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The Right to Bear Arms
06-19-2012, 5:53 PM
the Saiga IZSL-332A

http://www.riflegear.com/p-1645-saiga-akm-style-converted-rifle-762x39.aspx

and the Arsenal SGL-21?

http://www.riflegear.com/p-926-arsenal-sgl21-saiga-762x39-rifle.aspx

or are the differences merely cosmetic ?


Thanks for your time, gentlemen.

R.B.A.

Chaos47
06-19-2012, 5:58 PM
Arsenal just converts Siagas.
That's just a Siaga converted by a different company

The Right to Bear Arms
06-19-2012, 6:03 PM
Arsenal just converts Siagas.
That's just a Siaga converted by a different company

So the specs should be the same, yea?

Thanks, Chaos47. The store left out some of the interesting specs on the IZSL-332. They're sold out of the SGL-31.

RBA

ps. Anyone know of any stores in So.Cal still carrying the SGL-31?

Chaos47
06-19-2012, 6:11 PM
Stats are the same because they originally they where the same rifles before the conversion.
Both started out as one of these
http://www.riflegear.com/images/Product/medium/803.jpg
http://www.riflegear.com/p-803-saiga-rifle-762x39.aspx

You could convert your own if you are handy...
Even easier to do now that they sell one that already has AK forward grips so you don't have to do that part of the conversion
http://www.riflegear.com/images/Product/medium/1425.jpg
http://www.riflegear.com/p-1425-saiga-rifle-762x39-with-standard-ak-forend.aspx

BTW a lot of people here are not fans of Arsenal because they feel they abandoned the CA market for a long time to then all of a sudden change their policy and come back. A lot of people don't like their proprietary magazine lock either. Personally I have no feelings towards them, but would be more apt to convert my own and save some bucks...

MrPlink
06-19-2012, 6:57 PM
Buying arsenal is like buy a Lego kit that is already built.

zfields
06-19-2012, 6:57 PM
BTW a lot of people here are not fans of Arsenal because they feel they abandoned the CA market for a long time to then all of a sudden change their policy and come back. A lot of people don't like their proprietary magazine lock either. Personally I have no feelings towards them, but would be more apt to convert my own and save some bucks...

They did a lot more then abandon the CA market.

Richard Erichsen
06-19-2012, 7:01 PM
the Saiga IZSL-332A

http://www.riflegear.com/p-1645-saiga-akm-style-converted-rifle-762x39.aspx

and the Arsenal SGL-21?

http://www.riflegear.com/p-926-arsenal-sgl21-saiga-762x39-rifle.aspx

or are the differences merely cosmetic ?


Thanks for your time, gentlemen.

R.B.A.

Furniture and conversion to pistol grip, that's all.

Build one instead, you'll thank us.

R

stix213
06-19-2012, 7:05 PM
Note that the above mentioned proprietary magazine lock is not on an SGL-21, but instead on the SGL-23. Arsenal also makes a lot of their own parts, so while the non-Arsenal probably uses the Tapco G2 trigger group, the Arsenal will have the Arsenal produced trigger.

I have an Arsenal SGL-21 and I'd have to say it is pretty top quality. There are lots of places another company could cut counters if they wanted.

For example Arsenal goes over little details like swapping out the stock 300 meter rear sight with a 1000 meter, while it appears that other one you linked didn't bother. Another thing, toward the rear of the rifle there are two holes left open toward the bottom of each side. On the Arsenal you don't see them anymore, because I think they reweld them and then refinish the receiver, while you can clearly see they just put some caps or something on the non-Arsenal. Little stuff like that adds up.

All that said, my favorite AK is the Saiga I converted myself. I get more enjoyment out of that one, and it was fun customizing it how I wanted it.

Dont_Shoot_im_Chinese
06-19-2012, 7:30 PM
If you buy a Saiga and convert it yourself, the cost difference will be very similar and you wont save much money because of time and effort. I also say that because people tend to leave out little details like the time it takes to make it, dril bits and parts, muzzle brake, rear sight, and etc. Saiga's will have holes that you will have to have plugs for while SGL's wont have them. another difference is that trigger area is slightly different if you remove the trigger guard and the trigger. both are very close. Youtube the conversion videos to see what im talking about. I'd pick up a Saiga and use whatever furniture parts to your liking

Dont_Shoot_im_Chinese
06-19-2012, 7:36 PM
my guess is that the SGL's didn't come to america as a fully functional rifle. Otherwise, what would Arsenal do with all the spare russian parts that they changed to their own

CSACANNONEER
06-19-2012, 7:41 PM
BTW a lot of people here are not fans of Arsenal because they feel they abandoned the CA market for a long time to then all of a sudden change their policy and come back. A lot of people don't like their proprietary magazine lock either. Personally I have no feelings towards them, but would be more apt to convert my own and save some bucks...

They did a lot more then abandon the CA market.

+1

If they had abandoned the CA market, most of us would have understood and respected theor decision while not agreeing with it. Instead, they took very proactive actions to keep anyone from shipping any of their products into CA. They have kept more legal firearms from entering CA than the entire anti-2A movement.

bighead
06-19-2012, 7:53 PM
I wonder if any of those who exhibit this childish disdain for Arsenal own anything made by Ruger.

REDdawn6
06-19-2012, 7:55 PM
to my knowledge , Arsenal does the conversion with better parts.

zfields
06-19-2012, 8:26 PM
I wonder if any of those who exhibit this childish disdain for Arsenal own anything made by Ruger.

You do realize The big man at ruger has passed, and the company is switched the way they market and target audience.

BHPFan
06-19-2012, 8:55 PM
You do realize The big man at ruger has passed, and the company is switched the way they market and target audience.

He must be really rolling in his grave with his company releasing the SR-556 lately. :D

zfields
06-19-2012, 9:02 PM
He must be really rolling in his grave with his company releasing the SR-556 lately. :D

I think he would really cry if he saw the new BX-25 10/22 mags

Richard Erichsen
06-19-2012, 9:21 PM
swapping out the stock 300 meter rear sight with a 1000 meter, while it appears that other one you linked didn't bother.

1000 meter sights on 'any' 7.62x39 mm weapon is an exercise in futility. Of all the modifications, this one has the least value in my opinion. I agree Arsenal trigger parts are superior to Tapco G2.

Another thing, toward the rear of the rifle there are two holes left open toward the bottom of each side. On the Arsenal you don't see them anymore, because I think they reweld them and then refinish the receiver, while you can clearly see they just put some caps or something on the non-Arsenal. Little stuff like that adds up.

That is correct, welded and refinished. However, a builder with some welding skills, a welder, a grinder and some enamel paint can do the same thing.

All that said, my favorite AK is the Saiga I converted myself. I get more enjoyment out of that one, and it was fun customizing it how I wanted it.

We agree. If you don't build the rifle yourself, take your time and convert it "properly" - it goes a long way to knowing the rifle in and out and 1/3 of the way to the experience of building one from scratch.

R

ainako
06-19-2012, 9:38 PM
So so these arsenals have bullet guides too? Just wondering

bighead
06-19-2012, 9:57 PM
You do realize The big man at ruger has passed, and the company is switched the way they market and target audience.

You do realize you are pointing out that companies are capable of changing policies?

The Right to Bear Arms
06-19-2012, 10:12 PM
Good Evening Gentlemen,

Nutnfancy was right. You can rely on the AK community being passionate about their platform. haha. Good for all of you. I'll be joining.

I learned more reading this thread than any other I've participated in.

R

postscript. May 7.62x39 always be available and accessible to all of us.

ClickClickPow
06-19-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm looking into my first AK platform rifle, its sounds like to me, if you are not sure what you want in an AK, but know you want one, the Saiga is a safer bet since your initial investment can be far less costly compared to arsenal. And with trigger time and research, you can pimp it out anyway you'd like. Is that a fair assessment?

