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View Full Version : Is your 1911 the most accurate gun you have? You need more practice.


Lead Waster
07-09-2012, 4:52 PM
LOL, flame suit on and extinguisher in hand! Yes, I'm trolling you!

The 1911 is such a good platform with such a FORGIVING and nice trigger that it masks all sorts of shooter issues.

I hate to say it, but a highly tuned 1911 is made to take as much user error out of the shot as possible. Light trigger, smooth action, it doesn't let you mess up the shot as much.

So as a consequence, does that mean that if you shoot your 1911 head and shoulders above all other guns that you actually need more practice shooting because your 1911 is masking issues that your other guns don't?

I've pondered the equipment vs skill question since I considered if it was worth it to buy really nice golf clubs. On the one had, I suck so will better equipment help me, or is my skill so low that I am actually not playing to the potential of better equipment? Same for guns.

This is just a question for fun, I'm not suggesting you are all crappy shots as I'm pretty much in that catagory as well. I shoot certain guns and calibers better than others, and I'm guessing that's because the guns I shoot well with mask the particular quirk that causes me to suck with other guns.

I think a truly practiced/experienced/good shooter is so consistent that it shouldn't matter what hunk of metal you pressed in his hands. With the right fundamentals, in theory, every gun should be a tack driver.

Yay or nay?

guns4life
07-09-2012, 4:57 PM
Doesn't matter what gun, you should be able to put shots on target or you need a lot more range time.

Write Winger
07-09-2012, 4:58 PM
I agree to an extent. It's like shooting well double action or single action.

I'm a pretty decent shooter unless I'm shooting something with a grip that my pinky finger isn't also on. Being an all around shooter is what it's all about. Or maybe it's just knowing completely that gun you love.

It doesn't matter unless you're going on top shot lol

XYZ
07-09-2012, 4:59 PM
One mind. Any firearm. Or something like that.

SilverTauron
07-09-2012, 5:05 PM
That reason is exactly why I sold my RIA tactical. Sure it made me look good on the range ,but the reality of my skill level was that I didn't have proper trigger control or stance.Its the difference between looking like a good shot versus being a good shot.

I sold it because I didn't want to turn into one of those guys you see on Top Shot, who's a pistol champ with the $4000 tuned race gun yet can't hit the Boeing 747 Assembly Plant Building from the inside with a stock Glock/Sig/Beretta.

doug-y-doug
07-09-2012, 5:07 PM
I think you're basically right, although some guns have little nuances that the shooter needs to adapt to. For example, going from my 226 to my G19 requires me to hold the gun a little differently in order to achieve the same accuracy. For the Glock, I think it has to do with that heavy and uneven last portion of the trigger pull before the break. Other than kind of thing, I basically shoot all other guns the same in DA or SA.

BamBam-31
07-09-2012, 5:13 PM
A well-executed 1911 trigger, with it's straight back pull and proverbial glass rod break, is indeed a great aid in accurate shooting.

tbc
07-09-2012, 5:30 PM
Totally agree with you Lead Waster. I typically take the one that I suck most to the range to fix my bad habit.

I would like to own a 1911 or an X5 someday though.


Sent from my iPhone

RDT
07-09-2012, 5:32 PM
Agreed, if you can only shoot your 1911 well, then your shooting skills need some work.

redcliff
07-09-2012, 5:36 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

ddgears
07-09-2012, 5:43 PM
While I agree a gun like the 1911 is so easy to use it may mask some bad habits there are some guns that just aren't tack drivers. Personally I know I'm not that great at using double action pistols so I tend dislike DAO guns.

Jazeronthelaser
07-09-2012, 5:47 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

LMAO!! That's pretty funny.

DannyInSoCal
07-09-2012, 5:48 PM
Better equipment is more accurate.

I can shoot tighter groups with my 50GI slide installed on my G21 than I can with the stock .45ACP slide.

Tighter tolerances and slightly different recoil.

That said - My 6" match grade long slide 1911 is the most accurate sidearm I've ever owned....

dpop24
07-09-2012, 5:53 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

+1. With that logic I should only be shooting with my lousy POS AMT Backup .380 DAO! That would cause me to probably quit shooting!

John Browning
07-09-2012, 6:05 PM
Your post makes no sense.

1 - the 1911 is NOT a forgiving platform
2 - an accurate gun will NOT mask bad habits, because the bullet goes where you point it.
3 - A crap gun can mask bad habits, because they are less accurate.

If you can shoot a Glock 17 as well as a 1911, then your 1911 sucks, you suck, or both.

I learned to shoot with average guns. Eventually, it got to the point when I could shoot the guns well enough that they became a limiting factor in my performance. At that point, I stepped up to the more accurate tools. I shot as a Junior Olympian, and I can tell you that the world's best shooters don't train with Daisy Red Riders and 870 pumps. I never saw an Anchutz or Perazzi mask a bad habit.

ZX-10R
07-09-2012, 6:11 PM
All I know is I shoot my Colt 1911 better than all my handguns/ pistols except when I bench my Draco...

USMC 82-86
07-09-2012, 6:22 PM
Yes. I agree with this, provided the shooter owns, or wants to own more than just a 1911. If they are strictly a 1911 shooter, they are probably not concerned with how they shoot a Glock, Sig, M&P, HK or a XD, etc.

I have a 1911 that I only rarely shoot anymore. I love the gun, don't get me wrong. I just realized after shooting my other guns, as often as I do, picking up the 1911 and shooting, is like childs play. I shoot my other guns very well, and I enjoy shooting them as often as possible.

Your point, is well taken regarding some people who shoot the 1911. I had a gentleman ask to try my G19 and my Beretta 92FS. He was shooting his 1911, it was a Kimber very nice looking gun. He had a nice group going at 7 yards. He shot my G19 and my Beretta a magazine from each. My Beretta was giving him a group around 4" about twice the size of his group with the kimber. When he shot the G19 it was between 5"-6". Three different triggers and three different results. He is strictly a 1911 shooter, and proud of it, so his results were not horrible but it does show the difference that comes from shooting one type of gun.

sammy
07-09-2012, 6:25 PM
This is my philosophies when it comes to pistols. None of my pistols have light triggers. As a matter of fact the Les Baer TRS had a super nice 4lb factory trigger. I had it swapped out for a 5lb. duty setup. It makes it easier to transition to and from my Glocks and Sigs.

Doing it this way has worked very well. The Les Baer is the pistol I shoot best so I use that as my benchmark. At 15 yards I can now shoot my stock G26 with a 30% larger group than the Baer.

The G26 is what i train with most. If I can shoot that gun well I should be able to shoot anything better. The G26 is a difficult gun to shoot accurately.

I hope that made sense.

Sammy

ICONIC
07-09-2012, 6:27 PM
My 1911 is a tack driver no doubt. But my Beretta 92f is the most accurate in my opinion and the one I shoot the best. Followed by my Glock 20 with the lone wolf . 40 barrel.

bob7122
07-09-2012, 6:30 PM
Your post makes no sense.

1 - the 1911 is NOT a forgiving platform
2 - an accurate gun will NOT mask bad habits, because the bullet goes where you point it.
3 - A crap gun can mask bad habits, because they are less accurate.

If you can shoot a Glock 17 as well as a 1911, then your 1911 sucks, you suck, or both.

I learned to shoot with average guns. Eventually, it got to the point when I could shoot the guns well enough that they became a limiting factor in my performance. At that point, I stepped up to the more accurate tools. I shot as a Junior Olympian, and I can tell you that the world's best shooters don't train with Daisy Red Riders and 870 pumps. I never saw an Anchutz or Perazzi mask a bad habit.

lol

Cyc Wid It
07-09-2012, 7:23 PM
Tough to go from Gary Danko to McDonald's.

jakuda
07-09-2012, 7:46 PM
Tough to go from Gary Danko to McDonald's.

Lol. Only bay area foodies would easily follow this. Gary Dankos is kind of boring though. Only their service shines.

stormvet
07-09-2012, 7:49 PM
Or maybe we shoot our 1911s better then our other guns simply because its a better gun and because it is a better gun we shoot it more often. Lets face it after you have had the best why settle for less.

NorCal Einstein
07-09-2012, 7:51 PM
Tough to go from Gary Danko to McDonald's.

But it has to be done, otherwise we end up broke.

jakuda
07-09-2012, 7:56 PM
Your post makes no sense.

1 - the 1911 is NOT a forgiving platform
2 - an accurate gun will NOT mask bad habits, because the bullet goes where you point it.
3 - A crap gun can mask bad habits, because they are less accurate.

If you can shoot a Glock 17 as well as a 1911, then your 1911 sucks, you suck, or both.

I learned to shoot with average guns. Eventually, it got to the point when I could shoot the guns well enough that they became a limiting factor in my performance. At that point, I stepped up to the more accurate tools. I shot as a Junior Olympian, and I can tell you that the world's best shooters don't train with Daisy Red Riders and 870 pumps. I never saw an Anchutz or Perazzi mask a bad habit.

I agree with you in general.

Although I would say a pistol with a heavy and long, trigger is more difficult to shoot than a firearm with a single stage or two-stage 1000gram trigger. If a shooter jerks his shot, his shot will tend to be closer to the inner-10 ring with the lighter trigger, all other things being equal. So bad shooters who jerk their shots all the time well probably find 1911s "easier" to shoot than other semi-autos.

How much support did you get being a Junior Olympian? Free Eley ammo would be a great perk to train with.

Kappy
07-09-2012, 7:59 PM
I was just going to say that my 1911 is nowhere near as accurate as my CZ. So...

Beyond that... I don't really get the point of this thread except to say that you should shoot all your guns as often as possible.

Press Check
07-09-2012, 8:05 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

Amen, brother. :)

SilverTauron
07-09-2012, 8:12 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers?

You have missed the point of the OP's post like a newbie shooting at 100 yards with a Sigma.


Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

Good luck with your high-maintenance beauty queen 1911! Those vacations to the gunsmith for new parts really are the handgun equivalent of dating Kim Kardashian. While you're on hold waiting for the Wilson Combat parts department to pick up, ill be shooting my low maintenance & decidedly 'obsolete' DA/SA S&W 9mm.

Snoopy47
07-09-2012, 8:16 PM
GI 1911’s with no checkering, no beaver tail, and smooth grips are not easy guns to shoot.

However, 1911's with all the upgrades are:
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv124/motoman47/P1000244.jpg

Then again, if you just like shooting guns, "a lot", then just about anything will do:

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv124/motoman47/DSCN3200.jpg

XVIga_Rob
07-09-2012, 8:20 PM
NAY!

Cyc Wid It
07-09-2012, 8:22 PM
But it has to be done, otherwise we end up broke.

Priorities ;) Quality > quantity.

SilverTauron... you know basic 1911 maintenance can be done by yourself right? And that the 1911 is still seeing use overseas by various military groups in combat etc. etc. Green does not become you my friend.

Spdjunkie
07-09-2012, 8:27 PM
Wow, Another "masked" 1911 bash thread.

Happy Monday ! ;)

Fwiw:

I've seen shooters with several thousand dollar 1911(s) & Competition/Olympic style rimfire pistols group like they were shooting a 12 ga & 00 Buck @ 10 YARDS !, sometimes as bad as Bird Shot Groups

AND-

* I've seen shooters with a Stock Factory Block, I Mean Glock, shoot One Ragged Hole @ 25 yards.

$$$ Spent Does Not = Skill/Sense
Skill from Proper Education/Foundation/Fundamentals make $$$ Spent make Sense ;)
Bottom line: Its the Indian NOT the Arrow . . . . . But a TRUE, Precision Arrow w/ a Bad@$$ Bow in the right Indians hands = BULLSEYE [x]

Here is the Small Print: "To each their own" . . . All above IMHO :D

IPSICK
07-09-2012, 8:33 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

Are ugly girls needed for reliability and ease of use?

locosway
07-09-2012, 8:33 PM
LOL, flame suit on and extinguisher in hand! Yes, I'm trolling you!

The 1911 is such a good platform with such a FORGIVING and nice trigger that it masks all sorts of shooter issues.

I hate to say it, but a highly tuned 1911 is made to take as much user error out of the shot as possible. Light trigger, smooth action, it doesn't let you mess up the shot as much.

So as a consequence, does that mean that if you shoot your 1911 head and shoulders above all other guns that you actually need more practice shooting because your 1911 is masking issues that your other guns don't?

I've pondered the equipment vs skill question since I considered if it was worth it to buy really nice golf clubs. On the one had, I suck so will better equipment help me, or is my skill so low that I am actually not playing to the potential of better equipment? Same for guns.

This is just a question for fun, I'm not suggesting you are all crappy shots as I'm pretty much in that catagory as well. I shoot certain guns and calibers better than others, and I'm guessing that's because the guns I shoot well with mask the particular quirk that causes me to suck with other guns.

I think a truly practiced/experienced/good shooter is so consistent that it shouldn't matter what hunk of metal you pressed in his hands. With the right fundamentals, in theory, every gun should be a tack driver.

Yay or nay?

