whats next....remove every weapon and open the action to show them its empty? this whole thing is starting to piss me off.



the crazy thing is all the parents know its their....if they had a problem with the safe she would not need the license and and my four year old would have to stay home alone:(

DuknBucks
07-13-2012, 3:32 PM
BTW, where is this said safe? Is it accessible by the children?

its in an area where the kids frequent.....not easily moved or modified

DuknBucks
07-13-2012, 3:34 PM
the crazy thing is all the parents know its their....if they had a problem with the safe she would not need the license and and my four year old would have to stay home alone:(

yea and it doesn't keep them from shameless offers of removing it for me at basement prices :D

maybe if lil bill found a way in he could clean them for me LOL! :chris:

POLICESTATE
07-13-2012, 3:35 PM
Is there advance notice of inspection? If so then remove guns from safe, fill with junk food. Open safe when they arrive and say you are keeping the kids safe from salt, transfats and whatever. When they leave put the guns back in, eat the junk food.

Don't forget to share with the kids!

The junk food, not the guns!

SeanCasey
07-13-2012, 3:38 PM
I do not agree, it says any part where the service is provided, and another key to me that the rest of the property needs to be qualified is with the "or where children have access."

Why would they need that qualification if "any part of the home in which family child care services are provided" already covered the entire place? Why even have that bolded piece anyway if it literally meant the entire home?

To cover situations where a property has multiple structures. For instance a main house and a guest house and the guest house is where the child care services are provided (or the reverse). This prevents them from inspecting the entire property and limits it to just the area where the services are provided.

Basically it is the cover all angles where the property is more than just a regular 1 unit single family home. That "or" is a CYA basically and was a quick and simple way to be vauge but specific as well.

Say the guns were stored in a locked shed in the bank yard and the kids never have access to the shed. In that cause i would argue that the guns were off limit since it is not "any part of the home" and is also not "where child services are provided".

Faxon
07-13-2012, 6:57 PM
I would not want stinking "inspectors" in my house. I am glad I am not a babysitter.

Ctwo
07-13-2012, 8:21 PM
... "any part of the home" and is also not "where child services are provided".

I simply do not believe that the two are separable regardless of if the structures are singular or not.

lincoln45
07-14-2012, 11:21 AM
yea and it doesn't keep them from shameless offers of removing it for me at basement prices :D

maybe if lil bill found a way in he could clean them for me LOL! :chris:

better your guns than her baseboards:7: