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SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm suffering from information overload here. I want a stripped down effective, rugged rifle, effective at real world combat range, 100-150 yards. I'm leaning heavily towards the AK at this point and arsenal looks good but the "bullet button" is terrible. Is there an AR that fits the bill? I saw the katana on suns of guns and it describes to the tee what I expect from a rifle but 1600? Really? Also, am i counting out .308 too soon here? Is there anything besides FAL that is worth considering? Lastly, I would like to consider ammo consolidation so is there any reason to consider a Kriss or the new lone wolf .45 AR? I just don't have the facilities to try all of these before I buy (not a lot of fellow gun owners in my circle) and the more I research the worse I feel. Any help would be extremely helpful.

Mongoblack23
06-21-2012, 10:27 PM
sounds like you should just build a K.I.S.S. AR. should be able to for around 800 if not less...

stix213
06-21-2012, 10:33 PM
A lot of people suggest picking the cartridge, or at least narrowing it down, and then choosing the firearm to fit that cartridge choice. Start by deciding what you're actually going to be doing with the firearm. For example, if you're going to go backpacking with it you'll want to minimize weight both of the firearm and the ammo. If you won't be on foot then weight isn't going to be a very big issue.

If you don't like bullet buttons, go featureless and you won't need one. You just lose some ergos. AK's are a good choice for featureless, because they usually just have the one pistol grip feature to get rid of. You can still do that with an Arsenal SGL-21 or 31, but skip the 23 or 33 if you go featureless.

Here's an example from my safe, top one is a Saiga conversion I did myself. Bottom is an Arsenal SGL-21. Both are featureless so don't have bullet buttons.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2148/img1065cr.jpg

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 10:36 PM
As opposed to asking for outright recommendations on AR build, is there any company I should outright avoid for parts? I see a lot going around about spikes tactical and Del-Ton parts.

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 10:40 PM
A lot of people suggest picking the cartridge, or at least narrowing it down, and then choosing the firearm to fit that cartridge choice. Start by deciding what you're actually going to be doing with the firearm. For example, if you're going to go backpacking with it you'll want to minimize weight both of the firearm and the ammo. If you won't be on foot then weight isn't going to be a very big issue.

If you don't like bullet buttons, go featureless and you won't need one. You just lose some ergos. AK's are a good choice for featureless, because they usually just have the one pistol grip feature to get rid of. You can still do that with an Arsenal SGL-21 or 31, but skip the 23 or 33 if you go featureless.

Here's an example from my safe, top one is a Saiga conversion I did myself. Bottom is an Arsenal SGL-21. Both are featureless so don't have bullet buttons.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2148/img1065cr.jpg
If you had it to do over would you do the conversion yourself or buy the arsenal? Also, from Arsenal, do I just specify I want a featureless were I to order it?

loosewreck
06-21-2012, 10:40 PM
Sounds like you might want to go with a featureless rifle. However, judging from your post it looks like you might wanna hang out here for a while and do some research.

Easiest and least expensive route would be to just get a Saiga, you can decide later if you want to convert it over to a AK. There'll be lots of good folks here to guide you through that if you're interested.

Edit: Wow you guys type fast!!!

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 10:45 PM
Sounds like you might want to go with a featureless rifle. However, judging from your post it looks like you might wanna hang out here for a while and do some research.

Easiest and least expensive route would be to just get a Saiga, you can decide later if you want to convert it over to a AK. There'll be lots of good folks here to guide you through that if you're interested.

Edit: Wow you guys type fast!!!
this is great advice thank you. I've been lurking quietly from the shadows for some time and just didn't want to ask about a question that i'm sure is beaten to death on here frequently. Why do i see some Saiga's for 200 or 250 as opposed to 450? Is that something to be wary of?

stix213
06-21-2012, 10:49 PM
If you had it to do over would you do the conversion yourself or buy the arsenal? Also, from Arsenal, do I just specify I want a featureless were I to order it?

No, Arsenal doesn't like to sell the SGL-21 or 31 in CA, they want to sell the 23/33 with their proprietary lock you can't remove easily. You'll have to find a store that has them local or some other place online that will ship it. The 21/31 will likely come with an easily removable bullet button, you then change the grip to a non-pistol grip (I used a grip wrap) and then remove the mag lock.

Out of all the guns I own, that Saiga conversion on the top is my favorite. But its the only conversion I've done so took me a while to do. Many people say it takes an hour to do a conversion, but mine took like 7 lol. I suck ;) I guarantee if you put a good amount of work into it, you'll appreciate your gun a lot more. That goes for building your own AR too. You don't have to copy me or anything, I was just trying to give you ideas and help you in what to think about when making your decision.

loosewreck
06-21-2012, 10:51 PM
I'm not a AK guy, but I don't think there are any Saiga's around California for $2-250.

Around $400 is pretty much the going rate these days, and it'll probably go up even more due to the coming election.

ir0nclash86
06-21-2012, 10:54 PM
this is great advice thank you. I've been lurking quietly from the shadows for some time and just didn't want to ask about a question that i'm sure is beaten to death on here frequently. Why do i see some Saiga's for 200 or 250 as opposed to 450? Is that something to be wary of?

Where are you finding saigas for 200-250???? If you can get a saiga for that price i say jump on it and buy two cause theres no way youll just have one and only one rifle.

stix213
06-21-2012, 10:57 PM
As opposed to asking for outright recommendations on AR build, is there any company I should outright avoid for parts? I see a lot going around about spikes tactical and Del-Ton parts.

DPMS is considered the low end generally with questionable quality. I haven't used them though so don't know personally. RRA makes some quality parts that are not outrageously priced you could consider.

Where are you finding saigas for 200-250???? If you can get a saiga for that price i say jump on it and buy two cause theres no way youll just have one and only one rifle.

+1!!!!! $200 Saiga? Talk about win

Cheese & Bacon
06-21-2012, 10:57 PM
Mini 14

Dont_Shoot_im_Chinese
06-21-2012, 11:02 PM
If you know where to buy saigas that cheap, let us know =]

-hanko
06-21-2012, 11:03 PM
Also, am i counting out .308 too soon here? Is there anything besides FAL that is worth considering?
Slow down, relax, and as stix213 posted, select caliber first. That makes it simple to select the weapon.

Why the "besides FAL" thing?

-hanko

Dont_Shoot_im_Chinese
06-21-2012, 11:06 PM
Out of all my rifles I own, if keep my AK and sell the rest if I was forced to choose only one. The AK is not the loudest, nicest, most expensive, lightest, most accurate, most powerful of of the bunch of its still my favorite

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 11:08 PM
No, Arsenal doesn't like to sell the SGL-21 or 31 in CA, they want to sell the 23/33 with their proprietary lock you can't remove easily. You'll have to find a store that has them local or some other place online that will ship it. The 21/31 will likely come with an easily removable bullet button, you then change the grip to a non-pistol grip (I used a grip wrap) and then remove the mag lock.

Out of all the guns I own, that Saiga conversion on the top is my favorite. But its the only conversion I've done so took me a while to do. Many people say it takes an hour to do a conversion, but mine took like 7 lol. I suck ;) I guarantee if you put a good amount of work into it, you'll appreciate your gun a lot more. That goes for building your own AR too. You don't have to copy me or anything, I was just trying to give you ideas and help you in what to think about when making your decision.
Thank you again I appreciate it. There's a local shop that has an 21 for under 800. I'm going to jump it if it's still available. If not i'll try a build. Would it be ok to PM you with questions?

stix213
06-21-2012, 11:10 PM
Thank you again I appreciate it. There's a local shop that has an 21 for under 800. I'm going to jump it if it's still available. If not i'll try a build. Would it be ok to PM you with questions?

Go right ahead, and my SGL-21 cost me more than that, so sounds good to me. Before you buy it just take a look at the bullet button they used and make sure it can be taken off without much trouble, if you're going featureless.

loosewreck
06-21-2012, 11:10 PM
Slow down, relax, and as stix213 posted, select caliber first. That makes it simple to select the weapon.

Exactly, also consider that if you get a Saiga or Ak in 7.62x39 or 5.45 that you may not be able to shoot the majority of the ammo at your local ranges.

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 11:12 PM
Slow down, relax, and as stix213 posted, select caliber first. That makes it simple to select the weapon.

Why the "besides FAL" thing?

-hanko
All of my searching has pointed to the FAL being the best semi auto .308.. I keep seeing that the socom II and 16 are too heavy, especially since im interested in a bug out rifle, and im not interested in an M1a style rifle. I'm sorry if my post came off desperate but the fine folks here have grounded me.

Maddog5150
06-21-2012, 11:15 PM
No offense OP but its seems like you're all over the place.
7.62x39
308
45ACP.

Well I'm confused because of the 45acp yet no mention of a 5.56. You do realize that the 230 grain slug traveling at +p pressures is only going 950 FPS? The 5.56 is a rifle round and is devistating to soft tissues way further than you want to hit. 45ACP is going to have to be rainbowed out there some.
Average velocities according to ammoguide.com for the 5.56 is 3,115 fps to the 45acp 938 fps.
"But maddog, someone on the internet said that they knew a guy who's cousins best friends cousins squadmate in Iraq said if it doesnt have a four, it cant kill! And that the 5.56 has no power. The 45 is physically BIGGER!"
Ahhh my friend, dispite what all our girlfriends say behind our backs, size doesnt always matter. Mass times speed has a lot to do with it and that makes the energy of the 5.56 a teeny weinie 1,169 to the big burly 368 of the 45acp :p
Now remember this is out of the muzzle. How much faster think that overweight 45 is going to slow to reaching the 100 yard mark than the 5.56? Even with a 16 inch barrel, its not going to help a handgun round THAT much.

Not getting into a 5.56 vs anything just showing you some simple ballistics that may make you rethink one of your choices :D

Now you want a battle rifle? Why go with a pistol round? The 30 carbine for example was deployed in WW2 and Korea and far and wide by experts has been called "anemic" and very weak for a battle field. Maby experts and vets have all said, "A pistol cartrige has no place in a rifle on the battle field." Thompsons and grease guns were not very effective against mausers at longer distances.

Comparing the 7.62X39 to the 45ACP we are talking 2,449 fps to 938 and in energy 1,495 to 368.

Ditch the handgun cartidge and get a saiga if you can find one for that cheap and have fun. Convert it at your lesure :D

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 11:17 PM
Go right ahead, and my SGL-21 cost me more than that, so sounds good to me. Before you buy it just take a look at the bullet button they used and make sure it can be taken off without much trouble, if you're going featureless.
What exactly should I be looking for?

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 11:21 PM
No offense OP but its seems like you're all over the place.
7.62x39
308
45ACP.

Well I'm confused because of the 45acp yet no mention of a 5.56. You do realize that the 230 grain slug traveling at +p pressures is only going 950 FPS? The 5.56 is a rifle round and is devistating to soft tissues way further than you want to hit. 45ACP is going to have to be rainbowed out there some.
Average velocities according to ammoguide.com for the 5.56 is 3,115 fps to the 45acp 938 fps.
"But maddog, someone on the internet said that they knew a guy who's cousins best friends cousins squadmate in Iraq said if it doesnt have a four, it cant kill! And that the 5.56 has no power. The 45 is physically BIGGER!"
Ahhh my friend, dispite what all our girlfriends say behind our backs, size doesnt always matter. Mass times speed has a lot to do with it and that makes the energy of the 5.56 a teeny weinie 1,169 to the big burly 368 of the 45acp :p
Now remember this is out of the muzzle. How much faster think that overweight 45 is going to slow to reaching the 100 yard mark than the 5.56? Even with a 16 inch barrel, its not going to help a handgun round THAT much.

Not getting into a 5.56 vs anything just showing you some simple ballistics that may make you rethink one of your choices :D

Now you want a battle rifle? Why go with a pistol round? The 30 carbine for example was deployed in WW2 and Korea and far and wide by experts has been called "anemic" and very weak for a battle field. Maby experts and vets have all said, "A pistol cartrige has no place in a rifle on the battle field." Thompsons and grease guns were not very effective against mausers at longer distances.

Comparing the 7.62X39 to the 45ACP we are talking 2,449 fps to 938 and in energy 1,495 to 368.

Ditch the handgun cartidge and get a saiga if you can find one for that cheap and have fun. Convert it at your lesure :D
I did make a reference to 5.56 in my post. Also, I know it's all over the place but like I said 100-150 yards. 45 is just fine at that range and .308 is excessive it was a passive thought and I realize it didn't have a place in the argument. I was just conveying my frustration a bit. Also, I promise I don't fall into the "Big bullet kill better" category. I work as an EMT and i've seen what just about every round does to human tissue. The only reason .45 was even in there is because I already own one.

stix213
06-21-2012, 11:32 PM
What exactly should I be looking for?

Here's the lock that came on my SGL-21. I think it is the Solar Tactical generation 2. It is easily removed with an allen wrench.

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9549/img1070gz.jpg

Exactly, also consider that if you get a Saiga or Ak in 7.62x39 or 5.45 that you may not be able to shoot the majority of the ammo at your local ranges.

That's an excellent point to consider. It's a big issue if you live down in the south end of the state. Not a big problem up in the north end.

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 11:35 PM
Rad, I think the one I found was riveted :mad: I'll double check though. Thank you again.

stix213
06-21-2012, 11:37 PM
"But maddog, someone on the internet said that they knew a guy who's cousins best friends cousins squadmate in Iraq said if it doesnt have a four, it cant kill! And that the 5.56 has no power. The 45 is physically BIGGER!"
Ahhh my friend, dispite what all our girlfriends say behind our backs, size doesnt always matter. Mass times speed has a lot to do with it and that makes the energy of the 5.56 a teeny weinie 1,169 to the big burly 368 of the 45acp :p


Oh man I LOL'd pretty good. :D

trigger hippie
06-21-2012, 11:39 PM
I think discussion seems to be converging on an SGL for the original poster. Before you go and buy, have you considered a used M1 or M1A in .308 (or even .30-06?)

Before 3gun competition and AR modification caught my fancy, I was pretty seriously learning towards a non-AR, 10-round .308 rifle like the M1. It seems an immensely practical choice under the paradigm of "carry only the largest heaviest caliber you can manage". Certainly the noise alone of .308 at close range seems to me at least an order of magnitude louder than .556. It'll also allow you to extend your range out once you upgrade to glass down the line (and you'll want to, believe me).

In addition... a good used or new basic AR-10 *can* be had for just under $1k, if you're willing to put with a bullet button. Certainly the advantage of having 10 rounds of .308 makes the bullet button a little easier to feel good about than having just 10 rounds of .556.

edit: A CMP-certified used M1 can an excellent choice I've heard...

SweetLoutheDuke
06-21-2012, 11:51 PM
I have a 1903 right now and I really wanted a 30-06 battle rifle. I was under the impression that 30-06 was still cheaper than .308 and found out I was wrong. At this point the added weight and expense of .308 doesn't seem worth it right now.

trigger hippie
06-21-2012, 11:56 PM
I have a 1903 right now and I really wanted a 30-06 battle rifle. I was under the impression that 30-06 was still cheaper than .308 and found out I was wrong. At this point the added weight and expense of .308 doesn't seem worth it right now.

Yeah, expense is a good rationale.

I'll tell you what, though... I ended up getting into handloading. You can get set up yourself for less than $300 if you do it right (there's a thread on Calguns actually that helped me out). Ammo gets very cheap no matter what caliber (I suppose handloading 50 BMG might challenge me I guess). And the returns you can get from handloading .308 vs .556 can be pretty significant. The frontier in .556 is Mk 262 ammo, out to 800 yards or so; that area is old hat for the .308 and .300 Win Mag guys. For handloading purposes, they are all so similar in price (about $0.10 apart per round I think?) as to be negligible given a limited shooting habit (less than 1k rounds a month).

SweetLoutheDuke
06-22-2012, 12:02 AM
Yeah, expense is a good rationale.

I'll tell you what, though... I ended up getting into handloading. You can get set up yourself for less than $300 if you do it right (there's a thread on Calguns actually that helped me out). Ammo gets very cheap no matter what caliber (I suppose handloading 50 BMG might challenge me I guess). And the returns you can get from handloading .308 vs .556 can be pretty significant. The frontier in .556 is Mk 262 ammo, out to 800 yards or so; that area is old hat for the .308 and .300 Win Mag guys. For handloading purposes, they are all so similar in price (about $0.10 apart per round I think?) as to be negligible given a limited shooting habit (less than 1k rounds a month).
Thank you. I'm not ignorant to handloading but it just seemed so intimidating. I'm still crawling up from the depths of point, shoot, field strip, giggle. My confidence grows a little everyday though and I think as a starving student I NEED to start loading my own rounds.

trigger hippie
06-22-2012, 12:21 AM
Thank you. I'm not ignorant to handloading but it just seemed so intimidating. I'm still crawling up from the depths of point, shoot, field strip, giggle. My confidence grows a little everyday though and I think as a starving student I NEED to start loading my own rounds.

Y'know, if you're, say, a med or engi student, this stuff should be second nature to you. If you're liberal arts, well, not only will you need to save the money ( :) ) but you'll also get good practice in what biologists call "clean technique" - being ritualistically, perfectionistically safe and practicing what's basically hypothesis-testing science, except with explosions going off near your face which you engineered.

I suspect you could afford a $20 reloading manual? Choose a good general one like Lyman or Lee and it'll break the process down step by step. Old-timers are also super-helpful, I'm finding, if they know you're getting into reloading. Budget $300 for a basic reloading setup... borrow your range's local chronometer... spend $700 on a good used rifle with irons - and you'd be ahead of the high-speed mall-ninja boys "running" their ARs (wherever they're running towards).

edit: y'know, I think the old-timers help out because they know that reloading is an art that shouldn't die out, not as long as guns are written into our constitution to help us defend ourselves against our government.

SweetLoutheDuke
06-22-2012, 12:35 AM
Y'know, if you're, say, a med or engi student, this stuff should be second nature to you. If you're liberal arts, well, not only will you need to save the money ( :) ) but you'll also get good practice in what biologists call "clean technique" - being ritualistically, perfectionistically safe and practicing what's basically hypothesis-testing science, except with explosions going off near your face which you engineered.

I suspect you could afford a $20 reloading manual? Choose a good general one like Lyman or Lee and it'll break the process down step by step. Old-timers are also super-helpful, I'm finding, if they know you're getting into reloading. Budget $300 for a basic reloading setup... borrow your range's local chronometer... spend $700 on a good used rifle with irons - and you'd be ahead of the high-speed mall-ninja boys "running" their ARs (wherever they're running towards).

edit: y'know, I think the old-timers help out because they know that reloading is an art that shouldn't die out, not as long as guns are written into our constitution to help us defend ourselves against our government.
I'm a nursing student/current EMT, so at the very least I can field dress. The old timers have been immensely helpful and I'm finding out that it's my favorite part of this site having them guide me on this trip.

weber_2
06-22-2012, 12:39 AM
M1A Socom II

DannyInSoCal
06-22-2012, 12:43 AM
Featureless 6.8 SPC II AR -

40% more energy within 250 yards compared to 5.56 -

And more than enough DRT to take wild boar and deer.....

trigger hippie
06-22-2012, 12:47 AM
^

Being able to hunt big game is cool. Reloading 6.8SPC is new frontier as it's a rather new cartridge. As an EMT you might find the terminal ballistics of 6.8 versus 5.56 an interesting choice. From the external ballistics viewpoint there's a decent amount to recommend it as well, especially inside common hunting distances.

Here's a decent 6.8 upper: http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/STAG5H.aspx

Slightly more upscale with fluted barrel: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/ARR-262

And if you get bored you could just go 5.56 like the vast majority of ARs. Guns hold pretty good resale value.

sholling
06-22-2012, 1:01 AM
Mini-14 (5.56/.223) or an M1a (308) are in my opinion the perfect one and only rifles for California. Both are exempt from the bullet button and in an emergency either will put food on the table or defend the homestead. The only disadvantage to the M1a (besides price) is that it's only suitable for mil-spec ammo and commercial hunting ammo should never be used in it. The Mini-14 is effective out to 300yds and the M1a 800-1000yds. If you want something cheap then look at a Saga.

Mini-14 Ranch (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/14303/Ruger+KMINI-145P+223+SSSYN+RNCH+5805)
M1a National Match (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_41/products_id/32900/Springfield+M1A+National+Match+Walnut+Stainless+St eel%2C+Calif+**S)
M1a Standard (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_41/products_id/11811/Springfield+M1A+Standard%2C+Synthetic+Black+Stock% 2C+California)
M1a Scout (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/27591/Springfield+M1A+SCOUT+SQUAD+308+WAL+BL)

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/14303.jpg
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/11811.jpg

weber_2
06-22-2012, 1:16 AM
Here's my One ans Only....although I do have many others this is my go to rifle. Just plan an upgrading the sight soon

http://i.imgur.com/M2g3P.jpg

No BB, pre ban mag friendly, hard hitting 308, modular, reliable, low maintenance, accurate enough for any SHTF/ Miami Zombie outbreak.

NOTABIKER
06-22-2012, 7:52 AM
Mosin Nagant. 118 bucks at big 5. very reliable. surplus ammo .25c for 762.54. i have grown to love the beauty of this rifle. i think i will collect them now after buying my first one last week.

paul0660
06-22-2012, 8:02 AM
I only read the OP.

Sks for cheap, AK or a M16 clone if you have the dough.

jsipe007
06-22-2012, 8:41 AM
Whats your price range? Im a big PTR 91 fan myself... 308 round and solid overall rifle. Im located in Reno NV, thought and havent kept up with CA gun law (since theyre changing so damn much) so I dont know about legality issues. Here, a used PTR 91 can be found in the$800 range....

luchador768
06-22-2012, 9:21 AM
.45 acp is gonna drop close to a yard at 100 yards. I'd rule that round out right off the bat.

It's a fool's errand to try and find just one perfect rifle. One quickly turns into a dozen.

cmace22
06-22-2012, 12:49 PM
If I were you Id consider 7.62x39, 5.45x39 and 5.56x45. These three are relitively inexpensive, surplus ammo can be had, effective on personal well beyond the range you specified and many rifles out there use these rounds.

All can be done in either an AR platform or an AK platform. Magazines are a concern when you are looking at a round that wasnt initially designed or adopted in a particular platform.

An AK is a great choice for the 7.62x39 and 545x39. Magazines are plentiful and cheap.

An AR is a great choice for 556x45. Magazines are readily available and can be found for sub 15 a mag.

308 is twice as expensive as the calibers above. Has more recoil, weighs more per round and the rifles cost more in general.

Pistol rounds are good in pistols/sub guns. They will not defeat body armor (most) and in general have less penetration than the military rifle rounds. .45 ammo cost 4x 7.62x39, 545x39 and 3 x 556!

IMO pick a round then a platform known to function reliably in that caliber than is cost effective for you and has readily available parts and magazines.

Sicarius
06-22-2012, 2:10 PM
What is the budget first off? How accurate are you looking for?
I am a huge fan of .308 but for 100-150 yards, a .223/556 or 762.39 will be right at home. A featureless rifle on the cheaper side, A saiga is really hard to beat for the price. I personally would go with 7.62x39 over .223 but you can't go wrong with either. The sights are very lacking on the saiga but nothing that can't be fixed with a decent mount and red dot or scope. Nice thing about the saiga is you can properly convert it to take standard ak hi caps(why I say 7.62x39) granted you swap enough parts to comply with federal 922r regulations.
If you are willing to spend 6-700ish. The ruger mini fits the bill as far as a featureless. Great, solid gun and the recent productions are supposidly way more accurate than the older models. This was the one thing that was lacking in the mini line(I have an older one...). Even so, for 100-150 yards, you can hit a man size target with even the older ones... Great gun as long as you have factory hi caps. Aftermarket ones are junk... at least all the ones I have tried...
For the 1500ish price range, you are in the market for a M1a. I absolutely love them. 308 is hard hitting and my loaded model is very accurate. Price of the rifle and ammo is a huge drawback but to me, it's worth it.
Kevin

Squidward
06-22-2012, 3:08 PM
You said, "I want a stripped down effective, rugged rifle, effective at real world combat range, 100-150 yards. I'm leaning heavily towards the AK at this point and arsenal looks good but the "bullet button" is terrible."

I say, SKS.

smittty
06-22-2012, 10:05 PM
I love it when this topic comes up because I tried it once and realized that owning just one sucks!

If you are thinkong about tactical every gun you buy thats not an AR is just a stepping stone until you get the AR. It had them all saiga/AK/mini14/m1/etc. and none are as satisfying to own and shoot as an AR15.

If budget is tight start with a lower receiver and build it as you get the money. You will have a blast researching and looking for the parts.

Mossy Man
06-22-2012, 10:07 PM
You said, "I want a stripped down effective, rugged rifle, effective at real world combat range, 100-150 yards. I'm leaning heavily towards the AK at this point and arsenal looks good but the "bullet button" is terrible."

I say, SKS.

stripper clips are a whole lot faster than BBd guns

i'd probably recommend a mini-14 but they are a little more expensive and reliable magazines aren't cheap either.

pyromensch
06-22-2012, 10:15 PM
No offense OP but its seems like you're all over the place.
7.62x39
308
45ACP.

Well I'm confused because of the 45acp yet no mention of a 5.56. You do realize that the 230 grain slug traveling at +p pressures is only going 950 FPS? The 5.56 is a rifle round and is devistating to soft tissues way further than you want to hit. 45ACP is going to have to be rainbowed out there some.
Average velocities according to ammoguide.com for the 5.56 is 3,115 fps to the 45acp 938 fps.
"But maddog, someone on the internet said that they knew a guy who's cousins best friends cousins squadmate in Iraq said if it doesnt have a four, it cant kill! And that the 5.56 has no power. The 45 is physically BIGGER!"
Ahhh my friend, dispite what all our girlfriends say behind our backs, size doesnt always matter. Mass times speed has a lot to do with it and that makes the energy of the 5.56 a teeny weinie 1,169 to the big burly 368 of the 45acp :p
Now remember this is out of the muzzle. How much faster think that overweight 45 is going to slow to reaching the 100 yard mark than the 5.56? Even with a 16 inch barrel, its not going to help a handgun round THAT much.

Not getting into a 5.56 vs anything just showing you some simple ballistics that may make you rethink one of your choices :D

Now you want a battle rifle? Why go with a pistol round? The 30 carbine for example was deployed in WW2 and Korea and far and wide by experts has been called "anemic" and very weak for a battle field. Maby experts and vets have all said, "A pistol cartrige has no place in a rifle on the battle field." Thompsons and grease guns were not very effective against mausers at longer distances.

Comparing the 7.62X39 to the 45ACP we are talking 2,449 fps to 938 and in energy 1,495 to 368.

