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View Full Version : Need help shooting Prone (and in general) **Update 7/18, shooting low& to the right**


Moress
06-21-2012, 10:46 PM
Hello,

So this summer I'm off school, no internship and no summer school, and I'm still looking for a summer job, but I figure I'll use this free time to practice shooting. Now, let me start off by saying, no one ever taught me, I learned myself, or from what I picked up from the intarwebs.

Lately, I've been practicing my prone shooting. I shoot at about a 45 degree angle, with my right leg kind of close to my butt, with my knee kind of pushing up against the ground. I rest my left hand almost flat and hold the rifle with that hand. I shoot fine at 50 and 75 yards. I can get 9/9 shots on a standard piece of note book paper (I'm not going for precision yet, I wanna be able to at least hit the damn paper first... :p ), but at 100 yards, it all goes to hell. I can make approximately 50% of my shots land on paper at 100, and it's typically all over the place, but I notice the majority that hit are near the bottom right.

My second issue I have is scrapping my right shoulder when I fire in the prone when I'm shooting my M1. Its fine when I practice with my .22, but my end goal is to get good with my M1 so I can shoot at my ranges high power matches. Is there anything in my technique I can do to help mitigate this? I have the rifle tucked in pretty good into the pocket when I shoot, but hot dang, that 30-06 kicks regardless.

If anyone knows of any good prone shooting videos on Youtube, I'd greatly appreciate them, or ones of shooting technique in general. Like I said, I have a looong summer of nothing, so I wanna shoot often if I can.

Also, if anyone lives in Atascadero and has a membership at the range here, and is looking for a shooting buddy that they wouldn't mind sharing their secrets with, I'm always looking for someone to shoot with! :)

trigger hippie
06-21-2012, 10:52 PM
Interesting. Have you seen the field manuals or the Army Marksmanship Unit page? They'll tell you right. I recall that they said this:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/292/img4832h.jpg

not this

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2JFLfUrJEc-fDPfmhlGtEcBszd5yiAWByqBSFvtTD1kLXQ5tYxA

jshoebot
06-21-2012, 10:55 PM
Interesting. Have you seen the field manuals or the Army Marksmanship Unit page? They'll tell you right. I recall that they said this:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/292/img4832h.jpg

not this

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2JFLfUrJEc-fDPfmhlGtEcBszd5yiAWByqBSFvtTD1kLXQ5tYxA

That first picture is a guy using a bipod, that second picture is a guy shooting unsupported.

The army and Marine Corps may teach the legs straight method, but look at how their shooting teams shoot service rifle competitions, and you'll see them the same way the guy in the second picture is positioned.

To the OP: go to an Appleseed, they'll get you set up on good fundamentals. www.appleseedinfo.org

Another thing you can do is head to your local range's highpower matches, and talk to the shooters! The highpower crowd is generally a friendly and helpful bunch of people, and they'll give you tips and stuff.

jshoebot
06-21-2012, 11:05 PM
Here's an Army Marksmanship Unit shooter shooting highpower competition:
http://cdn.ammoland.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/USAMU-Staff-Sgt-Scott-Grant-US-Army.jpg

And here's the USMC Shooting Team:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/ifphoto/5236930082_9f1da840bf_o.jpg

milotrain
06-21-2012, 11:10 PM
I thought I was a pretty good shot. Then I started shooting with highpower folks. First week you are humbled but you see what they can do, second week you see some improvement, third week you are doing things you never thought you could do with a rifle and irons sights.

Go shoot an appleseed, then go shoot highpower.

Some basic notes:
1. Establish a natural point of aim. Think of yourself like the little green plastic soldiers. Remember how you had to point their whole body to aim them at the target? That's what you need to do. You don't want to lay down and point the gun with your arms, you want to lay down in such a way that your natural position is aiming at the target. You do this by lying down, getting the gun on target, then closing your eyes and relaxing while taking a few breaths. Relax all your muscles. Open your eyes and see where the rifle is pointing, then shimmy your hips around until you are on target. Do this as many times as you have to before you are on target. DONT MUSCLE THE GUN.

2. Focus on the front sight, not the rear sight, not the target. Just the front sight blade. Make that clear, blur the rest.

3. Dry fire a bunch at home. Make sure you are not jumping on the trigger, but instead moving it directly to the back smoothy. Test this at the range with a bag of 20 live rounds with 5 or so dummy rounds mixed in. If you jump on a dummy you know you are not shooting smoothly.

Moress
06-21-2012, 11:22 PM
I've heard a LOT about appleseed, unfortunately, there are none around me. Just checked their schedule. :(

jshoebot
06-21-2012, 11:43 PM
I've heard a LOT about appleseed, unfortunately, there are none around me. Just checked their schedule. :(

It's worth the drive. I'm an instructor with the RWVA for Appleseed, and I drive as far north as Santa Barbara to help instruct events. Totally worth it man, check one out if you get the chance.

DannyInSoCal
06-21-2012, 11:50 PM
1). Proper position.

2). Sight picture.

3). Trigger reset.

4). Breathing.

FourLoko
06-22-2012, 12:34 AM
must be the trigger, jerking it?

at 100 yards, hitting a standard paper plate is easy seated at the bench, prone would be cake

Moress
06-22-2012, 1:37 PM
I found this video on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UE8RDSyrJY Its really good, I just wish it had a close up on the shooters left arm/head being lined up.

ouch1
06-22-2012, 1:46 PM
Look at the instructors arm at the :45 mark. Then imagine it resting on the ground in that position. That is pretty much dead on for how the shooters left arm is positioned on the ground.

-ouch1

BTW remember solid bone to ground contact is way more stable than if it was muscle to ground contact.

thaiphob25
06-22-2012, 1:58 PM
Those magpul vids about precision shooting did give me alot of insight. check them out.

30Cal
06-22-2012, 2:05 PM
A shooting coat makes things much more comfortable. Lacking that; sweatshirt. A clever guy would stitch a chunk of neoprene (mousepad) on the shoulder and on the bottom of the elbow so it doesn't walk around. Also, google around and see how to get the sling into action. When you're slung in tightly to the rifle, a large fraction of the recoil is absorbed in the front arm. The sling is huge. I can't overstate that enough. A tight sling is good, but don't make it so tight that you can't get the bulk of your mass behind the rifle.

When you shoot the M1/M14, I recommend you get your body behind the rifle as much as you can. When you're out at a 45, my experience is that the recoil will disintegrate your position in short order. This means you will absolutely struggle to shoot good rapidfire scores. This is something that the AR-15 shooters can ignore completely. I think if you can get an expert card shooting the M1/M1a, you'll be leaps and bounds better if/when you transition to the AR.

Get your elbow directly under the rifle. I have also found that repeatability starts at getting the same exact same trigger hand position; the hand sets the benchmark for where the head goes.

Same goes with sitting as far as getting behind the rifle; I get my feet way out in front. My ankles are at about 1 or 2 o'clock here. Rock solid. Note that the elbows are on the front side of the ankles; the flat on the back of the elbow is transferring recoil into the front of the knees.

http://webpages.charter.net/tyoberg/upload/DSCN3290a.JPG

A couple more points on sitting: if you can't get a comfortable head position, it isn't going to fly. If you are struggling to get your eye to the rear sight, you're doing it wrong. You have to be comfortable and it has to be repeatable. Otherwise, the position will again disintegrate, and your target will have a line of shots running down into the corner.

Finally, on shooting matches; go shoot now. Don't wait to practice. You'll learn much more on the competition firing line than you will by your lonesome. A guy that shoots a match today will be kicking your butt regardless of how much you tinker on your own.

gemini1
06-22-2012, 2:13 PM
Have you seen this very old training video? it might help.

http://archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1

ouch1
06-22-2012, 2:23 PM
Here you go: http://www.scribd.com/mrbill/d/432351-USMC-MCRP-301A-Rifle-Marksmanship

That should help out alot. It covers shooting positions and how to use the sling properly when shooting.

-ouch1

30Cal
06-22-2012, 2:26 PM
Also, practice rapidfire. Get yourself two or three 2rd clips. Shoot 2, reload, shoot 2, reload, shoot 2.

Most importantly; offhand. Dryfire. Make a dot you can hang on the wall that is the same width as the front sight. Dryfire. Be picky about each shot. Extremely picky. Natural point of aim every time. The most important thing when you dryfire is NEVER, EVER, ACCEPT A BAD SHOT. If you've had the rifle hung out there too long, put it down and start over. DO NOT PRACTICE BAD HABITS. Don't press on when you are fading. Don't practice too much; when you stop "shooting" well, stop. Same goes with livefire. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to shoot live offhand rounds when its windy either for the same reason; it builds a habit of accepting bad shots.

It is extremely helpful to plot and score every dryfire shot. Be brutally critical and honest. This pays enormous dividends; it's the difference between shooting mediocre scores and winning ones. Remember that matches are won in offhand.

Lazyme
06-22-2012, 2:33 PM
+1 on Appleseed. Learn some history, learn to shoot a rifle, shoot some awesome guns & meet people who are into the same sh$@ you!!

I drove 2 1/2 hours from Sacramento to Gardnerville, NV about 2 weeks ago and I can't wait to do it again. I shoot so much better now, well worth a tiny drive.

Moress
06-22-2012, 5:21 PM
Well, I continue to suck. Went out again with my .22 and 50 rounds for the second day in a row. I'm still only hitting about half of my shots. Tomorrow I plan to go back out with 100 and a large sheet of paper to make sure its properly sighted in, and go back to practicing my technique.

I want to get me prone down before I move on to seated and standing.

anymoose
06-22-2012, 5:36 PM
Are you breathing right?

Inhale, exhale, hold it, make sure you have a good sight picture and alignment, gently squeeze the trigger with the meaty portion of your finger.

Don't anticipate, don't think about what the trigger is doing, apply steady and even pressure and let the gun fire.

duggan
06-22-2012, 5:44 PM
Something I haven't seen anyone mention yet is controlling your breathing, in the prone position your breathing is a huge factor in being consistent. You'll want to start your trigger squeeze at the beginning of your natural pause (the time between exhaling and inhaling) holding your breath will only cause your heart rate to rise which will lead to heavier breathing which can throw off your next shots. A quick excercise you can do at home if you have someone there to help you out is to balance a dime on a cleaning rod inserted into the muzzle end of an unloaded rifle, slowly squeeze the trigger till it breaks. If you are doing everything correctly (breathing, trigger squeeze, no flinching) the dime should stay balanced. If not have your helper balance the dime again. Good luck and don't get discouraged.

duggan
06-22-2012, 5:44 PM
Moose ya beat me as I was typing lol.

russ69
06-22-2012, 8:41 PM
Interesting. Have you seen the field manuals or the Army Marksmanship Unit page? They'll tell you right. I recall that they said this:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/292/img4832h.jpg

not this

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2JFLfUrJEc-fDPfmhlGtEcBszd5yiAWByqBSFvtTD1kLXQ5tYxA

Wrong, that went out with the Springfield rifle. For highpower, you should get straight behind your rifle with a low sling position. Look around on the web there are tons of video. Also go to a highpower match and just observe, you will learn a lot just by watching.

pyromensch
06-22-2012, 9:04 PM
the second pic is how i did it, 4 yrs in usmc, intramural, and 1 division match, with the m-14, (long time ago)

by the way, that second pic is how i do it...left handed

right handers, would have their right knee up

trigger hippie
06-22-2012, 9:18 PM
Humbling and excellent thread, tagged.

Would it be inaccurate to characterize these two schools of thought on prone as combat vs. competition, I wonder?

jshoebot
06-23-2012, 12:00 AM
Humbling and excellent thread, tagged.

Would it be inaccurate to characterize these two schools of thought on prone as combat vs. competition, I wonder?

Good observation, that's exactly right. However, in combat I'd prefer to be as far away as possible from whoever it is I'm trying to shoot, so that I could use the 'competition' position. Honestly I'd use it anyway. Keeping the legs straight is just to keep the rest of your body as low as possible when rounds are incoming. If you hike your leg up, it does two things:

1. It gets your diaphragm off the ground, so when you breath you don't get the HUGE movement up and down on the front sight that you do when you lay flat.
2. It helps to absorb recoil from higher caliber rifles. When you hike your leg up and keep your shin in line with the rifle, your body acts like a coiled spring. As the shot breaks and the rifle pushes against your shoulder, the shape of your body absorbs the recoil and when the force of recoil is done, the front sight drops right back to wherever your NPOA was set.

It's debatable on which type of prone position is more stable, but as one who has used both, I prefer this method:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/ifphoto/2012-02-19152851.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/ifphoto/2012-02-19152807.jpg

jshoebot
06-23-2012, 12:08 AM
Here's a good picture of where the support elbow should be. Notice how it's DIRECTLY under the rifle. It looks unnatural and it'll hurt, but you'll get used to it and it's very stable:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/ifphoto/_DSC0016640x425jpg.jpg

Moress
06-23-2012, 2:31 AM
Here's a good picture of where the support elbow should be. Notice how it's DIRECTLY under the rifle. It looks unnatural and it'll hurt, but you'll get used to it and it's very stable:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/ifphoto/_DSC0016640x425jpg.jpg

This!

Thank you! I'm glad to know I'm doing that right so far. I feel after laying in my room for hours along with going out to the range for the course of a week my technique is starting to get there, but I think I need to work on my breathing more and my sight picture.

I notice that sometimes my neck feels strained a little bit, but if I have the rifle tucked in almost directly under my head then get my check weld going, it kinda goes away.

Hopefully after tomorrow (today?) I'll get back to you guys on any improvements.

P.S. Thank god for the .22, I'd have spent over $200 easy on 30-06 by now if I was only shooting my M1, LOL. :D

Moress
06-23-2012, 2:38 AM
One more question, what about the right elbow. The instructor says close is good, but should it be resting on the ball of the elbow? I notice that when I shoot on concrete or even dry dirt, the recoil of my M1 is hard enough to scrape the heck out of that elbow. Is this because my form is improper, or because I'm a herp derp and shooting prone on hard surfaces without elbow protection/pad to lay on?

Moress
06-23-2012, 2:39 AM
Crap, one more thing, when I have the rifle to my shoulder, I actually rest it somewhat on my peck muscle, is this proper?

fullrearview
06-23-2012, 5:46 AM
OP try this:

Get your rifle, gear, and anything you may have or want on your person and gear up. Get into the prone you have been shooting for the last however long. Get comfortable because you will be here for awhile. Have someone time you or get a stop watch.

If you get uncomfortable at any time, shift yourself to become comfortable. Keep going until you can stay still for at least 20 minutes without being uncomfortable.

Trust me, after 5 minutes, you will be shifting around quite a bit.

This is what I teach my guys and it works well.

fullrearview
06-23-2012, 5:51 AM
Crap, one more thing, when I have the rifle to my shoulder, I actually rest it somewhat on my peck muscle, is this proper?

Yes. Sounds like you are similar to the magpul train of thought.

tYjitNIEmzw

SocomM4
06-23-2012, 6:43 AM
Jerking in anticipation .

Also, the second pic , is supported too.

Ty whoever you are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLYpbEmomh4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

jshoebot
06-23-2012, 10:20 PM
Crap, one more thing, when I have the rifle to my shoulder, I actually rest it somewhat on my peck muscle, is this proper?

Not necessarily. The stock should be place in your natural shoulder pocket formed by the angle of your arm. In prone, your right elbow should just be planted naturally. If you do it right, it won't slide or scrape at all. Get your left arm and side positioned, then just drop your right elbow to the deck. That's exactly where it should be.

The stock on the peck muscle is more for up-close tactical dynamic ninja type of shooting. For good fundamentals and making longer shots, the way you're positioned will be different from all the tactical operators and ninjas.

jshoebot
06-23-2012, 10:21 PM
And another thing, if you're comfortable in prone, you're doing it wrong. A proper prone position will stretch your muscles to angles they've never been in before, and it WILL hurt. If you're doing it right, you'll be sore when you're done until your muscles get used to the position.

ocabj
06-24-2012, 9:25 AM
One more question, what about the right elbow. The instructor says close is good, but should it be resting on the ball of the elbow? I notice that when I shoot on concrete or even dry dirt, the recoil of my M1 is hard enough to scrape the heck out of that elbow. Is this because my form is improper, or because I'm a herp derp and shooting prone on hard surfaces without elbow protection/pad to lay on?

Right elbow should be placed such that you can put weight on the right arm and it doesn't disturb the rifle's orientation. Where you place it will depend on your body type and how high or low you hold your rifle.

http://www.jocabphoto.com/img/s9/v0/p967915314-4.jpg

http://www.jocabphoto.com/img/s2/v4/p312603447-4.jpg

http://www.jocabphoto.com/img/s2/v1/p990668812-4.jpg

http://www.jocabphoto.com/img/s1/v6/p808080617-4.jpg

30Cal
06-24-2012, 9:44 AM
I pull the M1 and M14 buttplate in tight, more on my pec than shoulder. It gets me more inline with the rifle/recoil. Your mileage may vary.

Also, I've found that the position holds up better under recoil when the shoulders are squared up.

Also, get a mat or at least wear a sweatshirt.

milotrain
06-24-2012, 11:22 AM
And another thing, if you're comfortable in prone, you're doing it wrong. A proper prone position will stretch your muscles to angles they've never been in before, and it WILL hurt. If you're doing it right, you'll be sore when you're done until your muscles get used to the position.


That's certainly true at first, but after practicing at home on a mat with a coat and sweatshirt I can now almost fall asleep in position and the rifle will not fall off my natural point of aim even when I fully relax. It's very comfortable, and if I could release the bolt on an AR in that position I wouldn't leave it.

OP it sounds like something might be up with you jerking something, or a bad batch of ammo or something wrong with the gun. Are you printing a target on that paper or are you just shooting at the page? One thing that a well known highpower shooter discovered in his slow prone was that his hold and trigger control were very good but his shots were going wide, it turned out his sight picture wasn't consistant and that was his problem. Make sure you are not just shooting at a white block.

alfred1222
06-24-2012, 11:33 AM
Awesome thread, tagged

Moress
06-25-2012, 3:38 AM
So are you suppose to be laying on your left side more (if your a right handed shooter) to distribute most of your body weight to your side?

nitroxdiver
06-25-2012, 8:03 AM
OP, there is some outstanding information in this thread, and I commend those for taking the time to write their detailed posts. I have nothing further to add to these excellent replies, except this- I promise you, if seek out an Appleseed, even if you have to drive 4 hours, get a hotel etc., it will be the best investment in your marksmanship improvement you can make. All this great advise here will make a ton more sense with the help of the excellent, patient, caring, volunteer instructor cadre of the Appleseed program.
Take care and keep practicing.

milotrain
06-25-2012, 1:39 PM
One thing you should also check out is the Coalinga Rifle Club:
http://www.coalingarifleclub.org/

They do some serious training and if they are closer than an appleseed that might be a way to go. Jim O'Connell is the coach there and he coaches the California Grizzlies, of whom are some of the best shooters in the nation. Call them up, see if they have open practice anytime and go shoot with him.

