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phrogg111
07-06-2012, 12:42 PM
I know mag magnets are terrible and make bullet button rifles into "assault rifles". So, I didn't buy one.

Can I simply tie my tool onto my gun? I mean a piece of dental floss through my trigger guard, and have a bullet or a small piece of 1/4" aluminum or brass hanging from my gun? That's not making the tool "part of the weapon", that's just tying the tool to the weapon with a piece of string so you don't lose it. Certainly not making the rifle any more deadly - still very well neutered.

Would I be able to saw down a steel pin, stick/glue a magnet to my forward assist, and simply stick my non-magnetic tool to the forward assist whenever I'm not using it?

I don't want to get arrested for something dumb. I know I'd probably win the case, but I don't know that I'd be willing to figure out funding for a lawyer and all the fees associated with going to court.

the86d
07-06-2012, 12:43 PM
String/floss could (possibly) qualify as attached for a LEO...

Mag=attached at all...

taperxz
07-06-2012, 12:49 PM
String/floss could (possibly) qualify as attached for a LEO...

Mag=attached at all...

What's wrong with attached? The law makes no mention as to what kind of tool or where it has to be.

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Attached could be considered as part of the gun and not a tool.

phrogg111
07-06-2012, 12:57 PM
What's wrong with attached? The law makes no mention as to what kind of tool or where it has to be.


This is what I was thinking.

Forward assists are made of steel, and attract a magnet. If I stick a nice, big magnet the size of the forward assist on to the thing (one bigger than the 1/4" bullet button), and cut out a little piece of steel, suddenly, I have a tool that I won't lose in my pocket while firing the gun.

I'd actually put a piece of 1/4" aluminum that I drilled a hole in with my drill press, and used dental floss to tie it to my trigger guard. The forest rangers I saw while shooting on public land weren't really happy about it, but they said it was probably fine.

luchador768
07-06-2012, 12:57 PM
It's been discussed many times on here. The thinking is as soon as you tie or otherwise attach a tool to the gun it becomes a part of it. The magazine mounted pieces can't be used from where they attach, and are seen as GTG.

phrogg111
07-06-2012, 12:57 PM
It's been discussed many times on here. The thinking is as soon as you tie or otherwise attach a tool to the gun it becomes a part of it. The magazine mounted pieces can't be used from where they attach, and are seen as GTG.

But the magazine is fixed.

Why wouldn't my trigger guard be just another part of the rifle? Or my forward assist? I can pull those off with tools, too.

stix213
07-06-2012, 1:05 PM
UBBT is probably the best solution right now.

luchador768
07-06-2012, 1:08 PM
The whole notion of te fixed mag and a tool needed to change the mag is that the tool is seperate from the gun. If you want to get cute and tie a bullet to your gun with a ribbon your missing the point of fixed mags. Why not a lanyard on your wrist with the tool?

I don't get this recent fasination with magnets, read the flow charts and search old threads. People a lot smarter than most of us put in a huge amount of work to get the OLL thing up and running. Why mess with years of hard work, and tons of money spent, just so you won't have to reach into your pocket to change a mag?

phrogg111
07-06-2012, 1:22 PM
The whole notion of te fixed mag and a tool needed to change the mag is that the tool is seperate from the gun. If you want to get cute and tie a bullet to your gun with a ribbon your missing the point of fixed mags. Why not a lanyard on your wrist with the tool?

I don't get this recent fasination with magnets, read the flow charts and search old threads. People a lot smarter than most of us put in a huge amount of work to get the OLL thing up and running. Why mess with years of hard work, and tons of money spent, just so you won't have to reach into your pocket to change a mag?

Well, as it turns out, people are already pleading guilty to assault weapon charges left and right for using mag magnets/20 + 30 rd magazines in their semi-automatic ARs at the place I typically go shooting. Apparently most people are charged with misdemeanors. One day, the forest rangers collected 6 rifles before they even got to us to start searching.

What I'm hoping to do isn't an assault weapon. It isn't making the magazine "removable" by the laws. It's making my life a little easier.

I hate how the attitude on this forum is always submissive to the man - doing something that isn't illegal, AND when the laws themselves are unconstitutional, shouldn't be something you attack someone for.

The notion of having a weapon is that I can use it for self defense. My semi-auto AR would have some severe issues with that, considering the magazine is fixed and it can't use magazines bigger than 10 rounds.

mdimeo
07-06-2012, 1:36 PM
If self-defense is a major concern for you, you should go featureless.

I think that, unlike a mag-magnet, a tool like an eyeglass screwdriver or an inert round dangling from a string, or velcro'd to the stock, or in a little duct-tape "holster" on the forearm, is going to be very low risk. The DA would have to tell the judge that a screwdriver isn't a tool, it's part of the gun, and manage to not get laughed at.

That's what this stuff comes down to. If the DA shows the judge a rifle with a mag magnet on it, it's an easy sell that it's a detachable magazine, and you'll probably got to jail. A screwdriver on a string isn't going to pass the giggle test, unless the judge really wants to nail you for something.

luchador768
07-06-2012, 1:39 PM
"submissive to the man"??? Awesome. Are you new to California? Did you wait 10 days for your rifle? Currently we are stick with the fools that are in power and the laws they create. If you want to beat your chest about the constitution have at it. Thier law was written and passed, I have to live with it for now, this is different from bending over btw. The legal team on here has worked hard to make this state a bit more tollerable for gun owners, and still keep us out of jail.

Farrier-1
07-06-2012, 1:42 PM
I think you should justify anything you want and hope that your pockets are deep and your that attorney is awsome :sarcasm:

Dantedamean
07-06-2012, 1:43 PM
If you use a weapon for home defense that has a bullet button and you want to tie a tool to it, go for it. Just put it on before you go to bed and take it off when you wake up if you don't want to risk it (or you can leave it on constantly and just remove it before you go to the range ). Then if you ever have to use your weapon just remove the tool
Before the police get there.

Disclaimer: don't listen to a word I say, I'm stupid and don't know what the hell I'm saying. I also don't recommend you do this at all.

bohoki
07-06-2012, 1:44 PM
get one of those bullet holding slings or tie a bullet to the floss after all the law specifies that a bullet is a tool

taperxz
07-06-2012, 1:46 PM
If self-defense is a major concern for you, you should go featureless.

I think that, unlike a mag-magnet, a tool like an eyeglass screwdriver or an inert round dangling from a string, or velcro'd to the stock, or in a little duct-tape "holster" on the forearm, is going to be very low risk. The DA would have to tell the judge that a screwdriver isn't a tool, it's part of the gun, and manage to not get laughed at.

That's what this stuff comes down to. If the DA shows the judge a rifle with a mag magnet on it, it's an easy sell that it's a detachable magazine, and you'll probably got to jail. A screwdriver on a string isn't going to pass the giggle test, unless the judge really wants to nail you for something.

This is the way i see it too. I would still like to either the courts of the gov. make a legal decision on the mag magnet with IMHO IS a tool regardless of what people say.

the86d
07-06-2012, 1:46 PM
I think you should justify anything you want and hope that your pockets are deep and your that attorney is awsome :sarcasm:

^This!^

The $1000, just to get your firearms back, could buy you a nice new firearm...

Hell, I pay that a month in Child Care, so I don't have it laying around...

mjmagee67
07-06-2012, 1:47 PM
If you don't like the laws in Kalifornia you have 2 choices. 1 Move there are plenty of other states that are A2 friendly. 2 Work to get rid of the Democratic controlled government. But trying to always find a way around a current law gets get idiots like Yee worked up and writing more laws. Bad laws laws that restrict us more and more.. Work to fix the broken dysfunctional idiotic lame government.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 1:55 PM
I think you should justify anything you want and hope that your pockets are deep and your that attorney is awsome :sarcasm:

If everyone thought like this^^^ we wouldn't have a bullet button.

ramathorn
07-06-2012, 1:55 PM
Attach one of these to your key chain or wrist bracelet. Save yourself from wasting precious time explaining your situation to a cop or a judge. http://www.wildbillwholesale.com/kc9463.html

And if you really are concerned at self/home defense get a shotgun. Rifle rounds travel too far and you're liable if it travels way down the street or through a neighbors house, but that's just my two cents.

Intimid8tor
07-06-2012, 1:56 PM
Well, as it turns out, people are already pleading guilty to assault weapon charges left and right for using mag magnets/20 + 30 rd magazines in their semi-automatic ARs at the place I typically go shooting. Apparently most people are charged with misdemeanors. One day, the forest rangers collected 6 rifles before they even got to us to start searching.

What I'm hoping to do isn't an assault weapon. It isn't making the magazine "removable" by the laws. It's making my life a little easier.

I hate how the attitude on this forum is always submissive to the man - doing something that isn't illegal, AND when the laws themselves are unconstitutional, shouldn't be something you attack someone for.

The notion of having a weapon is that I can use it for self defense. My semi-auto AR would have some severe issues with that, considering the magazine is fixed and it can't use magazines bigger than 10 rounds.

You asked a question, you got an answer. If you want to go against the advice then do it. The one thing your forgetting is that you are using logic to come to a solution. The laws in California are anything buy logical. Therefore, applying logic to an illogical problem may not work out in you favor.

Somebody makes a bullet attached to a key lanyard that clips on to your belt. That way it doesn't get lost.

I understand its frustrating. We've all been there. Don't let that frustration get the best of you and end up doing something that you regret. Every LEO interprets things a bit different. One may say it is OK and the next may say it's not. Not worth the risk IMHO, but you are free to choose.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 2:02 PM
You asked a question, you got an answer. If you want to go against the advice then do it. The one thing your forgetting is that you are using logic to come to a solution. The laws in California are anything buy logical. Therefore, applying logic to an illogical problem may not work out in you favor.

Somebody makes a bullet attached to a key lanyard that clips on to your belt. That way it doesn't get lost.

I understand its frustrating. We've all been there. Don't let that frustration get the best of you and end up doing something that you regret. Every LEO interprets things a bit different. One may say it is OK and the next may say it's not. Not worth the risk IMHO, but you are free to choose.

What are you talking about?? the OP got all kinds of different answers. None of them have been solved in court. I guess if you have a bullet button, god forbid you use a bullet that was attached to the rifle. A string or lanyard on the rifle is not going to make the tool a part of the rifle.

Interfan
07-06-2012, 2:04 PM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e366/bohoki/bbyee.jpg
^^^Tool^^^

Someone had to do it.

Farva
07-06-2012, 2:10 PM
Just use the ultimate bullet button tool or go featureless.

Wherryj
07-06-2012, 2:14 PM
I know mag magnets are terrible and make bullet button rifles into "assault rifles". So, I didn't buy one.

Can I simply tie my tool onto my gun? I mean a piece of dental floss through my trigger guard, and have a bullet or a small piece of 1/4" aluminum or brass hanging from my gun? That's not making the tool "part of the weapon", that's just tying the tool to the weapon with a piece of string so you don't lose it. Certainly not making the rifle any more deadly - still very well neutered.

Would I be able to saw down a steel pin, stick/glue a magnet to my forward assist, and simply stick my non-magnetic tool to the forward assist whenever I'm not using it?

I don't want to get arrested for something dumb. I know I'd probably win the case, but I don't know that I'd be willing to figure out funding for a lawyer and all the fees associated with going to court.

No, Mag Magnets make firearms into "Assault Weapons", not "Assault Rifles". Assault rifles are select fire, assault weapons are a figament of a politician's imagination.

Oh, and Thordo's Ultimate Bullet Button Tool is the best way to go. You need a magazine when you are swapping out your empty magazine, so why not use IT as the tool?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6rwJ34hSqk

luchador768
07-06-2012, 2:19 PM
Do you have a legal decision that states a tool tied to a gun is ok? Or are you willing to be a test case. It has been advised by the good folks on here to not do it, if you want to, go for it. It's your gun to lose. The law is an interesting thing and open to a degree of interpretation. One thing it will never do is tell you what's legal, it only defines what is illegal.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 2:27 PM
Do you have a legal decision that states a tool tied to a gun is ok? Or are you willing to be a test case. It has been advised by the good folks on here to not do it, if you want to, go for it. It's your gun to lose. The law is an interesting thing and open to a degree of interpretation. One thing it will never do is tell you what's legal, it only defines what is illegal.

This is not true. Who are these good folks? This opinion you have has evolved over periods of FUD and mis statements.

Farrier-1
07-06-2012, 2:27 PM
If everyone thought like this^^^ we wouldn't have a bullet button.

Was being sarcastic :)

taperxz
07-06-2012, 2:33 PM
Was being sarcastic :)

I guess my sarcasto meter is off today, sorry:D

luchador768
07-06-2012, 2:33 PM
Look a bweise profile and search out his posts. Also the stickys in every forum are a great place to start. I've lurked on this site since 2006-2007 and seen thousands of discussions about what makes a tool a tool, what attached means, etc. I'm going to guess you missed the pages of threads about what "capacity to accept" meant. Im full of a lot of things, FUD ain't one of them.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 2:37 PM
Look a bweise profile and search out his posts. Also the stickys in every forum are a great place to start. I've lurked on this site since 2006-2007 and seen thousands of discussions about what makes a tool a tool, what attached means, etc. I'm going to guess you missed the pages of threads about what "capacity to accept" meant. Im full of a lot of things, FUD ain't one of them.

You are on this topic. A string tied to a bullet which is tied to a rifle is not "part of the rifle". Or a screwdriver or any other tool. Mag magnet is debatable.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 2:41 PM
In fact, under your theory, if i sling a rifle over my should i would guess that the rifle is now a part of me? Or, am i just carrying a rifle.

luchador768
07-06-2012, 2:44 PM
I'm asking again if your willing to possibly lose your rights to defend this? A few shops would sell thier AK's with the tool attached via a lanyard, there were several posts about it. The general consensus was to not do it.

You can repeat it all you want, it doesn't make it true or the law.

Have a good day.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 2:49 PM
I'm asking again if your willing to possibly lose your rights to defend this? A few shops would sell thier AK's with the tool attached via a lanyard, there were several posts about it. The general consensus was to not do it.

You can repeat it all you want, it doesn't make it true or the law.

Have a good day.

Whose general consensus? A group of unidentifiable internet posters?:rolleyes:

Odm92
07-06-2012, 3:00 PM
Just make one those medieval finger gauntlets on your trigger finger it is small enough to be able to shoot and unlock the mag. Dont listen to me i am dumb.

luchador768
07-06-2012, 3:07 PM
Honestly man...there are lawyers and the people who actually brought in the first OLL's and argued cases to get us where we are that post on here. Kinda the oposite of what your doing.

And for fear of the bam hammer I won't touch your question about your sling making you a tool attached to your rifle.

ExtremeX
07-06-2012, 3:16 PM
Why can’t some people just enjoy the fact we have the OLL and a bullet button? There is no need to keep pushing the envelope, its products like the Mag Magnet and people who keep trying to circumvent the laws that just keep making it worse for everyone else.

If you want a regular mag release go featureless…

Don’t attach the tool to your rifle…

It’s not a complicated proposition.

Dantedamean
07-06-2012, 3:20 PM
Why canít some people just enjoy the fact we have the OLL and a bullet button? There is no need to keep pushing the envelope, its products like the Mag Magnet and people who keep trying to circumvent the laws that just keep making it worse for everyone else.

If you want a regular mag release go featurelessÖ

Donít attach the tool to your rifleÖ

Itís not a complicated proposition.

You entitled to your opinion, but that's a very lame one. Just roll over a take it. Ya that's a good tactic....

Rider1k
07-06-2012, 3:21 PM
Why canít some people just enjoy the fact we have the OLL and a bullet button? There is no need to keep pushing the envelope, its products like the Mag Magnet and people who keep trying to circumvent the laws that just keep making it worse for everyone else.

If you want a regular mag release go featurelessÖ

Donít attach the tool to your rifleÖ

Itís not a complicated proposition.

^^^ X1000

Barbarossa
07-06-2012, 3:23 PM
I just want to selectively change some words around to illustrate what a bad idea this is.

I know buying a handgun on the street is terrible and makes me a criminal. So, I didn't buy one.

Can't I simply bypass DROS on a gun? I mean a straw purchase, or have a dealer just not do the paperwork on it? That's not making the gun "illegal", that's just tying to not have it registered to me - still very well neutered with the serial number and all.

I don't want to get arrested for something dumb. I know I'd probably win the case, but I don't know that I'd be willing to figure out funding for a lawyer and all the fees associated with going to court.

The notion of having a weapon is that I can use it for self defense. A registered handgun would have some severe issues with that, considering they can trace it to me and it can't use magazines bigger than 10 rounds.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 3:26 PM
Why canít some people just enjoy the fact we have the OLL and a bullet button? There is no need to keep pushing the envelope, its products like the Mag Magnet and people who keep trying to circumvent the laws that just keep making it worse for everyone else.

If you want a regular mag release go featurelessÖ

Donít attach the tool to your rifleÖ

Itís not a complicated proposition.

NO WHERE does it say the tool has to or can't be any where! It is complicated because this is the ONLY state in the union that uses the bullet button.

I guess CGF should just fold up shop? mission accomplished?

You are not far from where the antis want us, congratulations.

ExtremeX
07-06-2012, 4:05 PM
You entitled to your opinion, but that's a very lame one. Just roll over a take it. Ya that's a good tactic....

Amazing how some of you totally missed my point… Doesn’t sound like you have much experience with past events? The AR-15 rifle was banned; it took a lot of hard work to get it back. Now we have the BB, a fix to a problem that shouldn’t exist in the first place.

Listen… I’m not a FAN of the BB. But I’m also not a fan of bad press.

Must I remind everyone what happened to open carry? People go pushing the envelope and the antis just attack something else. Another right that got taken away due to ABUSE… Now I can’t UOC when hiking, where I legitimately wanted to use it. I didn’t need to stand on a street corner with 50 other UOCers spreading the good work to a majority population who is piss scared of guns. Media gets a hold of it and soccer moms close the deal. It’s a liberal state and wise men predicted this, and it happened.

