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creekside
07-07-2012, 1:11 AM
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/323185_4216953824372_1627084866_o.jpg

Seen tonight on a Bay Area Safeway store door.

Advertising that Safeway is a gun free zone makes the store more attractive to violent criminals, especially at night and near a freeway. Yesterday there was a daylight armed robbery just down the street.

Do they still have their safe serviced by armored car crews? If so, they are hypocrites as well as opposed to civil rights.

I no longer feel safe shopping at Safeway, let alone getting cash or using the ATM.

Anyone else seen these? Please voice your concerns politely here (http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Contact-Us.page).

Also wondering if this applies to off and on duty peace officers ...

NorCalDustin
07-07-2012, 1:26 AM
Is this a Safeway wide thing? Or just one safeway?

Sir Stunna Lot
07-07-2012, 2:02 AM
wouldnt stop me from carrying, cuz im sure criminals feel the same way

five.five-six
07-07-2012, 2:11 AM
"No guns allowed"
I won't be shopping in your stores so long as this policy is in effect. My family and I are much safer in locations where criminals are not assured that their victims will not be armed.

Spclist
07-07-2012, 2:38 AM
Having only recently returned from a family emergency out of state, I found these stickers in place at my local supermarket as well.
I didn't know if its because a BIGBUCKS COFFEE is just inside the doorway, or not.

NoJoke
07-07-2012, 6:57 AM
I used this form:
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop

gschoelles
07-07-2012, 7:07 AM
California CCW Licenses are not effected by business signage. Carry at will!

epilepticninja
07-07-2012, 7:34 AM
California CCW Licenses are not effected by business signage. Carry at will!

Not to get into a huge argument on this, but I thought if it was posted by a private business, you weren't allowed to CCW on their property. Just trying to clarify.

Demonicspire
07-07-2012, 7:40 AM
I don't approve, but it is private property, and just as I wouldn't want someone to carry onto my property against my will, I won't carry onto theirs. Just vote with your dollar, and buy from stores who are more friendly to carrying. I'm only really bugged by restrictions on carrying in public/government owned spaces. Private means private.

dwtt
07-07-2012, 8:29 AM
I didn't see those signs in the Safeway stores in Virginia.

goodlookin1
07-07-2012, 8:56 AM
Not to get into a huge argument on this, but I thought if it was posted by a private business, you weren't allowed to CCW on their property. Just trying to clarify.

You are not criminally liable if you do, but they can remove you from their property if you are made. Furthermore, since CA is discretionary carry, it might get back to your issuing officer and he might decide to revoke your permit since you do not follow the rules.

curtisfong
07-07-2012, 8:56 AM
Not to get into a huge argument on this, but I thought if it was posted by a private business, you weren't allowed to CCW on their property. Just trying to clarify.

What do you mean by "allowed"?

If you mean you'll just get escorted off the premises if you accidentally open carry, then you are correct.

Backcountry
07-07-2012, 9:16 AM
Screw 'em... I carried in Safeway in Rancho Cordova yesterday and it had the same sign on the door.

dustoff31
07-07-2012, 9:31 AM
You are not criminally liable if you do, but they can remove you from their property if you are made. Furthermore, since CA is discretionary carry, it might get back to your issuing officer and he might decide to revoke your permit since you do not follow the rules.

Good Answer.

I would only add that you are not liable on any gun related charges, but it is a tresspass. Trespassing is a crime. If one doesn't leave when told to, or returns after being told to leave, they may be arrested for trespassing.

MaHoTex
07-07-2012, 10:02 AM
Sign? What sign? I didn't see any sign. :shrug:

Tarn_Helm
07-07-2012, 10:04 AM
Good Answer.

I would only add that you are not liable on any gun related charges, but it is a tresspass. Trespassing is a crime. If one doesn't leave when told to, or returns after being told to leave, they may be arrested for trespassing.

I don't have time to do it right now, but it would be interesting to follow the money and see who owns Safeway.

Probably a big supporter of the side of the political aisle that most consistently opposes 2nd amendment rights.

:cool:

gunsmith
07-07-2012, 10:06 AM
I've never see any posted safeway in Nevada, but I would totally ignore it.

dustoff31
07-07-2012, 10:19 AM
I don't have time to do it right now, but it would be interesting to follow the money and see who owns Safeway.

Probably a big supporter of the side of the political aisle that most consistently opposes 2nd amendment rights.

:cool:

I don't know. I haven't see any signs at Safeway's here in AZ. A few other posters have said the same where they live.

It may be just a local thing.

grammaton76
07-07-2012, 10:42 AM
Do the stickers look the same? Because if so, there's probably some pack of fools running around to the various stores and asking the manager, "Can we put this sign in your window? Because it'll make everyone safe!"

DrDavid
07-07-2012, 10:47 AM
Sign? What sign?

Munk
07-07-2012, 10:49 AM
Do the stickers look the same? Because if so, there's probably some pack of fools running around to the various stores and asking the manager, "Can we put this sign in your window? Because it'll make everyone safe!"

If the stickers are inconsistent with the store's other signage, that's a very real possibility. This may not be an official company sticker.

ClarenceBoddicker
07-07-2012, 11:10 AM
It wouldn't surprise me one bit. Did you not notice the other sign by the door that states that Safeway is a union shop/store? All unions even LE & gun manufacture workers ones are 100% anti-2A. To me it's highly hypocritical for a gun owner to belong to any union or knowingly support unions by buying products that help pay for them. I make a very conscious effort to avoid supporting any unions.

IVC
07-07-2012, 11:23 AM
I don't approve, but it is private property, and just as I wouldn't want someone to carry onto my property against my will, I won't carry onto theirs.
...
Private means private.

This is an oversimplification. Love it or hate it, there is a concept of "publicly accessible private property." If it was treated the same as the restricted private property, we could have GFSZ on steroids. One would have to have a detailed map of all property boundaries, know who all the owners are and keep track of all the arbitrary rules set up by the owners.

Imagine the owner of a parking lot also owning a part of the sidewalk, then deciding to have a "no flip flops" rule. You walk by minding your own business and get arrested for "violation of rules." Ignorance is no excuse, so off you go to face the DA.

If you want private-private, you can set up fencing and limit the access any way you want. However, the burden is on you to say "sorry, you can't enter."

As a side issue, the GFSZ is so malicious precisely because it intentionally applies private-private concept to the public-private property (in case of government it's public-public, but it's the same concept). It doesn't make schools safer, but it certainly creates a legal minefield as it is a felony.

Teacher Sp Ed
07-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Went to my Safeway in Alameda today and saw the sign. Was hoping that Alameda was getting ready to relax their carry laws and Safeway was preemptively taking stance.

NotEnufGarage
07-07-2012, 11:52 AM
I am a long time, regular shopper at Safeway. I'm going to check my store for signs today and if I see any, I'll report back. Also, if they appear different from the rest of the signage in the store, I'll check with the manager and see if they are not official Safeway policy, in which case I'll ask him/her to remove them.

If it is official policy, I think an organized boycott is in order, statewide.

Decoligny
07-07-2012, 11:54 AM
I don't approve, but it is private property, and just as I wouldn't want someone to carry onto my property against my will, I won't carry onto theirs. Just vote with your dollar, and buy from stores who are more friendly to carrying. I'm only really bugged by restrictions on carrying in public/government owned spaces. Private means private.

And you migh not want any men wearing nylons and women's thong panties on you private property either. But until you see it, it is none of your business. Private means private, and concealed means concealed.

Gray Peterson
07-07-2012, 11:57 AM
Some idiot must have UOC'd a rifle into that particular store.

NotEnufGarage
07-07-2012, 12:24 PM
Some idiot must have UOC'd a rifle into that particular store.

It's more widespread than just 1 store according to other posts.

We need to determine just how widespread it actually is, though.

glock21fan
07-07-2012, 12:31 PM
I saw one in Vegas at the regal cinema on the strip.

Gray Peterson
07-07-2012, 12:34 PM
It's more widespread than just 1 store according to other posts.

We need to determine just how widespread it actually is, though.

Up here in Washington, we don't have any signs. Might be a district manager going off his rocker...

NotEnufGarage
07-07-2012, 1:07 PM
Up here in Washington, we don't have any signs. Might be a district manager going off his rocker...

I'll try to find out.. It might, as someone suggested, be some outside group that put the signs up without Safeway's knowledge.. Who knows?

Tiberius
07-07-2012, 1:07 PM
I for one am glad that the signs are there. Because with that sign, we can be sure there will be no guns in the store. I just wish they would another sign saying "No Crimes Allowed" too.

Jeez, now that I think of it, why don't we just add a "No Crimes Allowed" sign in front of every city? Crime problem solved, police disbanded, instantly.

huntercf
07-07-2012, 1:09 PM
Up here in Washington, we don't have any signs. Might be a district manager going off his rocker...

I'm in WA on vacation, I haven't seen one in the tri-cities but I'll try and check. I did send them a letter from a link in an above post stating I won't be shopping in their stores (this includes Vons) because they want my family to be victims.

Paladin
07-07-2012, 1:55 PM
I saw this for the first time on a Safeway store in Oakland about 3 weeks ago and since I regularly shop at Safeways, I'm thinking it must have been added w/in the last month or two, at most.

BTW the sticker is small: only about 2" high x 5" wide.

And, no, you do not "screw them" by ignoring the sign. You "screw them" by telling the manager that you will stop shopping at Safeways from now on since they require you to be an unarmed victim should anything happen and tell them you will tell all your friends about this and then stop shopping there!

Luckys and many other grocery stores/supermarkets will be happy to take Safeway's business.

t0kie
07-07-2012, 2:34 PM
Hm, yes indeed I'll try to avoid spill my coins to stores that doesn't support 2A (I didn't go there for my reg. grocery anyway).
By the way, does anyone know if Trader's Joe or Whole Foods are doing it also?

Paladin
07-07-2012, 2:39 PM
I used this form:
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop

Thanks! Just left a comment. Why disarm those who have gone thru background checks and cleared by a sheriff???

Here's a pic of the sign:

DrDavid
07-07-2012, 2:55 PM
Here's my thought.. Concealed is concealed. Just carry anyways!

But, ask them why their armored car crew needs guns if no one else requires one...

Paladin
07-07-2012, 2:59 PM
Here's my thought.. Concealed is concealed. Just carry anyways!
What a great idea: give your money to a business that is against you legally carrying a firearm to defend yourself.... :rolleyes:

jimh
07-07-2012, 4:09 PM
signs mean nothing in Ca, there is no penal code restricting it.

NoJoke
07-07-2012, 4:31 PM
All this speculating is interesting, but shouldn't we all take the time to explain things to safeway?

CSDGuy
07-07-2012, 4:31 PM
While there is not Penal Code restricting it, if they ask you to leave, you must because if you do not, you will be trespassing, and if you're armed, that could also be an "armed criminal action" and that is not a good place to be.

creekside
07-07-2012, 4:55 PM
I saw this for the first time on a Safeway store in Oakland about 3 weeks ago and since I regularly shop at Safeways, I'm thinking it must have been added w/in the last month or two, at most.

BTW the sticker is small: only about 2" high x 5" wide.

Luckys and many other grocery stores/supermarkets will be happy to take Safeway's business.

That may be the best answer. Here's what I sent to Safeway this afternoon:

At your Safeway store at ... in San Jose, I saw new signs on the doors that read "No Firearms Allowed."

I work as a ... instructor and ... manager. I professionally observe that posting such signs creates new risks for your employees, contractors and customers.

Criminals (who unlawfully carry firearms) are emboldened in breaking the law in your premises because they no longer have to fear that a law-abiding person might be armed within.

The thought process of a criminal is somewhat like this -- "No Guns... really? that means I don't have to afraid of my robbery being interrupted? I can do whatever I want? Cool!"

This means more robberies, longer duration robberies, the increased possibility of "takeover" robberies and hostage scenarios, and last but not least, an escalation from taking of goods and property to inflicting violence on customers and employees.

For the last several years, I have been involved in training both armed and unarmed employees to survive armed robbery scenarios. The new risk created by declaring a "Guns Free Zone" is very real. Consider that retail clerks and security officers are among the top ten professions at risk for being the victims of homicide on the job, typically in connection with a botched robbery. I know of a local case in Fremont where a completely compliant cashier was shot "accidentally" by a robber. Fortunately, he survived.

CAL-OSHA's own guidelines for preventing late-night retail store violence (link below) recommend "Removing clutter, obstructions and signs from the windows so that an unobstructed view of the store counter and/or cash register exists." They do NOT recommend posting any signage with respect to firearms, or setting policies regarding firearms in the store.

A day before I observed this sign, an armed robbery took place at a nearby store in San Jose. "Crews" of armed robbers commit crimes against retail stores, especially those which are open late at night and near freeways -- and the ... location is both.

Does your sign also apply to armored car crews and armed security officers carrying in compliance with California state law? Does your sign apply to those who have been issued a concealed weapons permit by a local law enforcement agency? Does your sign apply to on-duty and off-duty peace officers?

Posting "we're disarmed" signage is a horribly misguided and dangerous policy and I am asking that your corporate security management carefully consider and then rescind it.

In the meantime, I will not expose myself to greater risks by shopping at Safeway stores until this dangerous policy is corrected. Note that as I do not have a concealed weapons permit, I do not carry firearms except in line of duty -- but I am not interested in serving as a bullet trap for a hardened criminal either.

You are within your legal rights as a company to post such signage. I am within my rights as a consumer to shop elsewhere, and to warn others for their own safety to do the same.

Thank you.

References:

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/worksecurity.html

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/work_hom.pdf

http://ifpo.org/articlebank/death_by_homicide.html

VAReact
07-07-2012, 5:10 PM
Good Afternoon,

It has come to my attention that Safeway has posted a "no firearms" sign in at least one of its San Jose, CA area stores. I do not agree with this policy personally and believe it makes any shopping experience at Safeway stores less -not more -safe. Therefore, I am making the decision not to shop at Safeway stores (Vons) any further until I hear this signage has been removed. Thank you.

