PDA

View Full Version : Best shotgun retention grip?


Wombats Are Dangerous
06-21-2012, 10:11 PM
Got into a hypothetical discussion with my brother-in-law about whether a shotgun with a stock is easier to retain in a close-quarters defense scenario with or without a pistol grip.

Is there any majority opinion out there about whether a pistol grip or standard shotgun grip is better if someone gets a hold of your shotgun?

aippi
06-22-2012, 9:21 AM
This is not opinion, it is fact. Stocks with a pistol grip like the SF-IV are fair superior in weapon retension. I know from the hard school.

As an HRT Leader I was responsible for all training. We were not allowed to mdofiy our shotguns back then and they had the hardwood Police stocks. My guys could take one of these shotguns from you in a nano second and bash you in the face with it at the same time.

Our Department Rifle was the Colt LE with solid stocks. These of course have a pistol grip and in the course of our weapons retension training we had a series of mishapps. Several injuries and of course stitches. The one that got me disciplined (written repremand) was a couple thousand dollars of dental work to a team member. I had to suspend weapons retension training with the rifles as it was extremely difficult to have two guys going at it with one haveing a firm grip on that pistol grip. We were later able to find a Defensive Tactics Instructor from Metro Dade who did give us a solid technique for this drill but practiced it at half speed and it was still difficult to remove this weapon from a trained team member.

So it is a fact to me that pistol grip stocks such as the SF-III, SF-IV, SpecOps, Mesa Tactical and others are far superior in weapon retension in any scenerio.

CK_32
06-22-2012, 1:52 PM
I'd say no brainer pistol grip is a lot easier to hold onto due to the way our hands are built.. Better for CQC or better preformance on a shot gun that argument can go on for weeks and comes down to personal preference.

Still on the fence but leaning towards the original style stock for my HD gun. But still feeling out both styles both have their drawbacks to me.

mif_slim
06-22-2012, 2:20 PM
I had A PG on my shotgun for a while. My wife had A PG m500 too. Sold the m500 and changed the PG back to stock.

For me, the PG got in the way for some stuff. Like m500 safety switch. Most difference I noticed was when shooting. The recoil of the gun seems to be concentrated on the web part of the thumb and trigger finger. This caused for more muzzle rise and more wobble during reloading.

It wasn't impossible to manage, but I liked the stock stock more then Pg. That's my preference though. Different folks with different strokes.

adrenaline
06-23-2012, 6:14 AM
I just replaced my factory stock with the Hogue Overrubber stock kit and I realized how much better the grip of it is now. I know with the PG it would have better retention. I have a pretty solid grip and even with the factory stock, the individual would have to be pretty strong to yank it away from me. However, with the new Hogue upgrades, the grip area is thicker (swells) which is great for me because I have big hands. The rubber coupled with the stippling makes it such that I really don't think anyone COULD wrestle it away from me. :43:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7273/7425622504_bac328d50f_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56589483@N06/7425622504/sizes/h/in/photostream/)
(click for larger size)

The bottom comparison shows the added girth with the Hogue stock.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5071/7425622336_d49fe1238d_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56589483@N06/7425622336/sizes/h/in/photostream/)
(click for larger size)

CK_32
06-23-2012, 8:54 AM
I have hogues forend and love it!

BigDogatPlay
06-23-2012, 9:21 AM
The rubber coupled with the stippling makes it such that I really don't think anyone COULD wrestle it away from me. :43:

Actually, yes, it can be wrestled away from you. Even a pistol grip stock can be wrestled away by a reasonably skilled person given time, technique and leverage. The pistol grip makes it much more difficult, as aippi notes in his own experience. While I wasn't a SWAT guy, I still trained pretty extensively in retention and takeaways and the full stock equipped with a pistol grip is far more defensible. The results I observed over time are in line with aippi's, although without the dental work.... ouch.

For what it's worth, more girth on the grip opens your hand more. On the flip side the texturing on the Hogue units is definitely a plus for gaining firm hold on the weapon in all manner of shooting positions and is one of the reasons why I prefer Hogue models for a conventional stock

adrenaline
06-23-2012, 9:41 AM
Actually, yes, it can be wrestled away from you. Even a pistol grip stock can be wrestled away by a reasonably skilled person given time, technique and leverage.Would this require that the individual be just standing there doing nothing but holding the shotgun?

While I'm not SWAT trained, I'm into various martial arts. I would love to see this done if not to test my skill....but to also learn from it. :D


For what it's worth, more girth on the grip opens your hand more.

I totally get what you are saying here. I think you are right about it being more of the rubberized texture than anything. I guess to me its like holding a skinny child's bat vs. a full size bat with rubber wrap. In my hand, it just feels more solid (but again...probably the rubber).

aippi
06-23-2012, 12:14 PM
The houge is still a conventional stock so no different then any other in this matter. The reason these stocks can be remove from you is because it takes a simple break hold that we all learned first in about any defensive training.

Your grip on the stock is no stronger then the weakest point and that is the thumb on top of the stock. If the persons steps inside of you, places their left hand on top of the weapon, grabs the barrel with right, here is what happens. Their left hand is a pivot point, the right is pushing on a lever and all the force goes into your thumb and your thumb breaks as it can not hold. Same move as a marshal arts break hold that goes against the assailants thumb. Bad part for you is the rear stock is now flying up toward your head and most every time will strike you there.

With stocks like the Speedfeed IV and others with a pistol grip also, the above technique does not work. There is a technique like Big Dog says but it is more complicated, takes more practice, takes more force on the assailants part and is easier to show then to explain.

This mess is like .0000000001% of what can happen. Do you dwell on this mess every time you pick up your weapon? No, but you have to be aware and understand that anyone, "ANYONE" can have their weapon taken from them and used against them. so the OP is very correct in thinking about this.

BigDogatPlay
06-23-2012, 1:17 PM
The houge is still a conventional stock so no different then any other in this matter. The reason these stocks can be remove from you is because it takes a simple break hold that we all learned first in about any defensive training.

Exactly. The hinge that is the thumb is the weak link.

As aippi points out the techniques on pistol gripped guns are more elaborate. In takeaways it is always best to catch the opponent unaware and unready. A well prepared opponent who is on his guard will be considerably more difficult and you can just as easily wind up dead. That said, the only guys in LE I know who are truly super proficient are the defensive tactics instructors because they are constantly practicing. Skill level will vary non-instructors.

When you carry a gun as part of your on the job equipment you have to prepare yourself for takeaways, both against you and against an opponent. As aippi says you cannot dwell on it, but you will have the best chance to survive such an encounter by preparing yourself to the point where your action is swift and automatic.

adrenaline
06-24-2012, 12:10 AM
There is a technique like Big Dog says but it is more complicated, takes more practice, takes more force on the assailants part and is easier to show then to explain.Yup....I get it. Do you guys know what's the best way to see...get this kind of training in the civilian world?

I'm seriously interested. :) I'd even volunteer as the dummy bad guy to get beat up on at any LE training. ;)

Theodore Edward
06-24-2012, 12:15 AM
The idea is to shoot the SOB BEFORE he grabs your weapon.