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View Full Version : Owners with more than 10 guns on FBI/DOJ List?


kjgun
07-09-2012, 12:20 AM
Okay I'm thinking this is scuttlebutt, but a guy told me that if you own more than 10 guns you're on some so-called govt, fbi, doj, police list. I couldn't find a reference for it anywhere as could be some urban legend. He didn't say that anyone would call or anything, but you'd just be on some so-called list. Not sure if anything would ever pop up if you were pulled over or anything like that, but thought I'd ask the community if anyone heard of anything like that.

Anyone here can give this info credence?

IVC
07-09-2012, 12:26 AM
There is an occasional attempt in Congress to introduce "arsenal laws," where an "arsenal" is a counterpart of the "high capacity magazine" (strange how it's always about number 10).

There is nothing at the national level, and I believe no state actually passed a law like that, but the "arsenal laws" are most likely what you picked up.

glock21fan
07-09-2012, 12:28 AM
I think we may all be on the "list" my last boss had roughly 300 firearms. Lol

Ripon83
07-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Didn't they just start requiring some new documentation of purchases of 5 or more of a certain type (black rifle isn't it) at the same time in "certain" states.....I thought it was the whole fast and furious reason......

Librarian
07-09-2012, 12:49 AM
Okay I'm thinking this is scuttlebutt, but a guy told me that if you own more than 10 guns you're on some so-called govt, fbi, doj, police list.
...
Anyone here can give this info credence?
Nope. No such list.

Didn't they just start requiring some new documentation of purchases of 5 or more of a certain type (black rifle isn't it) at the same time in "certain" states.....I thought it was the whole fast and furious reason......
This is true (2 or more) - CA, TX, NM and AZ: Abstract: The purpose of this information collection is to require Federal firearms licensees to report multiple sales or other dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of two or more rifles with the following characteristics: (a) Semi-automatic; (b) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 caliber); and (c) the ability to accept a detachable magazine, to the same person at one time or during any five consecutive business days. This requirement will apply only to Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) who are dealers and/or pawnbrokers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2011/pdf/2011-10355.pdf

sindominator
07-09-2012, 12:53 AM
It's usually the guy with only 1 AK-47 and extended clips that actually give me goosebumps.

I know a guy who has over 50 C&R's with hunting rifles. Mostly bolt action type. I always see or read about some hardcore Western guy with 100+ Colts and Winchesters. I think the FBI has the intelligences (chuckles) to really determine who tips the scales here. So I see no reason to have such a list. I think a list of the top 10 criminals per zipcode not behind bars should be the real effort to be focused. Or at least compile a list of all known possible terrorist to be sent to every airport.

(nothing agaisn't AKs) I have 2 "CA Legal" in my collection. But that's just the cold heart facts.

SilverTauron
07-09-2012, 1:01 AM
Even if you own one gun you're on a 'list' of sorts.ATF has a database called Etrace which tracks firearms whose serials are run by LE -including potentially innocent inquirys like a traffic stop-FFL bound book nspections and out of business surrender of 4473s,and guns imported into America after a certain date in the 80s.Its not as comprehensive as a state registry like your DROS,but the Feds know enough to track most firearms in America if they feel the need.

johnthomas
07-09-2012, 1:28 AM
I have a C&R license, I had to send out for a FBI security check, so I am pretty sure they know I own guns already.

gunsandrockets
07-09-2012, 2:12 AM
Okay I'm thinking this is scuttlebutt, but a guy told me that if you own more than 10 guns you're on some so-called govt, fbi, doj, police list. I couldn't find a reference for it anywhere as could be some urban legend. He didn't say that anyone would call or anything, but you'd just be on some so-called list. Not sure if anything would ever pop up if you were pulled over or anything like that, but thought I'd ask the community if anyone heard of anything like that.

Anyone here can give this info credence?

The only possible reference I know of is the the failed Brady Bill 2 proposal of 1994, which contained an "arsenal license" provision. The definition of an "arsenal" was 10 firearms or 1000 rounds of ammunition, the license fee was $300 every 3 years.

Immediately following the signing of the Clinton "assault-weapon" ban in 1994, the Brady Bill 2 was introduced by Senator Howard M. Metzenbaum and Representative Charles E. Schumer. Schumer infamously stated that if the AW ban was the camel's nose then the Brady Bill 2 was the rest of the camel.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57468202/discord-at-supreme-court-is-deep-and-personal/?tag=cbsnewsMainColumnArea

The book, American Terrorist, a biography of executed terrorist Timothy McVeigh, ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Terrorist

... seemed to suggest that McVeigh claimed the introduction of the Brady Bill 2 was the final straw which pushed McVeigh into war against his own government.

tenpercentfirearms
07-09-2012, 8:10 AM
Even if you own one gun you're on a 'list' of sorts.ATF has a database called Etrace which tracks firearms whose serials are run by LE -including potentially innocent inquirys like a traffic stop-FFL bound book nspections and out of business surrender of 4473s,and guns imported into America after a certain date in the 80s.Its not as comprehensive as a state registry like your DROS,but the Feds know enough to track most firearms in America if they feel the need.

I was going to ask for proof of this one, but I Googled it and this is most interesting.

https://www.atfonline.gov/etrace/

bubbapug1
07-09-2012, 8:14 AM
It's usually the guy with only 1 AK-47 and extended clips that actually give me goosebumps.

I think a list of the top 10 criminals per zipcode not behind bars should be the real effort to be focused. Or at least compile a list of all known possible terrorist to be sent to every airport.

(nothing agaisn't AKs) I have 2 "CA Legal" in my collection. But that's just the cold heart facts.

I think the only "list" that needs to be acted on is the list of members of congress. They are really the "true hardcore" criminals in our society.

wash
07-09-2012, 11:45 AM
I don't doubt that I'm on a list but the alphabet agencies are reluctant to talk to one another so I'm only one of millions and I doubt it will ever result in unwanted attention down the road.

If that ever changes, I hope they believe me when I tell them about that tragic boating accident I had a few weeks ago.

paul0660
07-09-2012, 11:47 AM
10 seems low, but certainly they can if they wish.

Just another reason to let that C&R lapse, and start over.

wash
07-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Or sell all your guns and start a paperweight collection...

ptoguy2002
07-09-2012, 11:59 AM
Cali RAW list - check
Cali 50BMG list - check
Cali AFS for handguns - check
Having bought guns at FFL's that later reported to have their books taken and copied - check
Multiple long gun reported on me - check
Other .gov stuff I won't talk about on internet - check
Starting in 2014 long gun reg - unavoidable

I think I'm on every list there is, did I miss one?
I suppose when they come for our guns, I'll be first.
I'll let you all know how it goes.

wash
07-09-2012, 12:04 PM
No fly list?

ClarenceBoddicker
07-09-2012, 12:08 PM
Yes, every firearm that has been purchased by or thru a FFL dealer with a Form 4473 since 1969 is on a Federal (ATF/FBI/NSA/CIA/Military/DHS, etc etc) list/database somewhere, which BTW violates the toothless section of the 1986 Machine Gun ban FOPA law that makes a registry of gun owners illegal. All 4473s must be retained by FFL dealers. Once they go out of business, they are required by law to send the forms to ATF. Since the 1980's ATF has been optically scanning these old forms into a computerized database. The 1998 NICS part of the 1993 Brady law has made things much easier for ATF as they get the info sent to them electronically. The only way to avoid having your name as a gun owner or your guns model & SN in a Federal database is to only buy guns cash & carry from a private party in the state you live in for handguns. Long guns can be bought out of state from a private party, as long as the laws of both states are followed. CA has outlawed cash & carry since 1991.

CA DOJ claims they only have a list of registered handguns, but DROS of long guns has been around for a long time. Even if they don't have the info for the long gun, they have the date, time & FFL info of when the DROS was done. So in effect they know you bought a long gun at that time.

ptoguy2002
07-09-2012, 12:22 PM
No fly list?
Nope, not that one (thank god).

bubbapug1
07-09-2012, 12:33 PM
If you worried about it buy some 80% lowers, sell your present guns...and disappear.

paul0660
07-09-2012, 12:39 PM
Nope, not that one (thank god).