An Appleseed will be much more easy to digest, much more a first timer's speed, and might be cheaper. In either case you will learn more then you thought there could be in regards to shooting. RUN do not walk, to whichever you can get to first.

russ69
06-25-2012, 4:40 PM
The bottom line with all positions is that you need to learn and master all the classic positions, then you can start to build a position that works for you. The current trend in prone is a low sling position with one leg pulled up and the body square behind the rifle. There are a bunch of good reasons for that but it would take a book to explain why. Good scores can be shot in other prone positions but they should only be tried after you have mastered the normal position. Again, go to a match, observe and participate, a good position will work out over time.

Moress
06-25-2012, 7:10 PM
Omg, this is the third time I write this up because stupid Firefox crashed on me twice…

As many of you know, I’ve been practicing with my brothers .22, which is a Savage model 64 for the past week, every single day. I mentioned earlier I was having trouble hitting paper at 100 yards. Well it turns out the rear sight assembly is one like this http://www.gun-parts.com/savagerifle/Dec19_01%201.jpg and it was loose where the metal pinches the receiver, causing the majority of my shoots to go approximately two feet to the left, and occasionally hitting paper. I ended up putting the cheap scope that it came with back on, and I’m hitting paper now.

Today I went back with the same .22 (With the scope on, sighted in) and my M1. After getting some practice shots in, I started with 6 rounds from the .22 and then followed it up with 8 rounds from my M1.

With the .22, all six rounds made it atleast in the 5 ring, with one in the ‘X’ and another in the 10 ring. The M1 however was a totally different story. After practicing for a week straight with the .22, I forgot how heavy it was! I could immediately feel the strain in my left bicep and shoulder trying to keep the rifle propped up. I totally forgot about my controlled breathing and as a results the shots went all over the place. You’ll notice from the picture below that one shot landed in the 8 ring, two in the 6 ring, one in the 5, and two on the paper outside the target. One shot went so far to the right it hit the other target completely , while the eighth round was unaccounted for. The larger holes are from the 30-06, while the smaller ones are .22 rounds.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-06-25_17-43-07_722.jpg

I made a few more practice shots and again tried with my M1. This time I wrapped up in my sling, controlled my breathing, and got as comfortable as I could. 7 rounds fell on the target, with one ‘X’ and another in the 10 ring. One of my rounds I broke the trigger before I was 100% ready and that one didn’t even hit the paper.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-06-25_17-57-16_536.jpg
(The small rounds on this target are also from .22, but they were all over the place on this target, just ignore those :D )

Some things I did notice. My shoulder and bicep on my left arm were burning after every eight round session with the M1. Second, the recoil causes the rifle to come up and to the left causing me to completely lose my natural point of aim. In the Youtube video I linked before on the first page, the instructor mentioned that this was due to the left arm not being directly under the rifle, but I feel like it is. Is my form still wrong to cause this, or is the recoil of that 30-06 just that uncontrollable?

P.s. I had most of my weight distributed to the left side of my body this time. It seemed more comfortable, but I’m not sure if this is correct.

17+1
06-25-2012, 8:06 PM
Fire only one shot at a time; offhand stage is slow fire so be sure to take a break between shots. Check for the impact location in your spotting scope. Compare you call to where the hole is in the paper.

You have 22 rounds (2 sighters and 20 for record) to fire in the offhand position. No sling usage allowed in offhand stage of the match so no reason to practice with it. Get the correct reduced offhand target centers with 9, 10, X in the black (SR-1 and SR-1C). Nice thing about those is they are the same target/center for rapid sitting.

I manage to hold up a 15 pound AR just fine during a highpower match. I do workout regularly, but I am not a meat head. See if you have a YMCA in your area, they should have a reduced rate for people under 26 y/o.

jshoebot
06-27-2012, 11:44 AM
Omg, this is the third time I write this up because stupid Firefox crashed on me twice

As many of you know, Ive been practicing with my brothers .22, which is a Savage model 64 for the past week, every single day. I mentioned earlier I was having trouble hitting paper at 100 yards. Well it turns out the rear sight assembly is one like this http://www.gun-parts.com/savagerifle/Dec19_01%201.jpg and it was loose where the metal pinches the receiver, causing the majority of my shoots to go approximately two feet to the left, and occasionally hitting paper. I ended up putting the cheap scope that it came with back on, and Im hitting paper now.

Today I went back with the same .22 (With the scope on, sighted in) and my M1. After getting some practice shots in, I started with 6 rounds from the .22 and then followed it up with 8 rounds from my M1.

With the .22, all six rounds made it atleast in the 5 ring, with one in the X and another in the 10 ring. The M1 however was a totally different story. After practicing for a week straight with the .22, I forgot how heavy it was! I could immediately feel the strain in my left bicep and shoulder trying to keep the rifle propped up. I totally forgot about my controlled breathing and as a results the shots went all over the place. Youll notice from the picture below that one shot landed in the 8 ring, two in the 6 ring, one in the 5, and two on the paper outside the target. One shot went so far to the right it hit the other target completely , while the eighth round was unaccounted for. The larger holes are from the 30-06, while the smaller ones are .22 rounds.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-06-25_17-43-07_722.jpg

I made a few more practice shots and again tried with my M1. This time I wrapped up in my sling, controlled my breathing, and got as comfortable as I could. 7 rounds fell on the target, with one X and another in the 10 ring. One of my rounds I broke the trigger before I was 100% ready and that one didnt even hit the paper.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-06-25_17-57-16_536.jpg
(The small rounds on this target are also from .22, but they were all over the place on this target, just ignore those :D )

Some things I did notice. My shoulder and bicep on my left arm were burning after every eight round session with the M1. Second, the recoil causes the rifle to come up and to the left causing me to completely lose my natural point of aim. In the Youtube video I linked before on the first page, the instructor mentioned that this was due to the left arm not being directly under the rifle, but I feel like it is. Is my form still wrong to cause this, or is the recoil of that 30-06 just that uncontrollable?

P.s. I had most of my weight distributed to the left side of my body this time. It seemed more comfortable, but Im not sure if this is correct.

From looking at your strikes on target, here's what I see:

1. Sling is not tight enough
2. Natural point of aim is not on target
3. Elbow is not under the rifle
4. Jerking the trigger
5. Not focusing your eye on the front sight

Go to an Appleseed man, it's totally worth it. I'm and instructor with the program, if you have any other questions I'd be happy to answer them via PM.

Moress
07-08-2012, 11:47 AM
Hey all,

Its been a while. I went out again today and I'm starting to see some improvements. Here was my first attempt of the day with my M1 after some warming up.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-07-08_11-22-04_289.jpg
I was really proud of this group. There are seven rounds on paper because one flew far right because I flinched hard. I think the reason the rounds all landed to the right was because my natural point of aim was off.

Here was my second attempt after more warming up (ignore the .22 rounds).

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-07-08_12-04-33_9.jpg

As you can tell, this set was a total train wreck. My natural point of aim kept shifting after being prone in the sun for so long, my left arm was getting tired and i was losing my focus. I need to work some more on my endurance.

kendog4570
07-08-2012, 3:03 PM
...I am not a meat head.....


Says who?

anymoose
07-08-2012, 3:14 PM
Hey all,

Its been a while. I went out again today and I'm starting to see some improvements. Here was my first attempt of the day with my M1 after some warming up.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-07-08_11-22-04_289.jpg
I was really proud of this group. There are seven rounds on paper because one flew far right because I flinched hard. I think the reason the rounds all landed to the right was because my natural point of aim was off.

Here was my second attempt after more warming up (ignore the .22 rounds).

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-07-08_12-04-33_9.jpg

As you can tell, this set was a total train wreck. My natural point of aim kept shifting after being prone in the sun for so long, my left arm was getting tired and i was losing my focus. I need to work some more on my endurance.

Looks like youre doing better.

dont get lazy as you shoot, think that every shot is your only shot to make it count. "One Shot - One Kill" mentality, like youre in a competition, and if you miss the shot that youre about to take, you go home. make sure everything is perfect for every shot. take your time, get your NPOA right, your sign picture/ sign alignment, your breathing... just relax and get everything right. if the something doesnt feel right, dont take the shot - reset yourself and try again. the paper isnt shooting back, theres no harm in waiting to make sure everything is perfect.

if you continue to shoot when you arent 100% ready, youre going to build bad habits. i dont wanna say "punishment", but when you get all set up and ready, then realize you did something wrong, correct yourself, its a little bit annoying, so its sort of like a punishment, but do it anyway. get ready all over again, and do it right. dont just say "eff it, close enough" and pull the trigger, youll never know what you or your gun are capable of.

Moress
07-16-2012, 6:18 PM
Went out again with my Mosin this time. Here are the results of my last string of 7 rounds. Ignore the ones with the Red X's, thats from something else.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/2012-07-16_18-48-10_171.jpg

I feel like I'm really starting to improve. I'm a bit inconsistant, but I'm starting to learn to follow all the way through with the trigger and its starting to pay off.

Moress
07-18-2012, 6:01 PM
Went out again, here are some of my results.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n540/Moress70/Untitled.jpg

I can tell that I'm improving, but for the love of god, why am I shooting low and to the right?

ouch1
07-19-2012, 9:24 AM
Your getting there. But one thing to remember is that if you are constantly shooting low and to the right try adjusting your sights to bring your point of impact in line with your aim. And remember proper breathing technique along with the rest of the stuff for a proper shooting position ( i.e. solid positioning, slow trigger pull, and proper sight alignment). Remember that every time the rifle fires it should be a bit of a suprize to you that way you do no anticipate the shot. That will help with trigger jerks.

When I went the Marine Corps boot camp they had us "snapping in" ( dry firing ) for a week solid as a way to get us used to proper firing positions and technique. It also worked as a way to train us not to jerk the trigger.

Nowadays I can put 3 rounds inside the diameter of a quarter at 100yds thanks to that training.

I bet going to an Appleseed class will probably improve your skills quite a bit as they will give you the proper pointers that will help you alot.

-ouch1

Moress
07-19-2012, 10:22 AM
Thanks. Its not the sights because when I shoot from a bench I can put them all in 9 and 10 ring center. I think I'm squeezing my grip when I pull the trigger in anticipation of the recoil.

17+1
07-19-2012, 8:03 PM
Thanks. Its not the sights because when I shoot from a bench I can put them all in 9 and 10 ring center. I think I'm squeezing my grip when I pull the trigger in anticipation of the recoil.

My impacts change with changing position. I shoot about 1 MOA left and about 1 MOA high when I move from offhand to rapid sitting. As long as you're consistent, that's the most important thing. The rear sight is adjustable for a reason.

ouch1
07-20-2012, 8:32 AM
Thanks. Its not the sights because when I shoot from a bench I can put them all in 9 and 10 ring center. I think I'm squeezing my grip when I pull the trigger in anticipation of the recoil.

I have a friend who had a similar issue. A range instructor told him to get a set of nomex pilots gloves and cut off the trigger finger. then to wear the gloves when shooting to see if that helps. It work great for him. Now he wears those same gloves whenever he is shooting. Something about no slipping from sweat, and a better hold on the rifle.

Here is a link to where you can get some: http://store.glennsarmysurplus.com/gi-issue-nomex-pilot-flight-crew-gloves-p306.aspx

-ouch1