PDA

View Full Version : .308 AR build - side charging? Which brand?


Lsx2
06-20-2012, 9:18 PM
I'm looking at doing a precision .308 AR build to shoot beside my precision bolt rifle, I shoot 700 & 1000y.

Looked at the Mega Machine matched billet sets, but I'm kinda thinking a side charging setup would be nice - looking for personal experiences pro/con?

Fulton Armory has a side charging upper and bolt carrier, anybody else?

Initial thought was to use a JP Enterprises 22" barrel kit, any other brand I should look at that would offer the same performance at a lower price?

L4D
06-20-2012, 9:21 PM
American Spirit Arms

Hoop
06-20-2012, 9:51 PM
You could mill out the side of whatever upper you want and then thread a handle onto a BCG.

If I went JP I'd get this barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/375829/jp-enterprises-barrel-and-bolt-lr-308-308-winchester-lightweight-contour-1-in-10-twist-18-stainless-steel-with-low-profile-adjustable-gas-block-gas-tube-jp-small-compensator

I know it's 18" and not super heavy but if you already have a precision bolt rifle why have a heavy 'precision' 308 AR? Make a lighter, smaller, accurate carbine.

Lsx2
06-20-2012, 10:04 PM
You could mill out the side of whatever upper you want and then thread a handle onto a BCG.

If I went JP I'd get this barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/375829/jp-enterprises-barrel-and-bolt-lr-308-308-winchester-lightweight-contour-1-in-10-twist-18-stainless-steel-with-low-profile-adjustable-gas-block-gas-tube-jp-small-compensator

I know it's 18" and not super heavy but if you already have a precision bolt rifle why have a heavy 'precision' 308 AR? Make a lighter, smaller, accurate carbine.

Well, I have four AR-15 rifles in mixed CQB and long range configuration - I was looking to do a heavier precision long range .308 AR because I already have plenty of light ones, I had even considered keeping the barrel at 22" for velocity reasons and minimally a SPR profile.

Josh3239
06-20-2012, 10:12 PM
American Spirit Arms

:iagree:

Thread over.

1 SIG fan
06-21-2012, 3:24 AM
Lwrci repr... Just buy it (or the upper) and be done. :)
Great rifles. Love mine

IPSICK
06-21-2012, 6:45 AM
American Spirit Arms

ASA has a proprietary side-charging upper, correct (mates only to their lowers)?

I think JP makes one that is not proprietary and mates to DPMS lowers.

Calplinker
06-21-2012, 9:12 AM
I have the Fulton (Titan Lite) and really like it, even as a lefty. It is also very, very accurate.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc417/IEShooter/Custom%20Built%20308%20AR/20120211_0867.jpg

Lsx2
06-24-2012, 11:36 AM
I have the Fulton (Titan Lite) and really like it, even as a lefty. It is also very, very accurate.




What barrel length do you have and what is your accuracy like at 800+ ?

BigBamBoo
06-24-2012, 11:48 AM
If you want to shoot 800+ I would look at the 6CM, 6.5CM, or 260. Yes the .308 will drive out past 800, but parking becomes a challenge.
The higher BC of those cartrages listed above makes consistently hitting targets to 1000-1200 yards much easier.

As for a side charger I would prefer a non-reciprocating setup like the ASA or JP. But that's just me and it is a personal choice.

Good luck on your build.

theicecreamdan
06-24-2012, 11:50 AM
I have a Fulton side charger, with the 18" barrel. I'm really happy with it. Still waiting for an appropriate optic before I have anything to say about accuracy.

Lsx2
06-24-2012, 12:31 PM
If you want to shoot 800+ I would look at the 6CM, 6.5CM, or 260. Yes the .308 will drive out past 800, but parking becomes a challenge.
The higher BC of those cartrages listed above makes consistently hitting targets to 1000-1200 yards much easier.

As for a side charger I would prefer a non-reciprocating setup like the ASA or JP. But that's just me and it is a personal choice.

Good luck on your build.


I can totally appreciate what you're saying, but my thought had been that I could load for precision with my 175g .308s, but still use surplus 7.62 at shorter ranges for high volume fun which would be a little more costly and time consuming if I was having to reload a boutique cartridge.

BigBamBoo
06-24-2012, 1:18 PM
Totally understood.
Just a FYI....Hornady makes factory match 6.5CM ammo for a fairly good price. And the 6.5CM was designed to be a gas gun cartridge. You can get it for under $25.00 a box if you shop around, but here is what Midway carries: http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&sortby=1&itemsperpage=20&newcategorydimensionid=9985

Match .308 is generally a few dollars more. And again...the ballistics of the Creedmoor is waaayyyyy superior to the .308.

As an example. At 1000 yards the 6.5mm 140gr Amax with a MV of 2700fps...totaly doable from a 22" AR type rifle...take about 32 MOA. and about 7 moa wind drift in a 10 mph wind.

A 175gr SMK at 2600...about what you will get from a gas gun most likely...takes around 40 MOA to get to 1000 yards and has about 10 moa wind drift in a 10 mph wind.

Not trying to talk you out of or into anything...just pointing out that there are much better choices if you really will be shooting that far. I learned really early on that the .308 leaves a LOT to be desired when shooting out past 500 yards....if precision is what you have in mind.
I have taken many first time long range shooters out who have never shot at 1000 yards and with a "slippery" cartridge had them making first round hits.
Where as with the .308 you kinda need to know what your doing.

And again...there are lots of 6.5CM gas gun barrels and parts out there. And with the factory ammo being so reasonable, I really think it is a better way to go.

Take care,Stan

PS...here is s buddy of mine shooting my old 6XC at 1000 yards for the very first time. He tried with his .308 and got bummed out. Soon after he bought a 6BR and now shoots a 6.5X47:

_KV8JhG0BOY

Hoop
06-24-2012, 1:19 PM
260 isn't a boutique cartridge.

edit: you can get a 308 to perform like that but you have to push it hard. Maybe 2750fps+ for a 175 and 2950+ for a 155 palma and the costs are the same.

I'd bet the farm that you could set up a 260 rem AR w/20" Hbar type barrel and it would shoot just as well at long range as a 24-26" 308.

billetmann
06-24-2012, 3:23 PM
any idea what the terminal velocity or energy comparison is at 1000 yrds?

BigBamBoo
06-24-2012, 3:49 PM
Compared to what? I will assume 6.5mm vs .308. Here it it

140gr. 6.5 Amax leaving with a 2700 fps MV: 1345 fps and 561 ft. lbs. of energy @ 1000 yards

175gr .308 leaving with 2600 MV: 1186 fps and 547 ft. lbs of energy @ 1000 yards

Note I am using 2600 fps for the .308 and 2700 for the 6.5 as those seem to be about avg. for gas guns in those calibers. With a bolt rifle you would be able to get a bit more velocity.

As you can see....both would leave a mark if it hit you. A 9mm Para/Luger using a 125gr bullet has a muzzle velocity of around 1100 fps and 325 ft. lbs. of energy....at the muzzle. Something to think about.

The Virus
06-24-2012, 3:54 PM
JP
NOW the thread is over

NSR500
06-24-2012, 4:20 PM
JP non-reciprocating upper.

/Thread

FMJBT
06-24-2012, 4:31 PM
Straying from the side charging upper portion of the discussion for a bit, I recently have had some surprising results shooting a 16" 308 at 1000 yards. The barrel is a Rainier Arms "Select", one of the cheaper barrels they sell at around $260.00. Shooting Nosler 190 HPBT's over 40.5 grains of Ramshot TAC it's getting pretty consistent hits at 1000 yards on an 11"X18" steel plate. It's definitely not an ideal long range rifle, but it's more capable than it's compact size would suggest. I took a friend of mine to the range this morning and had him banging steel at 1000 within the first 10 shots. Prior to that, the furthest he'd shot a rifle was the 25 yard qualification shoot for the Navy.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5336/7391553696_72a0a17d4d_c.jpg

The smaller caliber rounds like the 260 and 6.5 Creedmore are definitely going to be more consistently accurate at 1000 than any possible 308 loading. You just can't beat the high velocity plus excellent BC of those slimmer bullets. I've had the best consistency at long range with the 308 by using the heavier 190 grain bullets. 175's work well also, but the higher BC of the 190's seems to help them buck the wind a bit better even with the lower velocity associated with their weight.

For barrels, I really like the Rainier Arms barrel on my cuurent setup, although I would build it with a better muzzle brake and an adjustable gas block if I were going to do it over. It's really over-gassed as it is, and the recoil is pretty stout when compared with my other 308 AR's. The Carlson Comp is pretty effective at keeping the muzzle down, but doesn't seem to do much as far as recoil mitigation. I'd suggest taking a look at the Fulton Armory 18.5" stainless Titan barrel as well. It's a rifle length gas system, so the recoil impulse should be pretty smooth. It's also made by Krieger, so it's accuracy potential should be capable of some decent accuracy.

Lsx2
06-24-2012, 4:45 PM
Totally understood.
Just a FYI....Hornady makes factory match 6.5CM ammo for a fairly good price. And the 6.5CM was designed to be a gas gun cartridge. You can get it for under $25.00 a box if you shop around, but here is what Midway carries: http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&sortby=1&itemsperpage=20&newcategorydimensionid=9985

Match .308 is generally a few dollars more. And again...the ballistics of the Creedmoor is waaayyyyy superior to the .308.

As an example. At 1000 yards the 6.5mm 140gr Amax with a MV of 2700fps...totaly doable from a 22" AR type rifle...take about 32 MOA. and about 7 moa wind drift in a 10 mph wind.

A 175gr SMK at 2600...about what you will get from a gas gun most likely...takes around 40 MOA to get to 1000 yards and has about 10 moa wind drift in a 10 mph wind.

Not trying to talk you out of or into anything...just pointing out that there are much better choices if you really will be shooting that far. I learned really early on that the .308 leaves a LOT to be desired when shooting out past 500 yards....if precision is what you have in mind.
I have taken many first time long range shooters out who have never shot at 1000 yards and with a "slippery" cartridge had them making first round hits.
Where as with the .308 you kinda need to know what your doing.

And again...there are lots of 6.5CM gas gun barrels and parts out there. And with the factory ammo being so reasonable, I really think it is a better way to go.

Take care,Stan

PS...here is s buddy of mine shooting my old 6XC at 1000 yards for the very first time. He tried with his .308 and got bummed out. Soon after he bought a 6BR and now shoots a 6.5X47:

_KV8JhG0BOY


Thanks for the good info. :cool2:

Hoop
06-24-2012, 4:54 PM
What type of handguard is that FMJBT?

Lsx2
06-24-2012, 6:50 PM
I'm liking this 6.5CM suggestion the more I think about it BigBamBoo...do you have any experience converting .308 brass down to 6.5?

Not looking to break the bank on this deal, I'm seeing this $600 barrel from fulton, any other more reasonable options?

http://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelkriegertitan22nm65creedmoorbullss1x8936gasbl ock.aspx

Rainer has this very affordable .308 barrel, would be nice if they made a 6.5 http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2239

FMJBT
06-24-2012, 7:14 PM
What type of handguard is that FMJBT?

GRG MFG:

http://www.amazon.com/AR-10-LR308-Rifle-Length-FLoat/dp/B006J1ZTO6

Very solid and lightweight, but somewhat challenging to install on gas sytems where the gas block will be covered by the rail.

Hoop
06-24-2012, 7:48 PM
I am not sure that you can neck 308 brass down to 6.5 creed. I do know that 308 will turn into 260 with some effort although 7mm08 win brass is probably the easiest option.

