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View Full Version : The mother of all refinishing threads. I have tons of Duracoat questions.


tenpercentfirearms
05-22-2007, 10:13 AM
Ok, I am seriously thinking of dabling in Duracoat over the summer. I have so many questions, lets see if I can get them answered.

Disassembly/cleaning.

1) I keep hearing about bead blasting. Explain this to me. When do I have to bead blast? When is it unecessary? I obviously don't want to have to pay a lot of money everytime I do a gun to have it bead blasted at some shop, so are there do it your self bead blast options? If this painting stuff is kind of fun and easy, I might do it on a commercial level so I might not mind investing in some refinishing items like a bead blaster or a park tank.

2) Duracoat sticks well to parkarized finishes. How hard is it to parkarazie a firearm? What is required. Is it worth it?

3) I hear about just using a light sanding or some steel wool to prep a surface. Explain this too.

4) What will Duracoat stick to best? My first project will probably be some pink AR furniture for the wife. Does plastic need preping or can you just Duracoat it?

Thanks for your help. I might order the Duracoat items this week and work on it as I go. I would like to turn this into a good Duracoat thread for future reference as we go along.

luvtolean
05-22-2007, 11:06 AM
I haven't used Duracoat yet.

But bead blasting cleans the surface, and roughens it giving the Duracoat more to stick to. For something like plastic which paints/coatings don't like to stick to, it's probably more important. Bead blasting itself is just a media (glass or walnut shell is common) blasted with compressed air. For the glass beading you'll want a cabinet, but for walnut shell blasting, you don't have to have a cabinet. But it is messy.

Parkerizing is a rough finish that absorbs liquids well. It's no wonder Duracoat sticks well to it, this is how automotive paint primers work basically too. I have home parkerizing articles, it doesn't look too hard, but you have to have a bath to cook a solution of salts in and then dip the parts. If you're interested only in Duracoating, it is probably cheaper, and more useful, to just buy a bead blast cabinet...plus they're great for all sorts of stuff as you learn when you have one...

Rule .308
05-22-2007, 11:19 AM
If you are going to do any amount of it you would be better off to purchase your own blast cabinet. Harbor Freight puts a pretty good sized one on sale for $199.00 from time to time. You will need a pretty decent compressor to run it as well. It is necessary to bead blast anything that you are going to phosphate (parkerize) and you can only parkerize ferrous compounds, it has to be steel, no aluminum or other metals. I have never Duracoated over a bare metal finish that was bead blasted, I have always parked my stuff up first and then Duracoated. The one thing that they do not mention about the Duracoat is that if you are a lagger and do not get right onto your project that the hardener will kick off right in the bottle and when you get your lazy *** around to that project 3-6 months down the road your hardener is no good and you will need to order more. I have not applied the stuff with the hip, slick, and cool HVLP guns that they use in the Lauer Custom Weaponry DVD but have used the air brush method that they also recommend and have had nothing short of fabulous results. The HVLP looks like the way to go for production runs but I am always doing a gun here and a gun there so it makes more sense to mix up small batches and run it through the airbrush. I bought a decent external mix Pasche set up and use the 3 oz (I think?) jar and have more than enough to shoot something like an StG-58 with all of the parts and pieces. I like the idea behind bead blasting the gun, parkerizing it, cleaning and degreasing it completely and then Duracoating it. It is really the best of both worlds. I use 80# aluminum oxide in my blast cabinet and run it at around 125 PSI. From what I have read I am running the PSI too high but it works for me and I do not have to screw around with the pressure regulator at my shop.

Good luck,
mark

DB2
05-22-2007, 11:31 AM
I have not used duracoat, but I have used Norrels. From what I have gathered you don't want to use glass beads as in bead blasting. It will have a tendancy to polish the metal and your coating won't stick well. I sand blasted my parts as recommended and they turned out smooth with a very uniform finish.If yor parts are Teflon coated you maust blast them, since the coatings will not stick. I believe you shoud blast your parts every time, but you can recoat over most existing coatings, as long as you prep them first.If you use sand paper to remove the existing be carefull of sanding scratches in the metal, it will make your finish look bad. Harbor Freight has a small bench top blasting cabinet that is 100 bucks i think. That, an air compressor and a bag of sand and your good to go.:yawn:

Not sure about parkerizing parts.

tenpercentfirearms
05-22-2007, 12:06 PM
So for AR handguards, pistol grip, and fixed buttstock, how would you recommend I prep it for Duracoat? Should I just use the cleaning agent that Lauer sells or should I bead blast it?

What about the rest of an AR15? If I wanted to Duracoat the upper assembly, what would be required to prep it? What about a lower? Does it matter if it is anodyzed or not?

I did a lot of searching at Harbor Freight for blast cabinents. I have a Crafstman compressor already, what else would I need other than a blast cabinent? Do I need a blaster as well? I downloaded the instructions for the cabinent and it said something about having an oiler installed on your line from your compressor. Please explain the blasting set up and procedures for me. Are you trying to just clean the parts or strip off the finish?

Again, thanks for your help. I really want to get all of this info down because I know it will not just help me, but anyone else interested in finishing their guns.

DB2
05-22-2007, 1:43 PM
So for AR handguards, pistol grip, and fixed buttstock, how would you recommend I prep it for Duracoat? Should I just use the cleaning agent that Lauer sells or should I bead blast it?

What about the rest of an AR15? If I wanted to Duracoat the upper assembly, what would be required to prep it? What about a lower? Does it matter if it is anodyzed or not?

I did a lot of searching at Harbor Freight for blast cabinents. I have a Crafstman compressor already, what else would I need other than a blast cabinent? Do I need a blaster as well? I downloaded the instructions for the cabinent and it said something about having an oiler installed on your line from your compressor. Please explain the blasting set up and procedures for me. Are you trying to just clean the parts or strip off the finish?

Again, thanks for your help. I really want to get all of this info down because I know it will not just help me, but anyone else interested in finishing their guns.


Wash the furniture in hot soapy water and let dry. Do not touch the parts after cleaning, I would suggest wearing latex gloves.

I coated all reciever parts upper rec, lower rec, handgaurd ring and charging handle so it would all match. I would suggest at least upper and lower so the colors are exact, but thats me.

The cabinet will come with the gun and nozzel. Do not use an oiler that is for air tools. Use a water catch that will keep the media from getting wet and clog.

Strip the finish. Get it down to bare metal, it will make your finished project look that much better. Once you have all the original finish stripped wash in hot soapy water, and let dry.Once again do not touch parts wear gloves. Coat as necessary and follow the procedure for cure. I used an airbrush and did numerous thin coats till coverage was even.

Charliegone
05-22-2007, 1:55 PM
I used aluminum oxide on one of my ak's and that stuff (meaning the Duracoat) will not come off. They also sell this can of trustrip (i think?) that works good to clean the firearm, leaves no residue which is good. If you have parkerizing, you will need spray it over a couple times, since the duracoat starts to "mix" in with the park.

Teletiger7
05-22-2007, 2:09 PM
Lauer specifically states Not to do bead blasting as part of prep. This will cause the surface to be smooth and polised. The duracoat will not adhere to this as well. They recommend Aluminum Oxide blasting with 60-120 grit Or sand as an alternative. Something that will rough up the surface and give the coat something to cling to. But you can use duracoat without blasting if you like. However, best results are when you prep good. Good prep= Alum Ox/sand blasting, Clean and degrease, mask or plug all areas you wish not to duracoat. I just did one of those Sig P6/225 used Greman police guns in Matte Black and I'm satisfied with the results. Even though I used the cheap aerosol applicator that comes with the kit it still came out looking cool. Not as professional as if I had used a full on spray gun with air compressor but still pretty damn nice. Use light even strokes and let dry, then apply further light even strokes. Do Not over spray all at once, you will get DRIPS. BTW, get a good respirator and wear latex gloves when doing this. Because it is not good to breathe in these fumes. Also, when its dry some people like to speed up the curing process by putting in the oven. I was told by another member of this forum to do 250 degrees F for one hour. Looks great after you bake it.

Teletiger7
05-22-2007, 2:21 PM
This link shows a duracoat project that some guys at surplusrifle did. Also on this page are some videos from the duracoat instructional dvd.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006/projectduracoat/index.asp

tenpercentfirearms
05-22-2007, 2:39 PM
Use a water catch that will keep the media from getting wet and clog.

Can you explain this a little better.

So aluminum oxide media is the best way to go then? I saw somewhere else where it was not a good idea to bead blast.

Rule .308
05-22-2007, 2:51 PM
That is one thing that Teletiger touched on that really, really needs to be driven home, this stuff is nasty and you do not want it in your lungs. Although the guys in the Lauer DVD have nothing that resembles a respirator I would definitely get one and do it in a well ventilated place. A typical blast cabinet will come pretty much ready to go and all you need do is add blast media and compressed air. Another thing that helps with the cabinet is to attach a good shop vac to it with a good filter. As you blast away at your stuff the finish, media, and other stuff turn into a very fine powder/dust substance (something else that you do not want to breathe). You are prepping the surface here so as to give it an even finish that will give the Duracoat something to cling to and in doing this you will remove any finish that was on there. The small blast cabinet at Harbor Freight will do what you want so long as you are not doing any 20" barrels and that is why I say spend twice the money and get a cabinet that will not slow you down. I have the smaller one and have done alot of stuff in it but I actually went so far as to cut a big hole in one end of it and utilized some tin a/c ducting and a heat register to make it so it would accomodate barreled receivers. It works but it is a pain in the butt. As far as bead blasting and parkerizing goes I have done several FALS, a few AKs, a boat load of magazines, and various other things like tripods and the like. Here is a neat trick for small stuff, did you know that you can microwave metal stuff in the oven so long as it is submerged? What this means is that you can cut the top off of a gallon jug, fill it with parkerizing solution, microwave it until it is about 200 degrees, dump your stuff in there and monitor the temp, when it is down to about 170 throw it back in and zap it back up to 200. Do this for about 20 minutes or until the fizzing stops and your stuff is parked. You can use this technique for all kinds of little stuff and you can use anything from a coffee cup to the biggest microwave safe container you have. Once you have hauled out the big old stainless park tanks and camp stoves etc a few times to do this stuff you will really appreciate just tossing the small stuff into the microwave. I don't know if you have a shop to do this stuff in with a microwave but most guy's wives, mine included, will not listen to this crap for two seconds so you might have to get a cheap microwave too.

mark

DB2
05-22-2007, 3:07 PM
Can you explain this a little better.

So aluminum oxide media is the best way to go then? I saw somewhere else where it was not a good idea to bead blast.


Use a water catch on your air line that feeds your blasting nozzel. The condensation that is made from the compressor compressing the air will come out with the air. As it syphones the sand or other media from the pickup the water will leak out into it and cause it not to pick up, or it will clog the nozzel. In a cabinet where the media is recycled, it can cause problems

Think about like this.................. run your hand through dry sand, see how loose and free it is. Now poor water on it and see how thick it is. Keep it dry, it works way better.

tenpercentfirearms
05-22-2007, 3:14 PM
Where do I get a water catch? So I just install it between the compressor and the blaster right?

The microwave idea is a good one especially since if I wanted to, I could probably find a used microwave somewhere and use it for parking only.

So do you park magazines and other little parts before Duracoating them too? Is that only on steel parts or aluminum too? I was thinking it would be cool to make some pink magazines to go with the pink furniture.

When I was doing my initial Duracoat research, I saw where a guy made a paint booth out of a cardboard box, a common AC filter, and a box fan. That might be a good idea for keeping the fumes minimized in my garage.

Keep the good info coming.

xrMike
05-22-2007, 3:24 PM
Can you explain this a little better.

So aluminum oxide media is the best way to go then? I saw somewhere else where it was not a good idea to bead blast.Using aluminum oxide would be considered "sand blasting" I think.

Sand blasting is more abrasive than bead blasting.

Pryde
05-22-2007, 8:44 PM
I have used and still use Duracoat extensively.

Basically there are a few basic rules you must follow.

1- All parts must be media blasted OR parkerized prior to Duracoating or else it won't stick worth sh*t. Do not bead blast, blast with garnet or aluminum oxide. Most pros use garnet.
Plastic parts do not need to be media blasted, you can just sand them and give them a grippy surface and the Duracoat will adhere forever as long as the part is properly degreased. Just remember not to sand them too much, Duracoat is kind of thin and will not hide deep imperfections.

2- All parts must be thoroughly degreased prior to Duracoating, do not use any sort of degreaser that will leave residue (brake cleaner). What has worked well for me in the past is a denatured alcohol scrub with a toothbrush. The lauer degreaser they sell is good but it evaporates quickly, so you will probably end up using at least a third of a can degreasing a rifle. (The stuff is expensive)

3- Mix large batches at a time unless you can measure fluids reliably. The ratio of hardener to Duracoat used effects how shiny the finish is, small imbalances in separate batches will cause noticeable difference in finish. If you spray half a batch and mix another one, one half of your rifle will be shinier than the other.

4- Don't skimp on the airbrush. A cheaper airbrush will always spray a thicker and more uneven mist, leaving little droplet markings or runs on your finish. Any air compressor should do as long as it is waterless. I use a $150 Badger airbrush compressor and it works perfectly for all Duracoat applications and it is quiet enough to use indoors without waking the neighbors. You must have a compressor, canned air is unreliable, expensive and will make your weapon look like crap.

5- Clean your airbrush and tools well (I use lacquer thinner) after Duracoating. It may seem obvious but I am stupid and I have ruined airbrushes from neglecting to clean off duracoat for a few hours after use.

6- Let it dry/cure for at least 2 days before putting everything together. Newbies will get tempted to assemble everything after the Duracoat is dry to the touch and find it will chip or rub off.

7- Like the other dude said, don't breathe it in, leave your garage door open if possible. Any breathing mask with filters that you get from home depot should be sufficient, you don't need a box setup, it will just make it harder to spray it evenly and get hard angles.

8- When you are starting out spray on a light setting until you get a feel for it, make multiple passes if you have to.

10- If you want Duracoat on the cheap, go to any Sherwin Williams store and ask them to order you a gallon of POLANE, it is the same damn thing, I have used both products and can attest to this. Lauer just repackages it and offers better color selection. Lacquer thinner is also pretty much the same thing as "Duracoat Reducer".

11- -Very Important- Have a big jug of lacquer thinner handy before you start. Lacquer thinner will strip Druacoat instantly if it has not yet hardened. If you mess up on something, give it a dunk, scrub, and degrease it again and start over. You cannot paint over your mistakes, it will end up looking like sh*t. It is also handy for cleaning up Duracoat spills and getting it off your hands.


That's all for now, if you have any more Q's feel free to ask me.

draconianruler
05-22-2007, 9:42 PM
10- If you want Duracoat on the cheap, go to any Sherwin Williams store and ask them to order you a gallon of POLANE, it is the same damn thing, I have used both products and can attest to this. Lauer just repackages it and offers better color selection. Lacquer thinner is also pretty much the same thing as "Duracoat Reducer".
.

I was about to say the same thing ;) Only some Sherwin Williams stores carry Polane. The one in SF I believe does in the Bay Area.

Pryde
05-22-2007, 10:19 PM
I was about to say the same thing ;) Only some Sherwin Williams stores carry Polane. The one in SF I believe does in the Bay Area.

If they have it in-store it will usually only be in white. You can ask them to order it for you in any color and they will have it in a week or so.

tenpercentfirearms
05-22-2007, 11:44 PM
I have read about Polane. My only question is what part of Duracoat doesn't last long? It wouldn't make sense to buy a ton of the stuff to "save money" if it is just going to go bad.

What kind of sanding paper do your recommend for the platic parts?

I am assuming I can probably find laquer thinner just about anywhere for much less cost right? Where do I get denatured alcohol?

Man, as long as my fragile ego can handle asking such NOOB questions and the NOOBs can handle searching, we might very well know everything there is to know about Duracoat soon. You guys are awesome!

REDHORSE
05-23-2007, 12:48 AM
I've refinished quite a few of my own firearms and those of my friends. I've not used Duracoat yet, but have used KG Gun-Kote, Norrells, Aluma-Hyde, other two-part epoxy finishes, and I have also Parkerized my own stuff.

Surface preperation is by far the most important step in getting a really good finish on your firearm.

Sanding and using steel-wool for surface prep is way more inferior to media blasting the parts.

I've abrasive media blasted with glass beads, aluminum oxide, and sand. I prefer using aluminum oxide over glass beads. It seems to clean the surface better and leave a surface that results in a better finish with Parkerizing and the spray finishes.

I've pretty much aluminum oxide blasted most of my rifles & pistols, then Parkerized them. Even if I plan on painting the firearm, I've always blasted the parts, Parkerized, then painted them. The Parkerizing just gives the paint a better surface to bite into. Making it more durable and less likely to scratch or flake off.

For Parkerizing. You don't need much. A burner, stainless steel pot (cooking pot) or SS tank, thermometer. A lot of the stuff/tools can be purchased cheaply at Harbor Freight.

Brownells has a Free booklet on how to do it right. It has all the info you need and step by step instructions. I have a DIY Parkerizing page with just the basics: http://www.freewebs.com/socal_webshooters/diy_home_parkerizing.htm

Parkerizing is very very easy and so is spray refinishing. Prep is key. Patience & care and the right tools will result in a finish you would be proud of.

For plastic stuff, I've also give it a light surface prep with media blaster using either glass beads or aluminum oxide. I just reduce the air pressure I use in the gun. Just enough to remove the shininess, but not to hard to pit the surface.

Pryde
05-23-2007, 5:06 AM
I have read about Polane. My only question is what part of Duracoat doesn't last long? It wouldn't make sense to buy a ton of the stuff to "save money" if it is just going to go bad.

What kind of sanding paper do your recommend for the platic parts?

I am assuming I can probably find laquer thinner just about anywhere for much less cost right? Where do I get denatured alcohol?

Man, as long as my fragile ego can handle asking such NOOB questions and the NOOBs can handle searching, we might very well know everything there is to know about Duracoat soon. You guys are awesome!

Duracoat shelf life is about 6-7 months, buying Polane is about 70% cheaper than buying Duracoat. If you just want BLACK then buy Polane, if you want camo or other whatnot, get Duracoat.

If you are gonna just sand the plastic parts, I recommend 150 grit or possibly 200.

Denatured alcohol and lacquer thinner can be found cheap in any hardware store/home depot, probably less than $15 a gallon.

DV8
05-23-2007, 7:38 AM
Heres a few tips I found useful when I just started using Duracoat:

1. Prep is key. Thoroughly degrease all parts with a cleaner that doesnt leave any residue. Mineral spirits, thinner etc. Blast parts first, then degrease. Use latex gloves when handling cleaned parts so you dont leave any oils from your hands that could mess up the finish.

2. Small pock marks, dents can be covered with an epoxy of some sort prior to spraying. I've used JB weld and little bits of the clay like epoxy stuff to fill in these little craters and years later its held up well.

3. Test your spray pattern using water on a light piece of cardboard.

4. Practice on a spare piece of metal, like an ammo box or something. This is really helpful if you want to play with camo patterns.

5. Even though Lauer says you can assemble the sprayed parts in 1 or 2 days, its best to wait a week or more if you can. Thats how long it takes to harden the finish so it doesnt chip. In this area, I think GunKote is better because it hardens enough after baking that the finish doesnt chip and can handle assembly and light use without chipping.

6. Immediately clean your brush and accessories with your cleaner after use.

7. Mix large batches if you're doing a lot of parts. Little variances in base to hardener ratios mean you end up with a finish with varying degrees of sheen.

8. Use a respirator and work in a REALLY WELL ventilated area.

I dont park much but I found that:

1. PREP IS KEY! (see above). Make sure you blast the parts thoroughly, park wont happen on parts that still have some of the old finish on them.

2. Buy a good thermometer and make sure you keep a consistent temp.

3. When parking barrels, make sure to plug the ends. I use wooden plugs for this, you can use bits of rags too just make sure they're in there tight.

4.Wear a respirator and DO NOT breathe in the parking fumes. If you do, it hurts like hell (ask me how I know).

5. When done, wash the parts with water then oil the parts. Parkerizing is basically rusting the metal and you want to stop the process as soon as you get the parts out of the tank.

If you want to get a little taste of how parkerizing works, you can get a kit here: http://www.shootersolutions.com/
thats what I used to use and their kit is really effective. I've done complete 1911s with this kit and its always turned out ok. There are also some homebrew formulas out there but I didnt try any of them so YMMV.

Instead of buying expensive tanks from Brownells, I went to swap meets, garage sales, discount stores and ebay to buy stainless steel pots, thermometers etc. Its a lot cheaper. You can also use glass containers and PVC pipe.

For blasting, Harbor Freight tools is your friend. I got a portable blaster for 17 or 18 bucks at the time, then built a blasting cabinet using scrap material I had on hand. Ended up with a blasting setup for $30 or so. I had an old compressor already thats how I kept the cost so low. Harbor has those on sale from time to time too.

supergimp
05-24-2007, 4:38 PM
The one thing that they do not mention about the Duracoat is that if you are a lagger and do not get right onto your project that the hardener will kick off right in the bottle and when you get your lazy *** around to that project 3-6 months down the road your hardener is no good and you will need to order more.

Is there anyway to tell if the hardener has gone bad? I have a 4-month old kit but the hardener looks just like when I got it. The bottles have never been opened.

Draven
05-25-2007, 11:04 PM
I just finished duracoating several prop firearms. Some were cobbled together from cheap airsofts, but one specific one was made from an airsoft and a large rifle-sized watergun.

The airsofts painted fine with a little surface sanding and cleaning, but the darned watergun, the paint just keeps on peeling! Having to be careful with it- literally sanded it till the surface was coarse- it still peels.

arfan66
05-25-2007, 11:47 PM
Duracoat is awesome stuff. I've done several projects (I have pics of my Kimber here http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=55337) so far and I highly recommend trying it. I won't rehash the obvious stuff as far as prep work is concerned but I will say that Parkerizing/anodizing enhances duracoats ability to bond with steel/aluminum but isn't mandatory. The key is to increase the surface area either chemically or mechanically (sanding-scuffing with scotchbrite) and keeping everything oil free. When I used to work at an aerospace composite shop, we would do a 'water break' test by running deionized water over the cleaned blasted/scuffed area. If the water beads up like rain on a freshly waxed car then it's still contaminated. If it runs off in a continuous sheet then you're golden and ready to paint/bond.

I've done two AK builds so far with excellent durability and all I did for prep was a thorough degreasing, scuff with a maroon scothbrite pad and then degreased again with MEK (a quart at Home Depot was about $7.00).

Don't use paper towels to clean with. they tear and leave a TON of debris/lint. You can buy lint free wipes but they're spendy. I use old, clean plain t-shirts that I cut up. Wipe an area once then fold the cloth over and clean with a new surface otherwise you re-introduce the contaminants to your part.

FYI - Epoxy adhesion to some plastics is poor. I painted the santoprene rail ladders of my Daniel Defense rail and the duracoat peels readily. Typical AR furniture shouldn't have this problem. Just use denatured alcohol or acetone to clean with or else you might melt the part if you leave the solvent on too long.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/sloansteady/05-25-07_2358.jpg

Last bit of advice - Just do it. Duracoat is very forgiving as far as paints go. It really flows well and flashes off (carrier solvent evaporation) quickly. I have a tougher time with Testor's model paints ;)

Good Luck!

Jeff

CALI-gula
05-26-2007, 6:32 PM
Good thread! I'm will be putting the finishing touches on a special "Mikhail" project soon and have been looking at different coating options. I'll want to come back to this when the time comes. Good stuff!!


.

Prc329
05-26-2007, 8:09 PM
Gun-kote works pretty good and does not require an airbrush.

Rule .308
05-27-2007, 12:14 AM
Not that I would recommend sticking your head in the park tank and huffing the fumes but I have never had problems with them being noxious. Understand that parkerizing is not a matter of rusting the metal and stopping the process to create a barrier against further corrosion, not true. In parkerizing, aka phosphating, you are using a solution of phosphorus acid, manganese or zinc, and water to etch the metal and to draw the manganese or zinc out of the solution and to bond with the steel and create a layer of corrosion protection. Because the surface was prepped with a media blaster as well as etched by the process it gives the surface a coarse surface that will hold lubricant and provide all the benefits that come with whatever lubricant/protectant you choose to use. While I have never used bluing salts it is my understanding that the fumes are quite nasty and the process involved there is one of essentially corroding the metal and then stopping the process to form a barrier against further corrosion.

Mark

arfan66
05-27-2007, 1:24 AM
10%......

To answer a question on post #5 - Anodizing by itself is an excellent surface to paint with duracoat. It is much more porous than machined bare aluminum. All that is necessary is to degrease. Blasting an upper or lower also removes the protection against scratches and dings/dents.

Good Luck!

Jeff

DV8
05-27-2007, 9:36 AM
Understand that parkerizing is not a matter of rusting the metal and stopping the process to create a barrier against further corrosion, not true. In parkerizing, aka phosphating, you are using a solution of phosphorus acid, manganese or zinc, and water to etch the metal and to draw the manganese or zinc out of the solution and to bond with the steel and create a layer of corrosion protection. Mark

Ack! you're right. For some reason, I was thinking cold blue when I typed that instead of park. :banghead:

1911whore
05-27-2007, 10:38 AM
ok. So if a guy weanted to do t he Polane as opposed to durocoat. what all is needed and are there any step by step instructions on this? Can the finish be dull or shiny?

arfan66
05-28-2007, 10:54 AM
I got this from the Sherwin Williams website. It seems that Polane is a polyurethane enamel paint.

http://www2.sherwin-williams.com/chemicalCoatings/colorCards/polane.asp?page=3

Hope this helps!

Jeff

chunger
08-16-2007, 3:53 PM
With the Passche cheap airbrush that Lauer sells in their kits, what should I set pressure to in my air compressor?

I'm getting ready to start with my multicam attempt. . . looks daunting with 2 AR's fully dissassembled on the table. I purchased a jug of lacquer thinner, MEK, and denatured alcohol from Home Depot last night.

Kindof a gut check moment right now because of the Meopta R1 scope. Well, back to prep.

C.G.
08-16-2007, 4:30 PM
With the Passche cheap airbrush that Lauer sells in their kits, what should I set pressure to in my air compressor?

I'm getting ready to start with my multicam attempt. . . looks daunting with 2 AR's fully dissassembled on the table. I purchased a jug of lacquer thinner, MEK, and denatured alcohol from Home Depot last night.

Kindof a gut check moment right now because of the Meopta R1 scope. Well, back to prep.

Generally, airbrushes are 25-45 psi.

BTW, this was my first Duracoat job (next time I will use very little or no thinner):
http://www.sailmontereybay.com/Photos/tube/Duracoat_6.5.JPG

metalhead357
08-16-2007, 6:24 PM
Hey Ten..... just a question;

Have ya' considered using anything else beside Duracoat? I've had pretty dang good luck with both Alumahyde II and Brownell's GunKote........

Just throwing it in for other options...not trying to stir the pot:p

Bagger
08-16-2007, 6:31 PM
the Harber Freight Large Blast cabinet for 199.00 works very well.
ive had mine for a few years .

proraptor
08-16-2007, 6:33 PM
I need to duracoat my ak....the BBQ paint doesnt hold up as well as I though

Draven
08-16-2007, 8:36 PM
Bit of advice: Practice first on something cheaper. Want good practise? go buy a cheap airsoft AR and duracoat it first.

drawn
08-18-2007, 10:24 AM
With the Passche cheap airbrush that Lauer sells in their kits, what should I set pressure to in my air compressor?

I'm getting ready to start with my multicam attempt. . . looks daunting with 2 AR's fully dissassembled on the table. I purchased a jug of lacquer thinner, MEK, and denatured alcohol from Home Depot last night.

Kindof a gut check moment right now because of the Meopta R1 scope. Well, back to prep.

The pressure will change slightly due to ambient temperature and hardener mix and age. High pressure and temperature will cause the DuraCoat to flash before hitting the surface. Start at 35psi and lessen the psi until the material goes on wet and you can see it flash on the surface. 3-4 coats allowing the previous coat to flash is better than one thick coat. Be sure to have a coalescer to remove moisture pre airbrush, quite disturbing to see a water blob blow out right on your almost finished part.

chunger
08-20-2007, 10:27 PM
Thanks for all the tips. I think I done over-cleaned my stuff. When the markings started coming off my matech after soaking it in denatured alcohol, I decided enough was enough in the degreasing department. . . I'm starting to ruin things.

So, I cleaned my parts like this:

1. First pass with brake cleaner to get the major grease globs off
2. 1 pass dunk and scrub with Mek
3. 1 pass dunk and scrub w/ denatured alcohol
4. submerge some parts overnight in denatured alcohol

This took forever. . . I was afraid stuff was going to start rusting so I was a bit anxious after the cleaning process started. I never like stuff sitting in the open w/o any protection and it took 3 days working in spurts for me to get everything "reasonably" dis-assembled and cleaned up.