Oracle01
07-07-2012, 5:14 PM
Aren't there sign codes for verbiage and size of lettering. As one who worked for the State of Cal. for fifteen years, I would be surprised if there weren't.

G17GUY
07-07-2012, 5:19 PM
signs mean nothing in Ca, there is no penal code restricting it.

Not after this thread.

IdahoF350
07-07-2012, 5:22 PM
That may be the best answer. Here's what I sent to Safeway this afternoon:

At your Safeway store at ... in San Jose, I saw new signs on the doors that read "No Firearms Allowed."

I work as a ... instructor and ... manager. I professionally observe that posting such signs creates new risks for your employees, contractors and customers.

Criminals (who unlawfully carry firearms) are emboldened in breaking the law in your premises because they no longer have to fear that a law-abiding person might be armed within.

The thought process of a criminal is somewhat like this -- "No Guns... really? that means I don't have to afraid of my robbery being interrupted? I can do whatever I want? Cool!"

This means more robberies, longer duration robberies, the increased possibility of "takeover" robberies and hostage scenarios, and last but not least, an escalation from taking of goods and property to inflicting violence on customers and employees.

For the last several years, I have been involved in training both armed and unarmed employees to survive armed robbery scenarios. The new risk created by declaring a "Guns Free Zone" is very real. Consider that retail clerks and security officers are among the top ten professions at risk for being the victims of homicide on the job, typically in connection with a botched robbery. I know of a local case in Fremont where a completely compliant cashier was shot "accidentally" by a robber. Fortunately, he survived.

CAL-OSHA's own guidelines for preventing late-night retail store violence (link below) recommend "Removing clutter, obstructions and signs from the windows so that an unobstructed view of the store counter and/or cash register exists." They do NOT recommend posting any signage with respect to firearms, or setting policies regarding firearms in the store.

A day before I observed this sign, an armed robbery took place at a nearby store in San Jose. "Crews" of armed robbers commit crimes against retail stores, especially those which are open late at night and near freeways -- and the ... location is both.

Does your sign also apply to armored car crews and armed security officers carrying in compliance with California state law? Does your sign apply to those who have been issued a concealed weapons permit by a local law enforcement agency? Does your sign apply to on-duty and off-duty peace officers?

Posting "we're disarmed" signage is a horribly misguided and dangerous policy and I am asking that your corporate security management carefully consider and then rescind it.

In the meantime, I will not expose myself to greater risks by shopping at Safeway stores until this dangerous policy is corrected. Note that as I do not have a concealed weapons permit, I do not carry firearms except in line of duty -- but I am not interested in serving as a bullet trap for a hardened criminal either.

You are within your legal rights as a company to post such signage. I am within my rights as a consumer to shop elsewhere, and to warn others for their own safety to do the same.

Thank you.

References:

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/worksecurity.html

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/work_hom.pdf

http://ifpo.org/articlebank/death_by_homicide.html

Well put. I'll try to keep a look out at local stores, but I think my local Winco has a big no guns allowed sign. And it's hood rat heaven there, only shop there in the daylight.

creekside
07-07-2012, 5:39 PM
Not after this thread.

Thought about that. I've seen similar signage at movie theaters, arenas and stadiums (but some of these are public buildings anyway), and other entertainment venues. I have a choice about patronizing these establishments, and mostly choose not to.

I've got no choice but to shop for groceries in order to eat, and some of us work really weird hours -- which are also the perfect hours for armed robbery.

Safeway picked this fight by posting the signage.

This strikes at the heart of what is a "public place" -- because not being able to have a firearm in the store means not having any protection in the parking lot. We're up against the death of a thousand cuts.

The issue of "cops can carry but CCW permit holders licensed by the cops cannot" needs to be settled sometime or another.

If petitioners on private property have a 1st Amendment right to political speech, we should have a 2nd Amendment right in the same places to protect our lives from criminal attack.

My belief that this endangers lives is not rhetoric -- it's facts as real as the chill of the morgue.

shooting4life
07-07-2012, 5:49 PM
Saw the same sign yesterday at the Safeway in daville. Will be shopping at luckys now.

JB-Norcal
07-07-2012, 6:06 PM
Please don't let you money NOT speak for you.

taguin
07-07-2012, 6:24 PM
Seen the same lame sign in Rivermark Safeway Santa Clara store.

javalos
07-07-2012, 6:54 PM
The sign is another way of saying to criminals: "Come and get it!"

decepticon6551
07-07-2012, 7:24 PM
Went to my Safeway in Alameda today and saw the sign. Was hoping that Alameda was getting ready to relax their carry laws and Safeway was preemptively taking stance.

Wasn't the South Shore Center (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/03/local/la-me-oakland-college-shooting-20120403), was it? Seems pretty hypocritical if it was. I'm not trying to thread jack, but I figure that staff would have a clear understanding of what can happen in a gun free zone.

cranemech
07-07-2012, 7:27 PM
Since this seems to be a recent development, I wonder if it has to do with this story (http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2012/06/21/safeway-shooter-released-no-charges-filed)

From the article:

YAKIMA, Wash. -- The man arrested in the shooting of another man in a Yakima supermarket parking lot last week was released late Wednesday evening with no charges filed, pending further investigation by county prosecutors.

Anastacio Lepe, 37, was arrested Saturday after turning himself in to authorities. Authorities say the Harrah man shot Jaime A. Partida, 25, in the Safeway parking lot off North Fifth Avenue on June 14, reportedly over a dispute about a stolen cellphone. Lepe's attorney said his client believed Partida was pulling a gun on him.

Lepe, who has a concealed weapons permit and no previous criminal record, shot Partida twice, once in the arm and once in the side, before fleeing the scene.

Safeway seems to have a conflicted firearms policy. While researching the policy the only thing I could find were responses from Safeway to Washington OC'ers back in 2009.

One e-mail response said that firearms are prohibited at any time and there are signs posted. (http://forun.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?53974-Email-from-Safeway)

The other email response stated that firearms are allowed in the stores in accordance with local state laws. Here is a link (http://www.lowcountrypatriots.comwww.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?99121-Safeway-Open-cary-policy-letter), see post #16 to download the letter dated May 10,2010.

Maybe someone will get an updated response regarding the Safeway firearms policy and can share the information.

decepticon6551
07-07-2012, 8:05 PM
I saw this for the first time on a Safeway store in Oakland about 3 weeks ago and since I regularly shop at Safeways, I'm thinking it must have been added w/in the last month or two, at most.

BTW the sticker is small: only about 2" high x 5" wide.

And, no, you do not "screw them" by ignoring the sign. You "screw them" by telling the manager that you will stop shopping at Safeways from now on since they require you to be an unarmed victim should anything happen and tell them you will tell all your friends about this and then stop shopping there!

Luckys and many other grocery stores/supermarkets will be happy to take Safeway's business.

Agree on all counts.

I'll add (after being a retail manager for many years) calling a company's customer service number, usually on the back of the receipt, typically is what gets the most corporate attention. Store Managers communicating upward usually only gets the attention of their immediate supervisor, and even then only when they're not busy handling other issues.

77bawls
07-07-2012, 8:12 PM
I'll just continue to use Raleys.

General
07-07-2012, 8:21 PM
Just used the form. Let them know, maybe they just don't understand.
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop

redcliff
07-07-2012, 9:05 PM
The most dangerous parking lot in our town is at a Safeway near several rescue missions and halfway houses. I'll have to check for signs next time I go in there, but I"ll continue carrying there regardless.

Paladin
07-08-2012, 6:01 AM
I'll add (after being a retail manager for many years) calling a company's customer service number, usually on the back of the receipt, typically is what gets the most corporate attention. Store Managers communicating upward usually only gets the attention of their immediate supervisor, and even then only when they're not busy handling other issues.

Yep, did the equivalent by sending a message via
I used this form:
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop
I encourage all CGNers do the same.

If they bring up any FUD re. how "civilians" are "unqualified" to defend themselves in public w/guns, tell them 41 of 50 states are Shall Issue and haven't had any major problems and every state from the Mississippi River west to the Pacific Ocean is Shall Issue (or better), except for CA, and none of them are trying to switch back.

I used to keep a list of CCWers/LTCers using their HGNs in self-defense, but stopped a year and a half ago after I ran into a word limit for posts. The list is still linked in my sig line and here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2357063#post2357063

I particularly like the video of the elderly man (72 y.o.) who saved the woman (Ms. Cordova) being stabbed by her ex-. If he hadn't showed up as fast as he did, she would be dead. Instead her ex- is dead. Video takes ~12 sec to start and the audio and video are slightly out of sync:
soZT__WQKsM

Just a couple of weeks ago in Vallejo a LTCer stopped an armed robber in a Subway restaurant:
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/2012/california-permit-holder-thwarts-armed-robbery,-the-vallejo-times-herald,-vallejo,-calif-062512.aspx

Speaking about FUD: There's a certain :red_indian: who (used to at least) constantly harp on the "awesome responsibility" of carrying deadly force in pubic. Well, at least when I was in HS, most 16 year olds were entrusted to "openly" wield deadly force in public daily via a Drivers License!

You don't have to be some "high speed, low drag" SF operative to legally, safely, and effectively defend your or others' lives. Plenty of "everyday heroes" do that, both at home and in public. I particularly like the example of the 70 y.o. great grandmother LTCer who uses her .357 magnum to kill a BG that has the drop on her! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=234559 ) For hundreds of more examples, see:
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

Who knows? Maybe someone in Safeway's corp. offices might come across this thread and change their minds.

CSACANNONEER
07-08-2012, 7:22 AM
To all you who say to ignore it,

Don't you respect private property rights? Or, are you just trying to give all responsible gun owners a bad name? Either way, you are not going to help anyone by ignoring the signs. Just because you don't agree with the policy doesn't mean that you should violate their right to run their business into the ground. Just DO NOT GO INTO THE STORE AND CALL MANAGEMENT TO LET THEM KNOW WHY. Anything else would be hypocritical for those who try to claim that they have a right to carry.

bombadillo
07-08-2012, 7:47 AM
If its concealed, it shouldn't be a problem, right. If criminals carry concealed without being caught, I bet you could to.


I never even noticed a sign on the door stating that. Wow, there is so much advertising around here who could read everything.

Paladin
07-08-2012, 9:23 AM
CGNers who are members of large, national forums (AR15.com, GlockTalk, The High Road, The Firing Line, Tactical Forums, WarriorTalk, etc.), please cross post this info so that other CA gunnies will hear of it and so that pro-RKBA folk in other states can join our boycott.

Be sure to include this link for leaving Safeway a comment:
Just used the form. Let them know, maybe they just don't understand.
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop

IVC
07-08-2012, 11:28 AM
Don't you respect private property rights? Or, are you just trying to give all responsible gun owners a bad name?

This is going into the old discussion of "private property" vs. "publicly accessible private property."

From your previous posts, I believe you are firmly in the "no such thing as the publicly accessible private property" group, and most of us respect it as a valid opinion. However, you have to at least acknowledge that there is a different line of thought that says "if you want it private, make it private," since it's unreasonable to have individuals know all the boundaries and all the intricacies of the law.

In short, we respect private property owners' rights to post signs and enforce whatever they want, e.g., by having metal detectors at the entrance. At the same time, we don't want to give up our right to be left alone when minding our own business. The solution already exists: if the property owner asks us to leave, we have to comply. Until then, it's up to him to police for actions he doesn't like.

Following the law is not giving a bad name to the gun owners. As a side issue, we should worry much more about LEO encounters in rogue areas, than about a misguided grocery store policy.

CSACANNONEER
07-08-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't have to agree with a business's policy to respect their right to impliment said policy. Most businesses are open to the public but still have the right to refuse service to customers or not allow certain potential customers into their business based on appearance, attire, etc. Yes, I believe that private businesses have rights and that private property which is accessible to the public is still private property.

IVC
07-08-2012, 11:59 AM
No question business have, and should have very broad rights. The only point is that if the public can move freely over their property, it's the business owner, not the user who has the burden of enforcing the policy.

So, if one violates a policy, it's up to the owner to ask them to leave and if the person refuses, it rightfully so becomes a criminal trespass. It's not up to the user of the property to comply in a way he/she would be required if it were a law of the land.

As an old Greek philosopher said: "What you cannot enforce, do not command".

tbhracing
07-08-2012, 12:14 PM
I will check my local South Sac, yo! store and report back with photos. If it is there, will start shopping at the competition across the street.

vincewarde
07-08-2012, 2:41 PM
I used this form:
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop

I used the same form to explain that while I do not have a permit and do not carry, I avoid places where legal guns are banned because they are just too dangerous.

I also pointed out some of the reasons why this may actually INCREASE their legal exposure.

Also IF YOU HAVE A CLUB CARD INPUT THAT NUMBER. They will be loosing a few hundred bucks per month from my family.

ramathorn
07-08-2012, 3:43 PM
If i see this sign in my local store, goodbye Safeway!

NotEnufGarage
07-08-2012, 4:17 PM
I used the same form to explain that while I do not have a permit and do not carry, I avoid places where legal guns are banned because they are just too dangerous.

I also pointed out some of the reasons why this may actually INCREASE their legal exposure.

Also IF YOU HAVE A CLUB CARD INPUT THAT NUMBER. They will be loosing a few hundred bucks per month from my family.

They'll be losing about $600/month from just me.

vincewarde
07-08-2012, 4:20 PM
Sadly, until people die and it can be proved that said deaths might have been prevented - and as a result the business involved ends up loosing millions of dollars - the legal departments will continue to recommend that these signs go up.