For a novice shooter you're correct. The 1911 will hide a lot of bad habits. For an accomplished shooter, the 1911 brings something else to the table, precision. I can be "accurate" with my Glocks, just as I can be accurate with my AR. But, I can not make those precision or surgical shots that the 1911 can do. Why? A lot has to do with the trigger, but there's the tolerances of the gun as well. My Glocks will go into any environment and always work, but they aren't not precise. My 1911's are precise.

Different tool for different jobs. Why use a sledge hammer to tune a piano?

Spdjunkie
07-09-2012, 8:39 PM
For a novice shooter you're correct. The 1911 will hide a lot of bad habits. For an accomplished shooter, the 1911 brings something else to the table, precision. I can be "accurate" with my Glocks, just as I can be accurate with my AR. But, I can not make those precision or surgical shots that the 1911 can do. Why? A lot has to do with the trigger, but there's the tolerances of the gun as well. My Glocks will go into any environment and always work, but they aren't not precise. My 1911's are precise.

Different tool for different jobs. Why use a sledge hammer to tune a piano?
^ Agree.

- ANY Precision Platform, Long Gun or Handgun, will actually show more errors if you do not do you part. If you do your part these platforms are Very rewarding to work with. If you DO NOT do your part, IT will show you how bad you are doing. . . . But again that applies to anything in regards to Marksmanship.

Bobby Hated
07-09-2012, 8:40 PM
i really dont see a difference in accuracy between different guns.

just some guns are easier to shoot accurately than others.

redcliff
07-09-2012, 8:56 PM
You have missed the point of the OP's post like a newbie shooting at 100 yards with a Sigma.



Good luck with your high-maintenance beauty queen 1911! Those vacations to the gunsmith for new parts really are the handgun equivalent of dating Kim Kardashian. While you're on hold waiting for the Wilson Combat parts department to pick up, ill be shooting my low maintenance & decidedly 'obsolete' DA/SA S&W 9mm.

I didn't miss the OP's point, I rejected it. The trigger pull on my 1911's doesn't mask anything. If I pull a shot its obvious to me. It just may not be obvious to a lot of people shooting a lot of other handguns based upon the groups I see them shoot.

I don't find 1911's hard to maintain at all. If you have problems with one feel free to send me a PM and I'll try to get you squared away. I do agree that some are beauty queens though.

locosway
07-09-2012, 9:00 PM
You have missed the point of the OP's post like a newbie shooting at 100 yards with a Sigma.



Good luck with your high-maintenance beauty queen 1911! Those vacations to the gunsmith for new parts really are the handgun equivalent of dating Kim Kardashian. While you're on hold waiting for the Wilson Combat parts department to pick up, ill be shooting my low maintenance & decidedly 'obsolete' DA/SA S&W 9mm.

I didn't like the trigger in my 1911, so I ordered a new one. Cost was $30 shipped, and it's a match trigger.

Didn't like the trigger on my Glock, so I polished and dropped in a new connector. Cost was $20 + polish.

Maintenance between the two guns is the same. They get cleaned every 500-1000 rounds, and wiped down after each range trip.

I must be missing something here...

GREASY357
07-09-2012, 9:11 PM
i can agree with this. sometimes when im out shooting with friends and have a bad day i can pick up their kimber and it's like i dont even have to try.

John Browning
07-09-2012, 9:26 PM
I agree with you in general.

Although I would say a pistol with a heavy and long, trigger is more difficult to shoot than a firearm with a single stage or two-stage 1000gram trigger. If a shooter jerks his shot, his shot will tend to be closer to the inner-10 ring with the lighter trigger, all other things being equal. So bad shooters who jerk their shots all the time well probably find 1911s "easier" to shoot than other semi-autos.

How much support did you get being a Junior Olympian? Free Eley ammo would be a great perk to train with.

With a pistol and at such short distances, anything relating to a mechanical difference will account for maybe 1/2 inch at 25 yards. Everything else is related to the shooter. If a shooter jerks his shot with a Wilson Super Grade or a Hi Point, they'll end up in the same general area. Technical issues will look the same on paper no matter what you're shooting.

You will do nothing to improve a poor to average shooter by giving them amazing gear, and you'll hurt a really great shooter by giving them something that puts bullets all over the place. To prove the point, take someone who is having issues with an average gun and put a true custom match grade weapon in their hands. Their "groups" will look identical. On the opposite, average guns make truly great shooters worse. Their is nothing more frustrating than knowing the bullet didn't go where you were 100% certain your sights were when the shot broke. It screws with your whole practice session when you are dealing with that.

We actually got a ton of support. You have to buy most of your own ammo and gear to get started, but the coaching, targets and range time were free. There were also very, very, very nice and expensive guns available to you to borrow and free ammo at times. However, it was access to people who can point out the smallest of things that can make a big difference that was the best freebie.

Carlosa
07-09-2012, 9:27 PM
Guess what you guys...
If you put the same time an effort to learn the trigger of a 1911, into any other trigger you will do just as well with that trigger..
The problem is people think that just because they learned the trigger on one gun, that they can pull the trigger on a different platform the same way and be successful.

The weight of the trigger is only an issue when the shooter has an anticipation problem..
If the trigger is a little heavier than usual the shooter's timing will be off. Turning a post ignition push (recoil control) into a pre ignition push (flinch).

It's been a funny experience to see people shoot my competition gun (sub 2lb trigger) get really exited after hitting the first couple of times just to start missing due to dog slapping and jerking a trigger that based on the context of this thread should be the magical cure to lack of practice..

To me it is this simple.. It doesn't matter where you master the fundamentals.. If you do master them you can switch to other platforms with some small but necessary adjustment time.

Cheers.
Los

Press Check
07-09-2012, 9:28 PM
Good luck with your high-maintenance beauty queen 1911! Those vacations to the gunsmith for new parts really are the handgun equivalent of dating Kim Kardashian. While you're on hold waiting for the Wilson Combat parts department to pick up, ill be shooting my low maintenance & decidedly 'obsolete' DA/SA S&W 9mm.

That's just far beyond absurd.

Carlosa
07-09-2012, 9:33 PM
For a novice shooter you're correct. The 1911 will hide a lot of bad habits. For an accomplished shooter, the 1911 brings something else to the table, precision. I can be "accurate" with my Glocks, just as I can be accurate with my AR. But, I can not make those precision or surgical shots that the 1911 can do. Why? A lot has to do with the trigger, but there's the tolerances of the gun as well. My Glocks will go into any environment and always work, but they aren't not precise. My 1911's are precise.

Different tool for different jobs. Why use a sledge hammer to tune a piano?

This is a huge miss conception..
With modern firearms accuracy is more about the quality of ammunition your shooting.
Along with what the barrel likes..
Inside of 25 yards most modern handguns will perform inside of 2 inches with good ammo..

locosway
07-09-2012, 9:35 PM
This is a huge miss conception..
With modern firearms accuracy is more about the quality of ammunition your shooting.
Along with what the barrel likes..
Inside of 25 yards most modern handguns will perform inside of 2 inches with good ammo..

Yes, I must not know what I'm talking about. Match grade ammo out of a Sigma will shoot the same sized group as a Les Baer at 25 yards.

Carlosa
07-09-2012, 9:36 PM
With a pistol and at such short distances, anything relating to a mechanical difference will account for maybe 1/2 inch at 25 yards. Everything else is related to the shooter. If a shooter jerks his shot with a Wilson Super Grade or a Hi Point, they'll end up in the same general area. Technical issues will look the same on paper no matter what you're shooting.

You will do nothing to improve a poor to average shooter by giving them amazing gear, and you'll hurt a really great shooter by giving them something that puts bullets all over the place. To prove the point, take someone who is having issues with an average gun and put a true custom match grade weapon in their hands. Their "groups" will look identical. On the opposite, average guns make truly great shooters worse. Their is nothing more frustrating than knowing the bullet didn't go where you were 100% certain your sights were when the shot broke. It screws with your whole practice session when you are dealing with that.

We actually got a ton of support. You have to buy most of your own ammo and gear to get started, but the coaching, targets and range time were free. There were also very, very, very nice and expensive guns available to you to borrow and free ammo at times. However, it was access to people who can point out the smallest of things that can make a big difference that was the best freebie.

You're the man nice to see someone with some sense here :)

GW
07-09-2012, 9:46 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

This
If you're good with your 1911, then what else matters?
Are you afraid of someone switching guns out in your nightstand?
I was dreadful with my XD so I got rid of it. I like Glocks but I am much better with my 1911's so those are what I will shoot. I am not James Bond nor do I pretend to be so I don't desire blistering accuracy with any gun I pick up. I mean it would be nice but I'm not willing to invest the time, ammo or money to do it.
I am familiar with most hand gun systems and very familiar with the 1911. That's good enough for me.

ETA my Python is the most accurate handgun I own. I still prefer my 1911's

Carlosa
07-09-2012, 9:48 PM
Yes, I must not know what I'm talking about. Match grade ammo out of a Sigma will shoot the same sized group as a Les Baer at 25 yards.

You'd be surprised..
Talking about glocks and 1911's, my glock 17 shoots inside of an inch at 15 yards..
It might not be "surgical" but it's about as much as you need :)
My custom sti race gun shoots tighter but that's plenty good to hit the a/c zone from as far as 50 yards :)

P.s
Les bear is way over rated ;)

locosway
07-09-2012, 9:48 PM
This
If you're good with your 1911, then what else matters?
Are you afraid of someone switching guns out in your nightstand?
I was dreadful with my XD so I got rid of it. I like Glocks but I am much better with my 1911's so those are what I will shoot. I am not James Bond nor do I pretend to be so I don't desire blistering accuracy with any gun I pick up. I mean it would be nice but I'm not willing to invest the time, ammo or money to do it.
I am familiar with most hand gun systems and very familiar with the 1911. That's good enough for me.

ETA my Python is the most accurate handgun I own. I still prefer my 1911's

I'm the opposite. I've trained so much with my Glock that I find it hard to trust another gun. Not that I can't shoot another gun well, but if I'm just waking up to a dark house and I need to get on target fast, I'll do much better with a Glock.

RippSpeed
07-09-2012, 9:58 PM
Lol, tell that to Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret and Taran Butler ... They all shoot their 1911 well

RippSpeed
07-09-2012, 10:05 PM
Good luck with your high-maintenance beauty queen 1911! Those vacations to the gunsmith for new parts really are the handgun equivalent of dating Kim Kardashian. While you're on hold waiting for the Wilson Combat parts department to pick up, ill be shooting my low maintenance & decidedly 'obsolete' DA/SA S&W 9mm.

Good for you ... But last I checked I've shot 25000+ rds last year in USPSA and trips to the range. And my STI hasn't been to the gunsmith since she I had her done up, earlier in the year.

And so far I'm up to 9000rds this year... How's that for reliability???

too bad my skill level isn't as accurate as my pistol...

John Browning
07-09-2012, 10:09 PM
That's just far beyond absurd.

No it isn't. My Nighthawk is a real pain. I have to change the recoil spring every 2,000 rounds. Do you know how hard it is to find and install a recoil spring for a 1911? With the limited number of 1911 aftermarket parts, small number of gunsmiths who work on them, difficulty and counter-intuitive nature of the 1911, and the general obscurity of the platform, most 1911s probably spend more time in the shop than at the range.

It is an unproven, unreliable, and generally ignored design that is the Chauchat of handguns. I can't think of a single example in history to show the durability, reliability, ease of maintenance and longevity of the 1911. It sucks.

You can't maintain a 1911 unless you're a gunsmith working in a surgical room.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/0212HSBack.jpg



You should never rely only on the 1911 for anything other than range duty, it just doesn't work in the field.
http://actionflickchick.com/superaction/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/tunnelratsvienam1vivv1.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/0/I/O/viet51.jpg
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/gallery/116/2018lae-essay.jpg

Besides, it is an old design. Nobody uses it anymore. They only break it out for guys who can't shoot and need something to mask their generally crappy shooting skills.
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album82/acb.jpg

Ironically, the 1911 was ditched in favor of a platform that was deemed more easily usable by women and those less familiar with handguns...the SA/DA Beretta 92.

locosway
07-09-2012, 10:15 PM
No it isn't. My Nighthawk is a real pain. I have to change the recoil spring every 2,000 rounds.

As a Glock armorer, you should change your Glock RSA every 3k rounds.

I haven't changed mine yet, but this is what Glock recommends.

EDIT:

My grandpa told me stories of having to clear tunnels on Okinawa... Pistol in one hand, light in the other. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

http://actionflickchick.com/superaction/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/tunnelratsvienam1vivv1.jpg

Press Check
07-09-2012, 10:22 PM
No it isn't. My Nighthawk is a real pain. I have to change the recoil spring every 2,000 rounds. Do you know how hard it is to find and install a recoil spring for a 1911? With the limited number of 1911 aftermarket parts, small number of gunsmiths who work on them, difficulty and counter-intuitive nature of the 1911, and the general obscurity of the platform, most 1911s probably spend more time in the shop than at the range.

It is an unproven, unreliable, and generally ignored design that is the Chauchat of handguns. I can't think of a single example in history to show the durability, reliability, ease of maintenance and longevity of the 1911. It sucks.

You can't maintain a 1911 unless you're a gunsmith working in a surgical room.

You should never rely only on the 1911 for anything other than range duty, it just doesn't work in the field

Besides, it is an old design. Nobody uses it anymore. They only break it out for guys who can't shoot and need something to mask their generally crappy shooting skills.

Ironically, the 1911 was ditched in favor of a platform that was deemed more easily usable by women and those less familiar with handguns...the SA/DA Beretta 92.

I stand corrected, LOL.

Anyone want to trade their Glock or XD for my 1911?

John Browning
07-09-2012, 10:25 PM
As a Glock armorer, you should change your Glock RSA every 3k rounds.

I haven't changed mine yet, but this is what Glock recommends.

EDIT:

My grandpa told me stories of having to clear tunnels on Okinawa... Pistol in one hand, light in the other. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

http://actionflickchick.com/superaction/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/tunnelratsvienam1vivv1.jpg

I have a Glock 34 that is about 10,000 rounds behind schedule. Still works fine, but perhaps I'm beating it up. However, it is a Glock, so who cares. :)

My hat goes off to the tunnel rats, they were truly giants amongst giants. Talk about balls of depleted uranium. Lucky for you to have him be able to tell you stories. My grandpa was a Seabee in WWII. Six battles, sunk on a transport and spent 6 days marooned on an island. He never talked about it and we found out after he passed away and saw a news story that my Grandma had saved that briefly mentioned his service and return home to Mt. Shasta.

John Browning
07-09-2012, 10:29 PM
I stand corrected, LOL.

Anyone want to trade their Glock or XD for my 1911?

That is a bit rich, sir. How about a Taurus for your 1911? You'll get to be a much better shot, or at least a lot better at clearing malfunctions and calling customer service.

locosway
07-09-2012, 10:30 PM
I have a Glock 34 that is about 10,000 rounds behind schedule. Still works fine, but perhaps I'm beating it up. However, it is a Glock, so who cares. :)

My hat goes off to the tunnel rats, they were truly giants amongst giants. Talk about balls of depleted uranium. Lucky for you to have him be able to tell you stories. My grandpa was a Seabee in WWII. Six battles, sunk on a transport and spent 6 days marooned on an island. He never talked about it and we found out after he passed away and saw a news story that my Grandma had saved that briefly mentioned his service and return home to Mt. Shasta.

Mine is still alive (86). He gave me his 1911 he carried in WWII as the captains orderly. He also told me stories about being a 20mm gunner and having to shoot down "japs". Landing on Okinawa and being surprised there was nothing fortified on the beaches or people shooting at them, and so on.

To this day if you wake him up, he's ready to punch you in the face. One tough SOB that Marine is. But, he wanted to watch the HBO series on WWII, I forget what it's called now. They had one episode on Okinawa. During the show I looked over and he had a cloth covering his nose. I asked him what was wrong and he said, "I can smell the bodies. It's everywhere. People get blown up all around you and everything smells like dead flesh". This was also one of the only times I had seen him cry in his entire life.

Crazy life he's had...

ParanoidCivilian
07-09-2012, 10:31 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

Then why own a firearm with "lousy ergonomics and poor triggers"?

MainGun120mm
07-09-2012, 11:02 PM
Once you factor in the ammo price vs the cost of your pistol you can see that you spend FAR more on ammo(.45 ACP) depending how long you keep it.

I wouldnt take 100+ octane race fuel and put it in a winnebago. Id much rather have the fuel sitting inside a Bugatti Veyron going 250+ mph.

locosway
07-09-2012, 11:04 PM
Once you factor in the ammo price vs the cost of your pistol you can see that you spend FAR more on ammo(.45 ACP) depending how long you keep it.

I wouldnt take 100+ octane race fuel and put it in a winnebago. Id much rather have the fuel sitting inside a Bugatti Veyron going 250+ mph.

My car requires 91+ octane. Some people see it as a waste. I see it as $2.00 more a week. Not enough to worry about.

SilverTauron
07-09-2012, 11:19 PM
The Walther P-38 has been used in a lot of wars too, and its a DA/SA firearm. Should I thus assume its a superior firearm to everything made today?

Since the AK-47 and its variants have become the most commonly used gun in warfare should we all throw away our AR-15s and FALs?

Id like to hear why the 1911 is considered so awesome, when its capable of failing in such a manner that certain models of the gun can go full auto without prior warning when chambered. If Glock or Ruger made a modern gun with that kind of defect they'd be out of business.

osxgp
07-09-2012, 11:20 PM
Your post makes no sense.

1 - the 1911 is NOT a forgiving platform
2 - an accurate gun will NOT mask bad habits, because the bullet goes where you point it.
3 - A crap gun can mask bad habits, because they are less accurate.

If you can shoot a Glock 17 as well as a 1911, then your 1911 sucks, you suck, or both.

I learned to shoot with average guns. Eventually, it got to the point when I could shoot the guns well enough that they became a limiting factor in my performance. At that point, I stepped up to the more accurate tools. I shot as a Junior Olympian, and I can tell you that the world's best shooters don't train with Daisy Red Riders and 870 pumps. I never saw an Anchutz or Perazzi mask a bad habit.

Agreed

johnthomas
07-09-2012, 11:24 PM
My 1911 sucks. I have a colt combat commander. The nickle finish is terrible and the sights don't do me any good. I called Colt, they said 350 to refinish it and then the sky is the limit for the sights.

glockwise2000
07-09-2012, 11:26 PM
For 1 second I thought a couple of my 1911s were my most accurate, until I got a CZ.

John Browning
07-09-2012, 11:43 PM
The Walther P-38 has been used in a lot of wars too, and its a DA/SA firearm. Should I thus assume its a superior firearm to everything made today?

Since the AK-47 and its variants have become the most commonly used gun in warfare should we all throw away our AR-15s and FALs?

Id like to hear why the 1911 is considered so awesome, when its capable of failing in such a manner that certain models of the gun can go full auto without prior warning when chambered. If Glock or Ruger made a modern gun with that kind of defect they'd be out of business.

I think you're trying to make a point and an argument here, but you fail so badly at the attempt that I'm not sure.

You alluded earlier that the 1911 is basically just a race car that can look good on the track but can't haul the mail, tow the boat or take the kids camping. That is pretty obviously wrong. See history of the combat handgun for relevant information. I can't respond to the rest of your statement here other than to say it contains no discernible argument or main idea.

The 1911 is awesome because it was invented by the greatest gun designer in history, it has proven itself in actual combat in conditions from the trenches of Bellau Wood to the black sands of Iwo Jima to the snow of the Chosin, the steam of Vietnam and the sands of the Middle East. It has done so for a century. There are a myriad (that means lots) of parts and highly qualified people who support the platform, and as a result it is as refined a pistol as exists today. You can't really work on a Glock, XD, Ruger, etc like you can an all-steel pistol.

The only drawback you seem to be able to verbalize isn't particular to the 1911. ANY semi-automatic gun can go full auto. A stuck firing pin, a busted sear, a broken trigger, etc. happen, and they don't just happen to the 1911. If that defect would drive a company out of business, how do you account for the dozens of companies that STILL make 1911s to this day, smart guy? Obviously it hasn't driven them out of business.

locosway
07-09-2012, 11:51 PM
Id like to hear why the 1911 is considered so awesome...

Because

http://i44.tinypic.com/15ow9dd.jpg

SilverTauron
07-10-2012, 12:01 AM
I think you're trying to make a point and an argument here, but you fail so badly at the attempt that I'm not sure.

So as to discourage any more lame insults couched in neutral language, ill state my point plainly-the 1911 is not as great as its hyped up to be. Its just another mechanical firearm in a world filled with them. Its trigger is light enough to prevent new shooters from learning proper shooting form.


You alluded earlier that the 1911 is basically just a race car that can look good on the track but can't haul the mail, tow the boat or take the kids camping. That is pretty obviously wrong. See history of the combat handgun for relevant information. I can't respond to the rest of your statement here other than to say it contains no discernible argument or main idea.



The 1911 is 100 years old. That is not to say it doesn't work or that it is an ineffective plaform, but it has its flaws. Posting sephia colored pictures of veterans shooting old pistols doesn't change that fact.Most of us aren't crawling through tunnels or clearing buildings with our guns. It is a true phenomenon that people drop $1000 on a 1911 and think that because of its trigger they're better shots on the static range. The reality is that the 4lb trigger of a 1911 can break before someone's poor form or trigger control ruins the shot as it would on a double action pistol. Thus, the OP's observation of inexperienced shooters saying their 1911 is the most accurate gun they own.



The 1911 is awesome because it was invented by the greatest gun designer in history, it has proven itself in actual combat in conditions from the trenches of Bellau Wood to the black sands of Iwo Jima to the snow of the Chosin, the steam of Vietnam and the sands of the Middle East. It has done so for a century. There are a myriad (that means lots) of parts and highly qualified people who support the platform, and as a result it is as refined a pistol as exists today. You can't really work on a Glock, XD, Ruger, etc like you can an all-steel pistol.

No disrespect to the late great John M. Browning, but there are literally thousands of great gun designers who toil in obscurity and nevertheless have made quality firearms. Glock's pistol series has a great combat record both on the battlefield and in police and citizen's holsters. Its also supported by a lot of highly qualified people, there are myrad parts available for it, and its in a continual state of refinement.The material of the frame is irrelevant as far as proper technique goes.

Bottom line, I consider the 1911's trigger to be a liability for new shooters just beginning to learn proper technique.Rob Leatham -and most pros-didn't cut their teeth as beginner shooters on the 1911 platform. The weapon TGO started with? A S&W Double Action revolver.


The only drawback you seem to be able to verbalize isn't particular to the 1911. ANY semi-automatic gun can go full auto. A stuck firing pin, a busted sear, a broken trigger, etc. happen, and they don't just happen to the 1911. If that defect would drive a company out of business, how do you account for the dozens of companies that STILL make 1911s to this day, smart guy? Obviously it hasn't driven them out of business.


Any?

I would like to see accounts of a factory spec Glock semi auto pistol going full auto due to internal parts failure from ordinary wear and tear. I am not someone whose mind is closed to opposing viewpoints, but in my defense there are many accounts of 1911 handguns which suffer hammer follow from casual shooting. Depending on the model and what kind of firing pin safety it is or isn't equipped with, this can result in the hapless owner loading a mag & sending the slide forward to be greeted by an unplanned bang. If they're lucky, the gun starts doubling at the range and the piece can be fixed before it slam fires the magazine. Sometimes there's no warning at all.

Fishslayer
07-10-2012, 12:04 AM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers?

I don't own any glops... :D

FWIW my most accurate handgun has this thing that holds the bullets & goes around & 'round... :D

ClarenceBoddicker
07-10-2012, 12:35 AM
The OP's post is a bit confusing to me. Yes, I need a lot of practice if I want to be the best pistol shooter I can. That's not really a goal of mine, because I don't think of a pistol as a main weapon. A main weapon is a long gun. A handgun is mostly just a back up. A pistol is only for emergencies or unusual circumstances like concealed carry or HD. I'm a decent shot & can hit what I'm aiming at within a reasonable range. To me rapid fire with hits in the black is what is important when shooting a pistol.

That said, my AMT .45 is the most accurate pistol I own. That's probably due to the great trigger it has. It's adjustable, not sure if it's stock. I haven't messed with it. It breaks very crisp & clean with a light pull. I have no idea how many lbs. All my pistols have different triggers except for my Glocks. Unless all your pistols have the same: caliber, barrel length, triggers type & pull weigh it's a moot point IMO.

I've kinda grown out of my .45 & part of me wants to sell it. I don't believe in .45 "stopping power" anymore, stainless is too heavy & bright, 7 or 8 round capacity sucks, original parts would probably be impossible to find, I don't like how the safety sticks out so far & can't stand the grip safety. On the other hand it's my only "big bore" full size pistol, it has that classic JMB look & it's still fun to shoot.

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 1:11 AM
I'm the opposite. I've trained so much with my Glock that I find it hard to trust another gun. Not that I can't shoot another gun well, but if I'm just waking up to a dark house and I need to get on target fast, I'll do much better with a Glock.

The glock is a great plataform, I love my 1911..
But if I was to ccw I probably go with a bone stock glock.
With some descent practice the glock can hang with the 1911 in just about every practical way. Even in balls to the wall racing competition :)

locosway
07-10-2012, 1:29 AM
The glock is a great plataform, I love my 1911..
But if I was to ccw I probably go with a bone stock glock.
With some descent practice the glock can hang with the 1911 in just about every practical way. Even in balls to the wall racing competition :)

This is my main SD/HD gun. Goes with me everywhere, and it's what I use when teaching or when I take a class.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391397_3488628941977_981502614_n.jpg

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 1:43 AM
The reality is that the 4lb trigger of a 1911 can break before someone's poor form or trigger control ruins the shot as it would on a double action pistol.

My guess would be that most out of the box triggers on 1911's are closer to 5lbs (about the same weight as a stock glock trigger)..
But even if that wasn't the case, triggers on firearms such as the glock mmp xd can be tweaked or replaced by the owners them selfs to be 3lbs or less, and it's much more economical..
So those plataformd should be just as good for newbies with poor trigger control no??
I think most people make the erroneous assumption that trigger control is all about how one pulls the trigger..
But pulling the trigger is the easiest thing to do on any firearm.. Do you know any one who can't operate the trigger on an "unloaded" firearm without disturbing the sights?? Truth is anyone can do that with very litle effort..
The real obstacle with learning to shoot any firearm accurately is to over come anticipation ( Or flinch) due to the disconfort of recoil and noise produced by the firearm.
But pulling the gun off target, and closing your eyes right before the shot breakes due to the anticipated disconfort of firing a weapon your not familiar

with has nothing to do with the weight trigger, it is 100% mental..
accuracy believe it or not is not tied to any particular form of trigger control.. Shooting is this simple... Press the trigger with out disturbing the sights.. Works every time...
Some pull soft, some pull hard, some use trigger reset.. But non of those things matter... Just pull the trigger with out disturbing the sights.. Easy pizzy :)
(you ever shoot your gun upside down and use your pinky to pull the trigger?)

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 1:45 AM
This is my main SD/HD gun. Goes with me everywhere, and it's what I use when teaching or when I take a class.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391397_3488628941977_981502614_n.jpg

That the same one I have :)
Glock 17 rtg
You should come out to Norco and shoot a uspsa match..
That gun is perfect in the production division :)

locosway
07-10-2012, 2:08 AM
That the same one I have :)
Glock 17 rtg
You should come out to Norco and shoot a uspsa match..
That gun is perfect in the production division :)

I just put the name together. You've shot with Aaron out there, right?

He teaches with me...

jakuda
07-10-2012, 7:15 AM
.....
I think most people make the erroneous assumption that trigger control is all about how one pulls the trigger..
But pulling the trigger is the easiest thing to do on any firearm.. Do you know any one who can't operate the trigger on an "unloaded" firearm without disturbing the sights?? Truth is anyone can do that with very litle effort..
The real obstacle with learning to shoot any firearm accurately is to over come anticipation ( Or flinch) due to the disconfort of recoil and noise produced by the firearm.
But pulling the gun off target, and closing your eyes right before the shot breakes due to the anticipated disconfort of firing a weapon your not familiar ..........

erm...I disagree. Aside from flinching most bad shots come from "snatching" perfect looking shots because most shooters don't shoot through their wobble or trust their wobble. This invariably leads to jerked shots.

However... my standard of precision shooting is much higher than most posters on this forum. What may be not be moving the front sight for you, is a lot of of movement for me. Trigger pull is the most important (or second most important reason) leading to precise shots. Ask any experienced shooter who shoots bullseye or International free pistol. There is a reason why remote control triggers or release triggers (you don't pull the trigger towards you, the trigger springs away from you and you release it) were banned in free pistol.

Pulling a trigger so that it puts the bullet where you want to is simple, but not easy. There is a fine distinction.

I do agree however that much of the trigger pull action is mental.

teflondog
07-10-2012, 9:12 AM
Mechanical accuracy has nothing to do with a person's skill. From a ransom rest, my 1911s are some of the most accurate guns that I own (1.5" @ 50 yards). Even then, there are some factors involved such as which ammo you're shooting and whether the barrel is clean. From a human perspective, accuracy is subjective and will depend on many personal factors. But the factors have less of an effect at closer distances. If you can't shoot one ragged hole at 7 yards with every handgun, then you need to practice more IMO.

With that being said, my most accurate gun is a S&W Model 41.

John Browning
07-10-2012, 9:23 AM
Any?

I would like to see accounts of a factory spec Glock semi auto pistol going full auto due to internal parts failure from ordinary wear and tear. I am not someone whose mind is closed to opposing viewpoints, but in my defense there are many accounts of 1911 handguns which suffer hammer follow from casual shooting. Depending on the model and what kind of firing pin safety it is or isn't equipped with, this can result in the hapless owner loading a mag & sending the slide forward to be greeted by an unplanned bang. If they're lucky, the gun starts doubling at the range and the piece can be fixed before it slam fires the magazine. Sometimes there's no warning at all.

You stated that if Ruger and Glock made guns like the 1911, they'd have gone out of business years ago. So once again, smart guy, how is it that the dozens of 1911 companies, making this dangerous and faulty platform are still in business? Hell, Ruger makes a 1911. You've made some pretty absurd statements in this thread, and haven't really intelligently defended any of them.

Yes, any semi-automatic firearm can go full auto. It is equally as unlikely in the 1911 as any other platform. I'd like to see a verifiable account of a factory spec 1911 develop hammer follow from casual shooting. Hammer follow is NOT a common problem and will become an issue if the gun has been worked on by a garage gunsmith or some idiot keeps dropping the slide thousands upon thousands of times on an empty chamber with no magazine. If the 1911 had some design flaw, then the 80 years of experience in the military would have made them blatantly obvious. There are 1911s out there with literally millions of rounds through them, having passed through the hands of experts and idiots alike, and that still work as designed.

Spouting this kind of nonsense about hammer follow being a major issue is as helpful as those who think Glocks are hand grenades that sometimes shoot bullets. Glocks seem to kaboom more often than other handguns, but I think there are many valid reasons it only seems that way. You're taking internet perception and broadcasting it as reality. In reality, the 1911 has been going strong for a century, and if there were major design issues, that wouldn't happen.

Most shooters don't cut their teeth with a nice 1911, but most drivers don't cut their teeth with a Porsche 911 or get busy for the first time with a Playboy playmate. Just because it isn't common, doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice. It also doesn't mean that if you start out driving a 911 or spending the evening with Katy Perry that you'll be bad at such activities. It might spoil you and be beyond your capabilities, but you'd catch up fast. The most important things I learned about shooting a handgun were taught to me while learning to shoot a pellet gun. It isn't the platform that makes the difference, and for new shooters it is really the cartridge if you want to get down to it. If you teach someone to shoot with a .22 rifle and a .410 single shot shotgun, they'll grow quickly into a good shot. There are few people who are inexperienced and well served picking up a .45 and learning to shoot.

It would be fair to say that the guys who shoot up as much ammo as the entire 82nd Airborne in a year would be experts on the subject. Delta Force/Combat Applications Group all still use and carry...a 1911. Guess they just aren't as up to speed as you on the subject. If the 1911 weren't the worlds best pistol platform, then bottom line, the worlds best shooters in the military and competition wouldn't use it. Since you're so open minded, don't listen to me, just look at what the best shooters on the planet all use.

jonzer77
07-10-2012, 10:14 AM
So as to discourage any more lame insults couched in neutral language, ill state my point plainly-the 1911 is not as great as its hyped up to be. Its just another mechanical firearm in a world filled with them. Its trigger is light enough to prevent new shooters from learning proper shooting form.




The 1911 is 100 years old. That is not to say it doesn't work or that it is an ineffective plaform, but it has its flaws. Posting sephia colored pictures of veterans shooting old pistols doesn't change that fact.Most of us aren't crawling through tunnels or clearing buildings with our guns. It is a true phenomenon that people drop $1000 on a 1911 and think that because of its trigger they're better shots on the static range. The reality is that the 4lb trigger of a 1911 can break before someone's poor form or trigger control ruins the shot as it would on a double action pistol. Thus, the OP's observation of inexperienced shooters saying their 1911 is the most accurate gun they own.




No disrespect to the late great John M. Browning, but there are literally thousands of great gun designers who toil in obscurity and nevertheless have made quality firearms. Glock's pistol series has a great combat record both on the battlefield and in police and citizen's holsters. Its also supported by a lot of highly qualified people, there are myrad parts available for it, and its in a continual state of refinement.The material of the frame is irrelevant as far as proper technique goes.

Bottom line, I consider the 1911's trigger to be a liability for new shooters just beginning to learn proper technique.Rob Leatham -and most pros-didn't cut their teeth as beginner shooters on the 1911 platform. The weapon TGO started with? A S&W Double Action revolver.




Any?

I would like to see accounts of a factory spec Glock semi auto pistol going full auto due to internal parts failure from ordinary wear and tear. I am not someone whose mind is closed to opposing viewpoints, but in my defense there are many accounts of 1911 handguns which suffer hammer follow from casual shooting. Depending on the model and what kind of firing pin safety it is or isn't equipped with, this can result in the hapless owner loading a mag & sending the slide forward to be greeted by an unplanned bang. If they're lucky, the gun starts doubling at the range and the piece can be fixed before it slam fires the magazine. Sometimes there's no warning at all.

When Bubba decides he wants to give his 1911 a trigger job, this is usually how they end up going full auto.

I think its hilarious that you bash the very model gun that you have as your avatar.

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 10:22 AM
erm...I disagree. Aside from flinching most bad shots come from "snatching" perfect looking shots because most shooters don't shoot through their wobble or trust their wobble. This invariably leads to jerked shots.

However... my standard of precision shooting is much higher than most posters on this forum. What may be not be moving the front sight for you, is a lot of of movement for me. Trigger pull is the most important (or second most important reason) leading to precise shots. Ask any experienced shooter who shoots bullseye or International free pistol. There is a reason why remote control triggers or release triggers (you don't pull the trigger towards you, the trigger springs away from you and you release it) were banned in free pistol.

Pulling a trigger so that it puts the bullet where you want to is simple, but not easy. There is a fine distinction.

I do agree however that much of the trigger pull action is mental.


Snatching, jerking, flinching I think we're both saying the same thing here :)
most people who have anticipation problems will pull a shot even if they're shooting from a rest. Which effectively eliminates wobble (or at least it's meant to)
Shooting from wobble zone effectively is just a matter of learning to call your shots, I consider this to be a an advanced skill. Most shooters never learn this, but I don't feel this is connected the the weight of the trigger pull..

But you are right trigger pull is the most important part of shooting accurately.
And the most difficult to master..
My point was that if you put enought time to learn how to shoot inside of 2" at 50 yards with the best bianchi gun..
You will have reached a level where you will be able to shoot any firearm close to its mechanical potential regardless of trigger pull weight..

Specially in a bull eye scenario where you have unlimited time to get a surprised brake..

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 10:25 AM
Mechanical accuracy has nothing to do with a person's skill. From a ransom rest, my 1911s are some of the most accurate guns that I own (1.5" @ 50 yards). Even then, there are some factors involved such as which ammo you're shooting and whether the barrel is clean. From a human perspective, accuracy is subjective and will depend on many personal factors. But the factors have less of an effect at closer distances. If you can't shoot one ragged hole at 7 yards with every handgun, then you need to practice more IMO.

With that being said, my most accurate gun is a S&W Model 41.

Exactly!!
You know what your talking about amigo :)
Cheers!

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 10:32 AM
I just put the name together. You've shot with Aaron out there, right?

He teaches with me...

Yup :)

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 10:46 AM
This is an interesting argument to me because I am verifiable crap with modern SA firearms. 1911, Glock, my Taurus PT745, even a revolver in SA.

It has been on my mind for months the differences in my shooting between any firearm in SA vs even the same one in DA. Haunted my nights. Since this is a trigger discussion, what you train with is what you get familiar with and single-gunning will always hide an issue as one adapts farther into the platform.

In my case it was DA shooting. Nothing but DA shooting in the worlds best trigger ever: A S&W Revolver. 1911 this, Glock that, nothing beats the mechanical results of a good S&W Revolver. However I almost never fired it in SA and did years worth (probably 7-8 years worth) only on that platform. I can put 2" groups down range as fast as I can pull the trigger on my revolver in DA. I picked up a 44 mag for the first time, totally unfamiliar with the gun and DA slow fire put a 2" group, first time EVER firing a full house 44 mag. I loved it. Given 5 minutes I could probably tighten that group up as the revolver had target sights which were very nice and a much lighter trigger than I am used to. I shoot as well on an H&K USP.. in DA, same gun SA my groups widen out to 6-7"!! Pretty much the same result on any platform, DA I am drilling them, SA I am wild. This is the opposite of most people who do SA better (most people train on guns in SA).

SO here I sit with a rather unique perspective on the whole Trigger Break this, Lighter trigger is better, etc. I disagree. My S&W in DA pull is off the measure for my trigger pull scale. It is like moving heaven and earth, but good god is it smooth. So 1911 trigger, this, glock trigger that. Any platform can hide a weakness. After months of soul searching I am pretty certain what my problem is because my results look like flinch but are not. I am used (muscle memory) to long consistent pulls. From start to finish my muscles expect a consistent weight right up till it breaks. SO what deep secret did I find? Muscle Memory was tripping me up with lighter triggers and short SA triggers was that all the "pull" is at the very end. I tense up, losing my poi and dropping the muzzle. Not for "omg flinch" but because my muscles were confused by the sudden change in trigger pull at the very last part of the motion so I would tense to meet the new found resistance.

So 1911s are not a bad platform but if you only train one way on one platform that platform will hide any flaws in your shooting, period, because you will adapt and compensate.

For further perspective I borrowed a Taurus PT745 Gen 2 (DAO) vs my PT745 Gen 3 (SA/Second Strike). I shot the Gen 2 great, I struggle with my gen 3. Swap my Gen 3 to my weak hand, boom, back in business because I only recently added weak hand shooting to my training so no muscle memory to work with. If anything going strong to weak hand on the same platform will reveal tons of little hidden "shooting issues" you have because you have all the technique and training but no muscle memory so you get to apply your experience to a fresh canvas.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 10:46 AM
This is an interesting argument to me because I am verifiable crap with modern SA firearms. 1911, Glock, my Taurus PT745, even a revolver in SA.

It has been on my mind for months the differences in my shooting between any firearm in SA vs even the same one in DA. Haunted my nights. Since this is a trigger discussion, what you train with is what you get familiar with and single-gunning will always hide an issue as one adapts farther into the platform.

In my case it was DA shooting. Nothing but DA shooting in the worlds best trigger ever: A S&W Revolver. 1911 this, Glock that, nothing beats the mechanical results of a good S&W Revolver. However I almost never fired it in SA and did years worth (probably 7-8 years worth) only on that platform. I can put 2" groups down range as fast as I can pull the trigger on my revolver in DA. I picked up a 44 mag for the first time, totally unfamiliar with the gun and DA slow fire put a 2" group, first time EVER firing a full house 44 mag. I loved it. Given 5 minutes I could probably tighten that group up as the revolver had target sights which were very nice and a much lighter trigger than I am used to. I shoot as well on an H&K USP.. in DA, same gun SA my groups widen out to 6-7"!! Pretty much the same result on any platform, DA I am drilling them, SA I am wild. This is the opposite of most people who do SA better (most people train on guns in SA).

SO here I sit with a rather unique perspective on the whole Trigger Break this, Lighter trigger is better, etc. I disagree. My S&W in DA pull is off the measure for my trigger pull scale. It is like moving heaven and earth, but good god is it smooth. So 1911 trigger, this, glock trigger that. Any platform can hide a weakness. After months of soul searching I am pretty certain what my problem is because my results look like flinch but are not. I am used (muscle memory) to long consistent pulls. From start to finish my muscles expect a consistent weight right up till it breaks. SO what deep secret did I find? Muscle Memory was tripping me up with lighter triggers and short SA triggers was that all the "pull" is at the very end. I tense up, losing my poi and dropping the muzzle. Not for "omg flinch" but because my muscles were confused by the sudden change in trigger pull at the very last part of the motion so I would tense to meet the new found resistance.

So 1911s are not a bad platform but if you only train one way on one platform that platform will hide any flaws in your shooting, period, because you will adapt and compensate.

For further perspective I borrowed a Taurus PT745 Gen 2 (DAO) vs my PT745 Gen 3 (SA/Second Strike). I shot the Gen 2 great, I struggle with my gen 3. Swap my Gen 3 to my weak hand, boom, back in business because I only recently added weak hand shooting to my training so no muscle memory to work with. If anything going strong to weak hand on the same platform will reveal tons of little hidden "shooting issues" you have because you have all the technique and training but no muscle memory so you get to apply your experience to a fresh canvas.

Shenaniguns
07-10-2012, 11:07 AM
I think a truly practiced/experienced/good shooter is so consistent that it shouldn't matter what hunk of metal you pressed in his hands. With the right fundamentals, in theory, every gun should be a tack driver.

Yay or nay?



You're not going to beat the mechanical accuracy the gun and ammo can produce, meaning that if under ideal conditions Gun X produces 8" groups at 25 yards you will not beat that, if Gun Y produces 1" groups at 25 yards than you have something you can personally work up to. Not every gun is a 'tack driver' just like not everybody deserves a gold star for participation.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 11:11 AM
You're not going to beat the mechanical accuracy the gun and ammo can produce, meaning that if under ideal conditions Gun X produces 8" groups at 25 yards you will not beat that, if Gun Y produces 1" groups at 25 yards than you have something you can personally work up to. Not every gun is a 'tack driver' just like not everybody deserves a gold star for participation.
If you have a gun that gives 8" groups at 25yards from a sled then that gun needs to be repaired. No modern firearm should be so inaccurate with perhaps the exception being snub-noses and sub-compacts with barrels of 2" or less. Even then any good snubby will still pull tight groups at 25 yards from a sled. Bullet deviation from modern barrels should not be significant even with less than 2"of barrel within the bounds of appropriate weight bullet for the barrel. 8" at 25 yards mechanical grouping would be something I would expect from a cap and ball revolver firing round-ball in a sled.

Shenaniguns
07-10-2012, 11:18 AM
If you have a gun that gives 8" groups at 25yards from a sled then that gun needs to be repaired. No modern firearm should be so inaccurate with perhaps the exception being snub-noses and sub-compacts with barrels of 2" or less. Even then any good snubby will still pull tight groups at 25 yards from a sled. Bullet deviation from modern barrels should not be significant even with less than 2"of barrel within the bounds of appropriate weight bullet for the barrel. 8" at 25 yards mechanical grouping would be something I would expect from a cap and ball revolver firing round-ball in a sled.


So do you have a list of manufacturer specs that indicate what they should shoot at 25 yards? For that matter, how many manufacturers actually test at that distance to find out? It doesn't exist.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 11:35 AM
So do you have a list of manufacturer specs that indicate what they should shoot at 25 yards? For that matter, how many manufacturers actually test at that distance to find out? It doesn't exist.

I'll give you that they don't test for 6 -sigma when dealing with pistols at 25 yards, except for maybe a quality race gun in a custom shop but given modern tolerances any properly machined gun should hold out to distance where bullet stabilization (for that weight and barrel and rifling) fail.

Note that this is entirely different than a weapon with a lockup problem or one that shoots nice groups a few feet low at 25 yards. If it is accurate at 3,7,10 yards with any given quality control the curve for group widening in a sled (mechanical accuracy) should hold till the bullet destabilizes. Anything that does not is a defective product. In this specific case any fixed barrel should have a very slow curve while any other barrel type will bound whatever deviation is found in the mechanism. An extremely loose gun will indeed have poor mechanical accuracy, this is either a manufacturing defect (loose tolerances, stacking of tolerances) or a worn out gun (replace worn parts). A gun that has a fixed barrel and or good tolerances but has a quickly widening pattern over distance 3,7,10 has a barrel issue. This is assuming good ammunition with consistent bullet weight, charge weight, and bullet dimensions.

If people can ring a gong all day at 10 ad 15 yards with a 6" barrel and a round ball, any modern fire arm should be able to do the same. We are not talking about off hand or rested we are talking in a fixed sled where you do your mechanical testing, which Taurus even does (though I have my doubts as to them doing it before it leaves the factory they do run them if you send it back with a problem).

Every gun that is quality should have a tight and consistent mechanical patterning given good ammo and a sled. Inaccuracy from snub-noses is due to lack of stabilization for ranged shots and human aim limitations.

Cheap ammo is cheap and it will always show at the range. People don't often account that some powder types are actually very temp sensitive, let alone the differences that can occur between a hot gun and a cold gun and compare cold shots to hot shots for a grouping. This throws off a lot of perceptions.

Given:
Identical Atmospheric conditions
Identical Powder Charge
Identical Bullet Dimensions (identical, not just within standard deviation)
Identical Bullet weights
Mechanically Sound Weapon
A fixed Sled

Your bullets should be just about going through the same hole at any given distance (given identical conditions which of course are not fully possible). Even in non-fixed barrels the resonance should not be changing between shots so the mechanical motion of the non-fixed barrel should remain the same every time given all identical conditions which means you should still be getting results as above because you wont see varying harmonics.

Shenaniguns
07-10-2012, 11:40 AM
Theory is so nice, unfortunately it does not always apply to the real world... Especially since your definition of accuracy is probably different than mine.

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 11:45 AM
If you have a gun that gives 8" groups at 25yards from a sled then that gun needs to be repaired. No modern firearm should be so inaccurate with perhaps the exception being snub-noses and sub-compacts with barrels of 2" or less. Even then any good snubby will still pull tight groups at 25 yards from a sled. Bullet deviation from modern barrels should not be significant even with less than 2"of barrel within the bounds of appropriate weight bullet for the barrel. 8" at 25 yards mechanical grouping would be something I would expect from a cap and ball revolver firing round-ball in a sled.

I think your right on the money..
Many people mix up mechanical accuracy with shoot-ability..
Most snubs are accurate as hell, there just hard as hell to shoot accurately (at least for me)

Shenaniguns
07-10-2012, 11:48 AM
I think your right on the money..
Many people mix up mechanical accuracy with shoot-ability..
Most snubs are accurate as hell, there just hard as hell to shoot accurately (at least for me)


I'm not one of them :43:

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 11:57 AM
This is an interesting argument to me because I am verifiable crap with modern SA firearms. 1911, Glock, my Taurus PT745, even a revolver in SA.

It has been on my mind for months the differences in my shooting between any firearm in SA vs even the same one in DA. Haunted my nights. Since this is a trigger discussion, what you train with is what you get familiar with and single-gunning will always hide an issue as one adapts farther into the platform.

In my case it was DA shooting. Nothing but DA shooting in the worlds best trigger ever: A S&W Revolver. 1911 this, Glock that, nothing beats the mechanical results of a good S&W Revolver. However I almost never fired it in SA and did years worth (probably 7-8 years worth) only on that platform. I can put 2" groups down range as fast as I can pull the trigger on my revolver in DA. I picked up a 44 mag for the first time, totally unfamiliar with the gun and DA slow fire put a 2" group, first time EVER firing a full house 44 mag. I loved it. Given 5 minutes I could probably tighten that group up as the revolver had target sights which were very nice and a much lighter trigger than I am used to. I shoot as well on an H&K USP.. in DA, same gun SA my groups widen out to 6-7"!! Pretty much the same result on any platform, DA I am drilling them, SA I am wild. This is the opposite of most people who do SA better (most people train on guns in SA).

SO here I sit with a rather unique perspective on the whole Trigger Break this, Lighter trigger is better, etc. I disagree. My S&W in DA pull is off the measure for my trigger pull scale. It is like moving heaven and earth, but good god is it smooth. So 1911 trigger, this, glock trigger that. Any platform can hide a weakness. After months of soul searching I am pretty certain what my problem is because my results look like flinch but are not. I am used (muscle memory) to long consistent pulls. From start to finish my muscles expect a consistent weight right up till it breaks. SO what deep secret did I find? Muscle Memory was tripping me up with lighter triggers and short SA triggers was that all the "pull" is at the very end. I tense up, losing my poi and dropping the muzzle. Not for "omg flinch" but because my muscles were confused by the sudden change in trigger pull at the very last part of the motion so I would tense to meet the new found resistance.

So 1911s are not a bad platform but if you only train one way on one platform that platform will hide any flaws in your shooting, period, because you will adapt and compensate.

For further perspective I borrowed a Taurus PT745 Gen 2 (DAO) vs my PT745 Gen 3 (SA/Second Strike). I shot the Gen 2 great, I struggle with my gen 3. Swap my Gen 3 to my weak hand, boom, back in business because I only recently added weak hand shooting to my training so no muscle memory to work with. If anything going strong to weak hand on the same platform will reveal tons of little hidden "shooting issues" you have because you have all the technique and training but no muscle memory so you get to apply your experience to a fresh canvas.

This was my point on an earlier post..
And I'm not surprised that if you are manly a DA shooter that this would be your experience..
I've never seen you shoot so I could be totally wrong about this..
But if you are used to prepping a long double action trigger..
Prepping a light Short SA trigger can at first lead to firing the gun before you are mentally ready to fire the gun.
Which for most is uncomfortable, and leads to noticeable anticipation flinch..
I have see this with people I let shoot my limited gun (sub 2lb pull)..
They hit maybe once or twice..
But the more they rounds the shoot the more they flinch..
I attribute this to light trigger sometimes not being as tactile as heavier triggers, and there for not as deliberate in the shooters minds.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 12:17 PM
Theory is so nice, unfortunately it does not always apply to the real world... Especially since your definition of accuracy is probably different than mine.

Well to be fair we are talking precision here, since we are talking groups and sleds. Accuracy would be hitting in a certain area.. oh where is that picture...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/magazine/tct/accuracy_vs_precision_220.jpg

this is a good start and I am not talking theory. My engineering background maybe makes me think in more precise terms than most people who have no idea about how to accurately calculate the propagation of a wave of energy from firing a gun through its frame and the deformation (yes it deforms) that follows let alone how that adds to stacking tolerances and affects end point precision. Not a single gun maker other than a specialty company probably even comes close to 5 sigma, hell most guns probably are 2 sigma if we are lucky. Yet I routinely deal in 6 sigma.

Here is some reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma

I reload so you can assume I am anal retentive when it comes to ammo! HAHA :D

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 12:20 PM
This was my point on an earlier post..
And I'm not surprised that if you are manly a DA shooter that this would be your experience..
I've never seen you shoot so I could be totally wrong about this..
But if you are used to prepping a long double action trigger..
Prepping a light Short SA trigger can at first lead to firing the gun before you are mentally ready to fire the gun.
Which for most is uncomfortable, and leads to noticeable anticipation flinch..
I have see this with people I let shoot my limited gun (sub 2lb pull)..
They hit maybe once or twice..
But the more they rounds the shoot the more they flinch..
I attribute this to light trigger sometimes not being as tactile as heavier triggers, and there for not as deliberate in the shooters minds.

It really sucks and I am working hard to break the habit but you would laugh if you watched me fully release the trigger after every shot and on guns like the 1911 or my CZ-52 where you have no trigger travel take my finger completely off the trigger following each shot. My Taurus resets at less than 1/8th in travel but I still fully release the damn thing without even thinking about it, even when I try and think to hold it in the reset pattern the finger does it's own thing.

Muscle memory, so you can do it without thinking when it counts. Muscle memory, so you do the same thing even when you consciously don't want to!

Shenaniguns
07-10-2012, 12:23 PM
You and I know that this thread is referring to precision and that the two are used in each others place often.

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 12:25 PM
You and I know that this thread is referring to precision and that the two are used in each others place often.

100% with you :) Maybe my links might straighten things out for everyone else. Though all this talk about sleds makes me want to make one and run some videos for people. Don't have the money right now thought to make a quality sled.

jakuda
07-10-2012, 1:43 PM
You and I know that this thread is referring to precision and that the two are used in each others place often.

One of the first things I remember learning from Science class from the 6th grade was the difference between "precision" and "accuracy". Sad that most people still don't know the difference.

Anyhoo, keep your eye on the front sight everyone.

JTROKS
07-10-2012, 1:46 PM
You got to have the right gun and ammo combination to have a tack driver. You can have an accurately built pistol, but if you feed it junk ammo it won't give you those one ragged hole groups.

Carlosa
07-10-2012, 1:51 PM
You got to have the right gun and ammo combination to have a tack driver. You can have an accurately built pistol, but if you feed it junk ammo it won't give you those one ragged hole groups.

Hey Dood!!
Great to see you here!!
I still have one of your awesome bullet buttons :)
You think you might ever make some of those again?
Take care brother :)

tbc
07-10-2012, 2:02 PM
One of the first things I remember learning from Science class from the 6th grade was the difference between "precision" and "accuracy". Sad that most people still don't know the difference.

Anyhoo, keep your eye on the front sight everyone.

Haha. Glad to have read your post first. I was about to post the same comment.

Problem is this is how Internet forum is using the term "accuracy". So in order to convey the message effectively to the majority of the audience, "accuracy" is a better term IMO.

BTW: My shot has improved significantly thanks to your posts Jakuda. And of course thanks to Calguns! :D


Sent from my iPhone

meaty-btz
07-10-2012, 3:23 PM
meaty-btz, are you getting paid by the word? Brevity; look it up.

Is this Twitter and I didn't know it? Or rather, is this a forum. These are some of my shortest answers. I can go on for pages. Also, the correct response in this day and age is: TL:DR

Snoopy47
07-10-2012, 7:38 PM
Whatever is said here, only ammo and trigger time is going to yield results in shooting performance.

Neptune
07-11-2012, 12:52 AM
Become proficient with Glocks, XD's, HK's and then shoot a 1911. You can hear the chorus of angels everytime you pull the trigger...







http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k493/MilkSteakAndMagnets/funny-date-girl-guy-true-story-meme_thumb.jpg


__

cruising7388
07-11-2012, 10:56 AM
Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

Hey, don't knock it before trying it:tt1:

Carlosa
07-11-2012, 12:38 PM
Become proficient with Glocks, XD's, HK's and then shoot a 1911. You can hear the chorus of angels everytime you pull the trigger...







http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k493/MilkSteakAndMagnets/funny-date-girl-guy-true-story-meme_thumb.jpg


__

More like become proficient with any pistol, and you will stop thinking that some firearms are more "magical than others"
I didn't learn to appreciate glocks until I started competition (where I shoot highly tuned 1911's), and realized that if I applied the same amount of work to any firearm I could do well with it :)

tal3nt
07-11-2012, 12:46 PM
In a nutshell: 1911's are the easiest centerfire handguns to shoot.

tbc
07-11-2012, 12:51 PM
^^^ Yep.

Or any Ruger .22 LR in general.


Sent from my iPhone

jjdurso
07-11-2012, 1:02 PM
I just came back from the range with my new 10mm Witness:
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa457/jjdurso/2012-07-11_13-13-03_220.jpg
10 shots at 10 yards with the crappy stock DA trigger...

I LOVE THIS GUN!


My new love affair with the Witness aside, my first pistol was a Walther OSP 2000 Olympic Rapid Fire Pistol with a 47 gram trigger, so naturally I'm spoiled. But I would also say that qualifies me to speak to the question of equipment/skill. I will answer definitively: YES! I started pistol shooting at ten with the finest equipment in the world and top notch training, took a decade off and started shooting production guns, let me tell you, the equipment makes a huge difference. If I pick up a stock Glock, Beretta or CZ, I can keep from embarrassing myself (barely), but once I install some Wolff Springs and Hogue Grips, I see the difference immediately. I'm in the process of putting together a tricked out, compensated, single action 9mm, when I start shooting it I'll keep you posted.

jjdurso
07-11-2012, 1:05 PM
PS: I can't stand 1911s! The grip's too straight and the sights are too high, but that's just me.

SilverTauron
07-11-2012, 1:11 PM
[/B]

When Bubba decides he wants to give his 1911 a trigger job, this is usually how they end up going full auto.

I think its hilarious that you bash the very model gun that you have as your avatar.

Since you asked for an account I give it thus:

Shot my first full auto today (too bad it was a 1911)
So I went to the range today and shot about 300 rounds through my Dan Wesson CBOB. All was going well, other than one magazine failing to feed on the last round twice and failing to lock the slide back once. All this was with the same magazine so it was clearly the issue. Nearing the end of the range session I decided to to some rapid fire drills. Suddenly I got a two shot burst. Wow, that was fast I thought, secretly hoping I was much faster than I actually am, but knowing deep down something was probably wrong. I shot a few more rounds, reloaded and all of the sudden a five shot burst. Uh oh, thats not only illegal, its inaccurate and dangerous.

When I got home I looked into some tests. I initially assumed it was the disconnector because I've read that it being to short or too worn out could cause this (The gun only has about 600 rounds through it). I could not get the hammer to follow the slide doing any type of disconnector test though. Then I tried locking the slide back, pulling the trigger and releasing the slide lock allowing it to slam home. Sure enough four out of five times the hammer followed the slide.

So I'm assuming its a sear problem. I guess I'll probably have to send it in since fixing it appears to be well beyond my abilities.

Anyway, if anyone ever thought it would be awesome to have a full auto 1911, its not.


-http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=295827

I am not really new here or to firearms but have not posted in a while but have been lurking around and need some advice. I went to the range today to finally try out my like new S&W 1911 sc. I had brought different types of ammo and Wilson and Chip McCormick magazines( as I am told these are some of the best).

Anyway, I loaded the first magazine with Lawman fmj's and began to fire it and it worked like a charm. I fired it again and thought I had a double shot/burst occur, without actually pulling the trigger twice. So I thought maybe it was just the newness of the pistol and tried again thinking it was just me. I put in some Remington fmj's and with the rangemaster standing behind me of all times, the gun rang out 2-3 rounds in a full auto mode. I had a firm grip and no one was injured and no damage done to the outside range fortunately. The rangemaster noticed what happened and said to only put 2 rounds in the magzine and try it again. And wouldn't you know it,it did it again. All ammo. was factory loaded and the mags. were new. Any one have any clue as to why this would happen? The internals are in like condition and no work was done to them as they are all blued and no bluing wear noted. I called S&W and they said to send it in.
-http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/64704-anyone-else-own-full-auto-1911-a.html

Like it or not, the 1911 can malfunction and trigger a full auto event without any interference by the user. I await accounts of Glocks suffering similar failures without user modification.

By the way that silver .45 ACP handgun in my avatar is NOT a 1911 or a derivative thereof. Nice try though. ;)

Carlosa
07-11-2012, 1:36 PM
Since you asked for an account I give it thus:

Shot my first full auto today (too bad it was a 1911)
So I went to the range today and shot about 300 rounds through my Dan Wesson CBOB. All was going well, other than one magazine failing to feed on the last round twice and failing to lock the slide back once. All this was with the same magazine so it was clearly the issue. Nearing the end of the range session I decided to to some rapid fire drills. Suddenly I got a two shot burst. Wow, that was fast I thought, secretly hoping I was much faster than I actually am, but knowing deep down something was probably wrong. I shot a few more rounds, reloaded and all of the sudden a five shot burst. Uh oh, thats not only illegal, its inaccurate and dangerous.

When I got home I looked into some tests. I initially assumed it was the disconnector because I've read that it being to short or too worn out could cause this (The gun only has about 600 rounds through it). I could not get the hammer to follow the slide doing any type of disconnector test though. Then I tried locking the slide back, pulling the trigger and releasing the slide lock allowing it to slam home. Sure enough four out of five times the hammer followed the slide.

So I'm assuming its a sear problem. I guess I'll probably have to send it in since fixing it appears to be well beyond my abilities.

Anyway, if anyone ever thought it would be awesome to have a full auto 1911, its not.


-http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=295827

I am not really new here or to firearms but have not posted in a while but have been lurking around and need some advice. I went to the range today to finally try out my like new S&W 1911 sc. I had brought different types of ammo and Wilson and Chip McCormick magazines( as I am told these are some of the best).

Anyway, I loaded the first magazine with Lawman fmj's and began to fire it and it worked like a charm. I fired it again and thought I had a double shot/burst occur, without actually pulling the trigger twice. So I thought maybe it was just the newness of the pistol and tried again thinking it was just me. I put in some Remington fmj's and with the rangemaster standing behind me of all times, the gun rang out 2-3 rounds in a full auto mode. I had a firm grip and no one was injured and no damage done to the outside range fortunately. The rangemaster noticed what happened and said to only put 2 rounds in the magzine and try it again. And wouldn't you know it,it did it again. All ammo. was factory loaded and the mags. were new. Any one have any clue as to why this would happen? The internals are in like condition and no work was done to them as they are all blued and no bluing wear noted. I called S&W and they said to send it in.
-http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/64704-anyone-else-own-full-auto-1911-a.html

Like it or not, the 1911 can malfunction and trigger a full auto event without any interference by the user. I await accounts of Glocks suffering similar failures without user modification.

By the way that silver .45 ACP handgun in my avatar is NOT a 1911 or a derivative thereof. Nice try though. ;)

did this happen to you?? or are you posting other people's anecdotal stories?
(sorry the first seem to be something that happened to you but the second seems to be an internet anecdotal from some one else).. Were this weapons new, or second hand (second hand could have been worked on by the previous owner)? 1911's going full auto is not common... even if you happen to have hammer follow, the hammer has a hammer stop notch, so that if it falls it will catch just short of striking the firing pin.. and hammer follow is usually only common on guns that have been worked on. it's not to say that it can't happen.. but it's definitely rear for it to happen to out of the box guns from the factory.. now magazines... that a whole different topic.. :)

jonzer77
07-11-2012, 1:51 PM
Was this your gun or did you search the web for the last few days to find someone writing about a problem that you have no first hand knowledge on?

jjdurso
07-11-2012, 1:55 PM
The right equipment can make a chump look like a hero, but amazing people do amazing things with guns:
Tied-t1fFskVrGoDnyEO6U

skosh69
07-11-2012, 7:02 PM
Well, after reading the OP's troll post....there's 30 secs of my life wasted!

You can have the best tuned 1911 out there and hand it to someone who doesn't understand how to shoot a 1911 and trust me, they won't hit the broadside of a barn. Where as you can take a loose fitted, rattling old beater of a 1911 and hand it to a seasoned shooter and they can hit bullseye's all day long.

"The shooter makes the gun, the gun does NOT make the shooter"

Neptune
07-12-2012, 10:00 PM
More like become proficient with any pistol, and you will stop thinking that some firearms are more "magical than others"
I didn't learn to appreciate glocks until I started competition (where I shoot highly tuned 1911's), and realized that if I applied the same amount of work to any firearm I could do well with it :)

I've got proficiency on a broad range of pistols and revolvers, from small to ridiculous. The 1911 works well for me. Old John knew exactly what he was doing when he created the 1911, but I like other pistols as well. The 1911 is far too heavy and carries too few round compared to many pistols, but it works perfect for me, I'm a big guy and don't think twice a CCW a full framed steel 1911.

Having said that though, the Glock is an impressive piece of equipment. I don't care for the overall ergonomics, and it won't win any prizes beyond those meant for functionality and reliability, but it's a tack driver when properly handled. The light weight and capacity is great too...but it doesn't give me enlightenment like my 1911's do. ;)

1911's certainly aren't for everyone, but they work well for me.



__

Carlosa
07-12-2012, 10:17 PM
I've got proficiency on a broad range of pistols and revolvers, from small to ridiculous. The 1911 works well for me. Old John knew exactly what he was doing when he created the 1911, but I like other pistols as well. The 1911 is far too heavy and carries too few round compared to many pistols, but it works perfect for me, I'm a big guy and don't think twice a CCW a full framed steel 1911.

Having said that though, the Glock is an impressive piece of equipment. I don't care for the overall ergonomics, and it won't win any prizes beyond those meant for functionality and reliability, but it's a tack driver when properly handled. The light weight and capacity is great too...but it doesn't give me enlightenment like my 1911's do. ;)

1911's certainly aren't for everyone, but they work well for me.



__

Sound like you would enjoy upgrading to a sti 2011 :)
Get the best of both worlds a high cap & 1911.. 8D

Carlosa
07-12-2012, 10:19 PM
I've got proficiency on a broad range of pistols and revolvers, from small to ridiculous. The 1911 works well for me. Old John knew exactly what he was doing when he created the 1911, but I like other pistols as well. The 1911 is far too heavy and carries too few round compared to many pistols, but it works perfect for me, I'm a big guy and don't think twice a CCW a full framed steel 1911.

Having said that though, the Glock is an impressive piece of equipment. I don't care for the overall ergonomics, and it won't win any prizes beyond those meant for functionality and reliability, but it's a tack driver when properly handled. The light weight and capacity is great too...but it doesn't give me enlightenment like my 1911's do. ;)

1911's certainly aren't for everyone, but they work well for me.



__
By the way is your avatar a trp operator?
I have that same gun in my safe :)

joker70
07-13-2012, 4:49 AM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

I think you got it backwards. With the ugly girl you f@#$ like a porn star. With the prom queen, you're hoping you don't have a negligent discharge.

Lead Waster
07-13-2012, 9:23 AM
Some people think I'm trolling and that this is a disguised 1911 bashing thread. I might be trolling a bit, but I'm certainly not bashing.

Ergonomics and looks are completely subjective, since people have different tastes and hands, etc.

But one thing you can't deny is that the 1911 trigger is unique (how come?!) and it really is forgiving.

A proper 1911 trigger has no take up, no pretravel. As people describe it, it's like a glass rod breaking. You really do PRESS on the trigger, straight back and it DOESN'T MOVE until it breaks and the gun fires. It lends to almost no finger movement during firing, you just press the trigger back harder and harder until the shot breaks and that means less gun movement and thus a better shot.

Most other pivoting triggers (even SA models, like CZ-75 SAO) have some movement involved as you are PULLING the trigger towards the back of the gun. You really must be a master of pulling straight back with your trigger finger pad without moving your other fingers. If you can do that, then you are a good shot.

Smoothness only really applies to DAO and DA/SA trigger pulls.

Picture this, you have a full glass of water. On a smooth table, you can push the glass along the table without spilling the glass. On a rough table, as you push, you'll spill water as you hit spots on the table that are not as smooth, like your kid spilled grape juice or syrup on spots. Even with the smooth trigger, you have to be a pretty good shooter when you can pull that trigger in without affecting the position of the gun.

A LIGHT trigger on a 1911 means you just don't have to press as hard before the shot breaks, which makes the gun move less before the shot breaks. This of course aids in the accuracy of your shot.

So my original point is that a 1911, especially one with a light trigger is very forgiving of you if you line up the sights and commit to shooting, it will help you out a lot by limiting the amount of movement you are required to make before the shot breaks. Other guns are less forgiving because their triggers (in general) move more or are gritty or are heavier, all which affects your trigger pull/press.

If you only care about shooting 1911's, then that's fine. Most of use shoot as a hobby anyway, and there is nothing that will ever force us to ever have to shoot any other gun.


Maybe I should rephrase my original post and say that 1911's HELP YOU shoot more accurately by requiring less training and effort, so it is EASIER TO MASTER.

I'm an by no means bashing 1911s, in fact I'm complimenting their ability to make mediocre/good shooters into good/great shooters. But it also lets you slack on some of the fundamentals of shooting, like being able to truly pull/press the trigger STRAIGHT.


And yes, of course "It's the Indian, not the Arrow" (or rather the BOW). Most real top shooters can pick up anything and shoot well with it because they have mastered the fundamentals, not the platform.

Anyone remember that guy on the first season of Top Shot who constantly complained that the reason he was missing his targets was because he had to use a Beretta 92FS in the show, when the gun he shoots competitively was his highly tuned Glock 34 (or 35, whatever)? I would consider him a better shot than ME, but not a "top shot" because without his pet equipment, he wasn't very good.

Flame on!

jonzer77
07-13-2012, 10:49 AM
You are incorrect that 1911's don't have pre travel........there isn't a lot, but there is still some pre travel.

You can have the lightest trigger in the word but if you flinch, then you will still be inaccurate.

helpme
07-13-2012, 11:14 AM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.


:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

ZX-10R
07-13-2012, 2:58 PM
Just picked up my M&P 45 from Scott at Apex Tactical...I can already feel the trigger being extremely close to my Colt 1911...This will be interesting this weekend.

Kendoka
07-13-2012, 5:22 PM
I am always curious when people comment about a specific gun and how well they shoot it. I think generally they are referring to marksmanship. Since folks are posting pictures of well shot groups presumably fired with no time pressure, I assume marksmanship is the criterion being used for determining which gun is "shot well." How would everyone's rating change if gun handling, engaging multiple targets at varying distances, and time pressure were also considered as criteria?

For myself, I have spent the last year focused on ICORE and revolvers. Because of that, I am probably shooting my S&W 627 about as well as anything else.

ZX-10R, Randy Lee from Apex did a front to back job on my 627 (including his low mass trigger). He is an artist. I am sure you will really dig your M&P.

Snoopy47
07-13-2012, 5:45 PM
.....How would everyone's rating change if gun handling, engaging multiple targets at varying distances, and time pressure were also considered as criteria?.......

One has to get the fundamentals down first.

A poor marksman will not be a good combat shooter.

A good marksman could work towards being a good combat shooter.

Platform precision really isn’t a consideration of a combat arm. I am most proficient with the gun I use the most.

Marksmanship is a universal measurement of competence.

Not proud to say it, I miss a few times here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmwcdv7XbwM

beerman
07-13-2012, 7:23 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

This:rolleyes:

fennecfrank
07-13-2012, 8:28 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

+1
haven't seen a good response like this for a long long time.



to OP:

with your logic, you need to protest to auto races to make everyone stop using nice f-1 cars, tour cars, off road cars and race "stock cars"

dude, 1911 is not the magic gun that you just point and bullet will hit targets..... you still need practice and skills.

and i would love to see you sell all your $450+ plastic guns to buy lowest end $100 guns....those should be your ideal guns.....

deadhawg
07-13-2012, 8:44 PM
Shooting a $3,000 Les Baer 1911 won't turn a crappy shot into an expert, and an expert will shoot a loose tolerance GI 1911 better than the crappy shot too.

Most decent quality handguns are capable of better accuracy than the average shooter is able to demonstrate anyway.

well206
07-13-2012, 9:21 PM
Thread has gone off topic a bit it seems. Thread definitely not started as a criticism of the capability of 1911s.

My 2 cents, I shoot tighter groups with 1911s than with polymer guns, but I am still the same shooter - same overall skill level and same fundamentals across all platforms. And the bigger groups with the polymer guns shows me that I have room for improvement.

If a person only saw his or her groups shot with a 1911 and they were already pretty tight, one may not notice some of the improvement one can still make when it comes to some fundamentals, that apply to all handguns.

jakuda
07-13-2012, 10:02 PM
........

If a person only saw his or her groups shot with a 1911 and they were already pretty tight, one may not notice some of the improvement one can still make when it comes to some fundamentals, that apply to all handguns.

One only needs to shoot at longer distances to realize how much improvement in marksmanship one can still make. Unfortunately, people are unwilling or rationalize away the need to practice at 25 yards or further.

nickbackouris
07-13-2012, 11:05 PM
I have an idea. Everyone arguing gets to pick a gun, pace off 25 yards, turn, then shoot. Last one standing wins the argument.

The rest of us will enjoy shooting whatever we please, when we please.

If you're a bullseye shooter, shoot whatever makes you hit bullseyes.
If you're the weekend plinker, shoot whatever makes you smile.
If you're the lots-of-gun owning guy that can't really shoot any of them well, at least start shooting something.
1911 guys are always going to shoot 1911's, and swear by them.
Glock guys have a similar club.
Then there is the generic "it has to be all metal" club. Fun guys, lots of variety.

Meanwhile, I'm going to ave a bbq, shoot some guns, then a beer, and begin waving my American flag like it's my job. It's America, you shouldn't own more than one handgun anyway.

KDTS
07-14-2012, 12:10 AM
What if I suck with my 1911? I'm a much better shot with my Glock (for better or worse), I always tend to break the muzzle down on my SA Mil-spec. Can't hit the broad side of a barn. Sure is pretty, though. LOL

jonzer77
07-14-2012, 12:20 AM
What if I suck with my 1911? I'm a much better shot with my Glock (for better or worse), I always tend to break the muzzle down on my SA Mil-spec. Can't hit the broad side of a barn. Sure is pretty, though. LOL

Shoot with whatever you are comfortable with and that's all that matters.

Neptune
07-14-2012, 1:57 AM
Sound like you would enjoy upgrading to a sti 2011 :)
Get the best of both worlds a high cap & 1911.. 8D


STI's are pretty sweet. I've had a chance to lust after a few. My brother has a bunch of double stack Para's which are really nice too, but I'm a single stack kind of guy, I love the narrow profile. I'd keep the STI double stacks around as safe queens, but I'm more of a shooter who doesn't keep anything around that isn't something I would tend to carry.


By the way is your avatar a trp operator?
I have that same gun in my safe :)

Sure is. It's my daily carry. Heavy? Maybe a bit, but I hardly notice. I'm in tune with that piece, and it shoots instinctively for me. You can load the magazine randomly and I can tell you how many rounds it has in it from feel, and it's something that gets a lot of range time. When the finish wears off completely from continual use, I'll just have it refinished and do it some more. It's a great carry piece, low recoil, low rise and fast recovery, well balanced, more accurate than most pieces, and plenty reliable. Since you own a TRP Operator, I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, it's an awesome tool to use. It's also solid enough to use as a club if all else fails. :smash:

Shoot with whatever you are comfortable with and that's all that matters.

I agree. I know a lot of guys who buy guns based on reputation, or because they look cool. They end up unhappy with them, can't hit a barn, or the gun is just plain impractical. Try out a bunch, rent a few, shoot with a friend, whatever, and find out what feels good. Some guys will never like 1911's or the amount of training it takes to get proficient, some guys won't ever get used to the Glock's wonky grip profile and feel, and some guys won't ever shoot anything outside of revolvers.

To the young or new guys out there, I'd recommend getting proficient in whatever your carry pieces are, then move out from there. Try single actions, they're a ton of fun. Double action revolvers are cool too. Try a Browning Hi Power, an HK P7, and everything CZ offers. The more familiar you are with different weapons, the more proficient you'll grow as your technique improves. Improve the breadth of your knowledge and your overall skill will improve.

Most importantly, you've got to shoot...a lot! Practice makes perfect, or at least gets you in the rings... ;)



__

KDTS
07-14-2012, 4:20 AM
I agree. I know a lot of guys who buy guns based on reputation, or because they look cool. They end up unhappy with them, can't hit a barn, or the gun is just plain impractical. Try out a bunch, rent a few, shoot with a friend, whatever, and find out what feels good. Some guys will never like 1911's or the amount of training it takes to get proficient, some guys won't ever get used to the Glock's wonky grip profile and feel, and some guys won't ever shoot anything outside of revolvers.

To the young or new guys out there, I'd recommend getting proficient in whatever your carry pieces are, then move out from there. Try single actions, they're a ton of fun. Double action revolvers are cool too. Try a Browning Hi Power, an HK P7, and everything CZ offers. The more familiar you are with different weapons, the more proficient you'll grow as your technique improves. Improve the breadth of your knowledge and your overall skill will improve.

Most importantly, you've got to shoot...a lot! Practice makes perfect, or at least gets you in the rings...

I think you're totally right... I'm new to shooting (been shooting for almost exactly a year now), and it's hard to say what I really like, without shooting everything. I've owned a couple of Glocks and a SA 1911, and shot XDs, USPs, Kimbers, Rugers, S&W and even a Taurus, and I'm still really trying to figure out what I'm most comfortable with. I like how my 1911 looks and that it's an homage to our firearm history, but since I'm so poor at shooting it (I have gotten a bit better, but the last 500 rounds I've put through haven't felt like they've improved much), I'm almost considering selling it. Right now I don't need any safe queens, and I can't really afford them anyhow. I'd definitely prefer to just focus on learning one first, but I know there are things I like and don't like about each and I want to find something I REALLY like. Ironically (?) I felt the best shooting my friend's Taurus PT92, but I can't bring myself to sell either my Gen4 Glock (not a LEO) or my 1911... because I feel like I should just have one for some reason... haha.

/rant

joelberg
07-14-2012, 7:32 AM
If you want to learn good trigger control, get an 1895 Nagant revolver and shoot it double action. Then when you go to the 1911 you'll be a pro. Seriously, if you can master a hardcore heavy long gnarly double action trigger, you will be an awesome shooter with any gun.