I don't think they send you notice. You show up at the airport, NO FLY for you!

emy
07-09-2012, 12:48 PM
Only if your a straw buyer, and only when you buy 10 at a time.

paul0660
07-09-2012, 12:52 PM
Only if your a straw buyer, and only when you buy 10 at a time.


Good one.

radioman
07-09-2012, 12:54 PM
This list is news to me, could be FUD like 90% of all guns used in crime in Oakland come from Mexico.

phrogg111
07-09-2012, 1:02 PM
So OP here is wondering about terror watch lists?

Im told I got put on an ATF list when I was active duty army in Texas and bought a .22 pistol less than a week after the .38 I bought to carry.

I know I'm on a list for being a war vet and getting out of the Army. I got an honorable discharge, but I bet anything there's a few agencies monitoring my smart phone.

radioman
07-09-2012, 1:11 PM
So OP here is wondering about terror watch lists?

Im told I got put on an ATF list when I was active duty army in Texas and bought a .22 pistol less than a week after the .38 I bought to carry.

I know I'm on a list for being a war vet and getting out of the Army. I got an honorable discharge, but I bet anything there's a few agencies monitoring my smart phone.

If that is the case then that is the biggest pile of HS I have ever heard, you served your county with honor, why should you be put on a list?

wash
07-09-2012, 1:25 PM
Don't you recall the government study saying that veterans, survivalists and gun owners could be terrorists?

That came out shortly after Obama got in office I think.

kjgun
07-09-2012, 2:00 PM
So OP here is wondering about terror watch lists?


Not a terror watch list per se, but any list that might affect me or put a little marker that would make me more visible in some category. Don't need any 'special' attention when I'm just trying to live my life without extra harassment.

Bill Carson
07-09-2012, 2:03 PM
Okay I'm thinking this is scuttlebutt, but a guy told me that if you own more than 10 guns you're on some so-called govt, fbi, doj, police list. I couldn't find a reference for it anywhere as could be some urban legend. He didn't say that anyone would call or anything, but you'd just be on some so-called list. Not sure if anything would ever pop up if you were pulled over or anything like that, but thought I'd ask the community if anyone heard of anything like that.

Anyone here can give this info credence? Heck you are on that list if you have more than 10 posts on here.

kjgun
07-09-2012, 2:06 PM
dammit. I guess I will have to just buy more and more since I'm already on the list. Can't try to sell to keep me under 10. lmao

Rider1k
07-09-2012, 2:09 PM
Anything you do these days puts you on a list. Buy bulk food? Order survival type items? Buy bulk ammo? Use cash instead of plastic? Have a BOB set aside for emergencies? Fly your flag to show the love of your country? Own firearms? Use forums, The list goes on and on.... Frankly it's all just a little ridiculous.

SilverTauron
07-09-2012, 2:16 PM
The only way to avoid having your name as a gun owner or your guns model & SN in a Federal database is to only buy guns cash & carry from a private party in the state you live in for handguns. Long guns can be bought out of state from a private party, as long as the laws of both states are followed. CA has outlawed cash & carry since 1991.
.

This unfortunately isn't 100% accurate. Even if you buy a firearm face to face without going using a 4473, that is no guarantee the weapon isn't on record at the Etrace/National Tracing Center. YOU might get the gun without a 4473 on file, but that doesn't mean the previous owner didn't generate one at some point in the past. Note that repairs and alterations which go through an FFL can also generate a record as well.

Bottom line, we live in the year 2012. If the government wants your guns they'll know exactly where to knock.

CSACANNONEER
07-09-2012, 2:19 PM
I have more than 10 homebuilt guns with ZERO paper trail. Do they count? How would anyone know about them (except for me posting about them here)?