Chaos47
06-19-2012, 10:29 PM
I'm looking into my first AK platform rifle, its sounds like to me, if you are not sure what you want in an AK, but know you want one, the Saiga is a safer bet since your initial investment can be far less costly compared to arsenal. And with trigger time and research, you can pimp it out anyway you'd like. Is that a fair assessment?

It's not as easy as slapping some new parts on
Parts, time, tools and some mechanical know how are going to be needed.

Look up converting a siaga, there are plenty of guides out there that will give you an idea of how much know how and tools you will need to do a conversion.

There's always prebuilt AK's such as WASRs that are ready to rock and roll..

zfields
06-19-2012, 10:48 PM
You do realize you are pointing out that companies are capable of changing policies?

One is due to the death of the person who created the bad policy

Vs

A company that decided that they wanted to make more money, and still limit what they will sell directly to CA residents. Take off their proprietary maglock, void all warranty. Not exactly CA friendly.

zfields
06-19-2012, 10:49 PM
Good Evening Gentlemen,

Nutnfancy was right. You can rely on the AK community being passionate about their platform. haha. Good for all of you. I'll be joining.


Possibly the only thing he has ever been correct on, and it still probably took him 12 minutes to say it.

nick
06-19-2012, 11:52 PM
Note that the above mentioned proprietary magazine lock is not on an SGL-21, but instead on the SGL-23. Arsenal also makes a lot of their own parts, so while the non-Arsenal probably uses the Tapco G2 trigger group, the Arsenal will have the Arsenal produced trigger.

I have an Arsenal SGL-21 and I'd have to say it is pretty top quality. There are lots of places another company could cut counters if they wanted.

For example Arsenal goes over little details like swapping out the stock 300 meter rear sight with a 1000 meter, while it appears that other one you linked didn't bother. Another thing, toward the rear of the rifle there are two holes left open toward the bottom of each side. On the Arsenal you don't see them anymore, because I think they reweld them and then refinish the receiver, while you can clearly see they just put some caps or something on the non-Arsenal. Little stuff like that adds up.

All that said, my favorite AK is the Saiga I converted myself. I get more enjoyment out of that one, and it was fun customizing it how I wanted it.

Tapco G2 is actually a better FCG than the Arsenal one. It's one of the few good things to come out of Tapco, and Arsenal dropped the ball on their FCG.

nick
06-19-2012, 11:55 PM
Good Evening Gentlemen,

Nutnfancy was right. You can rely on the AK community being passionate about their platform. haha. Good for all of you. I'll be joining.

I learned more reading this thread than any other I've participated in.

R

postscript. May 7.62x39 always be available and accessible to all of us.

You've no idea. My condolences on your future addiction.

bohoki
06-20-2012, 12:03 AM
which one leaves your brass looking like a double bottle neck

nick
06-20-2012, 12:05 AM
which one leaves your brass looking like a double bottle neck

Both. It's a feature of Saiga, and it doesn't go away with the conversion.

The Right to Bear Arms
06-20-2012, 12:12 AM
You've no idea. My condolences on your future addiction.

That's what I like to hear, Nick.

Dont_Shoot_im_Chinese
06-20-2012, 2:05 AM
If you are handy, just buy a saiga with the caliber of choice and piece it together yourself with the furniture you like.

bighead
06-20-2012, 2:14 AM
One is due to the death of the person who created the bad policy

Vs

A company that decided that they wanted to make more money, and still limit what they will sell directly to CA residents. Take off their proprietary maglock, void all warranty. Not exactly CA friendly.

So if the owner of Arsenal died and subsequently changed policies it would then be ok?

The absence of logic here is baffling.

The point is both companies made decisions that hurt gun owners.Both have changed regardless of reasoning.It's obviously time to move on.

zfields
06-20-2012, 2:44 AM
Do you seriously not understand the difference.

One company changes because of the death of the person who was against military / assault weapons, the other changes because there sales aren't high enough, and are still limiting what they sell in addition to having BS warranty support.

Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference, or are you just purposefully being hard headed.


Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk 2

bighead
06-20-2012, 9:09 AM
Ill try to make it simple.

Ruger made bad decisions but has since changed.

Arsenal made bad decisions but has since changed.

Time to move on.

Up next, in A show of gun manufacturer perfection, Gaston Glock walks on water.

Chaos47
06-20-2012, 10:23 AM
Up next, in A show of gun manufacturer perfection, Gaston Glock walks on water.

Yea probably not going to happen lol
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-glock-family-feud-01252012.html

Damn this thread went down hill fast, did I inspire it by bringing up arsenal or just predict it would happen from seeing previous threads...

Harrison_Bergeron
06-20-2012, 10:33 AM
The first gun he posted is a converted IZ-332, so it will have the factory 24mm threads on the barrel, that is a small difference.

CSACANNONEER
06-20-2012, 12:24 PM
Ill try to make it simple.

Ruger made bad decisions but has since changed.

Arsenal made bad decisions but has since changed.

Time to move on.

Up next, in A show of gun manufacturer perfection, Gaston Glock walks on water.

I'll make it simple. Ruger NEVER tried to keep their products out of CA. Arsenal launched a long proactive campaign to prevent any of their legal firearms from entering CA. They threatened to cut off any FFL found legally shipping their products to CA. Their anti 2A policies are responsible for keeping more legal firearms out if CA than the Brady bunch has.Anyone who supports Arsenal by buying their products should be ashamed of themselves.

hyeg35
06-20-2012, 1:31 PM
I chose to go with the already converted SGL-21 myself. Didn't think I had proper gunsmithing skills to do it myself. But after customizing my SGL, my next rifle will be fully built ground up, by me. Here are some pics of my SLG21, I have only recently added a Eotech 516.

http://i.imgur.com/eAS3Kl.jpg (http://imgur.com/eAS3K)

http://i.imgur.com/eATHMl.jpg (http://imgur.com/eATHM)

http://i.imgur.com/IOTJel.jpg (http://imgur.com/IOTJe)

http://i.imgur.com/cNCd0l.jpg (http://imgur.com/cNCd0)

4thSBCT
06-20-2012, 1:56 PM
this thread makes me sad

dbo31
06-20-2012, 1:59 PM
Just recently picked up an SGL21 not too long ago and love it the fit and finish are better than my other 2 AK's and its a bit more accurate but they all shoot pretty flawless. Its an AK..don't over think it.

dbo31
06-20-2012, 1:59 PM
Just recently picked up an SGL21 not too long ago and love it the fit and finish are better than my other 2 AK's and its a bit more accurate but they all shoot pretty flawless. Its an AK..don't over think it. I personally couldn't care less about Arsenal's policies in the past. I blame most of that on CA itself.

bighead
06-20-2012, 3:03 PM
I'll make it simple. Ruger NEVER tried to keep their products out of CA. Arsenal launched a long proactive campaign to prevent any of their legal firearms from entering CA. They threatened to cut off any FFL found legally shipping their products to CA. Their anti 2A policies are responsible for keeping more legal firearms out if CA than the Brady bunch has.Anyone who supports Arsenal by buying their products should be ashamed of themselves.

Bill Ruger Sr advocated trigger lock laws, magazine bans, waiting periods, and background checks not just for California, but for the entire United States.All of these actions were done by him to ultimately preserve profits.

I suppose we shall agree to disagree.Personally I will continue to purchase from both compainies without prejudice.

The end.

Brick562
06-20-2012, 4:01 PM
i was at Riflegear today, and looked at both the arsenal and the saiga, and....their new Serbian Zastava Ak. drool.....

I already own an unconverted saiga iz332, but if I was doing this over again, I would go with the Zastava. Surprised myself really. Hundred percent brand new, rock solid construction. Only annoyance was the dust cover second release button. Don't believe it fully serves any purpose.