But if you train primarily with your high end 1911 you might be a good shot with that gun, but you won't be able to move back over and carry those skills to the double action system. It's a lot like the 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke dirt bike debate. Learn to ride fast on a 125 smoker and you will be a badass on a 250 4t or 450 4t. Learn to ride fast on a 250 4t you will still suck at riding the 125 2t.

At least that's been my experience.

CaffeinFeign
07-14-2012, 7:55 AM
for what it is worth...I am a 1911 guy. I like the gun! It's what I love to shoot.. I have shot other platforms...but I always go back to 1911. I also like 45's.. this is not a size that I believe a person can pick up once or twice a year and be good with. It takes lots of range time, lots of home time.
I study classical guitar...I take the same approch to shooting... S L O W practice. It all comes down to movement memory. I practice reloading and sight picture at home (with snap caps). I try and do a lot of dry fire practice... I have started to see improvment at the range. I have gotten into reloading and found a powder weight that fits my shooting style and that my 1911 really likes. I would think...what ever weapon you fall in love with...you will probably be good with, and if you use it a lot...I don't think it would matter what weapon system you pick up... basic techniques will carry over..:)

Brian1979
07-14-2012, 8:05 AM
I have five 1911's all high end, glocks, HK, J frame. I love my 1911 the most but I can shoot anything now accurately even guns of my friends which I have never held. In the end I think when you learn the fundamentals it wont matter what you shoot. My issue is flinching when I shoot a new gun. Its hard to break that and it seems with new guns comes newbie habits.

jonzer77
07-14-2012, 9:16 AM
I have five 1911's all high end, glocks, HK, J frame. I love my 1911 the most but I can shoot anything now accurately even guns of my friends which I have never held. In the end I think when you learn the fundamentals it wont matter what you shoot. My issue is flinching when I shoot a new gun. Its hard to break that and it seems with new guns comes newbie habits.

This is so true! When I shot my new to me S&W 1006 I flinched at the first shot because of the anticipation of the 10mm. Then when I realized it wasn't bad at all I put two shots right next to each other. Then I proceeded to shoot a flyer for the final shot lol.

Neptune
07-14-2012, 10:21 PM
This is so true! When I shot my new to me S&W 1006 I flinched at the first shot because of the anticipation of the 10mm. Then when I realized it wasn't bad at all I put two shots right next to each other. Then I proceeded to shoot a flyer for the final shot lol.

Those S&W 1006's are so cool. 10mm is a great round, but can be a handful.

I got used to shooting my Ruger .454 Casull with a variety of .45 Colt and .454 Casull rounds, and had to get used to not flinching. I learned to do this by randomly loading the cylinder.

I'd mix up a batch of .45 Colt with hot .454 rounds, and randomly insert them into the cylinder, spin it, then close it and shoot. You never know if you're going to get a low base .45 Colt @ 400 ft lbs, or a hot .454 Casull @ 1800 ft lbs. It's always a mystery whether it's going to pack a punishing wallop, or just a nice lightweight kick, but the randomness and the focus required to stay on target train you to forget about flinching. You end up worrying more about consistency and accuracy, instead of focusing on what's coming next. You just deal with it instead of anticipating what's about to happen.

I've known a lot of guys who have trained this way with .38 Special / .357 Mag, and it's a good technique to master. Using a .454 Casull just makes things a bit more interesting... ;) Pow Pow Pow BOOM Pow BOOM.... It always wakes up the sleepers on the firing line, that's for sure.




__

chickenfried
07-25-2012, 11:56 AM
Reminded me of this article I read in Blue Press a few months ago, was able to find it online. I'm group A...
http://www.idpa.us/Shooting-Tip-Accurate-or-Fast.aspx
One has to get the fundamentals down first.

A poor marksman will not be a good combat shooter.

A good marksman could work towards being a good combat shooter.

Platform precision really isn’t a consideration of a combat arm. I am most proficient with the gun I use the most.

Marksmanship is a universal measurement of competence.

Lead Waster
07-25-2012, 12:21 PM
to OP:

with your logic, you need to protest to auto races to make everyone stop using nice f-1 cars, tour cars, off road cars and race "stock cars"

dude, 1911 is not the magic gun that you just point and bullet will hit targets..... you still need practice and skills.

and i would love to see you sell all your $450+ plastic guns to buy lowest end $100 guns....those should be your ideal guns.....

You completely missed the point of the topic.

1911's are very forgiving because the trigger is so awesome, it allows the shooter to be a bit sloppy and still get "good hits". This masks errors in the fundamentals. 1911's happily provide you with a "surprise break" because the triggers break like glass.

Let's take your car example. If you gave anyone an F1 car with sticky tires and gave them a nice empty race track with lovely banked turns, I'm guessing they can drive pretty fast. Take that same guy and stick him in a Honda Civic in a rainstorm and he'll probably crash the first chance he gets. "Hey, how come my car isn't sticking to the road like glue? Why is it so slow? This handling is horrible!".

Or let me take a guy in an Mercedes with automatic shift and put him in a Chevy with stick shift and see how easily he can bully other cars on the highway!

No, a high end 1911 won't make a crap shooter good. And yes, a really good shooter can squeeze that extra performance out of a really good 1911. But it does forgive the crappy shooter some of his problems and lets him shoot OK. But then he won't try and work on the issues that he doesn't know are there!

When people say "My $3000 Les Baer is incredibly accurate, my friend's Glock can't even hit the bullseye at 7 yards" actually means "I'm not a very good shot if I'm not using the best equipment available to mask my errors"

Put any gun in Todd Jarret or David Sevigny's hands and they'll out shoot most of us, whether it's a Glock or 1911. But for a lot of us, we shoot 1911's better than Glocks of DA revolvers because we use the sweet trigger of the 1911 as an unintentional crutch.

So my point is that if you shoot well with a 1911, but not a Glock, then you would really benefit from mastering the Glock because really you are refining the fundamental shooting skills. When you go back to the 1911, you'll be an even better shot.

I found this true of myself. I shoot my 1911 better than my Glock 21. Same caliber, same ammo. I KNOW I need to work on stuff because I see this difference.

jonzer77
07-25-2012, 12:24 PM
You completely missed the point of the topic.

1911's are very forgiving because the trigger is so awesome, it allows the shooter to be a bit sloppy and still get "good hits". This masks errors in the fundamentals. 1911's happily provide you with a "surprise break" because the triggers break like glass.

Let's take your car example. If you gave anyone an F1 car with sticky tires and gave them a nice empty race track with lovely banked turns, I'm guessing they can drive pretty fast. Take that same guy and stick him in a Honda Civic in a rainstorm and he'll probably crash the first chance he gets. "Hey, how come my car isn't sticking to the road like glue? Why is it so slow? This handling is horrible!".

Or let me take a guy in an Mercedes with automatic shift and put him in a Chevy with stick shift and see how easily he can bully other cars on the highway!

No, a high end 1911 won't make a crap shooter good. And yes, a really good shooter can squeeze that extra performance out of a really good 1911. But it does forgive the crappy shooter some of his problems and lets him shoot OK. But then he won't try and work on the issues that he doesn't know are there!

When people say "My $3000 Les Baer is incredibly accurate, my friend's Glock can't even hit the bullseye at 7 yards" actually means "I'm not a very good shot if I'm not using the best equipment available to mask my errors"

Put any gun in Todd Jarret or David Sevigny's hands and they'll out shoot most of us, whether it's a Glock or 1911. But for a lot of us, we shoot 1911's better than Glocks of DA revolvers because we use the sweet trigger of the 1911 as an unintentional crutch.

So my point is that if you shoot well with a 1911, but not a Glock, then you would really benefit from mastering the Glock because really you are refining the fundamental shooting skills. When you go back to the 1911, you'll be an even better shot.

I found this true of myself. I shoot my 1911 better than my Glock 21. Same caliber, same ammo. I KNOW I need to work on stuff because I see this difference.

A flinch is still a flinch no matter what gun you use.

jjdurso
07-25-2012, 12:51 PM
Man, you're really taking a beating on this thread Lead Waster. I guess the whole 1911/Glock thing is what throws me off, because I'm not fond of either, but I get what you're saying. I went to the Olympic Festival when I was 14 shooting a .22 short with a 47 gram trigger, but I couldn't shoot a Beretta 92 to save my life; it has taken me some time to get good at shooting cheap guns. I now take pride in taking some beater rental gun and shooting fist sized groups at ten yards.

But the CZ75 and it's variants, now those are some sweet shooters!
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa457/jjdurso/2012-07-11_13-13-03_220.jpg

tbc
07-25-2012, 6:05 PM
A flinch is still a flinch no matter what gun you use.

Make sense only if a flinch is substantial. But if a flinch is minimal, the pistol with lighter and shorter pull can hide reduce the error.


Sent from my iPhone

jonzer77
07-25-2012, 8:49 PM
Make sense only if a flinch is substantial. But if a flinch is minimal, the pistol with lighter and shorter pull can hide reduce the error.


Sent from my iPhone

If your flinch is minimal then your shot will be on target unless you can't get a correct sight picture.

Grayblue
07-25-2012, 9:24 PM
"Even if you shoot pistol A better, you can shoot pistol B just as good with enough training."

This may not be wrong, but it's foolish.

Because the time and resources wasted on making skill with shooting pistol B as good as pistol A could have been better used for shooting pistol A even better.

Also, combat is a business of professional realism, not amaturish enthusiasm. You take every advantage you can get, whether if it's skill or an edge provided by more suited equipment. If there is a gun that's more forgiving of shooter error with all other characteristics being suitable, not taking that is foolish.

I do have a 1911, but it's not my primary pistol even though it has a better trigger than most of my other guns. That's not because I am particularly interested in impressing my opponent about how I can still beat them with a gun that has a heavier trigger resistance than a 1911.

My training goal is not about becoming a master of every type of gun I can imagine. It's to have the ability to win utilizing LIMITED resources in the most effective way. LIMITED resources must be taken into account. It's negligent to make an equipment decision or make a plan of action based on skills you wish you have that is attainable with time and money you don't have.

tbc
07-25-2012, 10:29 PM
If your flinch is minimal then your shot will be on target unless you can't get a correct sight picture.

Yeah. You're correct when shooting at 5-7 yards. ;)

When flinching, it will most likely screw up sight alignment. Sight alignment is essential when shooting at far distance. Say 20 to 25 yards.

jonzer77
07-25-2012, 10:37 PM
Yeah. You're correct when shooting at 5-7 yards. ;)

When flinching, it will most likely screw up sight alignment. Sight alignment is essential when shooting at far distance. Say 20 to 25 yards.

Well yeah, still not sure how you are relating that to a 1911 and a DA gun.

jakuda
07-25-2012, 11:03 PM
With all this arguing, people ought to dry fire more and get better instead of talking about it.

MrExel17
07-25-2012, 11:05 PM
Yes, but partly because I practice with it.

chickenfried
07-25-2012, 11:09 PM
But dry fire with what? I heard to get the same increase in skills you get on one trigger pull using a lorcin you'd have to take ten with a SA PRO.

With all this arguing, people ought to dry fire more and get better instead of talking about it.

phdo
07-25-2012, 11:34 PM
My Springfield Loaded is amazing!!! One hell of a shooter. Accurate as hell. It was my first gun and I'm still in love with it. The only guns that would beat it are my Smith revolvers. I've been meaning to add a Pony to my collection.

jakuda
07-25-2012, 11:44 PM
But dry fire with what? I heard to get the same increase in skills you get on one trigger pull using a lorcin you'd have to take ten with a SA PRO.

One can practice trigger pull with a rubber band and a stick. Which in all seriousness is very good and very cheap practice.

Dry fire on every single firearm you own.

HeavyHitterPinoy415
07-25-2012, 11:46 PM
So you're suggesting we should all train to the lowest common denominator of handguns with lousy ergonomics and poor triggers? Whats next, only having sex with ugly girls?

I'll stick with the prom queens and 1911's.

lmao!

phdo
07-25-2012, 11:50 PM
My Springfield Loaded is amazing!!! One hell of a shooter. Accurate as hell. It was my first gun and I'm still in love with it. The only guns that would beat it are my Smith revolvers. I've been meaning to add a Pony to my collection.

chickenfried
07-25-2012, 11:54 PM
hmmm dry firing with rubber band and stick would be even more effective training tool than the lorcin!

One can practice trigger pull with a rubber band and a stick. Which in all seriousness is very good and very cheap practice.

Dry fire on every single firearm you own.

Hondo1108
07-26-2012, 7:21 AM
If you have a poor sight picture you are not going to shoot a 1911 any better than you would a double action pistol.

On the other hand if you have a good sight picture and so-so trigger control the 1911 is going give you the allusion of shooting a little more accurately than a modern double action pistol because of it's design.

Poor shooting fundamentals cannot be overcome by the best designed firearm unless your using some futuristic self-guided shoot and forget bullet and where is the fun in that?

The weakest link in shooting accurately is and always will be the shooter.

"It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools", but what do I know? :chris: