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View Full Version : AR Title 1 other questions.


that guy
06-28-2012, 2:03 PM
I'm sorry if this is the wrong section for these questions, but is seems like the AR based California legal AR short barreled thingamabobs questions get answers here first. I have two questions regarding the build of a Franklin Armory style title one "other" type firearm.

QUESTION 1: I know I can use an 80% lower I built myself (CALGUNS build party=AWESOME) as the basis for one of these firearms, but what about a gun that was already registered as a pistol in California, that was originally too short (under 26.3") to meet the requirements discussed in the Franklin armory letter? Could the lower from such a pistol be reconfigured as a federal title 1 / CA pistol?

Question 2: Is there any reason, federally or in California, that a rifle length buffer tube could not be used on an AR pistol? This seems like a good way to eek out 26.3" on a title 1, but I'm also curious about whether I can use a rifle length buffer tube on any pistol in this state (because I already have them, and I'm cheap, er frugal).

Thanks, and if this thread needs to go somewhere else, feel free to relocate it.

tacticalcity
06-28-2012, 2:14 PM
QUESTION 1: Are you asking how to be able to put a forward grip on it like Franklin Armory did? You simply put a longer upper on your lower and you are good. It was registered as a pistol lower. Not as a pistol lower with X exact overall length. You are basically over thinking the hell out of this one. Once you meet the OAL discussed in that opinion letter you are fine. No need to buy and register a different lower.

QUESTION 2: No reason at all. The ATF has said in an opinion letter that you can use any buffer tube you wish. Both rifle length and carbine style adjustable buffer tubes are legal. However, they warn against having the slip-on stock for that tube laying around as that is constructive intent. Feel free to google that opinion letter or just use the search feature here on Calguns. I'm not hunting it down for ya. Too much of a pain in the rear. But it is there for you to find.

California law doesn't go into either subject in the kind of detail you want. We only have ATF opinion letters to go by. The federal law doesn't really cover it either. We just some guy at the ATF's interpretation of federal law which often seems to be pulled out of thin air yet historically has carried the weight of law in that judges will look at those ATF letters and treat them as if they are law. Unlike the ATF the DOJ does not issue opinion letters on any subject. So you will never get an official "yes this is legal here in California" from them. Typically, if the law is silent on the issue then it is considered legal. But that does not mean you won't get popped by the local police department and have to prove it. The chances of this are slim, but you cannot expect a patrol officer to know every tiny little detail about the laws covering these things like you do. There are way too many and they are way too complicated and frankly make zero sense at all. However, this is very unlikely to be an issue at all. Unless you draw a very anti-gun cop, supervisor, DA, and Judge all in a row...the ATF letters should cover it.

that guy
06-28-2012, 2:21 PM
QUESTION 1: Are you asking how to be able to put a forward grip on it like Franklin Armory did? You simply put a longer upper on your lower and you are good. It was registered as a pistol lower. Not as a pistol lower with X exact overall length. You are basically over thinking the hell out of this one. Once you meet the OAL discussed in that opinion letter you are fine. No need to buy and register a different lower.

This is a theoretical and hypothetical discussion of how it might be done in the future (I'm not admitting to anything - lol), or maybe a theoretical question about how to do it again. It sounds like the question I should have asked was "can any AR pistol become a title 1 other similar to..."

QUESTION 2: No reason at all. The ATF has said in an opinion letter that you can use any buffer tube you wish. Both rifle length and carbine style adjustable buffer tubes are legal. However, they warn against having the slip-on stock for that tube laying around as that is constructive intent. Feel free to google that opinion letter or just use the search feature here on Calguns. I'm not hunting it down for ya. Too much of a pain in the rear. But it is there for you to find.
Thanks, that answers that question.

tacticalcity
06-28-2012, 2:26 PM
FYI there is another opinion letter that says the Magpul AFG is not a "vertical forward grip" and can be use on any length pistol. Might consider that option as it will save you the cost of an upper.

But don't take my word on this stuff. I'm not a lawyer. Google and download the ATF opinion letters for CYA.

that guy
06-28-2012, 2:35 PM
But don't take my word on this stuff. I'm not a lawyer. Google and download the ATF opinion letters for CYA.

I keep a copy of the Franklin Armory letter in the locked container of the hypothetical firearm. I'll print out a copy of the buffer tube opinion, and hypothetically keep that in there too. I'm not worried about the cost of a new one, I'm trying to see if there is an easy way to do it from scratch (again?).

MrPlink
06-28-2012, 3:58 PM
I have a rifle extension on my "title1 other"
and have for quite a while without issue.

I do not own any type of stock that could be attached to it, but just to play it even safer I spent an extra minute removing the threads on it so it is no longer possible period.

gun toting monkeyboy
06-29-2012, 10:12 AM
Wow. I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised at the answers so far. I mean, I know that the answers here are correct, but every time this has come up previously, we had at least one person chime in with FUD about it being illegal. Can it be that people are finally catching on? Or is it just the fact that they saw who was answering, and decided that their knee-jerk reaction to scream about jail time might need to be reconsidered? Personally I am thrilled that we don't seem to be running into that attitude as much anymore. Adding that forward grip has turned what was nothing more than a range toy into something that is actually somewhat functional for me. I know that a 10 1/2 inch barrel will never get as much velocity as a carbine or a rifle, but they are just so danged handy sometimes.

-Mb