Anywho, can't go wrong on any of them.

isplice
06-20-2012, 4:11 PM
Bill Ruger Sr advocated trigger lock laws, magazine bans, waiting periods, and background checks not just for California, but for the entire United States.All of these actions were done by him to ultimately preserve profits.

I suppose we shall agree to disagree.Personally I will continue to purchase from both compainies without prejudice.

The end.

I couldn't agree with you more! If a company changes their mind for the betterment of California gun owners, good for them and us. A large AR-15 manufacturer recently changed their branding so they could finally sell in California. Good for them too!

stix213
06-20-2012, 5:04 PM
1000 meter sights on 'any' 7.62x39 mm weapon is an exercise in futility. Of all the modifications, this one has the least value in my opinion. I agree Arsenal trigger parts are superior to Tapco G2.

My point wasn't that the 1000 meter sights were actually useful. My point was that it shows an extra attention to detail. A real AK-103 as used by Russian versions of SWAT, which the SGL-21 emulates, has a 1000 meter rear sight and it is nice to see Arsenal not skimping when they easily could.


That is correct, welded and refinished. However, a builder with some welding skills, a welder, a grinder and some enamel paint can do the same thing.


Yes, but the discussion is between the two rifles that the OP linked. I hope you weren't suggesting getting the non-arsenal complete rifle, disassembling the whole thing, and rewelding those holes. I doubt the OP is looking to do his own welding when deciding between two complete rifles.

Tapco G2 is actually a better FCG than the Arsenal one. It's one of the few good things to come out of Tapco, and Arsenal dropped the ball on their FCG.

The Saiga I converted myself has the Tapco G2 and is very broken in, which has a fairly light but not distinct or crisp trigger. I seriously can't tell when the trigger is going to break, because it doesn't increase in resistance for me as the trigger is pressed.

My Arsenal has a very distinct and crisp trigger by comparison, but requires a lot more force to fire. Maybe it is because I haven't even put 100 rounds through this gun yet, while my other has thousands, don't know yet. I actually prefer my Tapco G2 trigger over the Arsenal, but I could easily see others with the opposite opinion.

The Right to Bear Arms
06-20-2012, 5:22 PM
Damn this thread went down hill fast, did I inspire it by bringing up arsenal or just predict it would happen from seeing previous threads...

Roger that, sir. Ok, gentlemen. This is for everybody.

Let's keep it professional in here regardless of what you do for living or how much education you have.

You may not like a fellow Calgunner, what he posted, a company, what they did, etc.

However, we accomplish ( nothing ) when we turn on each other in threads like this.

AK47_trainedgirl
06-20-2012, 7:36 PM
In my military training in Vietnam, I handled AKM and in America I find the Saiga is equal to the AKM.

nick
06-20-2012, 11:16 PM
The Saiga I converted myself has the Tapco G2 and is very broken in, which has a fairly light but not distinct or crisp trigger. I seriously can't tell when the trigger is going to break, because it doesn't increase in resistance for me as the trigger is pressed.

My Arsenal has a very distinct and crisp trigger by comparison, but requires a lot more force to fire. Maybe it is because I haven't even put 100 rounds through this gun yet, while my other has thousands, don't know yet. I actually prefer my Tapco G2 trigger over the Arsenal, but I could easily see others with the opposite opinion.

I see. I can't say my G2 triggers are especially crisp - they aren't, but they're pretty decent for what they are. The best trigger I have is a Red Star Arms two-stage anyway. With that said, the Arsenal FCG that I tried (in my defense, it was cheap) ended in a spectacular failure. It was gritty to begin with, and the hook broke off the trigger during the first session (after, maybe, 20-30 rounds). Yep, it just broke off. When I called Arsenal's customer service, they seemed to be more interested in where I bought the FCG than in replacing it. I didn't know their stance on selling to CA at the time, so I could've outed the dealer who sold it, if I didn't get it off a Calgunner (brand new). Either way, the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth, and my opinion might be a tad biased. That is, discarding the fact that this was the only AK FCG that actually failed on me.