Still, we need to let these businesses know how much we disagree and what the real world effects of such policies are.

Whatisthis?
07-08-2012, 4:46 PM
I don't care if there is a sign in the store by me. They will get an email about it anyways and they will also be losing my business. It's that simple. Spread the word everyone.

diginit
07-08-2012, 6:09 PM
While there is not Penal Code restricting it, if they ask you to leave, you must because if you do not, you will be trespassing, and if you're armed, that could also be an "armed criminal action" and that is not a good place to be.

Sorry CSD, You are mistaken this time... A person can only be cited for trespassing in Ca. when asked to leave in the presence of an officer AND the land owner. And the accused refuses to leave. (unless the owner has a form filed with the PD. Valid for 1 yr, Then must be renued. In that case, the presence of an officer will suffice) But the suspect must refuse to leave. Just being on private property is not illegal according to the PC. Unless a restraining order has been filed.
The only other way to be cited for trespass is property damage or actual shooting on private property. Not just carry. The worst that can happen is being escorted off the property after the man with a gun call to 911 and possible revocation of the persons LTC.
I wonder what would happen if someone with a LTC stopped a robbery in a Safeway displaying this sign. Would Fox news report it? :rolleyes:

AirShark
07-08-2012, 6:35 PM
I just saw the sign last night at my Safeway in Hollister, CA.

CSACANNONEER
07-08-2012, 6:40 PM
No question business have, and should have very broad rights. The only point is that if the public can move freely over their property, it's the business owner, not the user who has the burden of enforcing the policy.

So, if one violates a policy, it's up to the owner to ask them to leave and if the person refuses, it rightfully so becomes a criminal trespass. It's not up to the user of the property to comply in a way he/she would be required if it were a law of the land.

As an old Greek philosopher said: "What you cannot enforce, do not command".

I don't care what the legal ramifications are. I will respect their wishes and their right to choose who they want in their store just like, I want them to respect my right to protect myself. Anything less is hypocritical and, I don't want gun owners to be portrayed as hypocrites. So, I will respect their rights and not shop there. Hell, I'll go one further and make sure to tell ever pro 2A LEO not to shop there either. Maybe, a few LEOs should post on their forum that they will shop at other stores and leave Safeway gun free except for the criminals.

4DMASTR
07-08-2012, 6:50 PM
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/1sikgtp/2012-07-08184439.jpg

Just found this Gem, McHenry ave Modesto

Sunday
07-08-2012, 6:53 PM
Message to Safeway sent.

vincewarde
07-08-2012, 7:05 PM
Granted things are relatively easy now, as far as CCW rules are concerned - however when (not if, because it will happen) shall issue is mandated in CA, tighter rules are a certainty.

Agreed that until you are asked to leave a public place, you are not trespassing. Agreed that signage standards have not been set. Do you want these things to change? Do what the open carry movement did: Push the envelope. We already know what the other side will do, because they have done it - or tried to do it - in every state that has adopted shall issue.

If you are fortunate enough to have a permit, please don't hasten the day when the other side pushes for more restrictions by pushing the envelope. It's really in your best interest.

BTW If WINCO has this policy I'll have to find a gun rights friendly place to buy bulk foods. Does anyone know of one?

artoaster
07-08-2012, 7:30 PM
What are they going to do? If you're legal to carry concealed a sign on the door is not a problem.

Oh, but if you walked in and said, "By the way I am carrying a firearm" you'd be as stupid as the sign and the people who put it there, wouldn't you?

halifax
07-08-2012, 7:33 PM
Saw the sign at my local Safeway last Tuesday. Today it was gone. :confused: :)

NotEnufGarage
07-08-2012, 9:03 PM
Didn't see any sign in the Fair Oaks Safeway.. I'll check Carmichael tomorrow.

Paladin
07-08-2012, 9:06 PM
I think some out-of-state folk above said that their stores don't have such signage. Perhaps it is because we're still May Issue whereas those folks are in Shall Issue states. If that is the case, if/when we win Shall Issue (assuming Obama does not get any more antis on SCOTUS), perhaps Safeway will remove the signs.

Or, this could just be a case of antis pressuring corporations to try to maintain the anti culture in this state in anticipation of a legal win for CA. If this is the case, then pushback from our side is critical.

John Browning
07-08-2012, 9:30 PM
Brentwood, CA has the signs up.

IVC
07-08-2012, 10:14 PM
...I will respect their wishes and their right to choose who they want in their store just like, I want them to respect my right to protect myself. Anything less is hypocritical and, I don't want gun owners to be portrayed as hypocrites. ...

Nothing hypocritical in following the law. The law says that their wishes are not our command. The law also says that they can ask us to leave and that we have to obey. Their word is final, but they have to figure out who to ask to leave.

I would like to "wish away" many things, but it doesn't work that way.

DRM6000
07-08-2012, 10:27 PM
The Mill Valley location does not have "no firearms" signs up. They do have firearm-related magazines though. :D

Kappy
07-08-2012, 11:23 PM
We don't have one in Yuba City... so I don't care. Beyond that... I'd still carry. In fact, I carried into the Safeway in Lincoln last week. It's the only place to buy Refreshe Diet Orange Drink.

Wherryj
07-09-2012, 9:50 AM
The sign doesn't specifically prohibit "fiearms"? I don't own any "guns"...

Glock22Fan
07-09-2012, 10:33 AM
Message sent

stilly
07-09-2012, 12:20 PM
It is just a passing fad thing. The next LOTTAY... Safeway wants some free PR and they are getting it. :)

I believe that Safeway is Alph Beta and owned by Mormons anyways. At least it WAS like that and please correct me if I am wrong but I am an american and too lazy to look it up on the internet...

(oh there are sooooo many things wrong with this post.)

t0kie
07-09-2012, 12:24 PM
Just went to my local Safeway in Pleasant Hill. No signs at all.

radioman
07-09-2012, 1:45 PM
*
In the U.S. Retail Store or Corporate offerings, call us toll-free: 1-877-723-3929

flood the switch board, let them know a boycott is coming. tell Safeway what happened with the Starbucks boycott, we turned out and Starbucks made more money that day. this will not stand if we let them know how much money will be lost just to be PC, I called; so should you.

forgiven
07-09-2012, 3:59 PM
I saw this for the first time on a Safeway store in Oakland about 3 weeks ago and since I regularly shop at Safeways, I'm thinking it must have been added w/in the last month or two, at most.

BTW the sticker is small: only about 2" high x 5" wide.

And, no, you do not "screw them" by ignoring the sign. You "screw them" by telling the manager that you will stop shopping at Safeways from now on since they require you to be an unarmed victim should anything happen and tell them you will tell all your friends about this and then stop shopping there!

Luckys and many other grocery stores/supermarkets will be happy to take Safeway's business.

:iagree:

kaligaran
07-09-2012, 4:15 PM
Sent a very courteous email through their site.

Thanks for posting.

pdq_wizzard
07-09-2012, 4:43 PM
Just seen the sign at the Folsom Safeway, it was not there two weeks ago, sucks too it's on my way home from work and the range.

sent a nice note telling them they need to change the policy, and if they do I will be back.

If not there are at lest 4 other stores in town.

advocatusdiaboli
07-09-2012, 6:24 PM
I don't know. I haven't see any signs at Safeway's here in AZ. A few other posters have said the same where they live.

It may be just a local thing.

Wouldn't be surprised if it is localized to large metro areas in California. Maybe pandering to what they perceive are the feelings of the majority of their customers (regardless of whether that's actually true). I'll be each region in each states can choose, it would hurt them in more free states but probably helps them in the LA and SF metro areas.

BroncoBob
07-09-2012, 7:07 PM
Don't care for Safeway everything is over priced

NotEnufGarage
07-09-2012, 10:04 PM
Checked 3 stores near me (East Sacramento - Howe Ave, Arden Way, Dewey Dr.) - No signs showing..

I got a reply from the inquiry I sent them that their pulic affairs department would be addressing my comments. We'll see what they say. I'm almost beginning to think it's either a per store policy, or some third party put the signs up without Safeway Corporates knowledge.

pdq_wizzard
07-10-2012, 6:22 AM
The no gun sign looks like the same manufacture as the free wifi sign

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

NorCalDustin
07-10-2012, 10:03 AM
What are they going to do? If you're legal to carry concealed a sign on the door is not a problem.

Oh, but if you walked in and said, "By the way I am carrying a firearm" you'd be as stupid as the sign and the people who put it there, wouldn't you?
But why would i support a store like this.

Wiz-of-Awd
07-10-2012, 10:09 AM
Personally...

I think this is somewhat of a non-issue...

1. Criminals already think they are the only ones packing (for the most part).
2. Those who carry concealed will continue to do so.

Doesn't really change anything.

A.W.D.

POLICESTATE
07-10-2012, 10:11 AM
Saw one of these at the Los Gatos safeway on the street-level door. Funny though, in their underground parking there is no such signage.

The Shadow
07-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Just a heads up for So Cal Calgunners, Vons and Safeway are the same company. As of this posting, I haven't seen any "NO GUNS" signs at Vons, so I wonder if it is left to the discretion of the store manager.

VAReact
07-10-2012, 11:53 AM
Checked 3 stores near me (East Sacramento - Howe Ave, Arden Way, Dewey Dr.) - No signs showing..

I got a reply from the inquiry I sent them that their pulic affairs department would be addressing my comments. We'll see what they say. I'm almost beginning to think it's either a per store policy, or some third party put the signs up without Safeway Corporates knowledge.

I received a similar email. Vons in my area does not have the signs, as far as I have seen. Still not going to patronise Vons until signage is down at Safeway stores.

nuggett
07-10-2012, 7:39 PM
First time posting,new member.This is directed at the comment that Stilly made about safeway and vons being owned by Mormons.
Do you own any firearms made from browning ? Did you know Browning was a Mormon?
Personally what difference does it make who owns the stores?
I'm Mormon ,been involved with firearms since the age of 15.Hold 3 ccw permits with California pending ( live scan last Fri.)
So your point of being owned by Mormons is ridiculous.
Ever here of the Mormon Battalion ?

Merovign
07-11-2012, 12:40 AM
I like to call that a "rob me sign."

I never did like Safeway. Always pricey and I hate the "customer tracking cards."

Gray Peterson
07-11-2012, 1:01 AM
First time posting,new member.This is directed at the comment that Stilly made about safeway and vons being owned by Mormons.
Do you own any firearms made from browning ? Did you know Browning was a Mormon?
Personally what difference does it make who owns the stores?
I'm Mormon ,been involved with firearms since the age of 15.Hold 3 ccw permits with California pending ( live scan last Fri.)
So your point of being owned by Mormons is ridiculous.
Ever here of the Mormon Battalion ?

If there is a post which is religiously offensive, please use the "!" button at the top right hand part of the post that violates it.

Even in off-topic posts, attacks on someone's religion by itself is not tolerated. Though criticisms of church policies can and does occur, not a huge fan of personally attacking someone based on their religion, especially one shared by the founder of the modern .45ACP...

safewaysecurity
07-11-2012, 1:30 AM
I swear I had nothing to do with this.

ZenDaddy
07-11-2012, 6:35 AM
I used this form:
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop

This

I don't approve, but it is private property, and just as I wouldn't want someone to carry onto my property against my will, I won't carry onto theirs. Just vote with your dollar, and buy from stores who are more friendly to carrying. I'm only really bugged by restrictions on carrying in public/government owned spaces. Private means private.

Then this.

Safeway lost my business years ago. Overpriced and overly pretentious.

SanPedroShooter
07-11-2012, 7:22 AM
No signs at either store in this part of LA.

I imagine they will get around to putting them up so people can get around to ignoring them.

mrrsquared79
07-11-2012, 10:10 AM
Here is what I sent to them:

"I was recently traveling and found a sign posted
in one of your stores which stated "No Firearms
Allowed." I find this appalling after being a
faithful patron for over 30 years. The sign tells
me you do not want my business since this
demonstrates you do not care for my safety. As a
law abiding citizen, I am required to adhere to
this sign whereas criminals by definition do not
have to nor will they abide by a "No Firearms
Allowed" sign at your store or any store for this
matter.

Now after seeing this sign, I will no longer be a
patron and will find another competitor of yours
to give my business to and also point out your
lack of respect for civil rights to other people I
know who value their civil rights.

Sincerely,

mrrsquared79*"

And the reply:

"mrrsquared79*:

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your local Vons store.

You expressed your concerns regarding the sign stated "No Firearms Allowed” at the store. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. It is not our intention to upset our valued customers, but to provide them with excellent customer service.

We strive to ensure that Vons standards and services exceed our customer's expectations. We appreciate the time you have taken to share your valuable feedback. Your comments are important to us and will be forwarded to the Public Affairs Department for further review. Please be assured that your concerns will be addressed.

Further, our records indicate that the email address you wrote to us with is different than the email address we have on file for you. If you would like for us to update this information, please reply to this email.

Mrrsquared79*, should you require further assistance, you may reply to this email or phone us at 1-877-723-3929 and reference Contact ID 21967707. One of our associates will be happy to assist you.

Thank you for shopping at Vons.

Sincerely,

Vons Customer Service Team"

--------------------------------------------------------
*name changed for obvious reasons


It appears the actually took the time to read what I wrote rather than giving me a canned response and as such I give them credit for that.

Mikeb
07-11-2012, 10:44 AM
My local Pac and Save (Safeway) has the sign. I saw it last week and mentioned to the checker. He hoped it would provide safety. I assured him that anyone that was going to hold up the store wouldn't obey the sign.

sanjosebmx
07-11-2012, 10:56 AM
I sent this:

"No guns allowed"
I won't be shopping in your stores so long as this policy is in effect. My family and I are much safer in locations where criminals are not assured that their victims will not be armed.

