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mithrandir
06-25-2012, 11:37 AM
Can anybody confirm the "isotope" statement toward the end of the article?

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_20934860/new-study-lead-poisoning-condors-at-epidemic-proportions

I'll quote it here in the event the link does not work:

Monday's study, which also looked at lead levels in condor feathers, confirmed that the lead in the birds is coming from bullets, rather than other sources such as old paint chips, by matching the isotope levels of lead in bullets to the lead in the condors.

1meanchevy
06-25-2012, 2:28 PM
CARLIN: Let me tell you about endangered species, all right? Saving
endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to control
nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us in trouble in the first
place. Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature. Over
90%, way over 90% of all the species that have ever lived on this planet,
ever lived, are gone. They're extinct. We didn't kill them all..... They
just disappeared. That's what nature does. We're so self-important, so
self-important. Everybody is going to save something now. Save the
trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails. And the
greatest arrogance of all, save the planet.

mcmikeblues7
06-25-2012, 3:20 PM
CARLIN: Let me tell you about endangered species, all right? Saving
endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to control
nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us in trouble in the first
place. Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature. Over
90%, way over 90% of all the species that have ever lived on this planet,
ever lived, are gone. They're extinct. We didn't kill them all..... They
just disappeared. That's what nature does. We're so self-important, so
self-important. Everybody is going to save something now. Save the
trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails. And the
greatest arrogance of all, save the planet.

i totally agree, and we shouldn't make it harder on ourselves to help other life forms, because that's what animals do, we favor our own species before any other. and we ARE animals

VFX_man
06-25-2012, 3:27 PM
I was laying in my tent at 11pm at night listing to the machine guns firing at Fort Hunter Ligget thinking . . . wow that's a lot of copper being fired . . . hmmm copper?

dangerranger
06-25-2012, 4:39 PM
I have heard of isotope lead but it referred to lead used as shielding for Xray machines, medical and dental labs, and packaging around atomic medicines while being stored or shipped. It does retain some radiation but not dangerous levels and was said to loose it in the smelting process. Im not shure I follow the ability to take a lead sample and say that it came from bullits. I personaly pour bullits from all kinds of scrap lead, so if you sampled an animal Id shot you would have to assume that that it was hit by a flying wheel weight dislodged from a passing truck! DR

chicoredneck
06-25-2012, 4:54 PM
In proper scientific studies data is gathered and a hypothesis is drawn from that data. A conclusion is only drawn when the hypothesis can be positively verified by multiple unbiased sources.

Unfortunately, much of today's scientific studies are performed with alterior motives. A hypothesis is drawn first and then data is gathered to prop up this hypothesis. This is bad science. The bullet lead ban is a result of such bad science. Condors are just a pawn in a game being played to reduce and eliminate hunting by increasing the cost.

Why is it that turkey and black headed vultures, bald eagles, and golden eagles population has not been declining from lead poisoning? In fact their populations are on the rise. All of these birds feed on carrion.

There was a study done in Europe of the safety of game meat for sale in public market. Europe does not have the same laws restricting the sale of game animals for commercial consumption. The study was weather or not the lead in bullets presented a potential health risk. What was discovered was that the elemental lead in bullets is not easily absorbed into the body. Almost all of it is passed without absorption. They also found that populations who consumed larger amounts of game animals had equal and in some cases less lead in their bodies than their farm animal eating peers.

njineermike
06-25-2012, 5:01 PM
An isotope is a version of an element that has a different neutron count. For the statement that all the lead is from bullets due to the isotopes being the same would only be ture if ALL bullets were from the same isotope and ALL other forms of lead were not. All the study proves is that the specific isotope they have found to be most abundant in the birds can be the same as used in the bullets they used as a baseline comparison, but that's all it proves. This is akin to saying that since being hit by a car kills people, and they will all have blunt force trauma, all deaths with blunt force trauma are the result of being hit by a car.

bodger
06-25-2012, 5:11 PM
I can't wait until they figure out that condors have a lead deficiency and that's why they are becoming extinct.
Good times.

JagerDog
06-25-2012, 5:25 PM
The same science was being used by the FBI to identify bullets in crime investigation. It was since debunked and reversed a number of convictions. The smart way to do this would have been say a 10 year moratorium. If the same problems to the same degree exist after ten year, then it's a useless moratorium and should sunset. Limited evidence from AZ with their voluntary use of non-lead yielded no significant change in lead poisoning in Condors.

I'm all for saving condors if we're purposefully doing something which can be abated so they can survive. Largely, it's a bird past their usefulness though. We don't have Mastodon carrion anymore in the southwest.

jm13690
06-25-2012, 5:52 PM
The real thing that kills these birds is lack of a supply of food. Think of all the carcasses that get washed up on the beach or hit by a car, and how they all get cleaned off the roads. Those are the things a condor would go for.

I hate having to deal with the lead free. I comply with it, but it is annoying, especially having to do it for ground squirrels. Big game sure I understand it, but its just gotten ridiculous.

Sorry had to vent.

Tanner68
06-25-2012, 9:17 PM
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/06/19/1203141109.abstract

Abstract to the article here with links to the full article. For now, you have to pay for the full article. It would be interesting to analyze the details of their methodology for determining lead bullet isotopes.

IVC
06-25-2012, 10:05 PM
Since the OP asked about the isotopes in general, there are many ways they can be used to establish causality. For example, "carbon dating" uses the fact that an isotope of carbon is radioactive and thus decays over time. When an organism is alive, due to the exchange of matter with the environment, the concentration of the radioactive carbon-14 is the same as in the environment. Once the organism dies, carbon-14 starts decaying, so its concentration keeps decreasing. The amount of this decrease is used to determine the time of death.

With lead, there are several stable isotopes which occur naturally in the environment. If isotopes are absorbed by birds similarly (they are all still "lead" after all), the proportion of lead isotopes in birds should mimic that of the environment. This can be further tested by comparing to, say, caged condors in CA, or free range Andean condors in South America. Either way, once the baseline is established of what each isotope concentration in a living bird is "natural," any deviation from it can indicate an "external source."

If bullets had a very, very specific isotope mixture that is significantly different not only from what is found in the environment, but also from any other lead products that condors might get in touch with, then an isotope composition *might* indicate bullets as a source. However, even in that case, a proper scientific study would require a controlled experiment to prove causality. The easiest way would be to feed the caged condors with *typical* animals shot with lead bullets - this means that often bullet is not even in the animal, and when it is, it's not always swallowed by the bird, etc.

Short of the proper "control study," it's all just speculation. I wouldn't completely dismiss bullets as a source, but at this point it seems unlikely - there is already a ban in place in locations where condors spend by far the most of their time. For example, if there is no lead bullets in 90% of their territory and the bullets were the source of lead, then one would expect a proportional decline in the lead levels. If the lead levels are not decreasing (which they aren't) once bullets are removed (which they are), there is likely a different source or a different mechanism.

As for other birds in the same habitat not experiencing the same lead levels, condors have a very long life span so the cumulative effect can be significantly different. This is not a good comparison as we don't want to fight junk science with junk science.

The push for more lead free zones is similar to the generic gun control. Ban what you dislike by claiming it is causing death, but then when it doesn't work as expected, claim that it's because we need more of it.

JagerDog
06-25-2012, 10:19 PM
As for other birds in the same habitat not experiencing the same lead levels, condors have a very long life span so the cumulative effect can be significantly different. This is not a good comparison as we don't want to fight junk science with junk science.

From what I've read, condors can't regurgitate like many of the other scavenger birds.

The push for more lead free zones is similar to the generic gun control. Ban what you dislike by claiming it is causing death, but then when it doesn't work as expected, claim that it's because we need more of it.


Too true. No different than "stimulus".

bolded.........

glockman19
06-26-2012, 7:05 AM
CARLIN: Let me tell you about endangered species, all right? Saving
endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to control
nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us in trouble in the first
place. Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature. Over
90%, way over 90% of all the species that have ever lived on this planet,
ever lived, are gone. They're extinct. We didn't kill them all..... They
just disappeared. That's what nature does. We're so self-important, so
self-important. Everybody is going to save something now. Save the
trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails. And the
greatest arrogance of all, save the planet.

Loved and miss George..."Bees, trees, Whales, snails..."

EjmtSkl53h4

otteray
06-26-2012, 8:10 AM
In the Santa Cruz Senile, er, Sentinel Newspaper, too.
Probably from the anti-any-and-all-guns Center for Biological Diversity.
Will those that are knowledgeable and articulate refute this in the letters to the editor page, please, before there is a collective gasp and knee jerk reaction?
This was already proven as false science, some time ago.

chris
06-26-2012, 8:14 AM
Duh. We knew that it wouldn't do a thing to save that bird. Nature has decided that its time for it to go. This was nothing more than attempt to ban bullets and then hunting all together.

IVC
06-26-2012, 10:22 AM
Will those that are knowledgeable and articulate refute this in the letters to the editor page, please, before there is a collective gasp and knee jerk reaction?

Not that easy. Science is akin to legal proceedings - very articulate, deliberate, slow and dry. Public opinion is, on the other hand, akin to show business - a few flashy explosions and a punch line that doesn't make sense.

The refutal in a daily paper has to play emotions or even confusion of the target audience, not science. For example, introduce doubt as in "What is really poisoning the CA condor? Removal of lead bullets doesn't reduce lead levels." Or, provide a conspiracy theory as in "Pollution from big cities killing CA condors." A simple sucker punch sometimes goes a long way.

PatriotnMore
06-26-2012, 11:03 AM
IMO, if lead is the issue, it can't solely come from bullets. I am sorry, I don't trust the data, there has to be some other source(s) causing the problem. I find it suspect that the issue stems from something gun related.



http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-sci-condors-lead-poisoning-20120626,0,3235512.story

sargenv
06-26-2012, 2:21 PM
Lead from other sources... how about the millions of gallons of leaded gas that was spewing lead into the air and into soil for 100 years before it was finally outlawed in the 80's?

bridgeport
06-26-2012, 2:47 PM
Here you go... everything you ever wanted to know about where the lead in gasoline ended up. Perhaps the bird scientists missed reading this and other studies like it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1533263/

1meanchevy
06-26-2012, 3:26 PM
37 million people put up with a law for 385 birds.... makes tons of sense.

5shot
06-26-2012, 3:37 PM
Common sense is a pretty hard sell with the condor people and at least one of the DFG biologist, who by the way wants all lead bullets and shot banned statewide.
At our annual So. Counties F&G Commissioners conference in December, they made their presentation for banning lead statewide. They also quickly breezed over their latest statistics. So I asked them "why are there more cases of lead poisoning now, then before the ban of lead bullets in condor areas?". Their answer; "because not everyone is abiding by the ban".
Common sense would tell you, that even if a high number like 50% of hunters were disobeying the new law, you should still have a 50% reduction in lead poisonings. Not a increase.

chris
06-26-2012, 4:58 PM
37 million people put up with a law for 385 birds.... makes tons of sense.

california politics at its best.

jaymz
06-26-2012, 5:51 PM
Google "california condor eating bottle caps". Condors are killing themselves and their babies. Lead bullets are at best, an insignificant contributor to the bird's decline.

glock 357
06-26-2012, 6:15 PM
I sure in the hell don't want any help from anyone else ;) The endangered species were fine before tree huggers came around to save the world o.0 Just like dumb politicians trying to make a name for themselves instead of peoples best interest focusing on what really matters. Still wondering what happen to hope in ones case..... modern medicine turning peoples life into financial misery (never scene so many lawyers on tv scouting for people who suffer from certain medication after effects). hence why I also don't read the papers anymore either. Someone touched it and now newspapers are becoming extinct. Save SJ Mercury News Please!!!

toby
06-26-2012, 6:55 PM
I'm a non believer in their theory so I'm a non participant in their little dream theme...:cool2:

ouch1
06-27-2012, 8:39 AM
Well here is some info for you all. It seems that like most other birds Condors pickup crap from the ground and swallow it for its minerals. this could conceivably include lead tire weights and lead fishing weights.
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/sowb/casestudy/180

-ouch1