Then some masking


Then hang all the stuff conveniently on mic stands

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/IMG_4644.jpg

I went to the local drug store and found some cheap baby medicine syringes that were very accurate for measuring out duracoat and hardener. They're nice because they seal w/ a cap. The container for catalyst was not big enough to use with the supplied white "filling cap", so I opened up the syringe and loaded the kicker compound in from the back. So, 12 ml of duracoat to 1 ml of catalyst. . . repeatable and easy.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/IMG_4653.jpg

with the compressor set at ~32 lbs., I went at it both feet in. . . as per the recommendations here, I put a tin tray next to my work area and filled it up with lacquer thinner and had a roll of paper towels handy. I 1st filled up the airbrush with lacquer thinner and sprayed some to get a feel for it. The duracoat is thicker, so I had to re-adjust when I switched to the "real" stuff. After measuring hardener and color into the airbrush bottle, I used a small piece of paper towel to cover the vent hole on the bottle and shook the airbrush vigorously to mix. Then, I grabbed a "less obvious" piece in my case, it was the charge handle and started spraying.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/IMG_4647.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/IMG_4650.jpg

Things went really smoothly with the exception of a couple pieces of dust that were on one of the lowers and one of the uppers. I was very pleased with the ease at which this stuff went on. The tray of lacquer thinner and paper towels really made things easy. If I got a blob of duracoat on me, I just stick my hand in there and dry off w/ a towel and I'm good to go. If the brush gets a bit clogged, I just dunk the entire spray tip into the lacquer thinner and I'm good to go.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/IMG_4649.jpg

Oh, it smells like heckfire. . . I used a good filtered respirator and survived. I was afraid the spray would get everywhere, glasses, etc. And it seems the spray gun atomized things well enough that by the time the spray got to anything it wasn't supposed to get on, it was dry dust.

So, the base coat is on, and I'm going to wait several days for it to dry some. Then, assemble the rifles and proceed to using the camo templates I have along with the other colors.

One 4 oz bottle of coyote brown is what I used for the base color, and it was close, but it did cover 2 rifles. I was afraid I'd have to order some more. I left 1 BUIS and the Larue levers uncoated right now because I wanted some coyote brown in reserve in case I mess some thing up and need to touch up upon assembly. This whole painting process is really testing my patience. I hope the end result will be nice, durable, and worthwhile.

C.G.
08-20-2007, 11:10 PM
Good job, but I certainly hope that you were wearing at least a good respirator and did not spray it in your house.

Draven
08-21-2007, 12:01 AM
Nice use of mike stands, i'll have to remember that one

TonyM
08-21-2007, 7:32 AM
Good job, but I certainly hope that you were wearing at least a good respirator and did not spray it in your house.

+1 to that.

With a good respirator and spraying Norrell's outside, I still felt like I had exposure when it was done. I couldn't imagine spraying it inside the house.

StukaJr
08-23-2007, 1:04 PM
Where can I acquire 120gr aluminum oxide media? Would regular hardware stores or art stores have them? Some place in Los Angeles County, preferably :)

chunger
08-30-2007, 7:19 PM
Made some progress. . . this duracoat stuff is fun I'm attempting to do a multicam jobby.

So, here's the sequence I'm thinking of:

1. Base coat coyote brown ---> fade to Desert Mirage tan ----> fade to Magpul Flat Dark Earth

2. Mask 50% then redo step 1.

3. remove masks, mask 50% coat Woodland Green ----> fade to Desert Mirage Mint

4. Leave masks on and mask again 50% of green layer only. . .then repeat step 3.

5. remove all masks put negative masks on ---> spray Woodland Green

6. remove all masks put negative masks on ---> spray white

I sure hope this is going to work. . .

Here's step 1 :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-3.jpg

Before I sprayed this time, I went and thought through my airflow, and w/ some fans creating some negative pressure at the windows, I was able to make the air flow one direction. . . it was actually very good this time. No fumes in the house even if I forget to close the room door, but as usual, I use a good respirator for this sort of thing.

tankerman
08-30-2007, 8:37 PM
Where can I acquire 120gr aluminum oxide media? Would regular hardware stores or art stores have them? Some place in Los Angeles County, preferably :)
http://www.crystalmarkinc.com/powder.htm

tankerman
08-30-2007, 8:38 PM
Made some progress. . . this duracoat stuff is fun I'm attempting to do a multicam jobby.

So, here's the sequence I'm thinking of:

1. Base coat coyote brown ---> fade to Desert Mirage tan ----> fade to Magpul Flat Dark Earth

2. Mask 50% then redo step 1.

3. remove masks, mask 50% coat Woodland Green ----> fade to Desert Mirage Mint

4. Leave masks on and mask again 50% of green layer only. . .then repeat step 3.

5. remove all masks put negative masks on ---> spray Woodland Green

6. remove all masks put negative masks on ---> spray white

I sure hope this is going to work. . .

Here's step 1 :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-3.jpg

Before I sprayed this time, I went and thought through my airflow, and w/ some fans creating some negative pressure at the windows, I was able to make the air flow one direction. . . it was actually very good this time. No fumes in the house even if I forget to close the room door, but as usual, I use a good respirator for this sort of thing.
Dude, is that in your bedroom?

chunger
08-30-2007, 8:51 PM
nope. . . it's the "whatever" room. . . I've been remodelling forever, so it's not uncommon for me to suddenly have a chop saw or some other such debris generating device operating in living spaces. As a whole, this project has been much better than sheetrock dust or tiling dust or floor sanding dust.

StukaJr
08-31-2007, 11:10 AM
Looks good - I'm going to start my test project this weekend

chunger
09-01-2007, 12:23 AM
Here's step 2 done. . . I got myself all confused in the middle of this step because I was mixing such small portions of the 3 colors I'm using in the tan section. . . and I couldn't remember which color was on where. Parts that I thought I nailed didn't turn out as well as I thought, and parts that I thought I botched came out great. Key here I learned is to feather a lot. . . and even if you don't think you want to change the color of a certain section, feather it a little bit to vary the shade a hair. . . and, don't go too heavy after the masks are on. . . the multicam likes fading slowly on the tan layer better. But, it is what it is and I still have the green layer to cover spots I don't particularly like. The wife's will turn out better. . . 2nd one always turns out better

The templates I bought from www.bulldogarms.com are well shaped, but do not stick as well as i need them to. I ended up cutting most of my templates out from 3m blue painter's tape. . . the wide roll. I just drew on them w/ a pen and cut out with scissors as I went along. Sometimes, I used the purchased templates and stuck them down in a corner w/ shaped blue tape to make them stay put around bends. Masking takes longer than I anticipated.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-08.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-12.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-13-1.jpg

step 3 to come!!!

Ironworker
09-01-2007, 2:51 PM
Well at the muzzle it has chipped a very slight amount( 1/64th) but enough to see that some has come off. I've had this rifle in the field a few times. I think the chipping has stopped,plus I'm not a perfectionist so I'm not losing any sleep over it.Barrel was coated by BBL makers that installed their bbl on my rifle,uncertain of prep they used????????????:confused:

Boomer1961
09-01-2007, 9:06 PM
DUDE!

THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE AN AFGHAN RIFLE, and even has the same camo pattern.

But seriously for this duracot stuff

How about CLP, I am now addicted to the stuff and get euphoric just smelling the stuff when I am doing a quick cleaning or lubricating of my firearms. is duracoat friendly for this?

How about the internals? Do we paint those as well. The coating looks a bit thick so I am wondering about things like hammers/holes/pins, bolt rails, locking lugs. Does it go on thin enough for there to be no jamming and still allow smooth operation?

Also I have a FAL build from long ago that I never finished. It is parkerized but has the Israeli pipe wrench booger marks on the barrel, some filing around the front of the barrel/receiver to get it to time just right, and a few blems. Can I just duracoat over existing parkerizing if cleaned (anyone try this) and what about the few blems? will they show through the coating?

My problem is that with a registered AW I can only have registered AW gunsmiths work on it, though I could take the parts off of it and claim that it is now not a AW but I would run a risk of getting deregistered and I would hate to loose my AW status on that. Not to hijack a thread but as an alternative to self applied duracoat or similar are there alternatives to getting an AW finished in the EASTBAY (SF AREA) that does not involve personally taking out of state to someone that can do that in a RED FREE STATE (funny, the Red states were referred to by the great Reagan the evil ones 20 years ago)

Oh, and about your rifle, It does look just like this one, right down to the cammo job/

http://www.russianswords.com/afgan-musket1.JPG


GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!



Here's step 2 done. . . I got myself all confused in the middle of this step because I was mixing such small portions of the 3 colors I'm using in the tan section. . . and I couldn't remember which color was on where. Parts that I thought I nailed didn't turn out as well as I thought, and parts that I thought I botched came out great. Key here I learned is to feather a lot. . . and even if you don't think you want to change the color of a certain section, feather it a little bit to vary the shade a hair. . . and, don't go too heavy after the masks are on. . . the multicam likes fading slowly on the tan layer better. But, it is what it is and I still have the green layer to cover spots I don't particularly like. The wife's will turn out better. . . 2nd one always turns out better

The templates I bought from www.bulldogarms.com are well shaped, but do not stick as well as i need them to. I ended up cutting most of my templates out from 3m blue painter's tape. . . the wide roll. I just drew on them w/ a pen and cut out with scissors as I went along. Sometimes, I used the purchased templates and stuck them down in a corner w/ shaped blue tape to make them stay put around bends. Masking takes longer than I anticipated.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-08.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-12.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Duracoat-13-1.jpg

step 3 to come!!!

chunger
09-01-2007, 9:14 PM
DUDE!

But seriously for this duracot stuff

How about CLP, I am now addicted to the stuff and get euphoric just smelling the stuff when I am doing a quick cleaning or lubricating of my firearms. is duracoat friendly for this?

How about the internals? Do we paint those as well. The coating looks a bit thick so I am wondering about things like hammers/holes/pins, bolt rails, locking lugs. Does it go on thin enough for there to be no jamming and still allow smooth operation?


It interferes ... I masked off the internals of the upper when painting. CLP should be no problem. The finish is friendly to firearms solvents and cleaners when cured.

chunger
09-04-2007, 1:26 AM
It has it's moments. . . but it's also got its problems (went too heavy on the green) . . . just the white and dark brown accents to go now. I'm generally pleased, but should have backed down the green a bit more. I also didn't re-mask the green to get contrast fades within the green like I did the tan. The paint was getting a bit thick on the masks, and lines were starting to form at the transitions. The Woodland green wasn't working for me so I mixed it 10 parts Woodland Green 2 parts Magpul flat dark earth. Didn't want to have to mix colors for repeatability, but with all the fading going on in Multicam, you can get away with some custom mixes.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/TanandGreen.jpg

shonc99
09-04-2007, 12:31 PM
I bought the Duracoat kit from Brownells to try everything out.

The canned air is an ok air source but you need to set it into a bowl or bucket of water to keep the can from freezing. this will allow you to run the airbrush non-stop.

The airbrush is EXACTLY the same $4.99 el cheapo one from H.F.

The nuisance mask is a JOKE. You had better have a respirator or some serious forced ventilation.

I did zinc parkerizing on an AK receiver after blasting it in a HF cabinet. Used HP air to dust it off then straight into the tank. Couldn't have been easier.

Only caution is to spray the item sparignly. Do not continue to spray to use up the duracoat. Your item will end up WAY to thick and chip or scratch. Ask me how I know :o

chunger
09-11-2007, 3:01 AM
CRAP. . . my cheap airbrush that came w/ the duracoat gave out today. . . the air valve was always a bit sketchy, but it popped out of the top and there's no way to dis-assemble the thing. One of the seals is shredded. Is there somewhere in the Bay Area I can go to get a replacement? What model should I consider? I don't need any more features than the brush that was supplied (pretty minimal). . . I just need it to be a bit more robust and serviceable.

shonc99
09-11-2007, 7:52 AM
Harbor Freight sells an airbrush kit that includes several cups.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93506

This seems to be the cheapest yet better option

drawn
09-11-2007, 7:56 AM
nowhere at 2am:). Now that it's after 8:00 try Aaron brothers or similar art store. Harbor freight but I don't think there is one in the bay area.

Call this place if they don't carry airbrushes they should know who does.
The Hobby Co of San Francisco
(415) 386-2802
5150 Geary Blvd
San Francisco, CA 94118

Here is another place on the other side of the bay.
Blick ART Materials
5301 Broadway
Oakland, CA, 94618
(510) 658-2787

www.dickblick.com...

My Badger has been working for me for 15 years. I replaced the nozzle about 3 years ago.

Harbor Freight Tools No 268
535 Contra Costa Blvd, Pleasant Hill - (925) 689-7235

chunger
09-11-2007, 11:29 AM
I'm off to blick. . . there's one fairly close to me. In the back of my mind, I was hoping the cheap brush would work, but I should have gone with my normal instinct of buying a quality tool.

I'll see what they have at blick

Draven
09-11-2007, 12:50 PM
My duracoat kit actually came with the $15 Harbor Freight airbrush... It has to be cleaned periorically by disassembling it and running something through the innards, I usually use the wire out of a twist tie after making a little loop to catch goop on.

chunger
09-11-2007, 2:22 PM
The unit that Lauer shipped w/ the finish worked out pretty good. . . the air valve was a bit sketchy the whole time though and the innards finally blew out the top. I can't find any screws or points to dissasemble the air valve portion. It could not be shoved back in. Had the air valve not popped out, the paint end of the airbrush would have been fine for a good while longer. I dunk the entire brush in laquer thinner after every use overnight, and every couple of times, dissassemble and de-gunk the paint side mechanically.

I bought a Paasche H set at the art store, and it's working out pretty well. 3 tip sizes to choose from, and the mechanicals are more robust. I can completely dis-assemble the unit to clean or replace parts. Had I purchased one online at first, it would have only been ~$30 more than what Lauer charged for their brush, but lucky me, I get to pay premium at the local art store. Oh well, I don't mind supporting a place that stocks this sort of thing. Had I only been doing 1 rifle, the cheap Lauer would have gotten through it, but I'm doing like 5 layers on 2 rifles w/ a lot of paint change going on.

It was nice, however to have 2 paint bottles. With the fade layers, I was able to get a much better result without having to clean/reload a bottle every time I switch colors. Base coat on the wife's . . . this one's going pink next. I'm getting more fluid w/ the fading now.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Rahimetan.jpg

And, I'm back to making progress. . . both rifles are caught up now, and I have just 2 more steps to go. . . hopefully the masking and spraying will be simpler because they're the accent layers w/ negative mask. But, for now,

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/pinklayer2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/pinklayer3.jpg

Wife's going to be real excited when she comes home tonight :)

StukaJr
09-21-2007, 11:39 AM
Put together my SKS that has been curing for over 3 weeks:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7844/steptwomg6.jpg

Good learning project for a firearm that was in worse shape even if I screwed up (which I did in a few areas) - got away with sandpaper surface prep.

metalhead357
09-21-2007, 6:24 PM
ohhhh DO tell us about that stock!:D

chunger
09-22-2007, 1:38 PM
All done... phew. . . that was a project.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/Pinkdone2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/donetogether.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/accessories.jpg

arfan66
09-22-2007, 5:32 PM
Very Cool! I can appreciate the matching ear defenders. I noticed the buffer tube and LaRue levers were painted as well. I have a U15 stock on one of my rifles and can't imagine shooting it without the foam cover. It isn't painted but now you've got me thinking....Hmmmm, maybe an urban multicam pattern.....My other rifle (6.8mm SPC) isn't quite as complicated:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/sloansteady/IMG_0841.jpg

Charliegone
09-22-2007, 8:20 PM
Very Cool! I can appreciate the matching ear defenders. I noticed the buffer tube and LaRue levers were painted as well. I have a U15 stock as well on one of my rifles and can't imagine shooting it without the foam cover. It isn't painted but now you've got me thinking....Hmmmm, maybe an urban multicam pattern.....My other rifle isn't quite as complicated:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/sloansteady/IMG_0841.jpg

Wow...nice.:cool:

StukaJr
09-24-2007, 11:32 AM
ohhhh DO tell us about that stock!:D

Bought off Ebay, made by the guy with a handle of "fixguns" - he puts them up for sale every month or so.

slick_711
09-24-2007, 11:41 AM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/chungsteroonie/donetogether.jpg

Those look amazing! Great work!

Franksremote
09-24-2007, 12:35 PM
Those look amazing! Great work!

VERY nice :)

metalhead357
09-24-2007, 5:59 PM
Bought off Ebay, made by the guy with a handle of "fixguns" - he puts them up for sale every month or so.

Thank you for that...thought she got lost in the rest of the posts.

Dudes! Some of you are doing some awsome work:D

StukaJr
09-28-2007, 6:47 PM
Thank you for that...thought she got lost in the rest of the posts.

Dudes! Some of you are doing some awsome work:D

I try to revisit my photographic posts and see if there are any inquiries / suggestions... :cool:

Just a note, the stocks I saw the last couple of months are laminate of a different wood - it's warmer colors while mine were more of a "sping camo" laminate. Also, there is some fitting required - none in the inlet, but around the handguard and barrel fits into the stock. That is, however, due to variations in SKS's produced in various countries (mine is ChiCom) - yours could be a drop in...

I'm going to buy another one in the near future - hope we are not in the bidding war :43: