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.40Cal
07-05-2012, 8:19 PM
Hey guys,

So I went to the range today. I was shooting my Sig 226 in 9mm. I was all over the place today. It's funny how most of the time I get such precision shooting done, where I'm just over-lapping the holes, and totally shooting out the bulls eye.

However, today was a bad day at the range....I was mostly at 8 O'Clock...left and under... I know the reason (as per the books), I was squeezing the trigger too hard, or anticipating the recoil. I tried holding the gun not so tighly, and sqeezing the trigger gently; that's the only time I hit the bulls eye...but then, my right hand (with gun in it) almost jumps out of my left (supporting) hand. Maybe cuz it was a littly sweaty, or oily... I'm not sure...why...

Whever the case may be...I'm disappointed with myself today.... :mad:

skosh69
07-05-2012, 8:24 PM
Thanks for your honesty, but take it easy on yourself...we all have those days every now and then!

MossbergMan
07-05-2012, 8:34 PM
40 cal, some days you're the dog, other days you're the hydrant. Everyone has an off day at the range. A bad day is when someone gets hurt...butt-hurt feelings don't count.
Folks, when you start seeing your groups opening up....UNLOAD and go DRY. A few dry presses, watching your front sight. Put a dime (heads up) on the front sight. Don't align the sights, keep the dime level. Press the trigger without dropping the dime. OR...just imagine there's a dime on the front sight and press. A few of those and then reload and see the improvement.

GuillermoAntonio
07-05-2012, 8:35 PM
Hey guys,

So I went to the range today. I was shooting my Sig 226 in 9mm. I was all over the place today. It's funny how most of the time I get such precision shooting done, where I'm just over-lapping the holes, and totally shooting out the bulls eye.

However, today was a bad day at the range....I was mostly at 8 O'Clock...left and under... I know the reason (as per the books), I was squeezing the trigger too hard, or anticipating the recoil. I tried holding the gun not so tighly, and sqeezing the trigger gently; that's the only time I hit the bulls eye...but then, my right hand (with gun in it) almost jumps out of my left (supporting) hand. Maybe cuz it was a littly sweaty, or oily... I'm not sure...why...

Whever the case may be...I'm disappointed with myself today.... :mad:

How.often you shoot ur sig?.
I had not.been.shooting my sig at all.and the other day when I.tried I was horrible.as.well.
Try to.dry fire it.
And use it more often :p

Dingotech
07-05-2012, 8:39 PM
Shoot first and then go drinking?

kpdiamond54
07-05-2012, 8:41 PM
MossbergMan, I've had the same problem at the range. I think that was great advice and I can't wait to try that myself. Thank you!

9mmepiphany
07-05-2012, 8:50 PM
I tried holding the gun not so tighly, and sqeezing the trigger gently; that's the only time I hit the bulls eye...but then, my right hand (with gun in it) almost jumps out of my left (supporting) hand. Maybe cuz it was a littly sweaty, or oily... I'm not sure...why...

As your frustration built, you started over-gripping the gun. If you are shooting from the Isosceles Thumbs Forward grip, when you relax the grip with your strong hand...which is correct technique...grip more tightly with your support hand.

Don't pull down with your support hand and don't apply pressure with your thumbs

five.five-six
07-05-2012, 8:56 PM
Dry fire a bunch to "reset" then get back on that horse.

curtru
07-05-2012, 8:56 PM
Bad days are best at the range but you can work past the issues with more training and shooting.

Czsp-01-9mm
07-05-2012, 9:21 PM
I shoot like that all the time with handguns, no bad day needed, even with my sp-01, need practice, don't have time or money maybe it's time to sell,

tonyxcom
07-05-2012, 9:24 PM
Sounds like you need to spend some time on the dry fire range. Cheap and free and one of the most effective training tools ever.

Put a dot on your wall and start dry firing it. I do it while laying in bed.

Capybara
07-05-2012, 9:26 PM
I have owned handguns for about 15 years now and was never a great shot. All I can say is get some instruction. Handgun shooting is all about grip, stance, sighting and breathing and if you do all of these right, you will hit the bullseye. I just took my first class and discovered things I was doing wrong. You fix it and your groups improve immediately.

MrExel17
07-05-2012, 9:28 PM
We all have those day! But it help us get better, because we see the correction needed. Thank you for sharing!

mjmagee67
07-05-2012, 9:31 PM
I find when my group started to tail off to the 8 o'clock I was not squeezing the grip hard enough with my bottom 3 fingers on my trigger hand. An ex-Navy SEAL taught me that one day at the range. He was shooting next to me, didn't know him, he looked over and said "squeeze the grip tighter, when you're pulling the trigger you're tightening you bottom fingers causing the gun to pull low-left". The Range Master came over and told me "listen to him he was a Navy SEAL" so I did and it worked.

.40Cal
07-05-2012, 11:19 PM
I have owned handguns for about 15 years now and was never a great shot. All I can say is get some instruction. Handgun shooting is all about grip, stance, sighting and breathing and if you do all of these right, you will hit the bullseye. I just took my first class and discovered things I was doing wrong. You fix it and your groups improve immediately.



Everyone has wonderful advice... But check this out.....
At times I keep both my hands relaxed....all the fingers relaxed....and sight it in perfectly. Well, guess what... when I finally squeeze the trigger (gently), I do hit the bulls eye perfectly. But then, the gun wants to jump out of my hands. My right hand (with the pistol in it) completely leaves my left hand and jumps out of the left hand:confused:.

Now if I hold it tighter with both hands........well, the groups get messed up.... At least that's what was going on today. Most other day, I'm a pretty good shot. I usually shoot within 3 inches at 25-35 yards, make all 5 shots overlap each other..... I am so disappointed with myself today... :(

battleship
07-05-2012, 11:47 PM
There are no excuses with a P226 its a laser. :43:

.40Cal
07-06-2012, 3:06 AM
How.often you shoot ur sig?.
I had not.been.shooting my sig at all.and the other day when I.tried I was horrible.as.well.
Try to.dry fire it.
And use it more often :p

I try to go every couple of weeks...sometimes, at least once a month.


I was thinking to make it more user-friendly (for me), how about I get the Houge grips (with finger grooves). The plastic grips flex. And also a lower recoil spring, if possible. Do you guys have any suggestions...?

BlackDrop50
07-06-2012, 6:03 AM
Its called dry fire practice. Do it 20 min a day. As said above Sigs are lasers and should damn near hit the same hole every time like a 1911.

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2012, 6:11 AM
When I have a day like that, I know it's time to stop before I develop bad habits/musle memory. Next range visit, I'm normally back to my regular poor shooting.

MossbergMan
07-06-2012, 7:46 AM
Shooting is a task oriented activity and should never be goal motivated. If you apply each task in sequence what happens to the goal? It happens. However if you focus on the goal, you will forget a task or get it out of sequence and then there is no hope to attain the goal....and depression sets in.

THE most important fundamental is Trigger Control - all else is secondary. It matters not how well your sights are centered on your target if you do not manipulate the trigger smoothly/correctly you will not hit where you intended to. PERIOD.
Dry practice is the only way to instill proper trigger control. Live fire should be a test of your dry practice. More live fire just reinforces bad habits in the begining.

Get professional instruction. Nothing will accellerate your improvement faster than having a critical eye evaluating and correcting inappropriate shooting behavior(s). It never fails to amaze me that guys will get a set of golf clubs and go to a Golf Pro for instruction or tennis lessons to improve their game, but buy a gun and WTF "I know how to do this. I've been watching TV for years and besides...I'm guy I have some DNA strand that allows me to be an excellent shooter". I see those guys every day at the range and they wonder...."Why can't I shoot better?" Throwing more lead downrange is NOT the answer. The internet and YouTube help in conceptionalizing techniques....but they are no substitute for real live instruction. Note I wrote Instruction not training. You train what you've been instructed to do.
At the risk of sounding sexist, females do not have this issue. They buy a gun, they seek instruction. This reluctance to getting instruction is a uniquely male behavior.

Disclaimer: I am a professional Firearms Instructor with over 20 years in the industry.

9mmepiphany
07-06-2012, 8:21 AM
^^^
Everything above has also been my experience...I've never understood the reluctance to get training either.

Practice...whenever you are shooting by yourself, it is practice, not training...won't help you unless you are practicing the correct techniques. It just ingrains bad habits

Riksk
07-06-2012, 8:41 AM
I have actually been looking for some handgun training recently in orange county. I have looked at the programs offered at some of the local ranges and here is my concern...

I have a good understanding of firearm safety and nomenclature, even manipulation. However, I don't know good firing fundamentals. Am I better off going with private instruction? Thereby skipping the lecture on the difference between a bullet and a cartridge.

Thanks,
Riksk

jakuda
07-06-2012, 8:53 AM
Shooting is a task oriented activity and should never be goal motivated. .........

.....

+1. People drastically underestimate mental training in sports training. There are many similarities with golf.

reckoner
07-06-2012, 10:37 AM
The best thing I ever did (besides dry firing) to improve my handgun accuracy and day-to-day consistency was to buy a .22, a red dot, and like 30 bricks of ammo.

The red dot basically takes sight alignment and out of the picture and greatly simplifies sight picture, so that the only things left to blame are trigger press and follow through.

The .22 just makes it super cheap to shoot thousands and thousands of rounds, on a regular basis.

The trigger control will translate to higher calibers. Everything you do before the boom and recoil should be exactly the same, regardless of caliber.

em9sredbeam
07-06-2012, 10:45 AM
Shoot first and then go drinking?

No, no no, every responsible gun owner knows you have the order wrong...

I think just about everyone has an off-day every once in awhile. You just practice more so it happens less often or is not as bad when it does happen.

Dreaded Claymore
07-06-2012, 10:51 AM
The trigger control will translate to higher calibers. Everything you do before the boom and recoil should be exactly the same, regardless of caliber.

Will it translate to rifles as well as pistols?

Kappy
07-06-2012, 11:25 AM
I was at the range yesterday target shooting pistol for the first time in probably 3 months. As expected, I sucked. At 12 yards, I was getting about a 4-5" spread. I got one target which was about 2" but I expect that to be my max, usually.

I unloaded 5 magazines and then gave up. Not that I'm not going to do that well again, but I recognize that I needed to take a break. If I kept hammering away at it, it wouldn't have gotten any better and likely would have gotten worse.

It's kind of like hitting baseballs. Sometimes you're just in a slump.

advocatusdiaboli
07-06-2012, 4:46 PM
Shooting is a task oriented activity and should never be goal motivated. If you apply each task in sequence what happens to the goal? It happens. However if you focus on the goal, you will forget a task or get it out of sequence and then there is no hope to attain the goal....and depression sets in.

THE most important fundamental is Trigger Control - all else is secondary. It matters not how well your sights are centered on your target if you do not manipulate the trigger smoothly/correctly you will not hit where you intended to. PERIOD.
Dry practice is the only way to instill proper trigger control. Live fire should be a test of your dry practice. More live fire just reinforces bad habits in the begining.

Get professional instruction. Nothing will accellerate your improvement faster than having a critical eye evaluating and correcting inappropriate shooting behavior(s). It never fails to amaze me that guys will get a set of golf clubs and go to a Golf Pro for instruction or tennis lessons to improve their game, but buy a gun and WTF "I know how to do this. I've been watching TV for years and besides...I'm guy I have some DNA strand that allows me to be an excellent shooter". I see those guys every day at the range and they wonder...."Why can't I shoot better?" Throwing more lead downrange is NOT the answer. The internet and YouTube help in conceptionalizing techniques....but they are no substitute for real live instruction. Note I wrote Instruction not training. You train what you've been instructed to do.
At the risk of sounding sexist, females do not have this issue. They buy a gun, they seek instruction. This reluctance to getting instruction is a uniquely male behavior.

Disclaimer: I am a professional Firearms Instructor with over 20 years in the industry.

This. There is an interview with an Army competition shooter on YouTube in which he says he dry fires-to-range shoots at a ratio of 10-to-1. DOn't have the link handy as I saw it a year ago. Trigger control is key.

.40Cal
07-06-2012, 4:52 PM
Hey guys.... thanks to everyone to support me, and not make me feel like an idiot. There have been days when I shoot impressively. I think one of the rituals I didn't do yesterday was, that I didn't wash my hands first. I find the hands to be generally sweaty, and somewhat oily due to the oil on the gun. That makes the grip slippery. Then with frustration, you tend to overly do EACH technique....like overly focus on the trigger and try everything, and so the same with grip...holding it too tighly, or lightly....

And when the frustration sets in, then just make yourself FEEL better and that I CAN DO IT... you end up shooting another box of ammo, but with no better results.

I feel the next time I go, I'll do okay. Besides, I'm getting me a Houge grip. I'm hoping it will help a few ways...even if not, the rubber doesn't slip as easily as the stock plastic grip. And in the worse case, if I go back to the stock grips, I'll just sell the Houge grip here on the forum.... It's like $20, not a BIG risk... As mentioned in my other thread, I'm also considering a lighter recoil spring. I know... some of you'll say 9mm has a light recoil to begin with. I agree, so does a .22LR....but we do we still flinch? That's what kills the tigger control.

I did an excersise yesterday at the range. I have 6 Mags. I put in random rounds in each Mag (2-7). I never know which mag has how many rounds. My firing thumb automatically lands on the Sig's slide release button..so after the last shot the slide still closes, as if it's loaded. And I squeeze the trigger....but no round fires.....but this is how I can see what I'm doing wrong. My barrel dips in the front as I squeeze tigger, sometimes the hand also moves from it's position. I could tell why my shots are all over the place. But I was frustrated, cuz I don't do so badly most of the sessions... :(

.40Cal
07-06-2012, 8:16 PM
So, most of my shots at the range were at 7,8,9 0'clock area. After doing some online search.... Here's the reason, and remedy... (weird thing is, I knew this...however, the stupid hand doesn't know the difference between squeeze or pull on the trigger. It makes sense theoratically, but just wouldn't work :( ).

I guess a lot of dry fire pactice is needed....I'm still confused about the snap caps, if it's really needed or not. That's another topic though...

Fact is, if you are human, you cannot hold the sights perfectly aligned in the same spot of the target anyway….not off hand…your body can’t do it. If you really think you can, just mount a laser sight on a pistol and go for it.

All too often a shooter gets his sights aligned on target and when the sight picture is just about perfect, he thinks to himself something like, ‘It’s there, it’s there, shoot it!’. And at that moment he pulls the trigger and moves the sights off target as he pulls the trigger.

If the shooter is right handed, the shot tends to go low and/or left 4 to 6 inches or so, depending on how far they are from the target. This is often done with some consistency even, which makes the shooter think it’s the gun that’s shooting ‘off’.

The problem is that the shooter, due to the muzzle blast and recoil generated by the shot, cannot see that he’s pulling the sights off target as he pulls the trigger…..so what’s the cure?

One thing to do is dry fire. Practice shooting the gun with no ammo in it. Align the sights (with, or without a target), and pull the trigger by putting slow, steadily increasing rearward pressure against it until the gun ‘fires’….without disturbing your sight alignment.

The other thing our shooter needs to do is called a ‘Ball and Dummy’ drill. This, very simply put, allows the shooter to see for himself just exactly how he’s pulling the trigger.

