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View Full Version : One of those stores that won't do SSEs


hornswaggled
07-06-2012, 8:13 PM
Had a good convo with an old timer at one of the LGS'es I frequent. Cool guy, no issues. It was interesting when we started talking 1911s, and he mentioned he likes the new Remingtons but that they're not legal in CA. So I couldn't resist asking (knowing full well the answer), "You don't do SSEs huh?" He shakes his head and goes, "OH... NO NO NO! No. That's going to come around and bite a lot of people in the @ss."

I don't know why I'm posting this. Just a story. I continue to solely support LGS'es that do SSEs because they are sticking then necks out for the 2A.

Micro48
07-06-2012, 8:16 PM
I wounder what he thinks will happen to people who are following the law to the letter?

RMP91
07-06-2012, 8:16 PM
Had a good convo with an old timer at one of the LGS'es I frequent. Cool guy, no issues. It was interesting when we started talking 1911s, and he mentioned he likes the new Remingtons but that they're not legal in CA. So I couldn't resist asking (knowing full well the answer), "You don't do SSEs huh?" He shakes his head and goes, "OH... NO NO NO! No. That's going to come around and bite a lot of people in the @ss."

I don't know why I'm posting this. Just a story. I continue to solely support LGS'es that do SSEs because they are sticking then necks out for the 2A.

I personally wouldn't risk it either if I were him to be honest...

You never know when you'll encounter a "knowledgeable" LEO who has the entire CA Roster MEMORIZED (yes, ALL of it). He finds your off-roster gun, finds out you got it via SSE but you converted it back, you're gonna be in trouble...

hornswaggled
07-06-2012, 8:18 PM
I personally wouldn't risk it either if I were him to be honest...

You never know when you'll encounter a "knowledgeable" LEO who has the entire CA Roster MEMORIZED (yes, ALL of it). He finds your off-roster gun, finds out you got it via SSE but you converted it back, you're gonna be in trouble...

I don't think there's any law against replacing original parts in a legally owned handgun purchased through SSE. That's the magic of SSEs.

hornswaggled
07-06-2012, 8:20 PM
I wounder what he thinks will happen to people who are following the law to the letter?

That's what I was wondering too.

Micro48
07-06-2012, 8:21 PM
Isn't it legal to possess an off roster gun?

RMP91
07-06-2012, 8:22 PM
I don't think there's any law against replacing original parts in a legally owned handgun purchased through SSE. That's the magic of SSEs.

While I don't see anything that technically outlaws reconverting a SSE weapon in CA, it's just I personally would not risk it because it would just cause more legal problems than it's worth, just my take on it.

I'd rather have a perfectly legal gun on the roster than have an SSE'ed/converted "off-roster" gun and then encounter LEOs who either have a vague understanding of the roster or are just plain jealous :p

hornswaggled
07-06-2012, 8:25 PM
While I don't see anything that technically outlaws reconverting a SSE weapon in CA, it's just I personally would not risk it because it would just cause more legal problems than it's worth, just my take on it.

I'd rather have a perfectly legal gun on the roster than have an SSE'ed/converted "off-roster" gun and then encounter LEOs who either have a vague understanding of the roster or are just plain jealous :p

Yeah, definitely would be more careful about doing attention-drawing stuff with an off roster gun. Not a HD wep for sure.

Funtimes
07-06-2012, 8:32 PM
Yeah, definitely would be more careful about doing attention-drawing stuff with an off roster gun. Not a HD wep for sure.

If you were going to have one... that would probably be the best place to have it imo.

Micro48
07-06-2012, 8:37 PM
Maybe I'm off base, but in light of Heller, getting arrested for using an off roster handgun that you purchased legally through SSE, for home defense, seems like a pretty slam dunk lawsuit.

IVC
07-06-2012, 8:46 PM
Isn't it legal to possess an off roster gun?

<delete>Incorrectly read it as: "Isn't it illegal..."</delete>

Yes, it's legal...

IVC
07-06-2012, 8:51 PM
While I don't see anything that technically outlaws reconverting a SSE weapon in CA, it's just I personally would not risk it because it would just cause more legal problems than it's worth, just my take on it.

SSE is not an attribute of a weapon, it's a method of transfer.

Once you posses an off-roster handgun, the rules and legality are no different than if you got it through PPT from an LEO, through your out-of-state immediate family, or you moved to CA and brought it with you.

Even if SSE ends up being banned in the future, it wouldn't affect a handgun that you already legally posses.

IVC
07-06-2012, 8:59 PM
I continue to solely support LGS'es that do SSEs because they are sticking then necks out for the 2A.

Personal preference, but don't cut the other LGS short or throw them under the bus. They have a business to run and can lose their livelihood at a whim of a politician or a rogue DA.

There are some potential issues with the SSE process that haven't been tested in court yet.

hornswaggled
07-06-2012, 9:11 PM
Personal preference, but don't cut the other LGS short or throw them under the bus. They have a business to run and can lose their livelihood at a whim of a politician or a rogue DA.

There are some potential issues with the SSE process that haven't been tested in court yet.

Sure, I'll still buy from Turner's and such. But given the choice I'll help out the risk takers.

Munk
07-07-2012, 12:32 AM
While I don't see anything that technically outlaws reconverting a SSE weapon in CA, it's just I personally would not risk it because it would just cause more legal problems than it's worth, just my take on it.

I'd rather have a perfectly legal gun on the roster than have an SSE'ed/converted "off-roster" gun and then encounter LEOs who either have a vague understanding of the roster or are just plain jealous :p

Not sure if trying to get a rise out of people... so i'll go for it anyway.

If it's not "Technically" illegal, then it's not illegal. That's just how simple the law is.

Changing the barrel on your own gun has no more legal ramifications than changing the grips (provided you don't turn the gun into an NFA item or Short Barreled whatever: Those specific items ARE technically illegal). This applies to guns that are, and are not, on the roster.

If you buy a Gen3 or earlier G17, then swap the barrel for lonewolf or something, your configuration is no longer rostered (Oh noes). Does that mean that your gun is now less legal than it was before? Nope: It just limits your options for selling to other california residents who are unable to PPT with you.


Are there any laws at all that address adding the capacity to accept a detachable magazine? None. The only magazine restrictions we have are those that relate to capacity and shotguns as assault weapons (detachable mag). Do these apply to any pistol that you intend to use a 10 round mag with? no.

The roster law has a very clear and explicit set of dimensions and requirements that make any conforming pistol exempt from the restrictions imposed by the roster. No provision covers modification. No laws bar modification (excepting NFA items and assault weapons).

Then there's the possession of non-rostered pistols. Not a crime because that's not what the roster restricts. There are non SSE methods of getting them: Ownership before roster, importation when moving, intrafamilial transfer, bequest, and PPT.

Any LEO who has a "a vague understanding of the roster" as you put it, would understand that possession of a non-rostered pistol is not a crime, buying a non-rostered pistol is easily doable without SSE, and the SSE itself is so clearly spelled out in the law that even if they were watching the whole process from start to finish, there's no point where they could go "heyyyyy, that's illegal, i'm going to have to bust you for that".

And if a LEO has 100% of the roster laws and list memorized? FANTASTIC, that makes it even LESS likely that they'll falsely arrest you for a non-crime.

Unless the laws change in a drastic way, there are no interpretations that can make the SSE an illegal process, nor can it make the owners of such pistols into criminals.

The only sticking point in the process as it currently stands is what constitutes "manufacturing" a firearm. As the current legal opinions of the ATF stand, replacing "Drop-in" parts (such as a barrel and a magwell block: The entirety of a SSE kit) is NOT a manufacturing operation, and doesn't require an 07FFL.

RMP91, if you want to only purchase on-roster, that's your prerogative. This goes for people who willingly let the police search their vehicles without cause or warrant. It's their personal choice. It doesn't mean that it's a legal imperative, and it doesn't mean that doing otherwise is in any way legally risky. The only risk involved is running into an ignorant jerk of an officer anyway, and they'll find ways to ruin your day without having to pretend they know nothing of the roster laws.

Safety1st
07-07-2012, 12:56 AM
Extremely well said Munk.

451040
07-07-2012, 3:05 AM
I personally wouldn't risk it either if I were him to be honest...

You never know when you'll encounter a "knowledgeable" LEO who has the entire CA Roster MEMORIZED (yes, ALL of it). He finds your off-roster gun, finds out you got it via SSE but you converted it back, you're gonna be in trouble...
While I don't see anything that technically outlaws reconverting a SSE weapon in CA, it's just I personally would not risk it because it would just cause more legal problems than it's worth, just my take on it.

I'd rather have a perfectly legal gun on the roster than have an SSE'ed/converted "off-roster" gun and then encounter LEOs who either have a vague understanding of the roster or are just plain jealous :p


http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac284/451040/dur.gif

SanPedroShooter
07-07-2012, 5:16 AM
Not sure if trying to get a rise out of people... so i'll go for it anyway.

If it's not "Technically" illegal, then it's not illegal. That's just how simple the law is.

Changing the barrel on your own gun has no more legal ramifications than changing the grips (provided you don't turn the gun into an NFA item or Short Barreled whatever: Those specific items ARE technically illegal). This applies to guns that are, and are not, on the roster.

If you buy a Gen3 or earlier G17, then swap the barrel for lonewolf or something, your configuration is no longer rostered (Oh noes). Does that mean that your gun is now less legal than it was before? Nope: It just limits your options for selling to other california residents who are unable to PPT with you.


Are there any laws at all that address adding the capacity to accept a detachable magazine? None. The only magazine restrictions we have are those that relate to capacity and shotguns as assault weapons (detachable mag). Do these apply to any pistol that you intend to use a 10 round mag with? no.

The roster law has a very clear and explicit set of dimensions and requirements that make any conforming pistol exempt from the restrictions imposed by the roster. No provision covers modification. No laws bar modification (excepting NFA items and assault weapons).

Then there's the possession of non-rostered pistols. Not a crime because that's not what the roster restricts. There are non SSE methods of getting them: Ownership before roster, importation when moving, intrafamilial transfer, bequest, and PPT.

Any LEO who has a "a vague understanding of the roster" as you put it, would understand that possession of a non-rostered pistol is not a crime, buying a non-rostered pistol is easily doable without SSE, and the SSE itself is so clearly spelled out in the law that even if they were watching the whole process from start to finish, there's no point where they could go "heyyyyy, that's illegal, i'm going to have to bust you for that".

And if a LEO has 100% of the roster laws and list memorized? FANTASTIC, that makes it even LESS likely that they'll falsely arrest you for a non-crime.

Unless the laws change in a drastic way, there are no interpretations that can make the SSE an illegal process, nor can it make the owners of such pistols into criminals.

The only sticking point in the process as it currently stands is what constitutes "manufacturing" a firearm. As the current legal opinions of the ATF stand, replacing "Drop-in" parts (such as a barrel and a magwell block: The entirety of a SSE kit) is NOT a manufacturing operation, and doesn't require an 07FFL.

RMP91, if you want to only purchase on-roster, that's your prerogative. This goes for people who willingly let the police search their vehicles without cause or warrant. It's their personal choice. It doesn't mean that it's a legal imperative, and it doesn't mean that doing otherwise is in any way legally risky. The only risk involved is running into an ignorant jerk of an officer anyway, and they'll find ways to ruin your day without having to pretend they know nothing of the roster laws.

Thank you. I wonder how these threads can fill up with bull**** so fast and for so long.

God bless Calguns, someone always comes along with the shovel....

OleCuss
07-07-2012, 5:27 AM
I'm pretty risk-averse. It's a lot cheaper to avoid trouble than to pay for an attorney. . .

But I'd have little hesitation at going SSE. I just don't see any significant risk of arrest or having to spend big bucks on a lawyer.

I consider SSE to be a very low-risk proposition.

halifax
07-07-2012, 6:01 AM
Personal preference, but don't cut the other LGS short or throw them under the bus. They have a business to run and can lose their livelihood at a whim of a politician or a rogue DA.

There are some potential issues with the SSE process that haven't been tested in court yet.

+1, but a public forum is not the place to bring those "issues" to light; so, I won't.

Hint: Possession and selling are not the issue.

IVC
07-07-2012, 9:05 AM
I consider SSE to be a very low-risk proposition.

Exactly. The worst case scenario is that it ends up being considered a "loophole" and eliminated through legislation.

The key is that the end result of an SSE, the possession of an off-roster handgun, is not in itself a problem.

pc_load_letter
07-07-2012, 10:40 AM
My brother in law is a San Diego area PD (not SDPD) and I asked him if he knew what the roster was...Nope. He asked the guys on his shift too, not one knew what it was.

huntercf
07-07-2012, 10:50 AM
Thank you. I wonder how these threads can fill up with bull**** so fast and for so long.

God bless Calguns, someone always comes along with the shovel....

AMEN!

CBruce
07-07-2012, 11:40 AM
I wounder what he thinks will happen to people who are following the law to the letter?

When they get too bold, some legislator will come along and start a campaign to close the loopholes that allow dealers to flaunt the 'spirt of the law'.

Probably accompanied by some bit of progaganda showing an Uzi or Mac-10 being sold as SSE pistols, allowing thugs, drug-dealers, and gang members to get their hands on those deadly weapons.

Saym14
07-07-2012, 12:00 PM
I personally wouldn't risk it either if I were him to be honest...

You never know when you'll encounter a "knowledgeable" LEO who has the entire CA Roster MEMORIZED (yes, ALL of it). He finds your off-roster gun, finds out you got it via SSE but you converted it back, you're gonna be in trouble...

pls dont spread FUD

HowardW56
07-07-2012, 1:26 PM
I personally wouldn't risk it either if I were him to be honest...

You never know when you'll encounter a "knowledgeable" LEO who has the entire CA Roster MEMORIZED (yes, ALL of it). He finds your off-roster gun, finds out you got it via SSE but you converted it back, you're gonna be in trouble...

The laws address the configuration of a handgun at time of transfer, not modifications after purchase.

You can do action jobs or change the finish, that would differ from the way it was when transfered...

What if you cut down the barrel on a single action revolver, would that make the gun prohibited? What about converting a double action to a single action, no issue.

What about converting a Sig from SA/DA to DAO... No prohibition that I'm aware of...

mrdd
07-07-2012, 2:05 PM
I don't think there's any law against replacing original parts in a legally owned handgun purchased through SSE. That's the magic of SSEs.

There is no law against replacing parts of any handgun, even neglecting SSE.

So, if you change the grips on your 1911 it is no longer rostered.

TempleKnight
07-07-2012, 4:15 PM
There is no law against replacing parts of any handgun, even neglecting SSE.

So, if you change the grips on your 1911 it is no longer rostered.

Just looked in my safes; not a single firearm in them that hasn't been to the smith. Trigger work, sights, rebarreled, etc. Guess I'm in trouble.

DVSmith
07-07-2012, 4:34 PM
The comments in this thread just go to prove how convoluted our firearms laws are. It is really shame when the public has a hard time understanding what are and are not legal activities and who is at risk.

Unfortunately, even amongst our armchair experts there are variances in opinion on these subjects. Until someone ends up going to court, some questions will just be out there.

It is hard to blame a business owner for being cautious. If I had a successful sporting goods store and felt I did not need to participate in singe shot conversions and transfers. I certainly would not. Why run the risk?

Mstrty
07-07-2012, 4:35 PM
"You don't do SSEs huh?" He shakes his head and goes, "OH... NO NO NO! No. That's going to come around and bite a lot of people in the @ss."



This sounds and feels exactly like 98% of every gun shop in CA about OLL's a few years back. The only ones that got bit in the @ss were the shops that were originally ignorant to the letter of the law. Think of the thousands of dollars those once ignorant shop owners lost in sales. Sales of OLL's that they now do.

stevesurfs
07-08-2012, 5:09 PM
I think the question for a CA dealer is not about CA law. It's a question of whether the dealer is engaged in manufacturing and is in violation of a type 1 FFL. If a dealer receives a 1911 pistol, it is entered into their bound book as a semi auto pistol. It would not match the CA DROS forms going out as a single shot and would be hard to explain during an ATF audit. So it makes sense to me that a CA FFL might not want to do SSE conversions.

kcstott
07-08-2012, 5:44 PM
I personally wouldn't risk it either if I were him to be honest...

You never know when you'll encounter a "knowledgeable" LEO who has the entire CA Roster MEMORIZED (yes, ALL of it). He finds your off-roster gun, finds out you got it via SSE but you converted it back, you're gonna be in trouble...

Exactly what kind of trouble and under what statute??

kcstott
07-08-2012, 6:06 PM
I think the question for a CA dealer is not about CA law. It's a question of whether the dealer is engaged in manufacturing and is in violation of a type 1 FFL. If a dealer receives a 1911 pistol, it is entered into their bound book as a semi auto pistol. It would not match the CA DROS forms going out as a single shot and would be hard to explain during an ATF audit. So it makes sense to me that a CA FFL might not want to do SSE conversions.

The Quark or Gene Hoffman Posted a thread on SSE and Manufacturing. It was cleared up that swapping parts is not "manufacturing" and the 07 FFL requirement was not needed. Any FFL dealer could swap parts and sell said firearm.

So the Gunsmith takes in a pistol that is one caliber. Barrel is toast. So he swaps barrels and calibers at the same time. Data will not match the book as entered but the book has a spot for repairs/modifications made.

Theres nothing illegal about it. You just have to do it right. And that means lots of documentation. If you can't baffle then with BS bury them in paper work!!

CSDGuy
07-08-2012, 6:06 PM
I think the question for a CA dealer is not about CA law. It's a question of whether the dealer is engaged in manufacturing and is in violation of a type 1 FFL. If a dealer receives a 1911 pistol, it is entered into their bound book as a semi auto pistol. It would not match the CA DROS forms going out as a single shot and would be hard to explain during an ATF audit. So it makes sense to me that a CA FFL might not want to do SSE conversions.
Unless said dealer is a 07FFL and follows all the requirements... 01 FFL's can't do what an 07 FFL can...

DVSmith
07-08-2012, 6:39 PM
The Quark or Gene Hoffman Posted a thread on SSE and Manufacturing. It was cleared up that swapping parts is not "manufacturing" and the 07 FFL requirement was not needed. Any FFL dealer could swap parts and sell said firearm.

So the Gunsmith takes in a pistol that is one caliber. Barrel is toast. So he swaps barrels and calibers at the same time. Data will not match the book as entered but the book has a spot for repairs/modifications made.

Theres nothing illegal about it. You just have to do it right. And that means lots of documentation. If you can't baffle then with BS bury them in paper work!!

I have posted in the SSE thread questions about Gene Hoffman's declaration that an 07 is not needed.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692&page=12

It certainly seems from FAQ info on the BATF website that an 07 would be needed. I am waiting for someone to answer those questions. Not being an 07, I certainly wouldn't do that conversion without clear documentation from the BATF that it was not in fact manufacturing.