If it does any good or not.. who knows. At least hopefully someone somewhere will see that not everyone thinks guns are 'bad'

Wiz-of-Awd
07-11-2012, 11:08 AM
Cool canned/corporate letter, with - just insert "No Firearms Allowed” here.

A.W.D.

Here is what I sent to them:

"I was recently traveling and found a sign posted
in one of your stores which stated "No Firearms
Allowed." I find this appalling after being a
faithful patron for over 30 years. The sign tells
me you do not want my business since this
demonstrates you do not care for my safety. As a
law abiding citizen, I am required to adhere to
this sign whereas criminals by definition do not
have to nor will they abide by a "No Firearms
Allowed" sign at your store or any store for this
matter.

Now after seeing this sign, I will no longer be a
patron and will find another competitor of yours
to give my business to and also point out your
lack of respect for civil rights to other people I
know who value their civil rights.

Sincerely,

mrrsquared79*"

And the reply:

"mrrsquared79*:

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your local Vons store.

You expressed your concerns regarding the sign stated "No Firearms Allowed” at the store. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. It is not our intention to upset our valued customers, but to provide them with excellent customer service.

We strive to ensure that Vons standards and services exceed our customer's expectations. We appreciate the time you have taken to share your valuable feedback. Your comments are important to us and will be forwarded to the Public Affairs Department for further review. Please be assured that your concerns will be addressed.

Further, our records indicate that the email address you wrote to us with is different than the email address we have on file for you. If you would like for us to update this information, please reply to this email.

Mrrsquared79*, should you require further assistance, you may reply to this email or phone us at 1-877-723-3929 and reference Contact ID 21967707. One of our associates will be happy to assist you.

Thank you for shopping at Vons.

Sincerely,

Vons Customer Service Team"

--------------------------------------------------------
*name changed for obvious reasons


It appears the actually took the time to read what I wrote rather than giving me a canned response and as such I give them credit for that.

Lugiahua
07-11-2012, 11:28 AM
there is a local store in my town has "no gun" sign...
funny thing is, who is this sign even for?

Consider that I live in Contra Costa, there are very few people have LTC other than police officers or judges. Does that means this store refuse to serve police officer and judges? :D

WatchMan
07-11-2012, 11:47 AM
I swear I had nothing to do with this.

:smilielol5:

edwardm
07-11-2012, 12:57 PM
Two things.

First, the Safeway Wikipedia page was updated about this new 'policy'. Wonder how long that'll last.

Second, just like with Peet's, I'd put a sawbuck on LCAV/Brady being the ones pushing this (though clearly from a different angle since this isn't an OC-related issue).

I'd imagine they're trying to push this on as many large holders of private property as possible - they know it's likely a winner in CA, while a likely fail in a 2A-friendly State like Oregon or Nevada.

Cranium
07-11-2012, 1:37 PM
It's on the door in Los Gatos as well.

tbhracing
07-11-2012, 1:50 PM
Just checked the Elk Grove store last night, NO signs on either entrance doors.

nicki
07-11-2012, 3:32 PM
Perhaps something needs to be done at the federal level, after all, the core of the second amendment is self defense.

If self defense is a civil right, that forcing people to disarm when entering your public business means you surrender your rights.

Since these businesses are actively demanding that customers disarm, then it follows IMHO that they should be liable both criminally/civilly to protect you while you are in their business.

If we remove any civil/criminal liability for them respecting your self defense rights and impose liability or them not respecting your rights, those no gun signs will be gone.

Safeway is a big corp and I am sure at least one store has been robbed somewhere and I am sure they weren't able to stop the crime.

Gun rights are civil rights, we should exercise our rights accordingly.

Nicki

Wiz-of-Awd
07-11-2012, 3:40 PM
Unfortunately, this is a bit wrong.

These businesses are private- not public, and you have the right to shop elsewhere.
Nobody forces you to go to Safeway, but if you choose to, then you are obligated to follow their rules and requests.

Sorry, but good luck!

A.W.D.

Perhaps something needs to be done at the federal level, after all, the core of the second amendment is self defense.

If self defense is a civil right, that forcing people to disarm when entering your public business means you surrender your rights.

Since these businesses are actively demanding that customers disarm, then it follows IMHO that they should be liable both criminally/civilly to protect you while you are in their business.

If we remove any civil/criminal liability for them respecting your self defense rights and impose liability or them not respecting your rights, those no gun signs will be gone.

Safeway is a big corp and I am sure at least one store has been robbed somewhere and I am sure they weren't able to stop the crime.

Gun rights are civil rights, we should exercise our rights accordingly.

Nicki

friedokra
07-11-2012, 3:45 PM
Just a heads up for So Cal Calgunners, Vons and Safeway are the same company. As of this posting, I haven't seen any "NO GUNS" signs at Vons, so I wonder if it is left to the discretion of the store manager.

Just adding that Pavilions is Safeway owned too.

friedokra
07-11-2012, 3:47 PM
So...what happens when their armored car delivery arrives? :rolleyes:
Does the guard run back to the armored car and put his firearms away, then enter Safeway?

pdq_wizzard
07-11-2012, 4:32 PM
Here is what they sent me back

Comments or Questions : I was turned away at the Folsom CA store today, there is a sign saying "no firearms allowed"

I am licensed to carry a firearm and have been though the same training as the Police in our town. I will no longer be doing any shopping at Safeway until you change the policy. The store is on my way home from work, but for now I will go out of my way to one of the other stores in town that has no such sign.

Have a nice day
********.


And what they sent back:


Mr. PDQ_Wizzard:

Thank you for your recent correspondence.

We appreciate the time you have taken to share your feedback. Your comments will be directed to our Public Affairs Department for further review.

Mr. PDQ_Wizzard, should you require further assistance, you may reply to this email or phone us at 1-877-723-3929 and reference Contact ID 21988193. One of our associates will be happy to assist you.


Thank you for shopping at Safeway.
Sincerely,

Safeway Customer Service Team

Should I call and let them know they need help with reading comprehension? :rolleyes: :D

DrDavid
07-11-2012, 5:45 PM
I called Safeway customer service. The person I spoke to said that the signs were not company/corporate policy. He suggested that the individual stores were responsible for the signs. However, it seems odd to me that the signs are all the same--yet, somehow are not "corporate policy".

I wonder if some anti-gun group is mailing all the stores stickers to apply to the front of the store?

WatchMan
07-11-2012, 6:08 PM
I called Safeway customer service. The person I spoke to said that the signs were not company/corporate policy. He suggested that the individual stores were responsible for the signs. However, it seems odd to me that the signs are all the same--yet, somehow are not "corporate policy".

I wonder if some anti-gun group is mailing all the stores stickers to apply to the front of the store?

hehe, if so, maybe we could send them signs that say "LTC Holders Welcome!" and see if they blindly stick those in the window... :D

DrDavid
07-11-2012, 6:14 PM
hehe, if so, maybe we could send them signs that say "LTC Holders Welcome!" and see if they blindly stick those in the window... :D

I think that's a great idea! We should totally make stickers that say that and send them to all sorts of stores with a message about how they should post them in their windows, etc..

creekside
07-11-2012, 6:18 PM
I think that's a great idea! We should totally make stickers that say that and send them to all sorts of stores with a message about how they should post them in their windows, etc..

Can we make the sign something like "Licensed Persons Welcome?"

This includes not only LTCs (aka CCWs) but others with licenses, such as those poor benighted armored car guards. :)

DrDavid
07-11-2012, 6:26 PM
"We Support The Constitution. Shop safely." seems like a good catchall to me...

IVC
07-11-2012, 6:55 PM
Unfortunately, this is a bit wrong.

These businesses are private- not public, and you have the right to shop elsewhere.
Nobody forces you to go to Safeway, but if you choose to, then you are obligated to follow their rules and requests.

No, it doesn't work that way. A store cannot post sign "whites only." Also, the store rules are not the law. They can ask you to leave and that's it.

Don't imply what you don't know. That "private property" doesn't work the way you suggest, look no further than what happened to Theseus.

the707kid
07-11-2012, 8:57 PM
Just thought I would add something here I work as security at a CA casino we also have a no firearms allowed policy. I asked our director about this policy and suggested that people with valid permits be allowed to carry in casino. He said in our state compact the state imposed a no weapons/firearms clause that we have to enforce. Only exceptions are casino security, gaming commission, armored cars, police/law enforcement. We would be subject to fines or being shut down if we disregarded that policy.

Another case of the state imposing their anti 2a policy on us. This is apparently in all state licensed (card rooms) and tribal casinos in California

NotEnufGarage
07-11-2012, 9:36 PM
Just thought I would add something here I work as security at a CA casino we also have a no firearms allowed policy. I asked our director about this policy and suggested that people with valid permits be allowed to carry in casino. He said in our state compact the state imposed a no weapons/firearms clause that we have to enforce. Only exceptions are casino security, gaming commission, armored cars, police/law enforcement. We would be subject to fines or being shut down if we disregarded that policy.

Another case of the state imposing their anti 2a policy on us. This is apparently in all state licensed (card rooms) and tribal casinos in California

Casino's serve liquor, so they're no carry environments, anyway.

kaligaran
07-11-2012, 9:40 PM
Sent an email myself. Got the same generic response as many of you to the email I sent...
We appreciate the time you have taken to share your feedback. Your comments will be directed to our Public Affairs Department for further review.


blah blah blah.

steelrain82
07-11-2012, 9:44 PM
tribal casinos are on their tribal lands so they are soverign nations i thought?

NotEnufGarage
07-11-2012, 9:47 PM
Check the Rancho Cordova and Carmichael stores today. No signs showing.

WatchMan
07-11-2012, 9:58 PM
"We Support The Constitution. Shop safely." seems like a good catchall to me...

:cheers2:

mrrsquared79
07-11-2012, 10:07 PM
Unfortunately, this is a bit wrong.

These businesses are private- not public, and you have the right to shop elsewhere.
Nobody forces you to go to Safeway, but if you choose to, then you are obligated to follow their rules and requests.

Sorry, but good luck!

A.W.D.

Link when you quoted my last post didn't come through correctly.

Next, because I respect their decision, I did the courtesy of letting them know WHY I will no longer support them with my money. :)

BrokerB
07-11-2012, 10:10 PM
Nothing band you from ltd at a place that serves booze. Only restrict on my ltd days place that mainly sells booze.

All casinos I go to have restaurants and lots of food

Sawmeg
07-11-2012, 10:12 PM
I called Safeway customer service. The person I spoke to said that the signs were not company/corporate policy. He suggested that the individual stores were responsible for the signs. However, it seems odd to me that the signs are all the same--yet, somehow are not "corporate policy".

I wonder if some anti-gun group is mailing all the stores stickers to apply to the front of the store?

The manager of the Redding store told me it was corporates decision and she had no control over it. I had a very nice conversation with her, but she said there was nothing that she could do. I wonder which truth is the truth??:confused:

the707kid
07-11-2012, 10:38 PM
Casino's serve liquor, so they're no carry environments, anyway.

True, but not all CA casinos serve liquor, at least last time I checked. Also our compact was signed when we did not have a liquor license. Casinos are usually licensed as restaurants and not bars o their liquor license I don't know if there is a legal diff. When I got my CCW the capt. At the SO that did my interview said that bars were off limits but a restaurant that served alcohol was not as long as the licensed was not drinking and that is always what I have gone off of.

Enough on this I am not really staying on topic here since this is about Safeway

the707kid
07-11-2012, 10:43 PM
tribal casinos are on their tribal lands so they are soverign nations i thought?

True but a federal law makes tribes cooperate and sign a compact with the state they reside in to operate a casino and California mandates getting an ABC liquor license, and follow labor laws (does not really happen), and allow lawsuits in state court not federal court. Also California is a PL 280 state which means law enforcement is a state responsibility not a federal one. Very complicated. See this http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Law_280

I don't always trust Wikipedia but the article is accurate.

AyatollahGondola
07-11-2012, 11:36 PM
I was a safeway employee way, way back, and for a short time. Then I worked for them as an independent contractor for about 13 or so years. Safeway management used to be saturated with ex-military or reservists. Don't know what goes on there these days, but policy was never up to individual managers. District managers were your only hope for that, and then division managers were the next step. A store manager at safeway was just a guy or gal that took more abuse and was dismissable for a lot more infractions.
If you want to make an impact on this issue, go to division managers or at least district manager level.
I might add that safeway retail management personnel are ruthless, greedy, unconscienable business people. I've watched them slowly choke some of their smaller long term suppliers to death while extracting concessions from them. Safeway has been on the ropes with their stockholders for many years now, and it wouldn't shock me at all to see the chain sold off to pay dividends and investments. But if you hope to influence policy at the district or division level, be prepared show them how it will put profits in their till to distribute to stockholders. Any dreams of summoning up patriotic, constitutional, or citizen causes will be mere entertainment for them.

roushstage2
07-12-2012, 1:37 AM
Been a couple of weeks since I've been to my Safeway, but I'd be truly surprised if such a sign was posted there. Next time I go by there, I'll check just for the heck of it.

Markinsac
07-12-2012, 2:04 AM
I saw the sign at one location - interesting colors - it matches the colors of the signs inside the store. I don't think an external entity would have thought of doing color coordination like that.

Wiz-of-Awd
07-12-2012, 7:18 AM
No, it doesn't work that way. A store cannot post sign "whites only." Also, the store rules are not the law. They can ask you to leave and that's it.

Don't imply what you don't know. That "private property" doesn't work the way you suggest, look no further than what happened to Theseus.

Yeah, actually it does. Agreed on "whites," but that's a racism issue and is clearly different and illegal.

A store insisting "no guns" is not illegal. Just as our state can impose laws which are more strict than the Fed's, privately owned business can indeed impose policies that are more strict than the state, and - because it does indeed work the way I suggest - "They can ask you to leave" when you disobey their policy.

As for my original post:
Unfortunately, this is a bit wrong.

These businesses are private- not public, and you have the right to shop elsewhere.
Nobody forces you to go to Safeway, but if you choose to, then you are obligated to follow their rules and requests.

I implied nothing.
I stated it quite clearly and openly, you just don't necessarily like it or agree, but don't tell me what I do or do not know.

A.W.D.

IVC
07-12-2012, 10:38 AM
A store insisting "no guns" is not illegal. Just as our state can impose laws which are more strict than the Fed's, privately owned business can indeed impose policies that are more strict than the state

You are mixing way too many concepts. Safeway is not privately owned. Its publicly owned and its ticker symbol is SWY on NYSE. The type of ownership has nothing to do with it.

What signs a store posts and what their polices are are their own. A store doesn't get to make its own laws. Fundamentally different than Fed vs. State, where the State can pass laws.

A wish of the store management, or their internal polices are their own. Since they cannot pass or modify the law, the only remedies they have are those that are prescribed by the actual law. In case of the non-disturbing legal behavior such as legally carying, the only remedy is to ask one to leave, provided they used a legal way to determine someone is carrying.

The rules on the private property that is accesible to public (quite different than "privately owned business") must comply with many actual laws. Contrary to your belief, the (i)legality of "whites only" type of racism is based on how a business operates (including its relationship to the general public), not on whether it's private or not. There are many legal racist organizations in the USA.

I implied nothing.
I stated it quite clearly and openly, you just don't necessarily like it or agree, but don't tell me what I do or do not know.

Ok, I'll let your post speak for itself: "...you are obligated to follow their rules...", "...privately owned business...", "...disobey their policy...".

Wiz-of-Awd
07-12-2012, 11:04 AM
I think you've over-complicated my original point:

Unfortunately, this is a bit wrong.

These businesses are private- not public, and you have the right to shop elsewhere.
Nobody forces you to go to Safeway, but if you choose to, then you are obligated to follow their rules and requests.

I can surely admit being wrong concerning the public vs. private status of Safeway, but the fact remains:

...What signs a store posts and what their polices are are their own. A store doesn't get to make its own laws...

I never made any mention (implied or otherwise) of "law" regarding this issue, only that their policies allow them to require you to leave if you don't follow them.

A.W.D.

Edit: Perhaps an attorney or LEO in the crowd can step in and clear up this debate/question?

You are mixing way too many concepts. Safeway is not privately owned. Its publicly owned and its ticker symbol is SWY on NYSE. The type of ownership has nothing to do with it.

What signs a store posts and what their polices are are their own. A store doesn't get to make its own laws. Fundamentally different than Fed vs. State, where the State can pass laws.

A wish of the store management, or their internal polices are their own. Since they cannot pass or modify the law, the only remedies they have are those that are prescribed by the actual law. In case of the non-disturbing legal behavior such as legally carying, the only remedy is to ask one to leave, provided they used a legal way to determine someone is carrying.

The rules on the private property that is accesible to public (quite different than "privately owned business") must comply with many actual laws. Contrary to your belief, the (i)legality of "whites only" type of racism is based on how a business operates (including its relationship to the general public), not on whether it's private or not. There are many legal racist organizations in the USA.



Ok, I'll let your post speak for itself: "...you are obligated to follow their rules...", "...privately owned business...", "...disobey their policy...".

Paul S
07-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Nothing band you from ltd at a place that serves booze. Only restrict on my ltd days place that mainly sells booze.

All casinos I go to have restaurants and lots of food

Maybe I'm having a bad day...can someone translate this for me? :(

WatchMan
07-12-2012, 12:28 PM
Maybe I'm having a bad day...can someone translate this for me? :(

I think: "Nothing bans you from carrying with an LTC at a place that serves booze. The only restriction on my LTC is that I cannot carry in places that mainly sell booze. All the casinos I go to have restaurants and lots of food."

Paul S
07-12-2012, 1:44 PM
I think: "Nothing bans you from carrying with an LTC at a place that serves booze. The only restriction on my LTC is that I cannot carry in places that mainly sell booze. All the casinos I go to have restaurants and lots of food."


OK got it ..many thanks.

Paladin
07-12-2012, 3:25 PM
Safeway on Howard Ave, in Burlingame has stickers on 2 of 3 front entrances. Didn't check other entrances.

Vulture
07-12-2012, 4:05 PM
Check the Rancho Cordova and Carmichael stores today. No signs showing.

There was a post earlier in this thread that said the Rancho Cordova store had it, has it been removed?

NotEnufGarage
07-12-2012, 5:56 PM
Upon closer inspection, the Carmichael store does have a "No Firearms Allowed" sign up. It is facing out next to the exit doors and was obscured by a trash can. Since I haven't heard from Public Relations yet, I'll be taking it up with the manager and/or district manager.

gotgunz
07-12-2012, 6:14 PM
The two greatest mysteries of mankind...

What the ccw laws are in California and the female orgasm.

Both have many similarities:

1. Many people don't know squat about either and therefore shouldn't profess knowledge of such.

2. Many others haven't experienced either and also shouldn't comment.

LOL!

gotgunz
07-12-2012, 6:14 PM
The two greatest mysteries of mankind...

What the ccw laws are in California and the female orgasm.

Both have many similarities:

1. Many people don't know squat about either and therefore shouldn't profess knowledge of such.

2. Many others haven't experienced either and also shouldn't comment.

LOL!

decepticon6551
07-12-2012, 6:18 PM
Upon closer inspection, the Carmichael store does have a "No Firearms Allowed" sign up. It is facing out next to the exit doors and was obscured by a trash can. Since I haven't heard from Public Relations yet, I'll be taking it up with the manager and/or district manager.

That's fair.

It being obscured could also be an indicator that the Manager doesn't agree with the sticker. Where I work, anything I must post, but disagree with, gets posted about three feet off the ground. While open, there are other signs & product blocking them. Anyone that wants to read those is free too, in the middle of the night, while we're closed.

Ctwo
07-12-2012, 8:27 PM
Perhaps something needs to be done at the federal level, after all, the core of the second amendment is self defense.

If self defense is a civil right, that forcing people to disarm when entering your public business means you surrender your rights.

Since these businesses are actively demanding that customers disarm, then it follows IMHO that they should be liable both criminally/civilly to protect you while you are in their business.

If we remove any civil/criminal liability for them respecting your self defense rights and impose liability or them not respecting your rights, those no gun signs will be gone.

Safeway is a big corp and I am sure at least one store has been robbed somewhere and I am sure they weren't able to stop the crime.

Gun rights are civil rights, we should exercise our rights accordingly.

Nicki

I'm not sure that would pass...

If I go to a movie theater, I think I should check my 1A rights at the door or have them severely restricted, or be obliged to leave at the manager's request. Further, I could be permanently banned from the premises.

diginit
07-13-2012, 12:02 AM
Good Answer.

I would only add that you are not liable on any gun related charges, but it is a tresspass. Trespassing is a crime. If one doesn't leave when told to, or returns after being told to leave, they may be arrested for trespassing.

Arrested for trespassing? no. Cited with a promise to appear in court. probably.

vincewarde
07-13-2012, 12:49 AM
Doesn't Safeway operate stores is "shall issue" states? It would seem to me that we need to expand this "boycott" to these states. Any ideas?

kcbrown
07-13-2012, 12:53 AM
Arrested for trespassing? no. Cited with a promise to appear in court. probably.

This is California. In anti-gun California, if it's revealed that the reason you're considered to be trespassing is that you're carrying a firearm against the will of the property owner/manager, then you will be arrested. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it often transpires in much the same way that the Erik Scott incident did (store employee calls police and claims that a guy with a gun is acting "erratically", cops show up with itchy trigger fingers, etc.).

Faxon
07-13-2012, 8:16 PM
In California, this would be much more meaningful if we had "shall issue".
I won't hold my breath.
But I will move to Arizona in three years when I retire.

roushstage2
07-14-2012, 3:28 AM
Finally made it to my Safeway today...
No such sign/sticker/decal. There was something about protecting yourself or your children or something like that, though.

BrokerB
07-14-2012, 12:26 PM
yes LTC..not LTD...stupid phone auto spell


LTD is also means CCW..meaning CONCEALED Carry: )'

You ever been to an "urban " safeway late night?..freak show

evilbeef54
07-14-2012, 12:32 PM
I also used this link
http://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/Comments#iframetop
We had a similar situation in AZ with some Bashas’ stores that started posting signs. The owner of the chain is a huge gun supporter and CCW holder and had NO idea that this was going on. It ended up being some store managers who thought they were doing a good thing… here’s what I filled out in that comment form…..


Dear Sir or Ma'am,

I am writing you to inform you of a major safety concern I have in regards to your store at:

7499 Dublin Boulevard
Dublin, CA

I have always been a loyal Safeway customer; however I feel that I am being forced to take my business elsewhere for the safety of my family. Yesterday as I was entering your store I noticed a small sign on the door that states:

"NO FIREARMS ALLOWED"

While initially this might seem a safe and prudent policy it only takes a second thought to realize that this creates a more dangerous environment. The descent, law abiding, licensed to carry citizens, who would not otherwise cause problems will follow the sign and either leave their firearm in their vehicle or shop elsewhere. However the criminal minded person intent on doing wrong will ignore the sign and continue on to do whatever wrong they set about to do. The only thing this policy does is take the means of self defense and defense of others away from the honest law abiding citizen.

One does not need to look very hard to see examples of violence in our society today with robbery, kidnapping, and assaults prevalent in our news. Your store is no exception to this including such recent events in my area as the June 2012 armed robbery of a Safeway customer in Concord, CA in your parking lot, and the nationally famous May 2012 assault of a pregnant woman that took place in your store in Monterey, CA. These recent stories just point out the flaw in your policy. Criminals will do what they set out to do regardless of a policy, which is why they are criminals. All you have done is taken the means of self defense and defense of others away from law abiding citizens.

I certainly hope that this sign is not an "Official Safeway" policy but instead on local store managers idea, and that it can be resolved immediately. Until such time as this sign is removed I feel that I must do that is best for my family and take my business elsewhere.

Respectfully,

dustoff31
07-14-2012, 1:21 PM
Arrested for trespassing? no. Cited with a promise to appear in court. probably.

A citation is an arrest. Your signature on the notice to appear is your "bail".

Nevertheless, you are still subject to being handcuffed, taken to jail, and booked. See kcbrown's recent post #157.

gotgunz
07-15-2012, 8:46 PM
Safeway on Highway 65, in Lincoln, had the signs up today and the manager I spoke to said they had been up for quite awhile.

He also stated that corporate doesn't listen to the employees but will listen to customers who complain to the head office.

LexLuther
07-15-2012, 11:46 PM
For the people who are in the ill just shop there anyway camp...have you considered what political campaigns Safeway is supporting if they are also anti 2A?

I am surprised to see this in Redding. I know every cent I spend at Safeway, and I will look it up tomorrow as I was a loyal customer. I think we should get the word out...

The manager of the Redding store told me it was corporates decision and she had no control over it. I had a very nice conversation with her, but she said there was nothing that she could do. I wonder which truth is the truth??:confused:

jdberger
07-16-2012, 12:05 AM
Having only recently returned from a family emergency out of state, I found these stickers in place at my local supermarket as well.
I didn't know if its because a BIGBUCKS COFFEE is just inside the doorway, or not.

Not terribly familiar with Starbucks' policy on firearms, are you?

Google: open carry, Starbucks, Brady and do some reading.

Mountain Max
07-16-2012, 1:26 AM
I know this doesn't apply to off-duty law enforcement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act#Conflict_betwe en_LEOSA_and_other_laws

Or the people I've been seeing at Safeway (SF Peninsula) with glock outlines under their shirts are all CCW holders?

From http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/california.pdf :

Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“NO”
“Handgunlaw.us highly recommends that you not enter a place that is posted "No Firearms" no matter what the state laws read/mean on signage. We recommend you print out the No Guns = No Money Cards and give one to the owner of the establishment that has the signage." As responsible gun owners and upholders of the 2nd Amendment we should also honor the rights of property owners to control their own property even if we disagree with them.”
“No Firearm” signs in California have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.

SoCalXD
07-16-2012, 12:28 PM
The laws of trespass are not enforceable here in California by private citizens or corporations. If you want someone off your property, even the if it's a psycho next door neighbor, screaming at your front door (ask me how I know!), you had better call the police and wait it out... just because you post a sign, claiming your property rights, or the specific Do's and Don'ts when on your property, doesn't mean that the State hasn't already taken away your power to enforce those property rights! As an Invitee and/or Guest of Safeway/Vons, I can never be classified under law as a trespasser... at least not for that first confrontational visit! (and practiclly, not for return visits either... unless there is an active restraining order in place, LEO's don't arrest for trespass).


I've sent Safeway a nasty email, calling them Union Statists, and informed them that I will be ending my 10+ years of shopping at Safeway/Vons, since they don't trust Law abiding, X-Army, X-Law Enforcement types to be armed in their "Safety-Free", "Free-Fire" zones.

And hey, walmart is in the same parking lot and they have lots of spare handgun ammo in the sporting good section, if you ever find yourself in an extended firefight with those armed felons who just came from robbing all the unarmed sheep at Vons/Safeway :D


Good Answer.

I would only add that you are not liable on any gun related charges, but it is a tresspass. Trespassing is a crime. If one doesn't leave when told to, or returns after being told to leave, they may be arrested for trespassing.

Gray Peterson
07-16-2012, 1:21 PM
I've sent Safeway a nasty email, calling them Union Statists, and informed them that I will be ending my 10+ years of shopping at Safeway/Vons, since they don't trust Law abiding, X-Army, X-Law Enforcement types to be armed in their "Safety-Free", "Free-Fire" zones.

And hey, walmart is in the same parking lot and they have lots of spare handgun ammo in the sporting good section, if you ever find yourself in an extended firefight with those armed felons who just came from robbing all the unarmed sheep at Vons/Safeway :D

When gun owners send emails like underlined below, involving other politics on this issue, they shoot themselves in the foot and collectively undermine the effectiveness of all gun owners to the company they are targeting.

creekside
07-16-2012, 1:50 PM
The laws of trespass are not enforceable here in California by private citizens or corporations.

News to me and to the courts:

"As a general rule, landowners and tenants have a right to exclude persons from trespassing on private property; the right to exclude persons is a fundamental aspect of private property ownership." -- Allred v. Harris (1993) 14 Cal.App.4th 1386, 1390 [18 Cal.Rptr.2d 530]

California Penal Code Sections 602 and 837 have something to say on the matter as well, but as a little knowledge is dangerous, I will say no more.

If you want someone off your property, even the if it's a psycho next door neighbor, screaming at your front door (ask me how I know!), you had better call the police and wait it out...

Increasingly, the cops just aren't coming. What is a property owner to do when PD is not available, not responding and/or just plain not interested?

just because you post a sign, claiming your property rights, or the specific Do's and Don'ts when on your property, doesn't mean that the State hasn't already taken away your power to enforce those property rights!

A sign saying "No Firearms Allowed" is a rule, not a law.

As an Invitee and/or Guest of Safeway/Vons, I can never be classified under law as a trespasser... at least not for that first confrontational visit! (and practiclly, not for return visits either... unless there is an active restraining order in place, LEO's don't arrest for trespass).

When a person is asked to leave by someone who has control of the property, and they fail to leave as ordered, the person is committing a criminal trespass.

Just because a business is open to the public does not mean that the business cannot ask people to leave when they clearly are not present to engage in any transaction with that business.

What the police do is up to the police. What the business does is up to the business. "Frequent flyers" or habitual trespassers can find themselves not only on the wrong side of restraining orders and the like, but placed under either private or public arrest.

Trying bringing a video camera with you on your next visit to a retail store and taping them the same way they are taping you. You will be trespassed so fast your head will spin.

I've sent Safeway a nasty email, calling them Union Statists, and informed them that I will be ending my 10+ years of shopping at Safeway/Vons, since they don't trust Law abiding, X-Army, X-Law Enforcement types to be armed in their "Safety-Free", "Free-Fire" zones.

Facepalm.

And hey, walmart is in the same parking lot and they have lots of spare handgun ammo in the sporting good section, if you ever find yourself in an extended firefight with those armed felons who just came from robbing all the unarmed sheep at Vons/Safeway :D

Not in Alameda or Contra Costa County, they don't.

Pandanin
07-16-2012, 2:24 PM
I sent a note via their feedback form.

Do us all a favor, please be polite if you choose to write them. Acting like a jerk isn't helping anyone.

mag360
07-16-2012, 2:34 PM
called safeway, was actually put on hold for THIRTY FIVE minutes.

I asked them who put the signs there and why, is it a corporate policy or what. He said he would need to have public affairs follow up with me.

When he asked about the signs I told him the following cities/stores have signs posted.

safeway no firearms signs.

rancho cordova
alameda
oakland
san jose
danville
rivermark safeway santa clara
hollister
mchenry ave, Modesto

I also told him that there are lots of people in California that will not be shopping at your store until they take these down including myself (gave him my safeway club card #) and kindly asked him to look into why these signs are going up.

kcbrown
07-16-2012, 6:32 PM
Just because a business is open to the public does not mean that the business cannot ask people to leave when they clearly are not present to engage in any transaction with that business.


The problem here is that the people who would be asked to leave are there to engage in a transaction with that business, and that can be made quite clear.

But stores can choose whom they wish to do business with. There are certain classes of people they cannot discriminate against by law, but firearm owners are not, as a group, such a class.

I suspect that political persuasion is another trait that a business can discriminate on the basis of.

IVC
07-16-2012, 7:52 PM
But stores can choose whom they wish to do business with. There are certain classes of people they cannot discriminate against by law, but firearm owners are not, as a group, such a class.

This is the main point - there is limit on discrimination, otherwise it's up to the store.

However, there is a tricky detail with concealed carry. They can ban it the same way they can ban, e.g., pink underwear. If it's out of sight, there is no legal way for the store to find out, so there is no way for them to enforce such a rule. Even if they do find out, the only remedy is to ask one to leave.

my70mav
07-16-2012, 8:08 PM
I noticed the signs at both entrances at the Safeway in Elk Grove on Calvine and Elk Grove Florin today. One of the signs was actually posted upside down. Now I have to go somewhere else for my Cheese-its.

kcbrown
07-16-2012, 8:09 PM
This is the main point - there is limit on discrimination, otherwise it's up to the store.

However, there is a tricky detail with concealed carry. They can ban it the same way they can ban, e.g., pink underwear. If it's out of sight, there is no legal way for the store to find out, so there is no way for them to enforce such a rule.


For now, yes. Technology will eventually come to their rescue. Indeed, it's entirely possible that the anti-gun states and localities may pass laws "helping" in this respect. I won't say any more on that for fear of giving them ideas (just this alone may be too much said already).



Even if they do find out, the only remedy is to ask one to leave.

Yep.

LexLuther
07-16-2012, 8:43 PM
I shopped there for the last 15 years, I spent $3,742 per year at Safeway over the last two years...

To quote NSync:
"Don't wanna be a fool for you...
It might sound crazy,
But it ain't no lie,
Baby, bye, bye, bye"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKpLc374bc

Lugiahua
07-16-2012, 8:50 PM
Last time I check, Moraga safeway doesn't have it
And it has a number of gun magazines.

kimber_ss
07-16-2012, 9:48 PM
Always duck tape a piece of wood to your cell phone and slide that into it's receiver under your shirt. Then go in and read gun magazines if they have any. When they escort you out call Kilmer. lol

Edit: don't forget a ringtone loop of your last range trip, with the phone volume turned up. J/K

LexLuther
07-17-2012, 7:16 AM
For those that plan to carry in Safeway against the wishes of the store, how will you explain this away to the DAor the jury? Why not just boycott and be safe while sending a message every time you shop?

SanPedroShooter
07-17-2012, 7:30 AM
Is ignoring a little sticker on the door a crime? I suppose in the unlikely event my gun was exposed, they could ask me to leave, just like if I went in with no shirt or shoes...

None of the LA area stores have this sticker, I've been checking. It seems like a bay area/central district issue.

redcliff
07-17-2012, 7:52 AM
For those that plan to carry in Safeway against the wishes of the store, how will you explain this away to the DAor the jury? Why not just boycott and be safe while sending a message every time you shop?

Could you tell us what law they are breaking by ignoring Safeway's rule?

Old_Bald_Guy
07-17-2012, 1:11 PM
For those that plan to carry in Safeway against the wishes of the store, how will you explain this away to the DAor the jury? Why not just boycott and be safe while sending a message every time you shop?

Exactly what do you figure this DA is gonna be putting you in front of a jury FOR? It's already been made clear in the thread (to those who didn't already know) that carrying with a valid LTC in such a situation is not a crime. The elements of trespass were explained as well.

I don't carry in such situations. I don't want to risk my issuing agency pulling my license. That's NOT the same as being charged with a crime. In the Safeway example, there's no gun crime, and it's only trespass if certain previously described conditions are met.

AfghanVetOrcutt
07-17-2012, 1:34 PM
The laws of trespass are not enforceable here in California by private citizens or corporations. If you want someone off your property, even the if it's a psycho next door neighbor, screaming at your front door (ask me how I know!), you had better call the police and wait it out... just because you post a sign, claiming your property rights, or the specific Do's and Don'ts when on your property, doesn't mean that the State hasn't already taken away your power to enforce those property rights! As an Invitee and/or Guest of Safeway/Vons, I can never be classified under law as a trespasser... at least not for that first confrontational visit! (and practiclly, not for return visits either... unless there is an active restraining order in place, LEO's don't arrest for trespass).

You, sir, need to do some more reading/research. If you are on privately owned property you CAN be asked to leave. If you do not comply you can be lawfully detained by the property owner or any representative of the property owner (i.e. employee or security guard) until the police arrive to arrest/cite/escort you off site.

"California Penal Code 602 PC (and its related sections) penalize over 30 acts that constitute criminal trespassing
The most common acts that California trespassing laws prohibit are:

-Entering someone else’s property with the intent to damage that property
-Entering someone else’s property with the intent to interfere with or obstruct the business activities conducted thereon
-Entering and "occupying" another’s property without permission, and
-Refusing to leave private property after you’ve been asked to do so"

It is hard to get a conviction but they can get you off their property and ban you from returning.

winnre
07-17-2012, 1:49 PM
I'll cay to protect myself. Sure hope no employees are at risk, but if they are, they just need to quit and I'll help them ;-)

LexLuther
07-17-2012, 2:41 PM
Could you tell us what law they are breaking by ignoring Safeway's rule?

None, I am not raising a question on the law. It's more along the lines of potentially having to explain why you disregarded the posted desire of the property owner. Is it that important to be able to shop there?

creekside
07-17-2012, 2:45 PM
She gave me the number to their Loss Prevention Officer (I think for the Northern California Division). His name is XXXX and he can be reached at XXXX. I will be giving him a call during my lunch break and I suggest that any others in the area do the same.

I don't think Mr. XXXX wants his contact information out there in this way. If _you_ want to call because a Safeway manager gave you that number, that's fine . . . but hordes of people calling just makes his job and life more difficult, which will not leave a good impression.

It's also not outside the realm of possibility that someone from the other side may call and pretend to be a "rabid gun net" c.f. Senator Yee's anti-BB campaign and his Chief of Staff Adam Keigwin's Twitters about racism and threats.

cranemech
07-17-2012, 8:00 PM
For those that plan to carry in Safeway against the wishes of the store, how will you explain this away to the DAor the jury? Why not just boycott and be safe while sending a message every time you shop?

This is my plan.

If they don't support us, why should we support them? There are grocery stores out there that don't have these restrictions.

curtisfong
07-17-2012, 9:51 PM
One more time: boycotts do not work. Period.

SoCalXD
07-17-2012, 11:32 PM
No Sign in Vons San Diego/Murphy Canyon. I talked to an assistant manager; she didn't know anything about a no firearms policy. Sent an email to them, recieved following:

web.comments@customerservice.safeway.com via hotmail.com
10:20 PM (52 minutes ago)
Reply
Mr. [SocalXD]:

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding our ‘no firearms’ sign posted outside some of our Vons stores.

We appreciate the time you have taken to share your feedback. Your comments will be directed to our Public Affairs Department for further review.

Mr. [SoCalXD], should you require further assistance, you may reply to this email or phone us at 1-877-723-3929 and reference Contact ID 22070476. One of our associates will be happy to assist you.

Sincerely,

Vons Customer Service Team


Since I already stopped shopping there six month ago due to their high Union-jacked prices, I guess this will be just one additional reason not to consider going back!

NoJoke
07-18-2012, 7:53 AM
Got this today:
"Mr. NoJoke

Thank you for your recent correspondence.

We do thank you for taking the time to write us regarding an incident that might have occurred at one of our San Francisco stores. We sincerely apologize for the inconveniences. We would like to properly document your concerns. Please reply to this email with more information concerning any incidents that might have occurred so that we may address the incident further.

We appreciate the additional comments.

Mr. Morris, should you require further assistance, you may reply to this email or phone us at 1-877-723-3929 and reference Contact ID 22072212. One of our associates will be happy to assist you.

Thank you for shopping at Safeway.

Sincerely,

Safeway Customer Service Team "

Wiz-of-Awd
07-18-2012, 8:24 AM
One more time: boycotts do not work. Period.

I've got to agree with this, at least in the case of this issue and the grocery stores.

Realistically, none of these stores will ever notice a change in business or revenue from the lack of gun owners purchasing their goods.

Sorry guys, but it's just the truth.

Feel free of course to boycott and shop elsewhere, but no message will be sent beyond those written and mailed in to the respective corporate offices. Perhaps enough of these will make a difference.

A.W.D.

JimSar
07-18-2012, 9:22 AM
Realistically, none of these stores will ever notice a change in business or revenue from the lack of gun owners purchasing their goods.

...

Feel free of course to boycott and shop elsewhere, but no message will be sent beyond those written and mailed in to the respective corporate offices. Perhaps enough of these will make a difference.



Most of the time it is not the revenue hit that makes corporations respond to "boycotts". It is the BAD publicity. Hopefully we, the gun owning "public" can frame this in such a way that will show the irrational nature of this policy. If the general public will perceive that it puts them in greater danger, we can effect a change.

Is this something that the Calguns organization can or willing to tackle in an organized manner?

NotEnufGarage
07-18-2012, 9:23 AM
One more time: boycotts do not work. Period.

I've got to agree with this, at least in the case of this issue and the grocery stores.

Realistically, none of these stores will ever notice a change in business or revenue from the lack of gun owners purchasing their goods.

Sorry guys, but it's just the truth.

Feel free of course to boycott and shop elsewhere, but no message will be sent beyond those written and mailed in to the respective corporate offices. Perhaps enough of these will make a difference.

A.W.D.

If, however, you're a Safeway Cliub Card user and provide that information in your letter to them, they can quantify what they will lose. I checked my yearly Amex statement (which I use most of the time) and I spent $7500 there last year. I'm sure the store right across the street would love to have that revenue and if Safeway Corporate adds up enough totals like that, they might reconsider their stand.

weimarccw
07-18-2012, 10:39 AM
I will no longer shop at Safeway.

As for all who are stating, "concealed is concealed," or, "what sign? I didn't see a sign," consider this:

My ccw in Placer is up for renewal. In prepping for my renewal, I reviewed the FAQ's on the Sheriff's site. Look at what popped up as a newly added restriction as item III.

Q: What Restrictions are placed on All Placer County Sheriff’s Office Permit Holders


A. Failure of the permit holder to adhere to any of the following restrictions will result in the revocation of the concealed weapon(s) permit:

I. While exercising the permit and carrying a weapon, no alcohol consumption is permitted.
II. No permitted weapon is allowed where weapons are prohibited by law.
III. No permitted weapon is allowed at locations where a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.
IV. The Sheriff may impose additional restrictions.

Paladin
07-18-2012, 3:17 PM
Safeway is afraid that if armed BGs try robbing the place, GGs might actually be able to defend themselves, like this story from Good Morning America today:
http://gma.yahoo.com/florida-man-71-shoots-alleged-robbers-internet-cafe-110406403--abc-news-topstories.html

Or when an ex-spouse wants to kill an employee, some patron might save their life, like this
soZT__WQKsM

Nope, better for everyone to lay at the feet of the evildoers and beg for mercy.... :mad:

Old_Bald_Guy
07-18-2012, 5:24 PM
More likely, they're worried about someone trying to intervene during a robbery with less judgment and skill than the situation requires. The actual likelihood of that, whatever it may be, probably doesn't factor into their corporate equation.

jrwhitt
07-18-2012, 5:33 PM
More likely, they're worried about someone trying to intervene during a robbery with less judgment and skill than the situation requires. The actual likelihood of that, whatever it may be, probably doesn't factor into their corporate equation.

You mean like their staff member they fired for intervening in a domestic dispute in the store ? (Note he was reinstated once it hit the press and enough people complained).

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/05/15/monterey-county-safeway-worker-suspended-after-stopping-assault/



DEL REY OAKS, Monterey County (CBS 5) – Safeway has suspended an employee at a Monterey County store, despite being called a hero by police for stopping a domestic assault in the store last month.

Ryan Young, a meat clerk at the Safeway in Del Rey Oaks, said he was doing his job when he saw Quyen Van Tran beating his girlfriend, who is six months pregnant.

SanPedroShooter
07-18-2012, 7:09 PM
Looking at the location of all the stickers, all in central California, also the home of LCAV and the stonghold of local brady chapters, could this not be a pre-emptive strike against gun owners?

Occupy the field before we even show up so to speak? Does anyone know if LCAV blasts off letters asking for major corps or municipalities to put these signs up?

Working quietly would not arouse any opposition. We all just wake up to 'No Firearms' everywhere and anywhere anti gun types can convince anyone to put one up. If the district manager of Central California was persuaded, would that not explain the concentration of sign in that region, and none down here?

kcbrown
07-18-2012, 8:33 PM
Looking at the location of all the stickers, all in central California, also the home of LCAV and the stonghold of local brady chapters, could this not be a pre-emptive strike against gun owners?

Occupy the field before we even show up so to speak? Does anyone know if LCAV blasts off letters asking for major corps or municipalities to put these signs up?

Working quietly would not arouse any opposition. We all just wake up to 'No Firearms' everywhere and anywhere anti gun types can convince anyone to put one up. If the district manager of Central California was persuaded, would that not explain the concentration of sign in that region, and none down here?

Told you this would happen (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3764491&postcount=88).

decepticon6551
07-18-2012, 9:40 PM
I've got to agree with this, at least in the case of this issue and the grocery stores.

Realistically, none of these stores will ever notice a change in business or revenue from the lack of gun owners purchasing their goods.

Sorry guys, but it's just the truth.

Feel free of course to boycott and shop elsewhere, but no message will be sent beyond those written and mailed in to the respective corporate offices. Perhaps enough of these will make a difference.

A.W.D.

I'm ok not shopping there on principle.

There are a number of places I choose not to spend my money. I understand I'm not killing their business, but if I don't like their policies and/or staff, they don't get any more of MY money.

Safeway is now on the list.

DrDavid
07-18-2012, 10:10 PM
I checked my local Vons (Corona).. There are no signs regarding Firearms at all.

SanPedroShooter
07-19-2012, 6:21 AM
Told you this would happen (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3764491&postcount=88).


As far as I know, no one has brought up the idea of a pre-emptive strike in the bay area, which looks more and more likely given there are no stickers south of the central valley...

As for your theory, I think that has been tried on various degrees of success in othe newly created shall issue states. I dont think it matters as much as you may think. Once people have the guns and are carrying them, that train has left the station.... Every holophobe will be left to wonder if that guy, or that guy is ignoring his little sign...

Now if the state gets involved, which they will, things could change, but right now, a little sticker on door full of them doesnt really intrest me. I carry a concealed weapon, and stay the hell out federal buildings and such, every where else......

kcbrown
07-19-2012, 2:05 PM
Now if the state gets involved, which they will, things could change, but right now, a little sticker on door full of them doesnt really intrest me. I carry a concealed weapon, and stay the hell out federal buildings and such, every where else......

The point is that the state will get involved, and there'll be nothing we can do about it, precisely because property rights are involved.

JimSar
07-20-2012, 10:35 AM
This may be a good time to gently nudge Safeway into reconsidering this policy. Today's papers reported that its profits are down nearly 16% from last year's numbers, and its stock price is at its lowest in 16 years. Cited as its greatest challenge is competition; from lower end (Grocery Outlet, Dollar Stores, etc) higher end (Whole Foods, Fresh & Easy, etc) and the likes of WalMart, Target, and Trader Joes.

http://business-news.thestreet.com/contra-costa-times/story/safeway-profit-plummets-nearly-16-percent-amid-consumer-gloom/1

NotEnufGarage
07-20-2012, 10:50 AM
This may be a good time to gently nudge Safeway into reconsidering this policy. Today's papers reported that its profits are down nearly 16% from last year's numbers, and its stock price is at its lowest in 16 years. Cited as its greatest challenge is competition; from lower end (Grocery Outlet, Dollar Stores, etc) higher end (Whole Foods, Fresh & Easy, etc) and the likes of WalMart, Target, and Trader Joes.

http://business-news.thestreet.com/contra-costa-times/story/safeway-profit-plummets-nearly-16-percent-amid-consumer-gloom/1

How do we get this started? Start handing the customer service reps a card telling them why we'll never shop there when we turn in our Club card?

JimSar
07-20-2012, 11:13 AM
How do we get this started? Start handing the customer service reps a card telling them why we'll never shop there when we turn in our Club card?
I don't know if a "boycott" or even turning in one's Club Card will catch on, since most people shop for convenience and not store loyalty or even "principle". Most, I think, won't cut their nose to spite their face.

To echo your statement, how do we get started and get Safeway executives' attention? Any ideas out there?

From another thread, it says that Aurora, CO and Cinemark Theaters have banned guns from theaters.

MisplacedTexan
07-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Not to get into a huge argument on this, but I thought if it was posted by a private business, you weren't allowed to CCW on their property. Just trying to clarify.

I could use an education on this - no CCW permit for me, so just for information - Safeway is a NYSE listed company - so wouldn't that make it a "public" entity and one that wouldn't be a "private" business???????

roushstage2
07-20-2012, 2:31 PM
I could use an education on this - no CCW permit for me, so just for information - Safeway is a NYSE listed company - so wouldn't that make it a "public" entity and one that wouldn't be a "private" business???????
The "public" you are thinking of is government property, not a publicly traded company. It is still a privately owned business on private property.

JimSar
07-20-2012, 9:32 PM
I just ran across this free "No Guns No Money" card templates:

http://www.learntocarry.com/nogunsnomoney/

Back side needs to be modified for California.

model63
07-20-2012, 10:42 PM
Vallejo Robles Drive has it....given what has happened at that store in my time here (shooting of bank employee, robbery(s), security guard overpowered, same security guard later killed by another guy on an rampage of four people as part of a love triangle and having worked there in my youth I know that little sign prevents nothing. By most accounts that is the 'safer' Safeway to shop at compared to others in town.... so do I want to respect others property rights, yes... do I want to live...yes. Will I be able to respect those rights six feet deep, no. I feel like if we ever get Shall issue LTC through the courts in CA, the legislature will try to triangulate us against property rights and push higher insurance rates/increased fees or something for places that don't post signs or conform to their agenda, etc.....pitting business against the populace to do their bidding....and convince us that corporations are people too (did I hear that before?). To me this is a disturbing trend....the state assembly/senators won't back down on.

JimSar
07-21-2012, 12:59 AM
Vallejo Robles Drive has it....given what has happened at that store in my time here (shooting of bank employee, robbery(s), security guard overpowered, same security guard later killed by another guy on an rampage of four people as part of a love triangle and having worked there in my youth I know that little sign prevents nothing. By most accounts that is the 'safer' Safeway to shop at compared to others in town....

Vallejo Lincoln Rd Safeway has it too, as well as the one in American Canyon. Haven't checked the Admiral Callaghan store, but it's probably safe to assume it also has the signs.

BTW model63, I bank at the Wells Fargo inside that Robles Drive Safeway. Knew the guard you mentioned, as well as the teller who was shot by the bank robber. I've shopped there since it was a Fry's Supermarket, then a SaveMart, long before it became a Safeway.

460_Smith_Wesson
07-21-2012, 3:27 AM
It is important to note that these signs posted on any business entity come from upper managements, where they are either NOT in those premises or
at least are behind closed doors...so, they don't care at all.

God forbids if something happens to any business, then crooks won't come in
asking for the manager, rather they go straight to the poor employees at the
cash registers...

Define Stupidity...

roushstage2
07-21-2012, 3:55 AM
Define Stupidity...

SB249 :chris:

Back on topic all :D

DParker
07-21-2012, 9:03 AM
I retired from Vons/Safeway as a store manager back in '97. Before Safeway took over Vons, we were very pro-active about thieves and safety. Vons loss prevention agents even carried guns with the permission of the company. (my brother was one for years) After Safeway took over, the bean-counters were in charge. They stripped loss prevention down to a shell and they forbid us from approaching or confronting thieves. Far too scared of a lawsuit or a claim for false arrest.

I'm not surprised at all that they would post 'no gun' signs. Thankfully most ccw people will ignore them.

tommyid1
07-22-2012, 10:29 AM
What's store was it. I'm gonna go talk to them

SanPedroShooter
07-22-2012, 10:34 AM
Its every store in central california it seems. No LA, nothing north of Sac.

I still say LCAV preemptive strike.

JimSar
07-22-2012, 2:59 PM
...
I'm not surprised at all that they would post 'no gun' signs. Thankfully most ccw people will ignore them.

I'm an editorial contributor to a local news website (www.ibvallejo.com), so last week I decided to write a short but thought provoking article about this Safeway policy. Started an outline, even decided on the title, "Are We Safer at Safeway?". Then that "thing" happened in Colorado. Upon further review, I decided to let sleeping dogs lie. Our county issues CCW. The Sheriff will retire soon. Our Chief of Police has just retired. With this forthcoming leadership changes, I think it's prudent to go under the radar rather than risk jeopardizing our CCW issuance and renewal status. So, for now, probably best to just ignore the signs.

kcbrown
07-22-2012, 6:59 PM
Its every store in central california it seems. No LA, nothing north of Sac.

I still say LCAV preemptive strike.

I'm inclined to agree. And I don't see how we can defend against it.

The Safeway near where I live also has such a sign.

BigBamBoo
07-22-2012, 7:51 PM
The Cypress St. Redding Safeway has stickers on their doors. Very small....about 2"x6".

jrwhitt
07-22-2012, 9:04 PM
In every store there is a Customer Comment card that can be filled out. Comments provided via that route are proved to be from active customers and go up the Divisional Management chain. I'd suggest filling one out in each store you visit and expressing your displeasure.

bluewrx
07-22-2012, 9:17 PM
If you are caught just say "I did not see the sign" or "what sign?" or "what are you talking a out?"

Nyanman
07-22-2012, 11:52 PM
Did not see one at my local Safeway. Considering the caliber of person who is always found in that particular parking lot, I would prefer to carry around there. Then again, there are three or four other grocery stores that also don't seem to have those signs and happen to have fairly nice patrons.
I haven't been to Safeway in a long time. This is just another reason not to. Thanks for sharing.

Old_Bald_Guy
07-23-2012, 7:23 AM
I haven't frequented Safeway since the local Raley's first opened, something like ten years ago. They don't ask me for a stupid card or my phone number at Raley's, for one thing.

redcliff
07-23-2012, 8:49 AM
The Cypress St. Redding Safeway has stickers on their doors. Very small....about 2"x6".

The Safeway at Cypress and Pine doesn't have one on the door closest to Cypress, haven't checked the other door as I like being able to say "what sign?".

I'll have to check the one at Cypress and Churn Creek which I assume you're referring to Stan.

Cos
07-23-2012, 3:39 PM
Checked a coupla safeways in the East Bay - no signs.

ucsdryder
07-23-2012, 9:45 PM
Did my part. Sent an email to Safeway with my membership code so they could see my loyalty. Told them to let me know when they change their policy and I will reevaluate my decision to shop at Raleys. Everyone needs to send this email!!!!

NotEnufGarage
07-25-2012, 2:25 PM
I finally received a reply from Keith W. Turner, Director Public and Government Affairs, NorCal Division of Safeway stating that carrying firearms or other dangerous wepaons on Safeway premises is stricly forbidden.

It sounds to me like some mid-level executive at corporate has decided to impose the corporate employee policies on customers, as well, at least in his division.

I've sent him a follow-up email and am waiting to hear back, at which case I'll ask for contact information for his direct superior.

For those who wish to ask him directly, his email is Keith.Turner@safeway.com

Old_Bald_Guy
07-25-2012, 2:54 PM
They just haven't gotten around to posting the signs at all the stores. I was going to post info for a particular store, but I can't see any reason to make a list for them. It's their corporation; let them do the work.