Ditch the handgun cartidge and get a saiga if you can find one for that cheap and have fun. Convert it at your lesure :D

not to mention, the range specified. 100-150 yds. 45acp, you will be aiming at the moon, :) to get a hit

Richard Erichsen
06-22-2012, 11:30 PM
I'm suffering from information overload here. I want a stripped down effective, rugged rifle, effective at real world combat range, 100-150 yards. I'm leaning heavily towards the AK at this point and arsenal looks good but the "bullet button" is terrible. Is there an AR that fits the bill? I saw the katana on suns of guns and it describes to the tee what I expect from a rifle but 1600? Really? Also, am i counting out .308 too soon here? Is there anything besides FAL that is worth considering? Lastly, I would like to consider ammo consolidation so is there any reason to consider a Kriss or the new lone wolf .45 AR? I just don't have the facilities to try all of these before I buy (not a lot of fellow gun owners in my circle) and the more I research the worse I feel. Any help would be extremely helpful.

One and only one rifle? I'd make mine a .22 LR semi-auto like the Ruger 10/22 or the Marlin 795 or 60. These rifles are "featureless" and loads of fun, cheap to shoot and meet all of your criterion above, except perhaps for sexyness or tacticoolification (not that you couldn't buy one of those ugly stocks and make it so).

R

ElvenSoul
06-22-2012, 11:34 PM
Great overlooked survival setup is Keltec 2000 in 9mm that takes Glock Mags and have a Glock 17 or 19 on your hip for backup.

Super Spy
06-22-2012, 11:53 PM
Great overlooked survival setup is Keltec 2000 in 9mm that takes Glock Mags and have a Glock 17 or 19 on your hip for backup.

Novel suggestion...

I'd probably go with a Saiga is you want a semi, I have the 7.62 Saiga and agree with the feedback give, it's a good gun, shoots anything, needs sights. I wouldn't mind another in 308 for pig eradication.

I'll throw out the suggestion of not a semi, a bolt gun like the Ruger Gunsite is plenty accurate, comes with 10 round mags and a threaded barrel, throw on low power optic and you can take down anything in North America, it's a 308.

I also love lever guns, they come in a variety of calibers, they shoot fast, and are pretty reliable. You can get a cheap Rossi in .454 Casull that also shoots 45LC. Will kill whatever you need to at the ranges you mentioned. the 20" model holds 10 rounds of 45LC. If you're not familiar with 45 Long Colt it's about equivalent to .44 Magnum, though the hottest loads for it are stronger than the .44, the 454 Casull is a lot stronger. Any of these can be had in a wheelgun using the same ammo.

The person behind the trigger is more important than the gun. Buy something you like and shoot it a lot.

whoawhoawhoa
06-23-2012, 12:01 AM
i would look at other ak's other than the arsenal SGL
i would absolutely love to get an arsenal SLR, but unfortunately they are banned in california and arsenal has not changed the markings/name of the series (plus the folding stock is probably an issue with overall length, maybe that is why they haven't done anything with it)

the SGL is basically just a converted saiga. there are other saiga conversions for cheaper that i see no real difference in.
for example: http://www.riflegear.com/p-1645-saiga-akm-style-converted-rifle-762x39.aspx

based on the same saiga as the SGL, has a g2 trigger which people seem to like more than the arsenal, and seems basically the same otherwise. if you put the g2 on the SGL, you add about $30, and would have saved $100 by just going with the legionusa conversion. if authenticity is your thing, it seems that the legionusa might even be better since legionusa supposedly has ties to legion of the izhmash factory (like arsenal has ties to arsenal of bulgaria? not sure if this is a perfect analogy).

jeffrice6
06-23-2012, 12:11 AM
Mini 14

Bobby Ricigliano
06-23-2012, 12:15 AM
I have a Mini-14, AR's, and AK's (All featureless)

However my current infatuation is the SKS rifle. People are often surprised by how handy they are and easy to shoot accurately. The built in bayonet just adds to its potential prowess as a defensive weapon. And they can be reloaded quite rapidly with stripper clips too.

That's just my .02

tacksman
06-23-2012, 6:27 AM
+1...
Mini 14