First, ya have to have some dummy rounds, or snap caps work too (yes, there’s a difference*). Then, mix at least two or three dummy rounds into a mag with live ammo so ya won’t know when you’ll hit them while shooting. You can also load more than one mag with the dummy rounds mixed in at random and then mix the mags so you really don’t know where they are in the mags. Be honest with yourself, if you know where the dummy rounds are, it doesn’t work as well.

Now you go shoot your best group.

When you click on a dummy, one of two things will happen, and you have to pay attention to your sights. Either your sights will stay aligned on target like they do when you dry fire….which means you pulled the trigger well, or your front sight will dip down low and left into the area of your target where your shots are going…..this means you decided to fire the shot and pulled the trigger instead of squeezing the trigger until the gun fired….and that’s why your shots are going low and left.

Now it’s up to you to learn to squeeze/press/pull the trigger correctly, like you do when you dry fire, and continued use of the dummy rounds will help you do so.

MossbergMan
07-06-2012, 8:22 PM
I have actually been looking for some handgun training recently in orange county. I have looked at the programs offered at some of the local ranges and here is my concern...

I have a good understanding of firearm safety and nomenclature, even manipulation. However, I don't know good firing fundamentals. Am I better off going with private instruction? Thereby skipping the lecture on the difference between a bullet and a cartridge.

Thanks,
Riksk

Private lessons: Usually cost more, as the instructors full attention is on you, but that's one of the advantages. You advance at your own learning rate. You can get as much benefit from an hour or hour and a half of private instruction than 8 hours of group work. Some folks just can't learn in a cookie cutter fashion, boiler plate learning environment and require a unique approach to help them learn/understand and/or develope a skill.

The difference in private v. group is like going to a financial seminar and going your personal finanical advisor that knows you and your finanical situation inside out. You can benefit from both, however the personal advisor will get your money on track faster.

Group lessons: cost less but you learn at the slowest members level. Depending on the instructor to student ratio (never more than 5 students to 1 instructor) and the instructor/instructor cadre you can benefit from a group setting. Even if it's how NOT to do something. Many of us learn from the mistakes of others.

Advice: Seek out a class you can afford (and has been recommended by someone you know or trust) and appeals to you. Then go to a private instructor to iron out any deficiencies or voids in technique (or information) that the class didn't address for you personally.

MossbergMan
07-06-2012, 8:38 PM
[QUOTE=.40Cal;8883750]=
...And when the frustration sets in, then just make yourself FEEL better and that I CAN DO IT... you end up shooting another box of ammo, but with no better results.

Guys and gals, this is just not the right thing to do. Oh I understand the motivation to improve or "get even" or back on par, but you are likely reinforcing BAD habits. To establish a habit or behavior takes (number vary) approximately 3000 repetitions.....to BREAK a habit or behavior takes 9000 repetitions. Regardless of the true number (all individuals are different) save yourself some RE-training time and effort and not reinforce bad behavior/habits.

When your shooting goes south unload and go dry or pack it up and re-group at another time. This is some of the best advice I ever received as a beginner from a great shooter/mentor.
If you're in a hole, you keep digging trying to get out....do you? NO...so stop digging (wasting ammo and reinforcing bad habits). Stop while you're behind and analize what you might have been doing wrong on the way home or at lunch or whatever but don't keep blasting away in the HOPES you'll improve.
We all want to feel good about ourselves, but there is a time and place for everything. Hoping your shooting will change is oh so presidential and it hasn't worked for him either.

USM0083
07-06-2012, 9:32 PM
.40Cal,

Trigger control is usually the root of most problems.

You say you are shooting a Sig P226. Does it have a DAK trigger or a DA/SA (double action/single action) trigger?

Many shooters never completely master the transition from DA first shot to SA single shot.

Dry fire practice is essential, but many shooters perform differently when the gun is loaded.

JNunez23
07-06-2012, 10:18 PM
I had a horrible day shooting yesterday, over 200 rounds and 180 of them were to the bottom right...

Today I returned, and was dead on! lol Safe to say, we all have those days.