Glock22Fan
07-25-2012, 3:27 PM
I just got a bland reply from them saying that they will refer my comments to their PR people.

PR people by heck! it's the G'darned senior management that should be making these decisions.

Old_Bald_Guy
07-25-2012, 4:13 PM
The PR people don't decide. They just package the info and communicate it.

No one here, individually or collectively, is likely to have an impact on Safeway's anti-gun stance. The down side (as they perceive it) of backing away from this ridiculous and ineffectual policy is something they want to avoid. Their assessment is that there's no significant benefit positive enough justify eliminating that policy.

roushstage2
07-25-2012, 8:09 PM
I finally received a reply from Keith W. Turner, Director Public and Government Affairs, NorCal Division of Safeway stating that carrying firearms or other dangerous wepaons on Safeway premises is stricly forbidden.

Hmmm, what if one of their employees goes postal with the "dangerous weapons" they use to open boxes, or use in certain departments? It surprises me that this is [now] a corporate policy. Everyone up here at my Safeway (and SaveMart) always comments positively on my pro-2A shirts and usually has a story about themselves or someone they are related to. If you don't own a firearm, or daily carry a knife, you are in the minority up here.

DK1912
07-26-2012, 2:09 PM
As a Safeway Employee I thought I would give my insight and experiences about Safeway. Ive worked for Safeway in San Francisco for about 7 years. A couple of weeks ago I was walking with my stores assistant manager when he spotted the no firearms sign. He looked at it and proceed to rip it off the front door. He had no personal knowledge to the signs origin and thought a customer had placed it there. Believe it or not customers put up political stickers, band stickers and graffiti on the stores front door. I don't know if the store manager knew about the sign but his second in command sure didn't. I assume the sign was put there by the corporate office.
I cant ever see the no firearms policy ever being enforced at a Safeway store. My experience working at Safeway is that the company has a policy of customer appeasement. As long as you don't create a disturbance, damage property, or steal, a customer can do anything they want in the store.
The Safeway store I work at has a sign on the front door that says no dogs are allowed (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/Safeway-tries-to-enforce-service-animal-rule-3334176.php) in the store unless they are service animals. This sign is routinely ignored by customers on a daily basis. A couple of years ago a coworker of mine was disciplined by the corporate office for telling someone they couldn't have a dog in the store. On occasion the dogs will go to the bathroom on the stores floor. The mess is simply cleaned up and the customer goes on their merry way without a word ever being said to them.
I just cant imagine that a customer who is legally carrying a concealed weapon that unintentionally became exposed would be asked to leave the store. All they would have to do is complain to the stores manager for a period of time and they would fold and apologize to you. Really the last thing the manager wants is a customer complaining to them for 20 minutes. I'm sure if I told a customer they had to leave because they were in violation of Safeways no Firearm policy I would be reprimanded and punished if the customer complained.

I would urge everyone to write letters to the corporate office asking them to reverse the political policy but if I were a customer with a permit to carry I wouldnt worry about their sign.

NorCalDustin
08-04-2012, 2:13 AM
Placerville Safeway has a "No Firearms Allowed" sign in door window. It's very small and I would have never noticed it had I not been looking for it.

BigBamBoo
08-04-2012, 7:45 AM
The Safeway at Cypress and Pine doesn't have one on the door closest to Cypress, haven't checked the other door as I like being able to say "what sign?".

I'll have to check the one at Cypress and Churn Creek which I assume you're referring to Stan.

Yes sir....that be the one. I have not been in the Pine St. one since they redid it.

Take care,Stan

Jack L
08-04-2012, 8:26 AM
That sign is gangster code for "Come rob this store"

a1c
08-04-2012, 8:28 AM
Several things here.

- Safeway stores were always unionized, making it difficult for them to compete with Target or Walmart. Assuming that it's a choice for Safeway leadership to have unionized employees is ridiculous. It's not like they made that choice.

- CEO Burd is an evangelical Christian who actively supported George W. Bush's campaign.

- To my knowledge, the Safeway Foundation (its 503(c) arm) does not give to any anti-gun causes.

I was Googling to see if Safeway suddenly has a new policy, and I found this:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?99121-Safeway-Open-cary-policy-letter

I hope we don't have any open carry activists to thank for that one.

LexLuther
08-05-2012, 9:23 PM
The Safeway at Cypress and Pine doesn't have one on the door closest to Cypress, haven't checked the other door as I like being able to say "what sign?".

I'll have to check the one at Cypress and Churn Creek which I assume you're referring to Stan.

Wouldn't want to spend much time at this store, ESPECIALLY UNARMED there seems to be a bunch of crime in that area.

Can someone make a Cali version of this?
http://www.learntocarry.com/nogunsnomoney/

LexLuther
08-05-2012, 9:38 PM
If you are caught just say "I did not see the sign" or "what sign?" or "what are you talking a out?"

The Safeway at Cypress and Pine doesn't have one on the door closest to Cypress, haven't checked the other door as I like being able to say "what sign?"..

I don't understand how people ( these are just two examples) who should really understand the need to respect the rights of others can be so cavileer in saying basically "I don't care about your private property rights".

If you brought this attitude to my house, I'd be kicking your *** up between your shoulder blades.

UPDATE 8/6/12 the "you" shown in bold above is not a reference to a particular person, it is an oversimplification used in a statement that was meant to imply anyone in a generic sense and convey my dismay that people would treat other people with this much disrespect.

marcusrn
08-05-2012, 10:10 PM
This happened 10 years ago in Prescott Valley, Arizona and sales dropped so rapidly that they reversed their prohibition within months.

Not sure if it was safeway chain or another.

redcliff
08-05-2012, 10:34 PM
I don't understand how people ( these are just two examples) who should really understand the need to respect the rights of others can be so cavileer in saying basically "I don't care about your private property rights".

If you brought this attitude to my house, I'd be kicking your *** up between your shoulder blades.

What about Safeway not caring about our 2nd amendment rights and in the case of CCW holder's their State granted rights? What makes their policy sign more important?

If they see that I'm carrying (something that hasn't happened in over 30 years of having a ccw) and ask me to leave I'll respect their right and leave, which is the extent of their rights over me. Otherwise their sign (if the Safeway I go to even has one, I still haven't seen one) has no force of law and is merely a business policy sign.

And knock off the internet tough guy act; seriously, was that appropriate? I'm quite sure I have no interest in coming to your home if you fear law-abiding people with CCW's and I"m even more sure I won't be inviting you into mine.

wjc
08-05-2012, 10:40 PM
Be advised, I went to my local Safeway and noticed a "No Firearms" sticker on door.

It was very small and lost amid the jumble of advertising.

mmayer707
08-05-2012, 11:13 PM
I saw one of those no guns allowed stickers at the East Side San Jose Safeway (Story Road). I went there tonight to get something, and one of the entrances was closed. On that door was a no guns allowed sticker. I laughed my *** off. If you have ever been to this part of town you would be stupid not to have a gun! (sad thing is i didn't). The door on the other side was open though. Didn't see a sticker there. Honestly through, I wasn't looking for one. I was watching my back.......

LexLuther
08-06-2012, 7:20 AM
What about Safeway not caring about our 2nd amendment rights and in the case of CCW holder's their State granted rights? What makes their policy sign more important?

If they see that I'm carrying (something that hasn't happened in over 30 years of having a ccw) and ask me to leave I'll respect their right and leave, which is the extent of their rights over me. Otherwise their sign (if the Safeway I go to even has one, I still haven't seen one) has no force of law and is merely a business policy sign.

And knock off the internet tough guy act; seriously, was that appropriate? I'm quite sure I have no interest in coming to your if you fear law-abiding people with CCW's and I"m even more sure I won't be inviting you into mine.

What makes it more important, is that it's their property. Shouldn't they have the right to say no, on their property?

It's not a tough guy act, I just don't understand someone who would willfully violate the rights or wishes of another.

ThePatriot
08-06-2012, 7:32 AM
This is an oversimplification. Love it or hate it, there is a concept of "publicly accessible private property." If it was treated the same as the restricted private property, we could have GFSZ on steroids. One would have to have a detailed map of all property boundaries, know who all the owners are and keep track of all the arbitrary rules set up by the owners.

Imagine the owner of a parking lot also owning a part of the sidewalk, then deciding to have a "no flip flops" rule. You walk by minding your own business and get arrested for "violation of rules." Ignorance is no excuse, so off you go to face the DA.

If you want private-private, you can set up fencing and limit the access any way you want. However, the burden is on you to say "sorry, you can't enter."

As a side issue, the GFSZ is so malicious precisely because it intentionally applies private-private concept to the public-private property (in case of government it's public-public, but it's the same concept). It doesn't make schools safer, but it certainly creates a legal minefield as it is a felony.

This is correct - businesses that are open to the public waive some of their rights in issues of trespassing, so long as you enter through the public entrance - it is your choice whether or not to obey the sign.

redcliff
08-06-2012, 9:17 AM
What makes it more important, is that it's their property. Shouldn't they have the right to say no, on their property?

It's not a tough guy act, I just don't understand someone who would willfully violate the rights or wishes of another.

San Francisco would like to ban me and every other ccw holder from carrying on their property too, despite the State saying I can. Theres already been lawsuits in regard to public housing prohibitions on firearms ownership. But hey, I guess since it's their property we lose our rights under the constitution and state law right?

Next time you want to defend property rights try it with a Fish & Game agent who can come onto your posted property at any time without a warrant.

LexLuther
08-06-2012, 10:51 AM
We are not even discussing government property, or how rational gun laws are in San Francisco. I don't see the relevance of that statement.

Imagine if the tables were turned and you were the property owner, wouldn't you be / feel insulted by these excuses? Imagine if you got similar equally valid (by your logic) excuses to your no trespassing songs? By your logic, these would be valid excuses to violate your no trespassing signs... "I didn't think it applied to me because I have a right to free speech, or oh, I hopped the fence around the corner where there wasnt a notrespassing sign, or oh, I didn't think it applied because you didn't direct it specifically to me by name..." the excuses could go on forever, bottom line is, you would or should be insulted by them.

By your own argument, your signs mean nothing, so why would you be surprised to see F&G or anyone else for that matter on your property?.

I don't understand why people think their license to carry a firearm trumps a property owner who says "not in my store", and I don't understand why it is so darn important to continue to shop there if they don't support our 2A rights, or at least stay neutral.

redcliff
08-06-2012, 11:04 AM
We are not even discussing government property, or how rational gun laws are in San Francisco. I don't see the relevance of that statement.

Imagine if the tables were turned and you were the property owner, wouldn't you be / feel insulted by these excuses? Imagine if you got similar equally valid (by your logic) excuses to your no trespassing songs? By your logic, these would be valid excuses to violate your no trespassing signs... "I didn't think it applied to me because I have a right to free speech, or oh, I hopped the fence around the corner where there wasnt a notrespassing sign, or oh, I didn't think it applied because you didn't direct it specifically to me by name..." the excuses could go on forever, bottom line is, you would or should be insulted by them.

By your own argument, your signs mean nothing, so why would you be surprised to see F&G or anyone else for that matter on your property?.

I don't understand why people think their license to carry a firearm trumps a property owner who says "not in my store", and I don't understand why it is so darn important to continue to shop there if they don't support our 2A rights, or at least stay neutral.

I think you should of quit after threatening to kick my a**. You're really reaching now.

Under California law I can carry in their store, property rights or store policy be damned. If they discover I'm carrying they can ask me to leave; if I do no harm no foul.

If you don't agree with that then you can lobby to change the law. Otherwise get off my back; I really don't care if my ignoring their policy sign generated by some insurance underwriter hurts your feelings.

Nor do I care if you think I'm rude or disrespectul; you lost that battle at "kick your A** between your shoulder blades".

LexLuther
08-06-2012, 3:43 PM
I never threatened you in my words, or their intent, I am disappointed if that is how it is being interpeted. Clearly I have failed in my attempt to point out that we should simply respect their wishes on their property. I suppose you are right, the signs are meaningless.

kcbrown
08-06-2012, 4:42 PM
What makes it more important, is that it's their property. Shouldn't they have the right to say no, on their property?


Sure. But then, they take on the liability if someone on their property is injured or killed in an attack, since by the property owner's wishes, the patrons are unarmed.

Allow me to illustrate by way of analogy. Suppose a store owner has a "bare feet" policy. In order to enter, one must not be wearing anything on one's feet. Now suppose that someone in the store cuts their feet badly on the broken glass from a shattered bottle on the floor. The question is: is the store owner at least partly liable for the injury?

The answer is, of course, yes. Under the "property rights over everything else" model, the store owner has full control over the characteristics of who can and cannot enter the store. By enacting the "bare feet" policy, the store owner has ensured that everyone who enters the store consistent with that policy has bare feet and is thus exposed to the danger of badly cutting their feet on broken glass. When that danger is realized, all who contribute to the circumstances which manifest that danger are liable. Since the store owner contributed to the conditions which made that danger possible, he is at least partially liable.


The exact same logic applies directly to a "no firearms" policy. Because the business owner is setting up the circumstances of his customers being unarmed, he is responsible for the outcome, at least to the degree that the circumstances depend on him, in the event someone is unable to defend themselves and suffers as a result.


The bottom line is this: property rights give the property owner control over the property and what happens on it. But control carries with it responsibility. If you choose to exercise control over a situation, you also implicitly assume responsibility (and thus liability) for the consequences of that exercise. To attempt to argue otherwise is to attempt to argue that people should not be responsible for the consequences of their choices. That's not to say that those who abide by the property owner's wishes bear no responsibility -- they do. But the property owner also bears responsibility, because it is his insistence on control which sets up the circumstances to begin with.

Old_Bald_Guy
08-06-2012, 4:57 PM
No, the business owner is not responsible for any negative outcome of customers not being allowed to be armed. Why this myth persists is anyone's guess.