Threads like this just give the antis ammunition. Stay within the law and be a responsible gun owner. If you don’t like the law, fight to change it, donate to CGF and get involved instead of working on workarounds with dental floss. How many of you guys really got involved with SB249? I signed the petition, made a donation to CGF, and posted flyers at my local range. It’s amazing how many people DON’T know about it.

We live in CA, get used to it. Stop poking the liberal sleeping bear.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 4:10 PM
Amazing how some of you totally missed my pointÖ Doesnít sound like you have much experience with past events? The AR-15 rifle was banned; it took a lot of hard work to get it back. Now we have the BB, a fix to a problem that shouldnít exist in the first place.

ListenÖ Iím not a FAN of the BB. But Iím also not a fan of bad press.

Must I remind everyone what happened to open carry? People go pushing the envelope and the antis just attack something else. Another right that got taken away due to ABUSEÖ Now I canít UOC when hiking, where I legitimately wanted to use it. I didnít need to stand on a street corner with 50 other UOCers spreading the good work to a majority population who is piss scared of guns. Media gets a hold of it and soccer moms close the deal. Itís a liberal state and wise men predicted this, and it happened.

Threads like this just give the antis ammunition. Stay within the law and be a responsible gun owner. If you donít like the law, fight to change it, donate to CGF and get involved instead of working on workarounds with dental floss. How many of you guys really got involved with SB249? I signed the petition, made a donation to CGF, and posted flyers at my local range. Itís amazing how many people DONíT know about it.

We live in CA, get used to it. Stop poking the liberal sleeping bear.


Show me the law that says what you claim. I'll give you a hint, there isn't one:rolleyes:

ExtremeX
07-06-2012, 4:25 PM
Show me the law that says what you claim. I'll give you a hint, there isn't one:rolleyes:

You still fail to see my point... its not about the law, its about bad press and creating waves. UOC was 100% legal, it was legal to have 500 people stand on a street corner strapped, and look what happened to that.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 4:32 PM
You still fail to see my point... its not about the law, its about bad press and creating waves. UOC was 100% legal, it was legal to have 500 people stand on a street corner strapped, and look what happened to that.

apples and oranges and ITS ALL ABOUT THE LAW

ExtremeX
07-06-2012, 4:40 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

Which is what all the UOCers thought…

Until they made a law making it illegal…

Sorry we don’t agree on the issue, but I didn’t UOC for the same reason I won’t attach a tool to my rifle or use a mag magnet... it’s bad press, and I don’t have the time or money to deal with it on a bad arrest... even if I WAS WITHIN THE LAW.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 4:52 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

Which is what all the UOCers thoughtÖ

Until they made a law making it illegalÖ

Sorry we donít agree on the issue, but I didnít UOC for the same reason I wonít attach a tool to my rifle or use a mag magnet... itís bad press, and I donít have the time or money to deal with it on a bad arrest... even if I WAS WITHIN THE LAW.


Evidently you don't understand fruit. UOC and where a tool can be or what a tool is, is again. Grapes and bananas? There are no perceptions in this regard its what the law allows or doesn't. Remember the law doesn't tell you what IS legal, only illegal. UOC was spelled out via law, then repealed.

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2012, 4:54 PM
Well, as it turns out, people are already pleading guilty to assault weapon charges left and right for using mag magnets/20 + 30 rd magazines in their semi-automatic ARs at the place I typically go shooting. Apparently most people are charged with misdemeanors. One day, the forest rangers collected 6 rifles before they even got to us to start searching.

What I'm hoping to do isn't an assault weapon. It isn't making the magazine "removable" by the laws. It's making my life a little easier.

I hate how the attitude on this forum is always submissive to the man - doing something that isn't illegal, AND when the laws themselves are unconstitutional, shouldn't be something you attack someone for.

The notion of having a weapon is that I can use it for self defense. My semi-auto AR would have some severe issues with that, considering the magazine is fixed and it can't use magazines bigger than 10 rounds.


You can thank the submissive attitude of this forum for the entire OLL movement.
The thing about this forum is that we do not advocate illegal or questionable activities. When it comes to attaching a tool to a firearm, it is not a good idea at thos time. Instead of pushing that issue, there are far more important things to do right now. If you want to roll the dice and tale your chances, you better have enough to defend yourself. If you lose and set bad case law, you will screw the rest of us.

Quiet
07-06-2012, 4:56 PM
You can thank the submissive attitude of this forum for the entire OLL movement.
The thing about this forum is that we do not advocate illegal or questionable activities. When it comes to attaching a tool to a firearm, it is not a good idea at thos time. Instead of pushing that issue, there are far more important things to do right now. If you want to roll the dice and tale your chances, you better have enough to defend yourself. If you lose and set bad case law, you will screw the rest of us.

:iagree:

taperxz
07-06-2012, 4:58 PM
You can thank the submissive attitude of this forum for the entire OLL movement.
The thing about this forum is that we do not advocate illegal or questionable activities. When it comes to attaching a tool to a firearm, it is not a good idea at thos time. Instead of pushing that issue, there are far more important things to do right now. If you want to roll the dice and tale your chances, you better have enough to defend yourself. If you lose and set bad case law, you will screw the rest of us.

We certainly agree on many things, this is not one of them. A tool is still a tool whether lanyard to the gun or your wrist. there is no inherent malice to this and no where in the law does it say where the tool can or can't be placed. (not a MM debate here)

Clownpuncher
07-06-2012, 5:07 PM
You can thank the submissive attitude of this forum for the entire OLL movement.
The thing about this forum is that we do not advocate illegal or questionable activities. When it comes to attaching a tool to a firearm, it is not a good idea at thos time. Instead of pushing that issue, there are far more important things to do right now. If you want to roll the dice and tale your chances, you better have enough to defend yourself. If you lose and set bad case law, you will screw the rest of us.

I have to agree with this.

There are a lot of things that may be legal but they really aren't a good idea. I can cook bacon buck naked if I want but it probably isn't a good idea. I may or may not end up with a dr visit. You can hang a "tool" from your rifle but it probably isn't a good idea. You may or may not end up in jail or have your rifle confiscated, either way, right or wrong, you can bet at a minimum it will be a PITA and cost money.

taperxz
07-06-2012, 5:10 PM
I have to agree with this.

There are a lot of things that may be legal but they really aren't a good idea. I can cook bacon buck naked if I want but it probably isn't a good idea. I may or may not end up with a dr visit. You can hang a "tool" from your rifle but it probably isn't a good idea. You may or may not end up in jail or have your rifle confiscated, either way, right or wrong, you can bet at a minimum it will be a PITA and cost money.

circa 2006:: "your going to put a BB on an AR and actually go to the range and shoot it? Hope you have a good lawyer"

adrenaline
07-06-2012, 5:23 PM
UBBT is probably the best solution right now.

I know BB's suck, but UBBT's make it bearable. I've trained doing mag switches with it and can switch out pretty quickly (considering I have the BB/Radlock on it).

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8146/7143737133_6431965d89_c.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8146/7143737133_3c1210157b_h.jpg)

loosewreck
07-06-2012, 5:32 PM
For the advocates of the "tool with a string contraption", you've heard what guys that have been around the OLL movement for a longtime have to say. If you really want to do everyone a favor, write a letter to the CA DOJ, and get yourself (ultimately us) a definitive answer, the same way previous CGN members did with "top loaders" and "mag locks".

taperxz
07-06-2012, 5:48 PM
For the advocates of the "tool with a string contraption", you've heard what guys that have been around the OLL movement for a longtime have to say. If you really want to do everyone a favor, write a letter to the CA DOJ, and get yourself (ultimately us) a definitive answer, the same way previous CGN members did with "top loaders" and "mag locks".

Exactly how is DOJ supposed to give legal advice on something that does not exist? DOJ will not tell you if something is legal, only illegal and since there is no law prohibiting this, DOJ will be silent. DOJ doesn't even want to help Yee with his bill.

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2012, 8:20 PM
We certainly agree on many things, this is not one of them. A tool is still a tool whether lanyard to the gun or your wrist. there is no inherent malice to this and no where in the law does it say where the tool can or can't be placed. (not a MM debate here)

I would like to agree with you. But, if string is OK, how about wire? If wire is OK, how about coilled wire? How about a coilled piece of sping wire? How about wire or string wrapped in a way that the tool is suspended in such a way that is is not touching but directly over the mag release button? Can someone positively tell me exactly where the legal line is?

On the other hand, I think (but I'm not positive) Arsenal has been shipping rifles with their propietary key attached to their products and many stores have been displaying rifles with radlock keys attached for years without DOJ pressing charges on anyone. That might be because the keys or tools are attached in such a way that they can't be used without detaching them. Who really knows?

motorhead
07-07-2012, 1:33 AM
what's the big prob with keeping a tool in your pocket? are you shooting in a speedo?

phrogg111
07-07-2012, 6:06 AM
what's the big prob with keeping a tool in your pocket? are you shooting in a speedo?


Yes. Yes, I am.

taperxz
07-07-2012, 6:14 AM
I would like to agree with you. But, if string is OK, how about wire? If wire is OK, how about coilled wire? How about a coilled piece of sping wire? How about wire or string wrapped in a way that the tool is suspended in such a way that is is not touching but directly over the mag release button? Can someone positively tell me exactly where the legal line is?

On the other hand, I think (but I'm not positive) Arsenal has been shipping rifles with their propietary key attached to their products and many stores have been displaying rifles with radlock keys attached for years without DOJ pressing charges on anyone. That might be because the keys or tools are attached in such a way that they can't be used without detaching them. Who really knows?

Well, if you use the wire like you say i think there is a Mag Magnet problem. tethering a tool to the weapon to prevent it from getting lost is different. Just like i stated in my other thread that the MM can be used with your hand and not left on the rifle yet some feel the MM is illegal, I want Yee to figure this out himself:43:

CSACANNONEER
07-07-2012, 6:16 AM
what's the big prob with keeping a tool in your pocket? are you shooting in a speedo?

I don't even bother with speedos. But on those days, I grab my featureless weapons.

mzimmers
07-07-2012, 6:35 AM
The notion of having a weapon is that I can use it for self defense. My semi-auto AR would have some severe issues with that, considering the magazine is fixed and it can't use magazines bigger than 10 rounds.

I guess that's a matter of personal opinion. Based on my (admittedly casual) studies of the statistics on attacks/self-defense, I personally would expect that 10 rounds is more than enough for the vast majority of instances.

But, if you feel differently, then consider doing as a poster above suggested: go featureless. A U15 stock (I really like mine), a 16" barrel, some 10/20 or 10/30 magazines (to give you more to grab onto for faster changes) and the appropriate muzzle treatment make for a very nice, 100% legal rifle. I have one chambered in 6.8 SPC and that absolutely would be my go-to gun if the balloon ever goes up.

ap3572001
07-07-2012, 7:30 AM
I am sorry but I really don't understand why all this big deal with BB's and magnets etc.

If You just want a self defense rifle that You can use in its original configuration , with any magazines You want ,pick up a Mini 14 or an M1A Scout and You are all set. (MR1 is a nice too).

Or build a featuress rifle.

SoCalXD
07-07-2012, 11:17 AM
Well, as it turns out, people are already pleading guilty to assault weapon charges left and right for using mag magnets/20 + 30 rd magazines in their semi-automatic ARs at the place I typically go shooting. Apparently most people are charged with misdemeanors. One day, the forest rangers collected 6 rifles before they even got to us to start searching.

Forest Rangers? State or Federal? Which Forest? And ah, what exactly did they plan on doing if the 6+ law abiding gun owners decided that they were not going to surrender their legally owned rifles? Sounds like some pretty dumb cops to me, and some even dumber gun owners.

YubaRiver
07-07-2012, 11:18 AM
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/original_241696_H9hLOUzs2HjR8n_SokQZVuXoL.jpg
http://www.coroflot.com/andrewzheng/jewelry-

SoCalXD
07-07-2012, 11:29 AM
I guess that's a matter of personal opinion. Based on my (admittedly casual) studies of the statistics on attacks/self-defense, I personally would expect that 10 rounds is more than enough for the vast majority of instances.

"But, if you feel differently, then consider doing as a poster above suggested: go featureless.

Agreed. In fact, I find reloading with a BB is a PITA. I have gone featureless for my truck gun, and when combined with my pre-ban mags that have been rebuilt with Magpul parts, I am GTG!

If a $1k AR is a bit much for a budget, or you want to avoid the black rifle stigma/hassle all together, I'd suggest an M1 Garand from CMP... if seen by cop or weak minded citizen, they will usually never result in the SWAT Team being called out or being put in the back of a squad car. Us "riflemen" know the capability of an M1 to ward off almost any likely attack by 2 or 4-legged predators.. I can't say I've ever felt under-gunned with an M1 in my hands and a bandoleer full of clips across my chest!

Join the NRA, shoot a CMP qualifier match and order your M1 Garand!

ExtremeX
07-07-2012, 3:19 PM
Show me the law that says what you claim. I'll give you a hint, there isn't one:rolleyes:

This is a good enough reason for me...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3339856&postcount=122

Law or Not… I doubt CGF or Davis and Associates would fight for you in court.

Even if they did, you would probably loose.

taperxz
07-07-2012, 4:14 PM
This is a good enough reason for me...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3339856&postcount=122

Law or NotÖ I doubt CGF or Davis and Associates would fight for you in court.

Even if they did, you would probably loose.

As much as i respect Gene, i disagree with him. Like i said earlier if you sling a rifle on your shoulder are you carrying that rifle or is the rifle apart of you.

Now with that being said, Gene also gives advice to people so that CGF is not held liable for the possibility of someone getting in trouble since there is no case law on this one way or the other.

IF there was case law, IMHO i dont think a judge would declare a screwdriver a part of the rifle and making it an AW, just like the tool in the butt stock of an SKS is sold as a tool kit as opposed to being part of the rifle. The pin within is designed to remove the mag and trigger group.:)

Baja Jones
07-07-2012, 9:56 PM
Every LEO interprets things a bit different. One may say it is OK and the next may say it's not. you are free to choose.
So sad so true.
FUBAR

glockfu
07-07-2012, 10:25 PM
...I don't want to get arrested for something dumb. I know I'd probably win the case, but I don't know that I'd be willing to figure out funding for a lawyer and all the fees associated with going to court.

With all of this debate going back and forth, I think you should have your answer.

As others have said, use the ultimate bullet button tool. That's a pretty clear cut legal way to go and is actually even easier to use than a bullet tied to a string.

E Michael
07-07-2012, 10:36 PM
K so i skimmed threw this and the way I see it is if I felt I had to use my gun to defend myself or my family from death or serious injury I would not care about the repercussions from the law. But using a semi auto rifle as a home defense weapon???? are you being invaded? **************EDIT************ (sorry did not realize original post had nothing to do with self defense)

ap3572001
07-08-2012, 8:15 AM
If a person who owns a Ca legal AR is in a situation that is bad enough to use all kinds of magnets and full capacity magazines- THEY ARE IN WAR.

In that scenario no one will care.

As I said many times before , If a person in CA has a reason to use a 5.56/,223 rifle for defense, I would use a rifle that does not raise any questions.

Even if You do not have std cap magazines, a Mini-14 with few 10 round magazines (Ruger makes them and You can buy them anywhere) ,nice sling and some .223 soft point ammunition would protect a person very nicely.

As an LEO , I can tell You that self defense shooting will bring a lot of stress anyway.

The LAST thing You want is to use a questionable firearm.

Its like an officer to carry a pistol off duty that they are not allowed to carry and get into a shooting. Not a good thing.

donw
07-08-2012, 11:10 AM
If you don't like the laws in Kalifornia you have 2 choices. 1 Move there are plenty of other states that are A2 friendly. 2 Work to get rid of the Democratic controlled government. But trying to always find a way around a current law gets get idiots like Yee worked up and writing more laws. Bad laws laws that restrict us more and more.. Work to fix the broken dysfunctional idiotic lame government.

good sound advice...

even when out shooting, in the woods, you should be able to find a stick/tree branch or maybe an old rusty nail, a spent .22 rimfire cartridge, a spent .17 HMR cartridge, to activate a LEGAL BB...at a range, a ball point pen IN YOUR POCKET or affixed to your range data notebook should suffice.

if you attach ANY tool, to firearms IN ANY FASHION (Velcro, duct tape, dental floss etc) it is/will be/may be considered as being a part of that firearm. (IMO, that definition of "Attached" is a perversion/convoluted description...IMO, being welded to, permanently fused, pinned, bolted on or screwed into, is permanent)

reading and interpreting laws CORRECTLY is the challenge...that's what you pay your attorney the big $$$$ for.

why take a chance? keep your "Tool" in your pocket, notebook, shooting bag or some similar location...i would be leery of the lanyard around the wrist or neck...too many anal LEO around to take the chance.

if approached by a ranger/LEO and you demonstrate that you have no "Tool" handy and pick up a stick to activate the BB...odds are it will be a win-win situation...(barring other issues)

i sometimes think laws that explain what IS legal* are better...laws like California do nothing more than create confusion and make criminals out of people who should NOT be.

*as an example: "You MAY use XXXXX as long as not PERMANENTLY attached..."

curtisfong
07-08-2012, 1:44 PM
If you don't like the laws in Kalifornia you have 2 choices. 1 Move there are plenty of other states that are A2 friendly.

I'm not a spineless coward.

2 Work to get rid of the Democratic controlled government.


Ridiculous. Will NEVER happen. What you should be doing is convincing democrats that guns aren't scary.

But trying to always find a way around a current law gets get idiots like Yee worked up and writing more laws. Bad laws laws that restrict us more and more...

Agreed. But you are forgetting the single most effective way to fix CA: the judicial branch.