As far as lists go, I know I'm on a few. Once my name was published in an international shooting magazine, I quit worrying about "if" I am on a list because, I know I am.

forgiven
07-09-2012, 2:25 PM
The only possible reference I know of is the the failed Brady Bill 2 proposal of 1994, which contained an "arsenal license" provision. The definition of an "arsenal" was 10 firearms or 1000 rounds of ammunition, the license fee was $300 every 3 years.

Immediately following the signing of the Clinton "assault-weapon" ban in 1994, the Brady Bill 2 was introduced by Senator Howard M. Metzenbaum and Representative Charles E. Schumer. Schumer infamously stated that if the AW ban was the camel's nose then the Brady Bill 2 was the rest of the camel.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57468202/discord-at-supreme-court-is-deep-and-personal/?tag=cbsnewsMainColumnArea

The book, American Terrorist, a biography of executed terrorist Timothy McVeigh, ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Terrorist

... seemed to suggest that McVeigh claimed the introduction of the Brady Bill 2 was the final straw which pushed McVeigh into war against his own government.

Charles Schumer :17:

ClarenceBoddicker
07-09-2012, 2:58 PM
This unfortunately isn't 100% accurate. Even if you buy a firearm face to face without going using a 4473, that is no guarantee the weapon isn't on record at the Etrace/National Tracing Center. YOU might get the gun without a 4473 on file, but that doesn't mean the previous owner didn't generate one at some point in the past. Note that repairs and alterations which go through an FFL can also generate a record as well.

Bottom line, we live in the year 2012. If the government wants your guns they'll know exactly where to knock.

Yes, I meant to say that buying cash & carry will keep your name from being associated with the gun. Unless the gun was home built or a pre 1968 import that was not sold thru a dealer or pawned since then, it will be on file with the Feds. Gunsmiths can legally repair your gun & not enter it into their records if they complete the repair that same day.

Another thing for people who value their privacy to consider is the Feds also keep lists of people they suspect as being gun owners. If you buy ammo mail order than you are on the gun owner list. If you are a member of groups like the NRA, then you are a gun owner in the eyes of the Feds. If you subscribe to gun magazines like Shotgun News, Small Arms Review, etc then you are a gun owner. Having an account with places like GunBroker is also being a gun owner to the Feds. If you have ever been arrested for a weapons related crime, then you are a gun owner. All family members & relatives of known gun owners are also on the Feds subversive list. Etc Etc. Data is cheap to gather & store now. Domestic surveillance is a great make work project for the Feds & corrupt corporations in bed with them.

When the Feds demands citizens guns they will not have to knock on many doors. They will just freeze suspected gun owners bank accounts until they surrender their guns. People's boating accident fantasizes are pretty funny. How many days can they last without their debit or credit cards working?

Wernher von Browning
07-09-2012, 3:30 PM
There is an occasional attempt in Congress to introduce "arsenal laws," where an "arsenal" is a counterpart of the "high capacity magazine" (strange how it's always about number 10).

That's because they run out of fingers to count on, at 10.

Bill Clinton could count to 11. But not in polite company.

Wernher von Browning
07-09-2012, 3:38 PM
Ok, so here's a question.

Suppose I send an AR-15 lower out for anodizing (and the shop has to have an FFL to receive such a lower) does that go on a list? Logged in / logged out by the anodizer/FFL?

Dark Sky Solutions
07-09-2012, 3:44 PM
Ok, so here's a question.

Suppose I send an AR-15 lower out for anodizing (and the shop has to have an FFL to receive such a lower) does that go on a list? Logged in / logged out by the anodizer/FFL?

That is why u get it anodized as an 80 and do some touch up paint after u mil it out

Oceanbob
07-09-2012, 3:45 PM
With 400,000 million guns; 54 million hunters and the millions of collectors, sport shooters, reloaders and Patriots.....one thing is certain.

The're gonna need a lot more FBI guys........:D

Mesa Tactical
07-09-2012, 3:54 PM
If you're not already on some list somewhere in Washington, you're doing it wrong.

5thgen4runner
07-09-2012, 4:01 PM
Im on the organ donor list so when our leos invade my house and murder me for being on some other list. Some ******* on another list can have my liver. F this crap.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

paul0660
07-09-2012, 4:12 PM
you served your county with honor, why should you be put on a list?

I genuflect a lot, but vets are like the rest of us.


http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00011/FORT_HOOD_SHOOTING_11361e.jpg

I guess I should edit this.........Ft Hood murderer.

paul0660
07-09-2012, 4:14 PM
With 400,000 million guns; 54 million hunters and the millions of collectors, sport shooters, reloaders and Patriots.....one thing is certain.

The're gonna need a lot more FBI guys........:D

Or stop worrying about civilian casualties.


Again.

IVC
07-09-2012, 4:28 PM
Bill Clinton could count to 11. But not in polite company.

:rofl: Now, that's proper double entendre.

IVC
07-09-2012, 4:32 PM
With 400,000 million guns;

400 billion guns? Surely you jest.

phrogg111
07-09-2012, 4:40 PM
Ok, so here's a question.

Suppose I send an AR-15 lower out for anodizing (and the shop has to have an FFL to receive such a lower) does that go on a list? Logged in / logged out by the anodizer/FFL?


Yes, they're techincially a "gunsmith" with a 01 FFL - same one as selling firearms - and they record your lower receiver's serial number into their book by law. If they keep it overnight, you can guarantee your S/N is in their list.

Does that mean you will get in trouble for having it? No. It's probably not even in a computer yet.

tabrisnet
07-09-2012, 4:57 PM
Damn. I don't own enough guns yet.

nicki
07-09-2012, 6:16 PM
The lists don't mean anything until the government starts to use them and of course our government would never violate our rights.:rolleyes:

The reality is personal privacy is gone, we live under what I call "soft tyranny".

We get people who will post about list and what they can do to avoid being on these lists. My suggestion is rather than trying to avoid your government, you should instead invest your efforts into controlling your government.

Government should be treated like a 2 year old child and kept in it's place, otherwise it can grow and mutate into that devious adult child that will turn on you.

Nicki

Flopper
07-09-2012, 7:25 PM
I stopped worrying about lists long ago when I realized that information overload plus gov incompetency is a powerful weapon in liberty's arsenal.

Paul S
07-09-2012, 8:02 PM
Nope, not that one (thank god).

Oh..well, wait a minute and I'll make a call and fix that for ya! :D

alfred1222
07-09-2012, 8:24 PM
If you're not on a list than you're doing it wrong

tpc13
07-09-2012, 8:31 PM
No such list.....Cops don't care unless your doing something wrong..If you just own them and posses them then no one cares...Buy all you want..It could be that if you buy 10 at a time then maybe..but don't do that..

RMP91
07-09-2012, 8:34 PM
If you're not on a list than you're doing it wrong

:rofl2:

TKM
07-09-2012, 8:39 PM
Stupid noobs go on ignore list. It's true.

cmacjvan
07-09-2012, 8:41 PM
Its called NCIS.....they know how many guns you have purchased in the past 15 or 20 years, but they have no serial numbers or what type of guns you have......so, when they knock on your door give them all the old rusted relics.

tenpercentfirearms
07-09-2012, 8:45 PM
Its called NCIS.....they know how many guns you have purchased in the past 15 or 20 years, but they have no serial numbers or what type of guns you have......so, when they knock on your door give them all the old rusted relics.

This might have been said in jest, but the premise cracks me up. No one wants to be a on a list so they can hide when they come door to door for guns. If someone is going to come door to door for guns, you shouldn't be hiding, you should be fighting! Do people really think they are just going to take the guns on the list and bid you adieu? You are going to a concentration camp whether they get all of your guns or not.

Not to mention the people that seem so proud they have "nothing traceable" buy a hunting license and deer tag every year. LOL. They will never use that database. :rolleyes:

Solidux
07-09-2012, 11:31 PM
Boats are very unstable these days...

Upstanding Black Citizen
07-10-2012, 1:02 AM
This might have been said in jest, but the premise cracks me up. No one wants to be a on a list so they can hide when they come door to door for guns. If someone is going to come door to door for guns, you shouldn't be hiding, you should be fighting! Do people really think they are just going to take the guns on the list and bid you adieu? You are going to a concentration camp whether they get all of your guns or not.

Not to mention the people that seem so proud they have "nothing traceable" buy a hunting license and deer tag every year. LOL. They will never use that database. :rolleyes:

This. All of it.

I'm not going to bother trying to stay off lists. If anything, voluntarily registering guns lets me use the dismissive "don't worry it's papered." line to keep the peace. I'd also rather not try to explain to an uninformed, possibly prejudiced officer how my hypothetical unregistered Off-list lower AK is legal after the long gun registry kicks in. The chance of him not believing me and putting me in jail until the mess is sorted out is too high, and not worth it.

nicki
07-10-2012, 1:56 AM
This. All of it.

I'm not going to bother trying to stay off lists. If anything, voluntarily registering guns lets me use the dismissive "don't worry it's papered." line to keep the peace. I'd also rather not try to explain to an uninformed, possibly prejudiced officer how my hypothetical unregistered Off-list lower AK is legal after the long gun registry kicks in. The chance of him not believing me and putting me in jail until the mess is sorted out is too high, and not worth it.

Your screen ID says alot about you and I would encourage you to share with us your perspective on many issues, especially interactions with the police.

Many here are doing dog work on the roots on gun laws(racism) and while we can read books, people who have been around and are seasoned can fill us in on details that may not have been recorded in the history books.

BTW, what part of Cali are you in, your screen name doesn't indicate what region you are in. There are many people on this board doing legwork that might like to touch base with you for your insight.

Nicki

advocatusdiaboli
07-10-2012, 7:43 AM
Only if your a straw buyer, and only when you buy 10 at a time.

I believe they cannot prove you a straw buyer unless you turn around and sell reasonably quickly or have evidence you intended to purchase for immediate or near-immediate resales correct?

advocatusdiaboli
07-10-2012, 7:46 AM
Cops don't care unless your doing something wrong

A bit off topic, but this post led me there...
Tell that to the guys being detained for unwarranted and incorrect AW suspicion like the bullet button or mistaking a muzzle brake for suppressor. There are bad cops out there who harass law-abiding gun owners.

curtisfong
07-10-2012, 9:07 AM
Cops don't care unless your doing something wrong.

Fail.

frankm
07-10-2012, 9:10 AM
You're all on the list, get with it.

1859sharps
07-10-2012, 9:25 AM
Not to mention the people that seem so proud they have "nothing traceable" buy a hunting license and deer tag every year. LOL. They will never use that database. :rolleyes:

don't forget the credit card records from buying ammunition at wally world or from some online retailer to restock your reloading components.

The level of effort to be "invisible" FAR exceeds 99.99999% of the populations willingness to put out the effort.

The government doesn't need a centralized database to figure out if you own a gun or not. If they want to find out if you have a gun or not, it's not rocket science to do so.

jb7706
07-10-2012, 10:17 AM
Dang, I'm on ANOTHER list? Too bad it's a list of people numbered only in the millions or I might stand out.

OlderThanDirt
07-10-2012, 10:55 AM
With 400,000 million guns; 54 million hunters and the millions of collectors, sport shooters, reloaders and Patriots.....one thing is certain.

The're gonna need a lot more FBI guys........:D

No, they need to hire more IRS agents (like the 3,000 they are hiring for "health care" compliance). The road to any massive sort of gun control will not be by physical force, it will be through the tax code. Non-compliance will result in the loss of money and freedom. The IRS will be able to freeze your assets (starve you into compliance), limit your freedom of movement (confiscation of passport), and if necessary litigate you into insolvency. No need for that messy "cold dead hands" sort of thing, although major offenders may make Obama's special list and have an up close and personal encounter with a Predator drone. ;):TFH:;):TFH:;)

LAWABIDINGCITIZEN
07-10-2012, 11:19 AM
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Hollerith.html

No worries. After all, what happened in the past can't possibly happen here.......

Saym14
07-10-2012, 11:24 AM
I must be on it I saw black helicopters yesterday !!!

vincewarde
07-10-2012, 12:11 PM
OK, let's be reasonable and rational here.......

ATF don't have a computerized list of every gun and who owns it. We know this because FFLs will scream bloody murder if they try to copy all their 4473s or the bound books. Witness the Anchorage AK incident that took place recently.

As for FFLs that have gone out of business, this would be much more do-able, however this would not be a comprehensive list.

What would be the much easier to achieve is a list of gun owners. This is what they are most likely to have. It would be much easier to compile "under the radar". As others have pointed out, this information is submitted electronically. Capturing it would be easy. Very few people would have to know about it - so they might have a list of those who have passed NICS test, but I do not believe it gives them a firearm specific list.

F&F gives us a great deal of incite here. Not all ATF employees can be counted upon to keep quit. Even inputting the records of closed FFLs (as opposed to putting them on microfilm or digital equivalent) would be risky. Eventually someone would talk. Simply capturing NICS data and directing it to a database might very well be something they could keep hidden.

Of course, if you have a C&R license (as I do) they definitely know about you.



Yes, every firearm that has been purchased by or thru a FFL dealer with a Form 4473 since 1969 is on a Federal (ATF/FBI/NSA/CIA/Military/DHS, etc etc) list/database somewhere, which BTW violates the toothless section of the 1986 Machine Gun ban FOPA law that makes a registry of gun owners illegal. All 4473s must be retained by FFL dealers. Once they go out of business, they are required by law to send the forms to ATF. Since the 1980's ATF has been optically scanning these old forms into a computerized database. The 1998 NICS part of the 1993 Brady law has made things much easier for ATF as they get the info sent to them electronically. The only way to avoid having your name as a gun owner or your guns model & SN in a Federal database is to only buy guns cash & carry from a private party in the state you live in for handguns. Long guns can be bought out of state from a private party, as long as the laws of both states are followed. CA has outlawed cash & carry since 1991.

CA DOJ claims they only have a list of registered handguns, but DROS of long guns has been around for a long time. Even if they don't have the info for the long gun, they have the date, time & FFL info of when the DROS was done. So in effect they know you bought a long gun at that time.

SilverTauron
07-10-2012, 1:18 PM
OK, let's be reasonable and rational here.......

ATF don't have a computerized list of every gun and who owns it. We know this because FFLs will scream bloody murder if they try to copy all their 4473s or the bound books. Witness the Anchorage AK incident that took place recently.
As for FFLs that have gone out of business, this would be much more do-able, however this would not be a comprehensive list.

Being rational and reasonable, not every FFL will scream bloody murder at the act of an ATF scan of the bound book. The Sun will blow up before Cabelas or Scheels publicly denounces the ATF for doing that , and even smaller shops run by FFL holders may agree with government intervention. Not all gun dealers are RKBA gun ho 2A supporters.

Push comes to shove , the ATF can simply lie;" We're scanning the bound book incident to an open case,etc." . How would the gun dealer know he's being decieved?

Remember that state purchase and ownership records are also shared with the ATF for inclusion into the Etrace/NTC system. Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey have publicly stated they provide gun ownership data to the ATF voluntarily for inclusion into their database, and there is little reason to doubt that the California DOJ has done the same with the DROS records on the QT.

Notice im not spreading FUD or trying to incite some kind of panic. There factually is a registry called Etrace/National Tracing Center, and its factually run by the ATF in violation of current Federal law. The ATF's justification memo for disobeying Congress on the 1986 FOPA is that because the National Tracing Center was established as a paper based record before the enactment of the law, its thus 'grandfathered' in . Ironic eh?

cruising7388
07-10-2012, 1:34 PM
Didn't they just start requiring some new documentation of purchases of 5 or more of a certain type (black rifle isn't it) at the same time in "certain" states.....I thought it was the whole fast and furious reason......

It was but I don't think it ever got off the ground.

tenpercentfirearms
07-10-2012, 10:58 PM
Being rational and reasonable, not every FFL will scream bloody murder at the act of an ATF scan of the bound book. The Sun will blow up before Cabelas or Scheels publicly denounces the ATF for doing that , and even smaller shops run by FFL holders may agree with government intervention. Not all gun dealers are RKBA gun ho 2A supporters. Any link to these handy portable scanners ATF agents lug around with them? Do they scan them on a flatbed sheet by sheet since the bound book is supposed to be bound?

Any actual evidence the ATF is scanning bound books or does it just sound big brotherish and thus makes it evidence of the Blue Helmet Invasion? Any evidence the ATF is actually scanning old turned in bound books for that matter?

I would like to know more.

jimx
07-11-2012, 7:10 AM
You are going to a concentration camp whether they get all of your guns or not.



I miss SAS

ptoguy2002
07-11-2012, 7:59 AM
Any link to these handy portable scanners ATF agents lug around with them? Do they scan them on a flatbed sheet by sheet since the bound book is supposed to be bound?

Any actual evidence the ATF is scanning bound books or does it just sound big brotherish and thus makes it evidence of the Blue Helmet Invasion? Any evidence the ATF is actually scanning old turned in bound books for that matter?

I would like to know more.

Ade's gun shop, as reported here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=112103
See post 43 for supposed 1st hand report.
Doesn't mention any scanning, but what else would they do if they actually took the book?

There was also the recent bit about an FFL in Alaska throwing a fit because the ATF wanted his books.

boxcab
07-11-2012, 10:02 AM
10 guns = Bronze ATF list

50 Guns = Silver ATF list

100 Guns = Gold ATF list

250 Guns = Platinum ATF list and a special commemerative gift!

ptoguy2002
07-11-2012, 6:14 PM
10 guns = Bronze ATF list

50 Guns = Silver ATF list

100 Guns = Gold ATF list

250 Guns = Platinum ATF list and a special commemerative gift!

Ha ha.
[/thread]

.

Lugiahua
07-11-2012, 6:19 PM
No such list.....Cops don't care unless your doing something wrong..If you just own them and posses them then no one cares...Buy all you want..It could be that if you buy 10 at a time then maybe..but don't do that..

Not true, remember that guy got arrest for "illegal carrying concealed handgun" while driving with a empty shotgun?


I once got a police visit only because posted some range pics of me holding a shotgun.

winslowgirl
07-12-2012, 2:37 AM
I think the OP may be alluding to the following.

There was a discussion document, recently published I think, by the DHS. In it, among other things, the question is pondered (paraphrasing): "Who, in the event of widespread civil unrest might reasonably be considered a serious potential threat to public order and national security?"

Now I believe that the term "domestic terrorists" MAY have been bandied about in general discussion but I'm not certain. Anyway, in the context of the discussion, as I recall it, the bottom line was who should those responsible for state security, raid or round up if TSHTF?

A list is provided of the types or classes of individuals and groups possessing characteristics (profiles) indicating they would/might be capable of nefarious doings.

Among those deemed suspect were recently returned veterans, gun owners (generally), and in particular the subset of owners of multiple weapons. As best I recall it, it seemed that this subset was further subdivided into those who were preppers and those who were not.

What I came away with after the briefest read of this report, was that the very act of owning a gun made the owner a security risk, and potentially an enemy of the state.

The report seemed to be suggesting that a citizen's possession of multiple guns in and of itself, evinced a radical political outlook and attitude hostile to legitimate authority, that could fuel insurrection and lead to acts of terrorism against the state in times of social strife. Gun owners, in the governments view, were synonymous with "right wing extremists".


If you were a veteran of recent wars AND an owner of several weapons, AND a prepper, . . well, God help you, for the Government believes you are more likely than not, a far-right unstable nut job, capable of just about anything.

It seems that those who have donned the uniform of their country and put themselves in harms way to protect America, are among those most feared by its government. That is a sad state of affairs.

MrEd
07-12-2012, 3:20 AM
We all are on so many lists these days . Everyone tracks us . From your cell phone usage , your purchasing habit , your web browsing , the tv channel you watch and so many more . These are the times we live in .
The reality is that the government does not need to compile any list anymore because they can obtain so much more information on any one of us from the private sector .