JSESurplus has 20" DPMS HBAR 260remington barrels in stock. If you want a cheap barrel that shoots reasonably well in that caliber it can't be beat.

Otherwise probably get a 300$ fulton barrel in 6.5 creedmor and go that route instead I don't know of any other drop in 260 remington choices.

FMJBT
06-24-2012, 7:57 PM
I'm liking this 6.5CM suggestion the more I think about it BigBamBoo...do you have any experience converting .308 brass down to 6.5?

Not looking to break the bank on this deal, I'm seeing this $600 barrel from fulton, any other more reasonable options?

http://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelkriegertitan22nm65creedmoorbullss1x8936gasbl ock.aspx

Rainer has this very affordable .308 barrel, would be nice if they made a 6.5 http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2239

.260 Remington might be worth considering. Similar ballistics to the 6.5 Creedmore and can be formed from 308 brass as well (Might need to size with a 7mm08 die as an intermediate step before the .260???). JSE Surplus has some DPMS barrels in stock for a really good price:

http://www.jsesurplus.com/dpms20260barrel.aspx

I have no personal experience with that particular barrel, but I have several AR's built on DPMS barrels and they are all capable of sub MOA with match ammo.

BigBamBoo
06-24-2012, 8:13 PM
Not sure about making 6.5CM brass from another case. At $60.00 per 100 cases, the CM is pretty "cheap" brass (I usually use Lapua brass) and properly head stamped.

I also have looked at doing a large frame AR in .260, but keep going back to the 6.5CM as I like the shorter case making bullet seating depth a little better IMHO. With the .260 you have to seat pretty deep in the case to fit mag length. Giving up any advantage of the extra case capacity.
Ballistics wise the .260, 6.5CM, and 6.5x47 are all so close it's a wash. My last long range bolt rifle was a 6.5x47 and I really came to like the 6.5's.

JP offers barrel kits in either .260 or 6.5CM. But they are spendy.

Guapoh
06-25-2012, 4:58 AM
LWRC REPR in 20 inch brl. Side charger. Non-reciprocating. Piston driven. Very wicked.

shadowofnight
06-25-2012, 6:40 AM
260 isn't a boutique cartridge.

edit: you can get a 308 to perform like that but you have to push it hard. Maybe 2750fps+ for a 175 and 2950+ for a 155 palma and the costs are the same.

I'd bet the farm that you could set up a 260 rem AR w/20" Hbar type barrel and it would shoot just as well at long range as a 24-26" 308.


I just built a 260 AR, and my buddy did as well with the Fulton side charger...he loves it.

You are not going to push a 308 DI AR to those velocities, like you can a bolt gun...with the fast twist barrels and pushing close to or max loads...the autoloaders are still into the tail end of the pressure curve when extraction begins.

In neither my buddies 260 or mine, can we get even close to published load data max loads before seeing pressure issues with the brass. We are close to a grain over published max with our bolt 260's with zero pressure issues, the autoloaders are HARD on the brass.

Same with our 308 bolt/autoloaders, so if you want to stretch your legs to 800 and beyond with an autoloader...go with the 260. Even with mid to mildly hot loads the 260 easily reached 1K, trying to push an autoloading 308 to 1K can be done for sure....but it's like running a 4 cylinder @ 12k rpms on nitrous to hit 300 horsepower...when a V8 can do 300 yawning @ 5K rpms normally aspirated.

Both of our 308 autoloaders are collecting dust after building the 260 AR's.

Hoop
06-25-2012, 7:29 AM
You can get those speeds out of an autoloader it's just a matter of the right barrel/powder and getting lucky. Then there's overgassed and too-tight chambers.

My 16" can send a 175smk to 2550fps with 2000MR powder (like superformance). I don't doubt that out of a 24" it would be 2700fps+ but then you get back to the why-build-a-semi-with-a-really-long-barrel. To me a semi 223 or 308 should be more like a carbine and not an artillery piece.

shadowofnight
06-25-2012, 9:42 AM
You can get those speeds out of an autoloader it's just a matter of the right barrel/powder and getting lucky. Then there's overgassed and too-tight chambers.

My 16" can send a 175smk to 2550fps with 2000MR powder (like superformance). I don't doubt that out of a 24" it would be 2700fps+ but then you get back to the why-build-a-semi-with-a-really-long-barrel. To me a semi 223 or 308 should be more like a carbine and not an artillery piece.

I felt the same, 260 bolt guns with 28" barrels...went with 20" barrels on the 260 autoloaders and 16" on the 308's.

The 260 uses much slower burning powders than the 308, seemed like 20" was the minimum using 4350/4831sc. The 308 does just fine with the shorter barrels.

G38xOC
07-01-2012, 8:52 PM
You could mill out the side of whatever upper you want and then thread a handle onto a BCG.

If I went JP I'd get this barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/375829/jp-enterprises-barrel-and-bolt-lr-308-308-winchester-lightweight-contour-1-in-10-twist-18-stainless-steel-with-low-profile-adjustable-gas-block-gas-tube-jp-small-compensator

I know it's 18" and not super heavy but if you already have a precision bolt rifle why have a heavy 'precision' 308 AR? Make a lighter, smaller, accurate carbine.

that one uses middle length gas system . I trust JP guys . im sure they know what they're doing , but isnt rifle length gas system is more reliable ?

BigBamBoo
07-01-2012, 9:08 PM
JP uses Adjustable gas block.....so it really does not matter what length the gas system is.

G38xOC
07-01-2012, 10:30 PM
^ so does that mean , it can be adjustable upto rifle length with right gas tube ?

kinda still new at meaning of adjustable gas block .. im thinking since it doesnt have to be pinned , it can be adjustable with right gas tube

Josh3239
07-01-2012, 10:44 PM
No, ASA's side charger fits any lower.

I like ASA's more than JPs, JPs is comically large IMO. Although JP kept the top charging with the side charging so that is pretty cool.

ASA has a proprietary side-charging upper, correct (mates only to their lowers)?

I think JP makes one that is not proprietary and mates to DPMS lowers.

nyc71
07-02-2012, 12:07 AM
I love shooting my Fulton, at the moment I'm undecided which handguard to put on.
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4d81e-493d-2823.jpg

santacruzstefan
07-02-2012, 12:32 AM
I love shooting my Fulton, at the moment I'm undecided which handguard to put on.
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4d81e-493d-2823.jpg

Which lower is that?

Personally, as far as factory-built /308 ARs go, I tend to think the LMT can't be beat. And now that they have .260 and 6.5 CM, you have more options to utilize the quick change barrel system. Its not side charging, but it is a great value compared to the price of many .308 ARs, especially considering the quality. It'll be my next semi auto purchase, thats for sure, and maybe in their new slick side upper... so nice. I like Mega's stuff too, though, if I was gonna build one myself.

G38xOC
07-02-2012, 12:39 AM
^ looks like TM 10

BigBamBoo
07-02-2012, 8:20 AM
No, ASA's side charger fits any lower.

I like ASA's more than JPs, JPs is comically large IMO. Although JP kept the top charging with the side charging so that is pretty cool.


Wrong. The LRP-07 (large frame rifles) do not have the dual charging handles. Only the side charger. The as yet, unreleased, JP PSC-12 will have the dual charging handles and will be DPMS compatable.

Having owned both a ASA side charger as well a JP PSC-11 dual charger....I can tell you the JP side handle system is WAY more robust and better function.
The ASA is just way to small and flimsy. Main reason I sold it.

Not sure why you think the larger JP handle is comical. Have you actually used either? How about with gloves or with sweaty hands? If so you will find the larger handle much easier to use. Not to mention on a large frame AR the extra leverage of the larger handle will be much appreciated.


^ so does that mean , it can be adjustable upto rifle length with right gas tube ?

kinda still new at meaning of adjustable gas block .. im thinking since it doesnt have to be pinned , it can be adjustable with right gas tube

No....adjustable gas blocks allow you to regulate the amount of gas to the bolt carrier regaurdless of gas tube length. The problem with shorter gas tubes is that is allows to much gas to the bolt carrier resulting in higher bolt velocity,etc.



Take care,Stan

IPSICK
07-02-2012, 9:21 AM
No, ASA's side charger fits any lower.

I like ASA's more than JPs, JPs is comically large IMO. Although JP kept the top charging with the side charging so that is pretty cool.

From the ASA website (text is hyperlinked):

Please Note:
Our Side Charging 308 Uppers are not intended to fit on either the DPMS or the Armalite 308 AR Platforms. Our 308 Uppers are designed specifically to fit onto our 308 Lowers please contact us with questions. (http://www.americanspiritarms.com/upper-receivers/asa-ar-15-m4-side-charger-upper-receiver-with-modified-carrier/)

So unless you've tried it yourself and the ASA website is wrong, they have no DPMS or Armalite compatible 308 side-charging uppers.

KillZone45
07-02-2012, 11:40 AM
260 isn't a boutique cartridge.

edit: you can get a 308 to perform like that but you have to push it hard. Maybe 2750fps+ for a 175 and 2950+ for a 155 palma and the costs are the same.

I'd bet the farm that you could set up a 260 rem AR w/20" Hbar type barrel and it would shoot just as well at long range as a 24-26" 308.

From what I have heard and understand the 260 has the same ballistics as the 300WM but with less energy on Target. So if that is indeed the case the 260 should absolutely kill an 308 setup for distance shooting.

hcbr
07-02-2012, 11:40 AM
FYI, I'm a side charging fan (have them all on my ar-15's , LAR OPS-4) , and if you wait, some of the guys there, including Zach and the sales people said they'll have one by the end of this year.

I just stuck on a normal upper for the time being, and will wait patiently :D

don't get me wrong, fulton is great, but having the same setup as my OPS-4 on my 308 build? awesome!

Josh3239
07-02-2012, 11:08 PM
Doh, missed .308. :banghead:

From the ASA website (text is hyperlinked):

Please Note:
Our Side Charging 308 Uppers are not intended to fit on either the DPMS or the Armalite 308 AR Platforms. Our 308 Uppers are designed specifically to fit onto our 308 Lowers please contact us with questions. (http://www.americanspiritarms.com/upper-receivers/asa-ar-15-m4-side-charger-upper-receiver-with-modified-carrier/)

So unless you've tried it yourself and the ASA website is wrong, they have no DPMS or Armalite compatible 308 side-charging uppers.

a-bomb13
07-03-2012, 12:14 AM
I love JP's stuff. Adcor is coming out with a 308 as well. Free floating piston system just sounds cool.

Josh3239
07-09-2012, 8:23 PM
Got to handle one today, I'll stick by my original comments about the charging handle. Otherwise a very very nice rifle. I actually prefered the REPR more.

G38xOC
07-09-2012, 8:26 PM
^ JP , right ?

is that the one ur going with ? complete upper ?

Josh3239
07-09-2012, 8:29 PM
That is the JP, not mine though.

G38xOC
07-09-2012, 8:34 PM
can someone explain between reciprocating upper and non ? from u guys statements , it seems JP is non-reciprocating .. and fulton isnt ?

Josh3239
07-09-2012, 8:53 PM
Recipricating moves with the bolt, attached in some way. Non-recipricating works like the "regular" top charging handle, it is free floating and held forward in place by the bolt group, not attached just pushed forward. I believe JP is non and Fulton does recipricate with bolt group.

G38xOC
07-09-2012, 9:20 PM
I see what you mean . TY