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View Full Version : PPT question I didn't know how to answer


BigJ
06-15-2012, 8:52 AM
I figured rather than spread FUD, I'd ask the fine CalGuns folks their opinion. Here's the question as it came up:

Dad lives in Reno and buys a handgun in late 2011. Dad dies early this year never having fired the gun. Son, a California resident, inherits Dad's gun and does not file the paperwork (he's not a gun guy at all, and didn't even realize there was paperwork to file 'till I mentioned it). Son wants nothing to do with the gun or any paperwork, and wants to sell the gun on.

He asked a local gun shop about selling to them, but they won't take it because its an off list handgun (it is legal to own here though). So now he's got a friend lined up and plans to PPT it at that shop.

My question was this: is there *any* chance Son can get into any trouble whatsoever with the State? Even though he's dead set against it, is the safest play to cool his jets and submit the paperwork first to the State so its in his name? Or could he get into trouble doing that too?

dantodd
06-15-2012, 9:31 AM
Just sell it. There is no law against selling a gun that is not registered to you. Any law broken by not filing the OpLaw form at the appropriate time is unaffected by the sale.

IrishPirate
06-15-2012, 9:34 AM
he's in the clear. If anything came up, it would come up registered to his deceased father, which would mean he obviously inherited it and is now selling it. Wouldn't raise any flags.

BigJ
06-15-2012, 9:50 AM
^^Since it was bought out of state, is it "registered"? I didn't think there was such a thing?

alfred1222
06-15-2012, 10:04 AM
^^Since it was bought out of state, is it "registered"? I didn't think there was such a thing?

As far as I know, there isn't. But like other members said, you don't have to be the registered owner of a handgun. For instance if my great grand uncle died, his wife could go to an FFL with a buyer and sell the guns

CHS
06-15-2012, 10:52 AM
He honestly has nothing to worry about. Just sell away.

Librarian
06-15-2012, 11:41 AM
^^Since it was bought out of state, is it "registered"? I didn't think there was such a thing?

Doesn't matter (but yes, handguns sold through CA FFLs are indeed registered.)

See the wiki articles:
inheritance -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Inheriting_firearms,_both_within_California_and_In terstate
PPT -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Private_Party_Transfer
registration -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Firearms_registration

BigJ
06-15-2012, 12:01 PM
Yes Sir. To rephrase the question he brought up thou: the gun is not registered in California since it was bought in NV and no paperwork to register it has been filed here. As I understand it and has been reiterated here, when he goes to sell it via PTT at a California FFL, he has nothing to worry about, correct?

Edit: got it. I see the pertinent section of the FAQ that confirms this and confirms no paperework is required. Thank you!

mrdd
06-15-2012, 1:24 PM
I assume that the son did not receive an HSC before he acquired the item, and no operation of law form was filed with California. Technically, several laws were broken. Who was the executor of the estate? The executor is responsible for distributing the assets of the estate according to law.

BigJ
06-15-2012, 1:33 PM
Indeed. As I understand it, however, what's done is done and at this point he's simply looking to unwind whatever ills may or may not have been committed. As I understand it, selling on the firearm via PPT at an FFL is the best simplest quickest way for him to move on.

Would you disagree with that?

CHS
06-15-2012, 2:28 PM
I assume that the son did not receive an HSC before he acquired the item, and no operation of law form was filed with California. Technically, several laws were broken. Who was the executor of the estate? The executor is responsible for distributing the assets of the estate according to law.

HSC's are required for dealer transfers and loans, but are they actually required by law for inheritances?

Federally, an interstate inheritance is allowed to bypass the FFL transfer requirement. Would not be surprised if CA law didn't require an HSC for an inheritance transfer.

But yes, the op law form was not submitted which was a previous crime. However, it doesn't really matter. The person is getting rid of the firearm and by using an FFL for the PPT is complying with the law. This will release any liability from the purchaser, which at this point is all that really matters.

mrdd
06-15-2012, 2:37 PM
HSC's are required for dealer transfers and loans, but are they actually required by law for inheritances?

Federally, an interstate inheritance is allowed to bypass the FFL transfer requirement. Would not be surprised if CA law didn't require an HSC for an inheritance transfer.

But yes, the op law form was not submitted which was a previous crime. However, it doesn't really matter. The person is getting rid of the firearm and by using an FFL for the PPT is complying with the law. This will release any liability from the purchaser, which at this point is all that really matters.

This is the exception to PPT for inheritance that seems to apply to the original transfer to the son, if the son was not the executor:

27875. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm, by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means from one individual to another, if all of the following requirements are met:

(a) The transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The transfer is between members of the same immediate family.

(c) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.

(d) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate, if the firearm is a handgun.

(e) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

ETA:

Subsection (c) is the requirement to file the oplaw form. Subsection (d) is the requirement for an HSC.

The OP has not stated who was the executor. If the son was the executor, this section probably applies since it seems that he actually took title (i.e. that it was left to him):

27925. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes possession of a firearm by operation of law in a representative capacity who subsequently transfers ownership of the firearm to himself or herself in an individual capacity.

(b) In the case of a handgun, the individual shall obtain a handgun safety certificate prior to transferring ownership to himself or herself, or taking possession of a handgun in an individual capacity.

mrdd
06-15-2012, 3:08 PM
Indeed. As I understand it, however, what's done is done and at this point he's simply looking to unwind whatever ills may or may not have been committed. As I understand it, selling on the firearm via PPT at an FFL is the best simplest quickest way for him to move on.

Would you disagree with that?

I agree that the best thing to do is find a buyer and transfer it via PPT. However, things were probably done wrong here, and that can not be undone.

In the grand scheme of things, probably not a big deal. The state really just wants it papered to someone.

BigJ
06-15-2012, 3:15 PM
Agreed completely. I hope this conversation isnt misunderstood by anyone; how he came by the gun was unfortunate. For many reasons, including (but probably the least of which is any) California law.

I'm glad to know the 'fix' is straight forward. In the end, the goal of the law will be satisfied and he can move on. Thanks for all the help guys.

dwtt
06-15-2012, 7:40 PM
Agreed completely. I hope this conversation isnt misunderstood by anyone; how he came by the gun was unfortunate. For many reasons, including (but probably the least of which is any) California law.

I'm glad to know the 'fix' is straight forward. In the end, the goal of the law will be satisfied and he can move on. Thanks for all the help guys.

Since I know there are others thinking the same thing, I'll mention the 700-lb gorilla in the room.
What kind of gun is it? How much does your friend want for it and where is he located?

There, I said it. :)